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  #151  
Old 03-21-2020, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
This post, in both style and substance, better resembles a conspiratorial screed than a good argument.

The answer to "why would Trump call it the Chinese virus?: has already been answered. He's deflecting blame. He has a stated enmity with China. He's doing exactly what China is doing in your post where they claim that the disease originated in the US.

The idea that the WHO is owned by China is straight out of a right wing conspiracy. They are part of the UN. They came up with this policy years ago because they noticed that naming viruses after places (same as naming them after animals) often led to incorrect assumptions.

Not calling it the Wuhan virus does not in any way deny that it started in Wuhan. Not calling it the Chinese virus does not in any way deny that it started in China. Every article about the virus or disease indicated it started in Wuhan, China. Renaming the virus would be a stupid way to try and hide that.

And then you ignore that the claim that it started in the US was new for China. China had previously admitted that it started in Wuhan. They were doing this back when the disease was named COVID-19. So, if the WHO was trying to hide the origin, they would have been going against what China wanted at that time.

Nothing in your small wall of text really holds up. There are better explanations that do, and they don't require any conspiracy between China and the WHO.
The WHO gets massive amounts of funding from the Chinese. They also get massive amounts of funding from the US, of course, but the US doesn't apply the type of pressure that the CCP does. I'm sorry that you haven't been paying attention and your knee is jerking, but anyone who has been awake at all in the past 2-3 years can pretty much see exactly how the CCP operates. One has but to look at the recent NBA fiasco about Hong Kong for an example that pretty much everyone should know about. Or, spend 5 minutes and see how the CCP applied pressure on global air line companies to change the designation of Taiwan. And compared to this, those are minor things. If they applied that sort of pressure to the NBA and air lines, why not the WHO, especially when they have the leverage?

The thing is, if you are going to be skeptical about something like this, you need to do a bit more research than you have apparently put in. You don't see any motive for why the WHO might be doing and saying what the CCP want, but that shows your massive ignorance on the subject. The WHO has been accused of fairly large scale corruption for a while, not just by right wingers. This is mainly at the top and in it's administration. The money China pours into the organization is reason enough for why the WHO is doing what it's doing. Now, if you want to say that isn't happening, that's fine. I'd love to see some data you base that on. As for why the CCP would want or even need the WHO, again, there is plenty plausible for that too.

As for Trump trying to deflect, that is certainly part of it, and I never said differently. He fucked up...by the numbers. The reason the disease is pretty much out of control in the US at this point is because he fucked around, doing his usual chaos thing and whatever time we could have had to prepare was squandered. That said, you can pretty well track when he started doing his 'Wuhan virus' and 'Chinese virus' schtick, and that coincided pretty well with when the Chinese started to shift the narrative and directly or indirectly attempt to say this call came from the US. Again, sorry you haven't been paying attention...honestly, it's probably not your fault because most main stream media sources aren't even touching this, and, again, seem to be drinking from the CCP kool-aide. I'm getting a lot of this from places like China Uncensored and the notorious pro-American site Al Jazeera English, who have both run plenty of pieces on it. I'd love to show you main stream media cites that you need to convince you, but, frankly, I don't give a good god damned in trying to convince you or anyone here. You will think it's a CT until this starts to get more coverage in the regular press, and not before. And since the CCP does similar shit to what they did with the NBA, Hollywood, several EU countries that took belt and road money, myriad politicians in many western countries, the WHO and...well, the list goes on and on...it's highly unlikely you ever will. Fine by me. I won't bother to link to the info I've seen as I know it won't pass muster for anyone here...and I know few, if any will even bother with looking at it anyway.

This thing with the CCP has been ongoing for a long time. People simply aren't paying attention. What's sad, to me, is folks KNOW that the CCP deliberately was stifling the information early on, and they allowed this outbreak to spread massively. They arrested people (they actually continue to do so) trying to get the word out, deliberately didn't tell their own health care workers, got the WHO to sit on this repeatedly, shunned the CDC when we offered to go there and then turned around and said the US didn't even try and help early on, and basically fucked up in every way you can on something like this. Which is why this thing is a global pandemic (something the WHO resisted calling it for a long time). The CCP was directly to blame for that. Yet, you don't really hear much about any of this in the news. Why? Any other country that did what the CCP did would be being roasted for the massive impact this is having world wide, for the rising death toll. But the CCP is coming out of this smelling like a rose. They have managed to turn this whole thing around from massive fuckup to China Saves the World(tm...arr)!! How? You don't know, and you don't care, and you aren't even trying to find out. You post some bullshit about this all being a CT with zero thought, and clearly zero knowledge of even the basics of what's happening. Hell, I could shoot more holed in my own narrative and I'm pretty sure what I'm saying is correct.

If you are going to be a skeptic then BE a skeptic. Learn something about this. Dig a bit deeper. THEN come back and tell me why and how I'm wrong. Hell, maybe you'll convince me. If not, and I'm just a nutty CTer then you can fight ignorance for those who are as clueless as you are on this right now. Plus, you will learn some stuff. So, everyone wins.
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Last edited by XT; 03-21-2020 at 11:35 AM.
  #152  
Old 03-21-2020, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I clicked the links above; the claim that China blames U.S. for the coronavirus appears to be absurdly wrong. What gives? XT?

Another news article did draw a connection between America's media and China:
Sure. Let's see, a quick search on China blames the US for coronavirus:

The Atlantic

New York Times

NBC News (this one is a bit of a surprise)

MarketWatch

This is just a small sample (which I pretty much picked at random, just to demonstrate that you can just Google this stuff if you want to really even dip a toe in). There are tons of articles on this, though most probably won't get on the radar or even be acceptable to most 'dopers. And for everyone one of those, there are ones like this.
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  #153  
Old 03-21-2020, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by XT View Post
Sure. Let's see, a quick search on China blames the US for coronavirus:

The Atlantic

New York Times

NBC News (this one is a bit of a surprise)

MarketWatch

This is just a small sample (which I pretty much picked at random, just to demonstrate that you can just Google this stuff if you want to really even dip a toe in). There are tons of articles on this, though most probably won't get on the radar or even be acceptable to most 'dopers. And for everyone one of those, there are ones like this.
I clicked only 2 of your 5 links. (There is an SDMB tradition that you excerpt from articles you want Dopers to read.)

Your first link has zero to support your claim except its own link to your 2nd link. But I fired up my No-Javascript-Browser just to read N.Y. Times. That article DOES confirm your claim ... sort of:
Quote:
[sgs7 emphasis]
The intentional spreading of an unfounded conspiracy theory — which recirculated on China’s tightly controlled internet on Friday — punctuated a downward spiral in relations between the two countries that has been fueled by the basest instincts of officials on both sides....

