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  #101  
Old 03-18-2020, 11:50 AM
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Work together, you say? So if Sanders said "that's a bad pick, I say no" what should Biden respond?
He should say "take a hike, bucko". Sanders has no business dictating to the nominee of the party he is only part of for 1 year out of 4.
  #102  
Old 03-18-2020, 11:51 AM
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Exactly. If Sanders gave a shit about the Democratic Party as something other than a convenient vehicle for his own ambitions, maybe there'd be a case for him having a say in the veep nominee.
  #103  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:01 PM
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It's probably over, but Bernie doesn't hurt Biden's chances by staying in the race and pushing for progressive policies. ...
Yes he does hurt Biden, because Bernie and his Bros will keep attacking Biden, thus increasing trumps chances.
  #104  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:03 PM
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Sanders has no allies in Congress old enough or experienced enough to be VP. Four years ago the rumours were his VP pick if he got the nomination would have been Tulsi Gabbard. This time around he explicitly said his VP would have to be a mirror of himself in the agenda laid out rather than filling the void he has (foreign policy, legislative skill) or the old-fashioned balancing of the ticket.
  #105  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:05 PM
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He should say "take a hike, bucko". Sanders has no business dictating to the nominee of the party he is only part of for 1 year out of 4.
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Exactly. If Sanders gave a shit about the Democratic Party as something other than a convenient vehicle for his own ambitions, maybe there'd be a case for him having a say in the veep nominee.
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Yes he does hurt Biden, because Bernie and his Bros will keep attacking Biden, thus increasing trumps chances.
So iiandyiiii, still think you're "not pushing for anything that I think would turn off Biden supporters,"?

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-18-2020 at 12:06 PM.
  #106  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:06 PM
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Staying in the race isn't in conflict with pushing for influence with Biden. As long as he doesn't go hard negative,.....
Too Late!
  #107  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:12 PM
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Staying in the race isn't in conflict with pushing for influence with Biden. As long as he doesn't go hard negative,.....
Too Late!
  #108  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:18 PM
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Work together, you say? So if Sanders said "that's a bad pick, I say no" what should Biden respond?
In my opinion, they should have a long discussion and bring in their advisors and allies.
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Yes he does hurt Biden, because Bernie and his Bros will keep attacking Biden, thus increasing trumps chances.
I think Bernie dropping out prematurely will make this worse, not better. The best thing for Biden is if Bernie refrains from the hard negative attacks (as he has, even if some of the supporters not under his control have not) and gradually brings his supporters down to reality as much as possible. It may take longer than overnight. Luckily, we have many months until the convention.
  #109  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:21 PM
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So iiandyiiii, still think you're "not pushing for anything that I think would turn off Biden supporters,"?
I thought we were speaking of the compromise on VP. I believe there are multiple potential VP candidates out there that could meet this criteria.

Obviously, many Biden supporters will be upset that Bernie chose to oppose Biden and run for President. IMO the best chance for victory is for Bernie to drop out under his own terms, refrain from hard negative attacks prior to that (as he has), and for them to come together and compromise on VP and some other things that might increase the chances of appealing to Bernie supporters while not turning off Biden supporters (and I think there are lots of policies that qualify as well).
  #110  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:25 PM
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I thought we were speaking of the compromise on VP. I believe there are multiple potential VP candidates out there that could meet this criteria.
We are talking about that. Did you not see two posters quoted saying that letting Sanders help pick the VP was bullshit??
  #111  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:39 PM
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Staying in the race isn't in conflict with pushing for influence with Biden. As long as he doesn't go hard negative,.....
Too Late!
  #112  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:40 PM
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We are talking about that. Did you not see two posters quoted saying that letting Sanders help pick the VP was bullshit??
They appear to have a problem with the process. I believe that there's a good outcome that could appeal to both candidates' supporters. I believe that blowing off Sanders entirely would do more harm than good.

This is a strategy disagreement. It's not the end of the world. It's reasonable for some people to disagree on the best strategy to win. It's okay to disagree. We'll see what happens -- this discussion certainly doesn't affect the actual outcome.
  #113  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:43 PM
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.....