Mr. Zhao’s posts appeared to be a retort to similarly unsubstantiated theories about the origins of the outbreak that have spread in the United States. Senior officials there have called the epidemic the “Wuhan virus,” and at least one senator hinted darkly that the epidemic began with the leak of a Chinese biological weapon.
So what are we left with? Finger-pointing to see who started it — a Chinese functionary or Donald J. Trump, Leader of the Free World?

Is China (or "the CCP" as you insist on putting it) at least as despicable as the U.S.A.? Sure! At least until the U.S.A. was taken over by "the Trump Organization."
BTW, did you ever address my question up-thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus
I'm curious whether you'd acknowledge that the U.S.A. has also misused its military, economic, diplomatic and intelligence powers over the past seven decades to repress or to gain advantage over other countries? If lists of misdeeds were compiled, is it clear which country would show as worse?
  #154  
Old 03-21-2020, 12:38 PM
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China could have acted earlier. The US should have acted earlier, and now a lot more people in the US are going to get sick, die and not least of which torpedo our economy.

Wuhan went into a hard quarantine on 23 January, which is almost 2 months ago. War time President knew long before the experts that this would be an epidemic should have started preparing for the battle instead of only a propaganda ploy of shutting down travel from China.

Last edited by China Guy; 03-21-2020 at 12:40 PM.
  #155  
Old 03-21-2020, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I clicked only 2 of your 5 links. (There is an SDMB tradition that you excerpt from articles you want Dopers to read.)

Your first link has zero to support your claim except its own link to your 2nd link. But I fired up my No-Javascript-Browser just to read N.Y. Times. That article DOES confirm your claim ... sort of:


So what are we left with? Finger-pointing to see who started it — a Chinese functionary or Donald J. Trump, Leader of the Free World?

Is China (or "the CCP" as you insist on putting it) at least as despicable as the U.S.A.? Sure! At least until the U.S.A. was taken over by "the Trump Organization."
BTW, did you ever address my question up-thread?
Shrug. I told you I picked them at random. Also, it's not just some functionary, and the Chinese system doesn't work like the US wrt some flunky speaking off the cuff and spouting something that the rest of the government doesn't agree with. If that was the case, the guy would have been shut down...hard. In addition, you skipped the state run media part. Again, it doesn't work like US or any other western media, in that it doesn't say things the government doesn't want them to say...or, again, they get shut down. Hard. I can find you more articles if you like, but as I said there are plenty. Not sure about this SDMB tradition you refer too...I usually skimmed even the craziest CTers links, for laughs if nothing else. You can do what you like.

As for the past bit, the CCP IS China....just ask them. This isn't the Chinese people doing this, it's their fucking government. There really is no comparison between the US and the CCP. Fuck up that our government generally is, it's not in the same universe of despicable as the CCP is, and it's laughable to even try and compare them unless you are either deluded or completely ignorant.

As to your question:

Quote:
I'm curious whether you'd acknowledge that the U.S.A. has also misused its military, economic, diplomatic and intelligence powers over the past seven decades to repress or to gain advantage over other countries? If lists of misdeeds were compiled, is it clear which country would show as worse?
Do I acknowledge that the US has fucked up, done stupid or even evil shit? Certainly. I think that the list of misdeeds by the US is nothing compared to even the very evil shit the CCP has done in the last decade. The real difference is that the CCP gets a pass by nearly everyone, even when they KNOW what they are doing is incredibly evil. Again, it's hard to even take a comparison seriously, as it shows either a hand wave of what the CCP does on a regular basis (we won't even get into the truly horrific historic shit they did for their history starting in 1949, just the recent evil shit for, oh, say the last 2 decades) or just pure ignorance and heads buried in the sand. That's kind of what I see on this issue under discussion. Most people seem to be completely clueless of what's going on, or how the media they listen too, the politicians and institutions they trust and the information they get is being manipulated by the CCP. It's a lot more pervasive than people seem to think or realize, so they are thinking this is just some nutty right winger conspiracy. And I, who apparently am both a Trump supporter and a right winger saying this has zero credibility.

That's kind of why I haven't bothered with a ton of cites when I'm asked stuff like you asked. I did that more for laughs and to see what you'd say or do...or what other posters would. The fact that several CCP officials or 'medical professionals' have made these accusations about the US has gone nearly unnoticed or, more accurately unnoted, as we have stuff like that all the time, with off the wall politicians saying or doing stupid or contrary stuff. Hell, or President contradicts HIMSELF. But China and the CCP don't work like the US government, or any other western government. It's more like the North Korean government in how it operates...just with vastly more money and power. But people don't think about it that way, they think that the CCP and China are just like us and work just like us, or very similar to us. They don't. So, it IS a big deal when their state run media says something, or when a CCP official says something like that, as it's not just some flunky or contrary news article, it's either implicitly or tacitly approved by the inner counsel and Xi. There are, of course, factions in the CCP, and some of those are certainly opposed to Xi and his faction, but when THEY do stuff to make Xi look bad or seem to contradict him it's much more subtle. If they did this and Xi didn't like it, those people would disappear or be on show trial or 'house arrest' the next day, and the state run media would be falling over themselves to condemn and re-work the narrative.
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  #156  
Old 03-21-2020, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by China Guy View Post
China could have acted earlier. The US should have acted earlier, and now a lot more people in the US are going to get sick, die and not least of which torpedo our economy.

Wuhan went into a hard quarantine on 23 January, which is almost 2 months ago. War time President knew long before the experts that this would be an epidemic should have started preparing for the battle instead of only a propaganda ploy of shutting down travel from China.
The first instances of the disease were in November. Health care workers in China were concerned by late November and were trying to get the word out in December. They were shut down. People trying to say anything about it were shut down. Locally, CCP officials went so far as to encourage folks to do community activities together. There were CCP and state media people saying there was no issue at all. They covered this up until, basically, they couldn't any more. It was too big. During that time, people who were infected went all through China, and to pretty much every belt and road country, as well as a lot of other countries, and spread this thing far and wide. By January it was already out and spreading fast. THEN the CCP was forced to do your 'hard quarantine'. Which was way too late to contain the outbreak. And it was all because the CCP didn't want it to happen, knew it would hurt China's economy and so tried to cover it up.

Certainly the US fucked up for our part. Trump et al were too busy playing stupid political games and denying it themselves. No one rode herd on the CDC and they tried to do their own test kits that would test for not just this virus but related ones. Which was a major fail. Then the kits were delayed and not in the pipeline when our own outbreaks started to get big.

The difference, however, is that the US wasn't the initial outbreak. Instead, we had it basically everywhere. Look at a map of the US wrt the trajectory of the outbreak. Both coasts and several large areas in the interior. In China, you can track a similar trajectory and see it spread out from one area (Wuhan) and then across China...and to basically everywhere Chinese people go, which is pretty much world wide. And the reason is because from the first outbreak until your January 23rd date, the CCP sat on this and allowed it to spread. The WHO played along, even condemning countries that tried to put in travel restrictions from China. Of course, by the time countries realized this thing was out and spreading fast it was really too late anyway.
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  #157  
Old 03-21-2020, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by orcenio View Post
Oh and your own citations seem to have the exact same weaselly misleading problem I pointed out for the clipped video.
All seem to be referencing the outbreak IN China, while Trump's usage seem to solely be based on an exercise of obfuscation and political distraction.
They absolutely will not acknowledge the distinction between natural-language reference to things happening _in_ a region, and forced-language reference to a phenomenon by its geographic origin.

This is why we should not have debates with Trump supporters or their ilk. There is only fighting. Not talking.
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  #158  
Old 03-21-2020, 02:03 PM
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>The USA has disappeared no doctors who spoke out. Unless you have a US doctor who was told by the authorities to stop making false comments, like Li Wenliang? Has the US expelled any foreign journalists? Hating Trump is no excuse to post such a false equivalency.

Trump has fired and gutted our pandemic response experts, continues to dismiss the advice of experts in his administration, has held up testing because he thinks having a lower number of confirmed cases makes him look better, wanted to keep cruise ships stranded at sea to keep numbers down, claims the test kits WHO has made available are "bad" and inferior to the ones he has a financial stake in, continues to lie about the availability of tests, calls reporters "nasty" for asking him hard questions about his response and denied them access, tells the states they're on their own because he's "not a shipping clerk", has tried to blame Obama for his own actions, and continues to pretend that everything is fine, there's nothing to worry about, and his response has been "perfect".
People were reassigned, not fired; expert advice is conflicting but not ignored, cite, what was your solution to the disease on cruise ships?, cite, cite, so what, the states DO have more power than the Prez in many areas, and some opinions you hold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
>The narrative that he has done nothing is the hoax, not that the disease is a hoax. Calling it "China virus" is a pushback against China stating it came from Americans.

So your argument is "HE STARTED IT!", then?
No. It is a response to the lies, coverups, and influence the Chinese Communist Party is giving the world.
  #159  
Old 03-21-2020, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by XT View Post
Do I acknowledge that the US has fucked up, done stupid or even evil shit? Certainly. I think that the list of misdeeds by the US is nothing compared to even the very evil shit the CCP has done in the last decade.
Uh, now that is going the other way. Again, Chinese rulers were incompetent and did evil in arresting the early whistleblowers, and that is not a good or logical reason to minimize what it is happening in the USA.

A long time ago I pointed to that kind of argument that looks at the worst in others to minimize the gross and bad things happening in the USA as a "Susanita argument"

One very famous Latin American cartoonist, Quino, had one a comic strip called Mafalda. Where Susanita (the very rich and conservative girl) told Mafalda that she always looked at news and reports about what very bad people were doing to others in other places in the world. So she felt glad and good living in Argentina (While the dirty war was going on).

The point Mafalda made (actually the great Cartoonist Quino) was:

"That is not good Susanita, you have to compare to others that are better than you, not with the ones that are worse so as to become a better person"

I'm paraphrasing there, and then Susanita told to Mafalda:

"C'mon, who would do such a dirty move* to oneself!"

And the moral of the strip was very clear, Susanita was the one with the dumb point, it is not perfect to look at the worst nations and come with our shortcomings as mostly inconsequential. We should be looking at what the best efforts of nations that are doing better with this pandemic; of course, many supporters of Trump think that doing that is nasty or bad reporting.
  #160  
Old 03-21-2020, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
Of COURSE calling COVID-19 "the Chinese virus" isn't racist and doesn't promote racism. People in Europe and the Americas being beaten and shunned because they're suspected of being Asian - just ignore that. Only flukes.
If you were paying attention you would know that COVID-19 is the disease; the virus is 'severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2' (SARS-CoV-2). Quite a mouthful. In a verbal communication, 'Chinese virus' works better.

'Suspected of' being Asian? Yeah? Who is being beaten and shunned? That is one crazy post.

A few weeks ago there was a local story that business in Chinese restaurants was down and it might be due to fears of the Wuhan virus. In San Francisco, the only county in the USA with a plurality Chinese descended population. And the article did not ask whether ALL restaurants saw a drop in business because of SARS-2 worries.

Beaten and shunned? If this was even happening, do you think people would forget where the epicenter is if Trump was your puppet?
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Old 03-21-2020, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
If you were paying attention you would know that COVID-19 is the disease; the virus is 'severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2' (SARS-CoV-2). Quite a mouthful. In a verbal communication, 'Chinese virus' works better.
Not really COVID-19 is it. “coronavirus disease 2019” or simply Coronavirus is the way for the CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
'Suspected of' being Asian? Yeah? Who is being beaten and shunned? That is one crazy post.

A few weeks ago there was a local story that business in Chinese restaurants was down and it might be due to fears of the Wuhan virus. In San Francisco, the only county in the USA with a plurality Chinese descended population. And the article did not ask whether ALL restaurants saw a drop in business because of SARS-2 worries.

Beaten and shunned? If this was even happening, do you think people would forget where the epicenter is if Trump was your puppet?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/us/co...ans/index.html
Quote:
What's spreading faster than coronavirus in the US? Racist assaults and ignorant attacks against Asians
  #162  
Old 03-21-2020, 02:45 PM
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Uh, now that is going the other way. Again, Chinese rulers were incompetent and did evil in arresting the early whistleblowers, and that is not a good or logical reason to minimize what it is happening in the USA.
Except I didn't. Your are conflating two different arguments and attacking me for something that wasn't even about the coronavirus response. What you quoted there was general evil shit the CCP has done, which didn't include coronavirus, verse general even shit the US has done. What the CCP did in the early coronavirus was certainly stupid and evil, short sighted and a total fuckup, but you are right...that doesn't minimize or deflect from the fuckups the US has done wrt to our own outbreak. Which I wasn't doing.