He already is. It's working. And in my understanding of polling, these policies are generally more popular than Biden's. So I think this is helping Biden's chances for the general.
Sanders spent millions of $$ on TV ads lying about Biden and SocSec. That cant be blamed on overzealous Berniebros, that came direct from Bernie

Remember, negative campaigning doesnt make people vote for you- it makes people not vote for the other guy.



The only thing sanders campaign is doing is helping trump.
  #114  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:50 PM
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Sanders spent millions of $$ on TV ads lying about Biden and SocSec. That cant be blamed on overzealous Berniebros, that came direct from Bernie
I disagree that these ads were lies. Biden is on record for having considered compromises that would have cut Social Security. I don't believe Biden wanted to cut them, but he did consider compromises that would have resulted in cuts. It's reasonable to point that out.

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The only thing sanders campaign is doing is helping trump.
I disagree. It's okay that sometimes Democrats will disagree on strategy.

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  #115  
Old 03-18-2020, 01:24 PM
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They appear to have a problem with the process. I believe that there's a good outcome that could appeal to both candidates' supporters. I believe that blowing off Sanders entirely would do more harm than good.

This is a strategy disagreement. It's not the end of the world. It's reasonable for some people to disagree on the best strategy to win. It's okay to disagree. We'll see what happens -- this discussion certainly doesn't affect the actual outcome.
You have basically called for negotiations between Biden and Sanders to select the VP. That is, ok, a "process" problem but it is not a strategy disagreement. It is disagreeing on whether Sanders gets to dictate strategy.

And you keep implying a false dichotomy. Biden is already not blowing off Sanders supporters. You are arguing that Biden must have long discussions with advisors and allies of Sanders before deciding. That's a big ask.
  #116  
Old 03-18-2020, 01:27 PM
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You have basically called for negotiations between Biden and Sanders to select the VP. That is, ok, a "process" problem but it is not a strategy disagreement. It is disagreeing on whether Sanders gets to dictate strategy.

And you keep implying a false dichotomy. Biden is already not blowing off Sanders supporters. You are arguing that Biden must have long discussions with advisors and allies of Sanders before deciding. That's a big ask.
Yes, it's a big ask. I think that this would maximize the chance of victory. I understand that some may disagree.
  #117  
Old 03-18-2020, 01:35 PM
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I disagree that these ads were lies. Biden is on record for having considered compromises that would have cut Social Security. I don't believe Biden wanted to cut them, but he did consider compromises that would have resulted in cuts. It's reasonable to point that out.



I disagree. It's okay that sometimes Democrats will disagree on strategy.
He never "considered" them. He called the Republicans bluff on reducing the debt by suggesting a across the board cut on everything, knowing full well the GOP wouldn't accept. He has always supported SocSec and does so now in his public platform.

It's called "politics" and that's why Biden will be a great President. He knows when to call the GOP bullshit.

And Politifact ruled them as "Mostly False'- i.e mostly lies.

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  #118  
Old 03-18-2020, 01:35 PM
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Yes, it's a big ask. I think that this would maximize the chance of victory. I understand that some may disagree.
You have no basis for thinking that. I haven't seen a single person say they'll vote for Biden only if he picks a Sanders appoved VP. Not even you. You're already voting for him.

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  #119  
Old 03-18-2020, 01:47 PM
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You have no basis for thinking that. I haven't seen a single person say they'll vote for Biden only if he picks a Sanders appoved VP. Not even you. You're already voting for him.
Actually, I've spoken to many Bernie supporters, online and in person. Some of them have said that they're waiting to see Biden's VP pick before deciding whether they'd vote for him in the general election. So I do indeed have basis for thinking this. I don't expect my own personal experience is enough to convince others, but this is a big part of why I believe it.
  #120  
Old 03-18-2020, 01:59 PM
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And how many of these "many" have voted regularly Dem in the past?
  #121  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:00 PM
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And how many of these "many" have voted regularly Dem in the past?
Many of them.
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  #122  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:17 PM
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Right. Remember how you said earlier that the "enthusiasm" argument had been disproved by recent results? Well, all you've done is retreat into a smaller part of that argument. The "fickle Sanders supporter" argument. I bet half of them would be happy with Gabbard.
  #123  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:25 PM
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Staying in the race isn't in conflict with pushing for influence with Biden. As long as he doesn't go hard negative, Bernie staying in doesn't hurt Biden at all. His (and my) enthusiasm argument has already been discredited by the results, but on the issues he's already moved Biden a lot. If more debates continues to move him, as well as giving Biden more much-needed debate practice, then that could be a great help.
If Bernie is going to insist on more debates, why stop at Bernie? Why not invite Gabbard? There comes a point at which this becomes a frivolous exercise.