I will say that in the case of the US fuckup, it's landing squarely on us, while the Chinese CCP fuckup is pretty much a fucking world wide disaster which we still don't know the extent of the damage it's going to do. But, again, what you quoted there had zero to do with this argument, nor was I minimizing what is happening in the US or the scale or scope of our political fuckups, many (hell most) of which are squarely on our orange haired leader and his administration.
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  #163  
Old 03-21-2020, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by XT View Post
Except I didn't. Your are conflating two different arguments and attacking me for something that wasn't even about the coronavirus response. What you quoted there was general evil shit the CCP has done, which didn't include coronavirus, verse general even shit the US has done. What the CCP did in the early coronavirus was certainly stupid and evil, short sighted and a total fuckup, but you are right...that doesn't minimize or deflect from the fuckups the US has done wrt to our own outbreak. Which I wasn't doing.
Overall I agree with you there, the nit was indeed by mentioning that the misdeeds of the US as almost nothing compared to that, of course you were referring to other horrible things China has done, but that is also why I pointed at the "Susanita fallacy", as in the bad things other nations do is not really the point here, it is a valid one, just not really for this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
I will say that in the case of the US fuckup, it's landing squarely on us, while the Chinese CCP fuckup is pretty much a fucking world wide disaster which we still don't know the extent of the damage it's going to do. But, again, what you quoted there had zero to do with this argument, nor was I minimizing what is happening in the US or the scale or scope of our political fuckups, many (hell most) of which are squarely on our orange haired leader and his administration.
Speaking of fuckups, one should notice that even regarding China, the "simpatico" act of Trump towards other dictators was a factor too on the US fuckup:

https://digbysblog.net/2020/03/their...e-his-was-not/
Quote:
Some of Trump’s advisers told him that Beijing was not providing accurate numbers of people who were infected or who had died, according to administration officials. Rather than press China to be more forthcoming, Trump publicly praised its response.

“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus,” Trump tweeted Jan. 24. “The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”


Quote:
Some of Trump’s advisers encouraged him to be tougher on China over its decision not to allow teams from the CDC into the country, administration officials said.

In one February meeting, the president said that if he struck a tougher tone against Xi, the Chinese would be less willing to give the Americans information about how they were tackling the outbreak.

Trump on Feb. 3 banned foreigners who had been in China in the previous 14 days from entering the United States, a step he often credits for helping to protect Americans against the virus. He has also said publicly that the Chinese weren’t honest about the effects of the virus. But that travel ban wasn’t accompanied by additional significant steps to prepare for when the virus eventually infected people in the United States in great numbers.
  #164  
Old 03-21-2020, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by XT View Post
The first instances of the disease were in November. Health care workers in China were concerned by late November and were trying to get the word out in December. They were shut down. People trying to say anything about it were shut down. Locally, CCP officials went so far as to encourage folks to do community activities together. There were CCP and state media people saying there was no issue at all. They covered this up until, basically, they couldn't any more. It was too big. During that time, people who were infected went all through China, and to pretty much every belt and road country, as well as a lot of other countries, and spread this thing far and wide. By January it was already out and spreading fast. THEN the CCP was forced to do your 'hard quarantine'. Which was way too late to contain the outbreak. And it was all because the CCP didn't want it to happen, knew it would hurt China's economy and so tried to cover it up.
Quote:
And the reason is because from the first outbreak until your January 23rd date, the CCP sat on this and allowed it to spread. The WHO played along, even condemning countries that tried to put in travel restrictions from China. Of course, by the time countries realized this thing was out and spreading fast it was really too late anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Daily Beast
The talking points appear to have originated in the National Security Council. One section of the cable reads “NSC Top Lines: [People’s Republic of China] Propaganda and Disinformation on the Wuhan Virus Pandemic.”

“Chinese Communist Party officials in Wuhan and Beijing had a special responsibility to inform the Chinese people and the world of the threat, since they were the first to learn of it,” the cable reads. “Instead, the... government hid news of the virus from its own people for weeks, while suppressing information and punishing doctors and journalists who raised the alarm. The Party cared more about its reputation than its own people’s suffering.”

...

“These talking points are all anyone is really talking about right now,” one official said. “Everything is about China. We’re being told to try and get this messaging out in any way possible, including press conferences and television appearances.”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-...a=twitter_page

...we are in the middle of a propaganda war. But the problem isn't Chinese propaganda (which is targeted at a domestic Chinese audience) but American propaganda which is targeted at the Domestic American audience.

Does it bother you at all that the positions you have put forward in this thread to claim that "no, calling it the Chinese Virus is not racist" almost exactly mirror the talking points issued by the Trump administration?

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Originally Posted by XT View Post
The WHO gets massive amounts of funding from the Chinese. They also get massive amounts of funding from the US, of course, but the US doesn't apply the type of pressure that the CCP does. I'm sorry that you haven't been paying attention and your knee is jerking, but anyone who has been awake at all in the past 2-3 years can pretty much see exactly how the CCP operates. One has but to look at the recent NBA fiasco about Hong Kong for an example that pretty much everyone should know about. Or, spend 5 minutes and see how the CCP applied pressure on global air line companies to change the designation of Taiwan. And compared to this, those are minor things. If they applied that sort of pressure to the NBA and air lines, why not the WHO, especially when they have the leverage?

The thing is, if you are going to be skeptical about something like this, you need to do a bit more research than you have apparently put in. You don't see any motive for why the WHO might be doing and saying what the CCP want, but that shows your massive ignorance on the subject. The WHO has been accused of fairly large scale corruption for a while, not just by right wingers. This is mainly at the top and in it's administration. The money China pours into the organization is reason enough for why the WHO is doing what it's doing. Now, if you want to say that isn't happening, that's fine. I'd love to see some data you base that on. As for why the CCP would want or even need the WHO, again, there is plenty plausible for that too.
Hot tip: when defending yourself against accusations of peddling a conspiracy theory it does not work in your favour to accuse those asking you for evidence of your claims of "massive ignorance", of not being "awake at all in the past 2-3 years", and yet still continuing not to provide any evidence. BigT didn't get anything wrong. Nothing in your big wall of text did hold up. And this current wall of text adds nothing to what you previously wrote.
  #165  
Old 03-21-2020, 07:47 PM
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The WHO coverup for the People's Republic of China:

"We appreciate the seriousness with which China is taking this outbreak, especially the commitment from top leadership, and the transparency they have demonstrated," Tedros said, in comments that would be repeatedly quoted in China's state media for weeks.

The WHO continues to lavishly praise China as they continued to downplay the threat of the coronavirus, taking months to classify it finally as a pandemic because that “might spook the world further.”

Tedros has bent over backward to stay on friendly terms with the emerging superpower.

Tedros was elected to his position with the WHO in 2017, despite the fact that he was not trained as a medical doctor and had no global health management experience. A former minister of health and minister of foreign affairs for Ethiopia, Tedros is an executive member of the Tigray People’s Liberation Front (TPLF) political party, which came to power through a struggle in 1991 and has been listed as a perpetrator in the Global Terrorism Database. After he became the WHO’s chief, critics questioned Tedros’s attempt to appoint then-Zimbabwe dictator Robert Mugabe as a WHO goodwill ambassador.
  #166  
Old 03-21-2020, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
The WHO coverup for the People's Republic of China:

"We appreciate the seriousness with which China is taking this outbreak, especially the commitment from top leadership, and the transparency they have demonstrated," Tedros said, in comments that would be repeatedly quoted in China's state media for weeks.

The WHO continues to lavishly praise China as they continued to downplay the threat of the coronavirus, taking months to classify it finally as a pandemic because that “might spook the world further.”

Tedros has bent over backward to stay on friendly terms with the emerging superpower.

Tedros was elected to his position with the WHO in 2017, despite the fact that he was not trained as a medical doctor and had no global health management experience. A former minister of health and minister of foreign affairs for Ethiopia, Tedros is an executive member of the Tigray People’s Liberation Front (TPLF) political party, which came to power through a struggle in 1991 and has been listed as a perpetrator in the Global Terrorism Database. After he became the WHO’s chief, critics questioned Tedros’s attempt to appoint then-Zimbabwe dictator Robert Mugabe as a WHO goodwill ambassador.
...can you explain to me what this has to do with the subject of the OP?

Do the alleged actions of Tedros and/or WHO make Trumps comments any less of a racist dogwhistle?
  #167  
Old 03-21-2020, 09:15 PM
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Let's focus on the US of A getting to a good healthy spot fighting our own war.

Don't need no dog whistles, don't need a Pravda propaganda daily briefing from our erstwhile president. We do need everyone to take this shit seriously, ramp up testing, don't over burden the system, and get thru this.

US is now at 25,000 cases and China 81,000. Let's show those Chinese that the US can have less infections instead of playing some stupid ass blame game at this stage.

Last edited by China Guy; 03-21-2020 at 09:17 PM.
  #168  
Old 03-21-2020, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Chingon View Post
Well, why do you think the White House and conservative media insists on calling it the Chinese or Wuhan virus even though it has another name that is much more widely established?
Probably for the same reason why they did everything during this crisis. They think it helps their election chances and they don't really care about the other consequences of their actions beyond how it affects November 2020.

They want people to remember that this virus originated in China but forget that we all got sick and many of us died because Trump was whistling past the graveyard until the bottom fell out of the market.
  #169  
Old 03-21-2020, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by China Guy View Post
China could have acted earlier. The US should have acted earlier, and now a lot more people in the US are going to get sick, die and not least of which torpedo our economy.

Wuhan went into a hard quarantine on 23 January, which is almost 2 months ago. War time President knew long before the experts that this would be an epidemic should have started preparing for the battle instead of only a propaganda ploy of shutting down travel from China.
Shutting down travel with China probably bought us a month. We squandered it but we bought a month with it nonetheless. that is why Italy is so much worse off than we are right now.

This might end up colloquially being called the China virus but i doubt it. But the outdoor tents that we eventually use to treat patients in hospital parking lots will definitely be called Trumptowns. Trump's brand will have historical longevity.
  #170  
Old 03-21-2020, 11:05 PM
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Replying to the OP:

The WHO published guidelines back in 2015 that diseases should not be named after places of origin (among many other stipulations). This was precisely because places like the Ebola River region had experienced stigma and/or economic repercussions because of the association.

So the idea that China successfully lobbied the WHO on this is demonstrably false; they didn't need to, it was already in the rulebook.
  #171  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-...a=twitter_page

...we are in the middle of a propaganda war. But the problem isn't Chinese propaganda (which is targeted at a domestic Chinese audience) but American propaganda which is targeted at the Domestic American audience.

Does it bother you at all that the positions you have put forward in this thread to claim that "no, calling it the Chinese Virus is not racist" almost exactly mirror the talking points issued by the Trump administration?



Hot tip: when defending yourself against accusations of peddling a conspiracy theory it does not work in your favour to accuse those asking you for evidence of your claims of "massive ignorance", of not being "awake at all in the past 2-3 years", and yet still continuing not to provide any evidence. BigT didn't get anything wrong. Nothing in your big wall of text did hold up. And this current wall of text adds nothing to what you previously wrote.
"But the problem isn't Chinese propaganda (which is targeted at a domestic Chinese audience)"

This is false, completely false.

A lot of the discussion has circled about comments given by the spokesman Lijan Zaho on Twitter, in English, floating the accusation that the US was the origin of the virus and that the US Army introduced it to China.

Twitter is banned in China, and of course commenting in English is not meant to cater to a Chinese audience.

As I also demonstrated the use of racism accusations is a frequent tactic by the Chinese government, before I cited the Chinese government of accusing Australia of racism for suspending flights originating in China; here's Zaho popping up again with comments, on Twitter, in English, aimed at the US (AKA not aimed at a domestic Chinese audience) on a CNBC article from last year:

China’s latest tactic: Call America racist

And here's Xinhua's Twitter account, again in English, pushing the racism talking point. This is not propaganda aimed for internal use.

All this is not a fluke, it's part policy by the CCP.

Wedging race

Wedge politics exploits differences among target communities. The CCP engages in a particular form of wedge politics known as ‘united front’ (tongyi zhanxian, literally united battlefront) work—a byword for a strategy of exploiting internal divisions among the party’s critics or adversaries by forming tactical alliances with some on the other side to isolate and destroy the party’s designated enemies from within.This confrontational and divisive strategy is institutionalised at the highest levels of the CCP organisation where it is coordinated through the United Front Work Department and International Liaison Department of the CCP Central Committee.6 It’s ‘united’ only in the sense that the party seeks to unite people on either side of a ‘battlefront’ with the aim of subverting and overcoming so-called enemies who stand in its way.7
...
To facilitate the CCP’s wedge politics, its champions abroad obscure critical differences between the concepts of party, government and people to ensure that any criticism of the party or government can be dismissed as ‘anti-Chinese’ bigotry. (hello Smapti)
...
"Communist China loves racism against its own people outside of China. It gives them the opportunity to unite the overseas population and sell the point that, you will only be protected and safe when you have a strong motherland. "


This narrative you are trying to weave contradicts observable reality, the Chinese government does in fact use race as a wedge issue in their propaganda efforts aimed outside China.

This is the geopolitical reality, the CCP would have labelled Trump and the US as racist no matter what he said or how he said it as soon as it served its purposes.
And you just lap it up.
What the CCP promotes in its internal propaganda is, as put in this article "China’s nationalism is ethnic-based and built upon both cultural superiority and a narrative of victimhood.", I mean, what could possibly go wrong with that when you also consider their military expansionism, push for territorial expansion, xenophobia and widespread human rights abuses and a cult of personality centered around the leader?