It would be helpful if Sanders would approach Biden about having some forces join his campaign with the proviso that there are opportunities for forces loyal to Sanders to play key roles in his administration. Joe and Bernie ought to work together to agree in principle in terms of having some Sanders-leaning supporters as economic advisers and even cabinet members (i.e. Labor, Treasury, or Commerce, for instance).
  #124  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:27 PM
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Right. Remember how you said earlier that the "enthusiasm" argument had been disproved by recent results? Well, all you've done is retreat into a smaller part of that argument. The "fickle Sanders supporter" argument. I bet half of them would be happy with Gabbard.
Why does my different opinion bother you so much? Maybe I have good reasons for what I believe, just as you probably do. It's okay to disagree. Not the end of the world. We'll find out what happens in the coming months.
  #125  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:29 PM
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Staying in the race isn't in conflict with pushing for influence with Biden. As long as he doesn't go hard negative, Bernie staying in doesn't hurt Biden at all. His (and my) enthusiasm argument has already been discredited by the results, but on the issues he's already moved Biden a lot. If more debates continues to move him, as well as giving Biden more much-needed debate practice, then that could be a great help.
If Bernie is going to insist on more debates, why stop at Bernie? Why not invite Gabbard? There comes a point at which this becomes a frivolous exercise.

It would be helpful if Sanders would approach Biden about having some forces join his campaign with the proviso that there are opportunities for forces loyal to Sanders to play key roles in his administration. Joe and Bernie ought to work together to agree in principle in terms of having some Sanders-leaning supporters as economic advisers and even cabinet members (i.e. Labor, Treasury, or Commerce, for instance).

But if he insists on having debates and makes no efforts to cooperate with Biden, he's discouraging his supporters from voting. I expect that most of Sanders voters will support Biden anyway, but there are a number of Sanders supporters who see him as their only hope for the future and will need to be pushed to vote. Sanders also needs to dispel the notion that Biden can't get progressive legislation passed - Sanders knows that's not true. He's just feeling bent because there was a period when it looked like his revolution would succeed and he's having a hard time accepting that it's over.
  #126  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:36 PM
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Why does my different opinion bother you so much? Maybe I have good reasons for what I believe, just as you probably do. It's okay to disagree. Not the end of the world. We'll find out what happens in the coming months.
Your different opinion doesn't bother me it's your disdain for applying any rational analysis to your opinion that gets under my skin. The way your gut opinions always seem to align with your desires. The way you strongly imply for weeks that the "enthusiasm" argument demands Biden negotiate with Sanders but when it's disproven, it doesn't change your opinion in any way whatsoever. That bothers me.

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  #127  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:42 PM
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Your different opinion doesn't bother me it's your disdain for applying any rational analysis to your opinion that gets under my skin. The way your gut opinions always seem to align with your desires. The way you strongly imply for weeks that the "enthusiasm" argument demands Biden negotiate with Sanders but when it's disproven, it doesn't change your opinion in any way whatsoever. That bothers me.
Okay. I don't think any of this is correct about me, and is probably colored by your apparent personal dislike of me. If you want to continue talking about your personal feelings about me, I recommend you start a thread in the Pit.
  #128  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:48 PM
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There you go again. I told you what I disliked about you but you play obtuse. I don't have an "apparent personal dislike" I have an explicit dislike about the way you argue that I have spelled out. But golly, no time to think about it. Life's too short, right?
  #129  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:52 PM
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There you go again. I told you what I disliked about you but you play obtuse. I don't have an "apparent personal dislike" I have an explicit dislike about the way you argue that I have spelled out. But golly, no time to think about it. Life's too short, right?
But you're incorrect about me. What you're describing about the way I argue is inaccurate, and I suspect it's because you don't like me.