As an aside, reading the Twitter thread started by Xinhua I noticed an obvious Twitter (again, hint, Twitter is blocked in China) pro Chinese propaganda account, so while one arm of the CCP propaganda machine cries foul over racism another goes around saying things like this to people around the world:

-"India is responsible for all rape in the world."
-"Turks should cover all the expenses or supply everything needed for whole world as turks fuck goats caused hiv problem"
-Referring to a black person "He said it with no apology to a nigga"
-"“White dog shit”,we called u,so u must be it."
-"costa rica dog keep going eating shit."

Last edited by Ale; 03-22-2020 at 01:42 AM. Reason: some spelling errors
  #172  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:45 AM
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If you don't want people to accuse you of being racist, you probably shouldn't be saying racist things.

Which is what you're doing, because nothing you claim China is doing makes calling SARS-Cov 2 a "China virus" helpful, productive, or useful in any way.

Last edited by Smapti; 03-22-2020 at 01:48 AM.
  #173  
Old 03-22-2020, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ale View Post
"But the problem isn't Chinese propaganda (which is targeted at a domestic Chinese audience)"

This is false, completely false.
...no it is not.

Quote:
A lot of the discussion has circled about comments given by the spokesman Lijan Zaho on Twitter, in English, floating the accusation that the US was the origin of the virus and that the US Army introduced it to China.
A lot of the discussion? Bullshit. Hands up anyone here who has even heard of Lijan Zaho before you bought his name up. This thread is about Donald Trump and his administration. It isn't aboutLijan Zaho, no matter how much you want to twist the conversation.

Quote:
Twitter is banned in China, and of course commenting in English is not meant to cater to a Chinese audience.
Well obviously Zaho's comments were directed at conspiracy theorists then like you and XT then. Because nobody else gives a fuck. Trump's obvious racist dog whistle was obvious. We don't need propaganda to be able to point it out.

Quote:
As I also demonstrated the use of racism accusations is a frequent tactic by the Chinese government, before I cited the Chinese government of accusing Australia of racism for suspending flights originating in China; here's Zaho popping up again with comments, on Twitter, in English, aimed at the US (AKA not aimed at a domestic Chinese audience) on a CNBC article from last year:

China’s latest tactic: Call America racist

And here's Xinhua's Twitter account, again in English, pushing the racism talking point. This is not propaganda aimed for internal use.

All this is not a fluke, it's part policy by the CCP.
I'm not a member of the CCP. I'm here, right here, in front of you, telling you my opinion. I'm speaking here, on behalf of myself, telling you that Trump & Co's usage of the phrases "Chinese Virus" is in my most humblest opinions, really fucking racist.

This may or may not have some degree of truth to it.

But once again it is completely irrelevant.

Because Donald Trump is simply racist as fuck.

And the actions of his administration are racist as fuck.

I have agency and I can say that and I've said that.

Quote:
This narrative you are trying to weave contradicts observable reality, the Chinese government does in fact use race as a wedge issue in their propaganda efforts aimed outside China.
This narrative you are trying to weave contradicts observable reality, the United States government does in fact use race as a wedge issue in their propaganda efforts aimed inside the United States, and that is exactly what is happening here.

Quote:
This is the geopolitical reality, the CCP would have labelled Trump and the US as racist no matter what he said or how he said it as soon as it served its purposes.
Who gives a fuck what the CCP says?

Quote:
And you just lap it up.
Or maybe, just maybe, I'm simply telling you what I think.

Quote:
What the CCP promotes in its internal propaganda is, as put in this article "China’s nationalism is ethnic-based and built upon both cultural superiority and a narrative of victimhood.", I mean, what could possibly go wrong with that when you also consider their military expansionism, push for territorial expansion, xenophobia and widespread human rights abuses and a cult of personality centered around the leader?

As an aside, reading the Twitter thread started by Xinhua I noticed an obvious Twitter (again, hint, Twitter is blocked in China) pro Chinese propaganda account, so while one arm of the CCP propaganda machine cries foul over racism another goes around saying things like this to people around the world:

-"India is responsible for all rape in the world."
-"Turks should cover all the expenses or supply everything needed for whole world as turks fuck goats caused hiv problem"
-Referring to a black person "He said it with no apology to a nigga"
-"“White dog shit”,we called u,so u must be it."
-"costa rica dog keep going eating shit."
This is so far outside the scope of the OP I don't even know how to respond.

Trump and co are calling it the Chinese Virus because it suits them for propaganda reasons. That's it. That isn't a controversial opinion.
  #174  
Old 03-22-2020, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
If you don't want people to accuse you of being racist, you probably shouldn't be saying racist things.

Which is what you're doing, because nothing you claim China is doing makes calling SARS-Cov 2 a "China virus" helpful, productive, or useful in any way.
The Chinese Communist Party, its policies and actions are not a race, their propaganda machine, as I have shown in various citations, would like to conflate criticism of those as racism against the Chinese people, as you are doing right now, well done have a cookie, but it doesn't make it so.
  #175  
Old 03-22-2020, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
The Chinese Communist Party, its policies and actions are not a race, their propaganda machine, as I have shown in various citations, would like to conflate criticism of those as racism against the Chinese people, as you are doing right now, well done have a cookie, but it doesn't make it so.
Calling the disease "Wuhan virus" or "China virus" or "Chinese coronavirus" is the very definition of conflating the Chinese nation and people with "the CCP".

If you don't want to be called a racist, then stop being racist.
  #176  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:07 AM
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Banquet Bear you are in full denial and contradicting yourself in what you say, first you open by again denying that China uses propaganda outside its borders or that constitutes a problem, followed by "This narrative you are trying to weave contradicts observable reality", with the comment that "This may or may not have some degree of truth to it." regarding a citation on the thing you categorically said isn't true before. Hint, those three things you said are logically inconsistent.

Calling the issues described in the various citations I brought up not real doesn't make it so. Just so you know China has an official department called "Central Propaganda Department of the Communist Party of China", it's in the blipping name; you can even buy their latest book: "A Battle Against Epidemic: China Combating COVID-19 in 2020", available in English, French, Spanish, Russian and Arabic, because you know, they target foreign audiences with their propaganda.

"Who gives a fuck what the CCP says?"
Not you, obviously. You seem entirely consumed by Trump, he is your alpha and omega, this impairs your ability to discuss things, clearly. You reflexively ignore context and arguments that do not support your overriding need of sticking with All Trump, All wrong, All the time.

Regarding the OP Trump gave his reasons:
"Mr. Trump told reporters that he was attaching “China” to the name of the virus to combat a disinformation campaign promoted by Beijing officials that the American military was the source of the outbreak.
“I didn’t appreciate the fact that China was saying that our military gave it to them,” Mr. Trump said. “I think saying that our military gave it to them creates a stigma.”"

Action, reaction.
You want to believe that's not the real reason, you want to ignore what the action was that prompted the reaction because it fits better with you to just know that it's entirely about racism (watch out for GIGObuster giving you a lecture about the problems with mind reading any time never now). If you prefer a simplistic, black and white view of the world that's up to you, but some of us aspire to do better.

I think that it's entirely within the scope of the OP that China's propaganda exploits accusations of racism against other countries for political gain, that's why I brought it up; specially considering the context of the situation which was initiated by the Chinese government use of propaganda to shift attention away from themselves. You don't just disagree with that, you are saying that is something that doesn't exist altogether even after I brought up cite after cite to support the point.

I do think that is very relevant when discussing whether something isn't or isn't racist if there is evident (not to you, obviously) pressure or intention by one of the parties involved to exploit accusations of racism for political gain, because obviously (not to you, evidently) when one side, the one you want to completely eliminate from the equation, has a history of doing that very thing and a very large, very active state apparatus with a documented history of exploiting accusations of racism for political gain, that will have an impact on the perception of the issue.

Unless you want to advance the notion that propaganda has no effect whatsoever on people, in which case I'll kindly ask you, and fellow travelers, to STFU about your endless wailing about RUSSIA for the foreseeable duration of the Universe, thank you ever so much.
  #177  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
Calling the disease "Wuhan virus" or "China virus" or "Chinese coronavirus" is the very definition of conflating the Chinese nation and people with "the CCP".

If you don't want to be called a racist, then stop being racist.
In case you forgot, the place for personal insults is the BBQ Pit.
  #178  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:16 AM
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Imagine being the kind of person who, when there's a viral pandemic raging across the world and in your own country, your top priority isn't ameliorating the damage, helping the sick, providing for those who're out of work, protecting those who have to keep working and exposing themselves, or shoring up the economy against the total collapse that all of these factors are going to precipitate, but rather, is deciding who to blame, or who they should call names at because they started it.

I would urge that kind of person to get the hell of their high horse with their dog-whistling and their buck-passing dedicate their efforts to actually helping people.

I work in a grocery store. I am in the shit right now. I can't just work from home or self-quarantine, because it turns out that I and people like myself are actually essential to keep civilization running. I've probably been exposed to over 10,000 people in the last week, and there are confirmed cases in this area.

Blaming "the CCP" does NOTHING for me or my co-workers. Actual government relief of the type that Trump is denying the need for WOULD.

Last edited by Smapti; 03-22-2020 at 06:21 AM.
  #179  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
Imagine being the kind of person who, when there's a viral pandemic raging across the world and in your own country, your top priority isn't ameliorating the damage, helping the sick, providing for those who're out of work, protecting those who have to keep working and exposing themselves, or shoring up the economy against the total collapse that all of these factors are going to precipitate, but rather, is deciding who to blame, or who they should call names at because they started it.

I would urge that kind of person to get the hell of their high horse with their dog-whistling and their buck-passing dedicate their efforts to actually helping people.

I work in a grocery store. I am in the shit right now. I can't just work from home or self-quarantine, because it turns out that I and people like myself are actually essential to keep civilization running. I've probably been exposed to over 10,000 people in the last week, and there are confirmed cases in this area.

Blaming "the CCP" does NOTHING for me or my co-workers. Actual government relief of the type that Trump is denying the need for WOULD.
The thing is, you are being very selective in your outrage over blame being shifted.
This whole situation was propitiated by the CCP doing just that, but for some reason you don't want to acknowledge it. I know why the CCP wants to but for you, IDK, an overriding hate for Trump married to a narrow, provincialist viewpoint are my guesses.

But now that we are sharing personal circumstances I'll tell you something, you accused me of being here for no other purpose of spreading a "Yellow Peril" narrative: "The Yellow Peril is a color-metaphor that East Asians are an existential danger and threat to the Western world.", my girlfriend, 13 years and counting, is East Asian. I've lived in Asia for as many years and part of the reason is that I like the people here, I feel very comfortable among them and I can blipping guarantee you that none of those who know me would support your baseless accusations of being a racist.
I go to China a few times a year and every single time I dread it; seeing how people are living under an oppressive government is awful and every time I go it feels worse. I wish they one day get to enjoy the liberties the party controlling their lives fear and loathe so much, and worse yet wish to impose elsewhere.
So I'll speak up against the CCP's harmful policies every day and twice on Sundays, thank you very much. if you can't separate a "race" (just so you know there isn't a Chinese race) from a political regime, that speaks about your shortcomings, not mine.

So yeah, your name calling is entirely out of order, regardless of your personal frustrations.
  #180  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:16 AM
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Banquet Bear you are in full denial and contradicting yourself in what you say, first you open by again denying that China uses propaganda outside its borders or that constitutes a problem, followed by "This narrative you are trying to weave contradicts observable reality", with the comment that "This may or may not have some degree of truth to it." regarding a citation on the thing you categorically said isn't true before. Hint, those three things you said are logically inconsistent.

Calling the issues described in the various citations I brought up not real doesn't make it so. Just so you know China has an official department called "Central Propaganda Department of the Communist Party of China", it's in the blipping name; you can even buy their latest book: "A Battle Against Epidemic: China Combating COVID-19 in 2020", available in English, French, Spanish, Russian and Arabic, because you know, they target foreign audiences with their propaganda.

"Who gives a fuck what the CCP says?"
Not you, obviously. You seem entirely consumed by Trump, he is your alpha and omega, this impairs your ability to discuss things, clearly. You reflexively ignore context and arguments that do not support your overriding need of sticking with All Trump, All wrong, All the time.

Regarding the OP Trump gave his reasons:
"Mr. Trump told reporters that he was attaching “China” to the name of the virus to combat a disinformation campaign promoted by Beijing officials that the American military was the source of the outbreak.
“I didn’t appreciate the fact that China was saying that our military gave it to them,” Mr. Trump said. “I think saying that our military gave it to them creates a stigma.”"

Action, reaction.
You want to believe that's not the real reason, you want to ignore what the action was that prompted the reaction because it fits better with you to just know that it's entirely about racism (watch out for GIGObuster giving you a lecture about the problems with mind reading any time never now). If you prefer a simplistic, black and white view of the world that's up to you, but some of us aspire to do better.