You can choose to believe I'm just lying and I'm bad or dishonest or whatever. But if you want an actual discussion, why not assume I'm honestly presenting my views, which come from reasonable beliefs and assumptions based on my own experiences? It really is possible for smart and decent people to discuss something honestly and reasonably but come to different conclusions, because they have different assumptions and experiences. You're choosing to assume the worst about me, but that's a choice you're making. You don't have to make it.
  #130  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:57 PM
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I suspect you only think I'm incorrect is because you like yourself. Or dislike me. Whatever.
  #131  
Old 03-18-2020, 02:59 PM
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I don't think this needs to veer any further into ad hominem. I disagree with iiandyiiii's conclusions but I don't think he's arguing in bad faith. He says there are Sanders supporters who are potentially persuadable Biden voters, given certain conditions, and I guess I have no reason to think he's not being truthful. But this is really all hypothetical until the Sanders campaign makes their immediate intentions known.
  #132  
Old 03-18-2020, 03:00 PM
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I suspect you only think I'm incorrect is because you like yourself. Or dislike me. Whatever.
I like you and the way you argue just fine!
  #133  
Old 03-18-2020, 03:04 PM
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I don't think this needs to veer any further into ad hominem. I disagree with iiandyiiii's conclusions but I don't think he's arguing in bad faith. He says there are Sanders supporters who are potentially persuadable Biden voters, given certain conditions, and I guess I have no reason to think he's not being truthful. But this is really all hypothetical until the Sanders campaign makes their immediate intentions known.
Thank you. Yes, this is all I'm saying. There's not really data either way, and I could certainly be wrong. I'm far less confident in how I feel now than I was a few weeks ago -- Biden's team is a lot better than I thought, and maybe I should just trust them. We'll see, but this is how I feel right now.
  #134  
Old 03-18-2020, 03:15 PM
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I like you fine too. But not the way you argue.
  #135  
Old 03-18-2020, 03:17 PM
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dp

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  #136  
Old 03-18-2020, 03:39 PM
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And in my understanding of polling, these policies are generally more popular than Biden's. So I think this is helping Biden's chances for the general.
As one Canadian PM used to say, «the only poll that counts is on Election Day.»

And Bernie’s policies have not resulted in a groundswell or support at the polls. That’s why this conversation is happening : because Biden, for whatever reason, has been more successful at the polls than Bernie and his policies.

If Bernie’s policies aren’t popular enough to put him in the lead amongst Democratic voters, what makes you think they’ll pull in more votes in the general?
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  #137  
Old 03-18-2020, 03:42 PM
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That's just it. Bernie's pitch isn't going to sell better with the general population than with the free healthcare loving Democrats. But Biden would be wise to be more like Bernie?

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  #138  
Old 03-18-2020, 03:43 PM
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If Bernie’s policies aren’t popular enough to put him in the lead amongst Democratic voters, what makes you think they’ll pull in more votes in the general?
You might be right. We'll see. Regardless, I hope it works out to defeat Trump.
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Old 03-18-2020, 04:07 PM
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He asked a question. He was asking for rational support for your opinion and you answer "You might be right. We'll see. " That kinda encapsulates what I was talking about.
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Old 03-18-2020, 04:18 PM
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He asked a question. He was asking for rational support for your opinion and you answer "You might be right. We'll see. " That kinda encapsulates what I was talking about.
Are you just looking for an argument? My feelings aren't terribly strong, especially because I know I've been wrong about some of it based on recent data. We're just talking here. I've said why I believed what I do, and I stand by it, but I don't believe it very strongly. Mostly just a feeling right now, but not a strong one. I don't think any of this (what is the most effective strategy to win an election) can be predicted with any accuracy, especially not by random internet people. But reasonable people can indeed disagree on strategy.

I enjoy arguing about political strategy, even though it's pretty much unknowable in advance. Thank you for taking part!

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  #141  
Old 03-18-2020, 05:07 PM
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Are you just looking for an argument?
No. I'm trying to show you what you argue like. Consider:
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Your different opinion doesn't bother me it's your disdain for applying any rational analysis to your opinion that gets under my skin.
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Okay. I don't think any of this is correct about me, and is probably colored by your apparent personal dislike of me.
followed by:
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If Bernie’s policies aren’t popular enough to put him in the lead amongst Democratic voters, what makes you think they’ll pull in more votes in the general?
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You might be right. We'll see. Regardless, I hope it works out to defeat Trump.
Just imagine for a second that what I think is based on what you actually do, not an apparent personal dislike.
  #142  
Old 03-18-2020, 05:19 PM
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Just imagine for a second that what I think is based on what you actually do, not an apparent personal dislike.
I've considered it, and your criticism of the way I argue is not accurate. It's possible for decent and smart people to disagree on what's "rational" and what counts as "analysis".

But why can't you just start a Pit thread about me if you're so interested in criticizing the way I post? If you feel so strongly, you must have lots of posts about me that you think would serve as evidence. Why is it so important that you focus on your problems with the way I post in this thread?

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  #143  
Old 03-18-2020, 05:27 PM
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No. I just gave a crystal clear example of my criticism and it doesn't even get a response from you. I'm not wasting my time on a Pit thread. The next time you want to pretend my objections are based on an apparent personal dislike, that's when you can start one yourself.

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-18-2020 at 05:28 PM.
  #144  
Old 03-18-2020, 05:32 PM
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No. I just gave a crystal clear example of my criticism and it doesn't even get a response from you.
It wasn't "crystal clear". As far as I can tell, you don't like that I don't feel terribly strongly, and thus sometimes I acknowledge that others' arguments are good ones. Why isn't it okay for me to take the fact that my prior position was at least partially disproved as evidence that my position isn't terribly strong, and thus acknowledge that there are good arguments against it? I think there are Bernie positions that are more popular than some of Biden's positions, based on some polling I've seen. But it is indeed a good argument against this that Bernie has been losing at the polls. Perhaps there are some positions that fit, and maybe those are the ones Biden has been shifting on.

Recognizing the weaknesses in my own position seems like pretty "rational analysis" to me, but apparently your mileage varies.

I still can't tell what it is you don't like, if it's not this. Sometimes I post my opinion, even if it's not a terribly strong opinion. Sometimes I recognize good arguments against my own opinion, and re-evaluate. Is that your objection? If so, why?

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  #145  
Old 03-18-2020, 05:40 PM
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Like I said, if you think this is personal then start a Pit thread. I'm just complaining that you don't even attempt to defend your hunches with facts.
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Old 03-18-2020, 05:41 PM
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I welcome criticism, by the way. That's the best way to improve. But I can't figure out your criticism, so far. It doesn't make sense to me.
  #147  
Old 03-18-2020, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Like I said, if you think this is personal then start a Pit thread.
Ha! They say imitation is the best form of flattery... I'm flattered!

Quote:
I'm just complaining that you don't even attempt to defend your hunches with facts.
When I feel strongly, I do. My strong hunch about enthusiasm was based on the facts of Bernie's fundraising and volunteering success. It looks like it was wrong, but those were the facts it was based on.

My less strong hunch about the best strategy to win the general is based on a handful of things, including some facts (like polling I remember on issues), but also anecdotal facts based on conversations and interactions I've had. And also just plain feelings. But I don't trust my own hunches as strongly as before.

And also, this is just shooting the shit. We're just talking here. It doesn't have to be so serious. Sometimes someone may not present things exactly in the way you like, and that's okay.

But thank you for the discussion. I enjoy these interactions!
  #148  
Old 03-18-2020, 05:56 PM
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Ok, we can stop now.
  #149  
Old 03-18-2020, 06:02 PM
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Ok, we can stop now.
Okay! Thanks for the criticism. Maybe one day I'll understand it and can use it to improve!
  #150  
Old 03-18-2020, 06:33 PM
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I disagree that these ads were lies. Biden is on record for having considered compromises that would have cut Social Security. I don't believe Biden wanted to cut them, but he did consider compromises that would have resulted in cuts. It's reasonable to point that out.
Whether or not you agree that they are lies you have to admit that they constitute Bernie going hard negative even after the fat lady had started warming up for her aria.
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