I think that it's entirely within the scope of the OP that China's propaganda exploits accusations of racism against other countries for political gain, that's why I brought it up; specially considering the context of the situation which was initiated by the Chinese government use of propaganda to shift attention away from themselves. You don't just disagree with that, you are saying that is something that doesn't exist altogether even after I brought up cite after cite to support the point.

I do think that is very relevant when discussing whether something isn't or isn't racist if there is evident (not to you, obviously) pressure or intention by one of the parties involved to exploit accusations of racism for political gain, because obviously (not to you, evidently) when one side, the one you want to completely eliminate from the equation, has a history of doing that very thing and a very large, very active state apparatus with a documented history of exploiting accusations of racism for political gain, that will have an impact on the perception of the issue.
...Donald Trump is racist as fuck. The Trump administration is racist as fuck. I've seen ZERO propaganda from the CCP apart from what you have cited in this thread. My opinions are 100% my own. You can write lots and lots of words if you like. My opinion remains unchanged.

Quote:
Unless you want to advance the notion that propaganda has no effect whatsoever on people, in which case I'll kindly ask you, and fellow travelers, to STFU about your endless wailing about RUSSIA for the foreseeable duration of the Universe, thank you ever so much.
Telling me to STFU is entirely out of order, regardless of your personal frustrations. You should stop doing that.

And of course propaganda works. Of course it can have an effect on people. You've established that CCP propaganda exists. What you haven't done is demonstrate how CCP propaganda influenced the opinions of people posting in this thread. And if you can't do that then it doesn't matter how many words you write, none of that is relevant. None of that matters. This thread literally has nothing to do with the CCP. By calling it the Chinese Virus Trump and co aren't hurting China or the CCP: they are hurting Asian Americans. That's the entire point. This is why what Trump said was bad. This entire tangent is a distraction.
  #181  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:52 AM
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Simple question.

Is it cool to start calling Lyme disease the “white people plague?” Because, you know, it really started with the really, really white town of Lyme.
  #182  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:23 AM
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Shrug. ... I think that the list of misdeeds by the US is nothing compared to even the very evil shit the CCP has done in the last decade.
The GOP's* adventure in Iraq cost a million lives according to many reputable analyses. Have you included this in your calculus? Those losses were due to malicious misbehavior, not ignorant mistakes, like CCP's initial slowness in responding to the CCP virus. (Anyway, the GOP response to the CCP virus was even worse than CCP's initial response.)

(* "GOP" - I've followed your lead, substituting the name of the relevant political party rather than indicting America generally.)

Countries like Taiwan have done a good job of containing the CCP virus. Given GOP's failures to combat the virus properly, should its instantiation in the U.S. perhaps best be called the GOP virus?
  #183  
Old 03-22-2020, 10:10 AM
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...Donald Trump is racist as fuck. The Trump administration is racist as fuck. I've seen ZERO propaganda from the CCP apart from what you have cited in this thread. My opinions are 100% my own. You can write lots and lots of words if you like. My opinion remains unchanged.



Telling me to STFU is entirely out of order, regardless of your personal frustrations. You should stop doing that.

And of course propaganda works. Of course it can have an effect on people. You've established that CCP propaganda exists. What you haven't done is demonstrate how CCP propaganda influenced the opinions of people posting in this thread. And if you can't do that then it doesn't matter how many words you write, none of that is relevant. None of that matters. This thread literally has nothing to do with the CCP. By calling it the Chinese Virus Trump and co aren't hurting China or the CCP: they are hurting Asian Americans. That's the entire point. This is why what Trump said was bad. This entire tangent is a distraction.
Alright, once again, slowly just for you...

The reason this thread exists in the first place is, I presume by the timming, as a concequence of Trump referring to the SARS 2 virus as the Chinese Virus and the subsequent pearl clutching that ensued; the reason why that happened was in response to Chinese state propaganda trying to deny the origin of the virus(note 1), which you now say you where not aware of.(note 2)

Therefore the order of events is like this:

1) Chinese Propaganda makes claim
2) Trump responds to that propaganda
3) Question raised over whether No.2 is racist or not.

My point in this thread: don't forget No.1; and for the relationship between No.1, No.2 and No.3 keep in mind that Chinese propaganda (No1. you follow?) has a track record of deflecting criticism with claims of racism and that needs to be taken in consideration when considering No.3.

Why is that relevant? More on this on Note 1 and 2, but before that; one more thing.

All three points are connected and I made my case for it, but you want to ignore all of it and just have another chance to say dump on Trump, which really doesn't contribute much to the discussion just as if one was started to explore the topic of, I don't know, the mutiny aboard HMS Bounty, and all you'd do would be to remind everyone of what an ass captain Bligh was, yes we know, but there's more to that.

Note 1: The question on the OP was why use the term Wuhan virus and how the following question in it "Or because China has more clout and the international community is more reluctant to anger China?" factors in the issue.

The efforts by China using it's significant propaganda resources, such as attempting to claim that the virus originated elsewhere (which is what prompted Trumps reaction, i.e. points 1 and 2) are entirely relevant to that question so you claiming previously that "This thread is about Donald Trump and his administration." and berating me with "This entire tangent is a distraction." is you being wrong, capisce?

When I told you that your obsession with Trump impairs your ability to carry out a discussion it was not a meaningless dismissal.

By the terms in the OP the range of discussion goes from the ins and outs of using geographical names for diseases and the stigma it may or not carry, and the role the Chinese government (you know that thing you absolutely do not want to talk about and claim is a distraction) on the matter.
I quote you "This thread literally has nothing to do with the CCP.", I quote the OP again "Or because China has more clout and the international community is more reluctant to anger China?". The person derailing the topic presented for discussion is you, do you understand now?

Option A) Yes
Option B) No
Option C) DRRUUUUUMMMPPPPFFFFF!!!

What I have contributed to the thread is focused on that last question, how China is using it's power, in particular through the use of propaganda (usually referred as its "Soft Power") to shape the narrative surrounding events related to the SARS 2 virus outbreak. That, again if you lost focus, is entirely relevant to the question raised in the OP of whether China's power has an impact on what language is used and how it is interpreted.

Note 2: If your extraordinary claim is to be taken at face value, " I've seen ZERO propaganda from the CCP apart from what you have cited in this thread.", then what makes you feel you are in a position to tell me what is or isn't true or relevant regarding the topic? Arguments from ignorance are never good, specially when served with an attitude.
  #184  
Old 03-22-2020, 10:14 AM
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Simple question.

Is it cool to start calling Lyme disease the “white people plague?” Because, you know, it really started with the really, really white town of Lyme.
Well several communicable diseases and pathogenic bacteria should be called American-something from now on.
e.g. It's about time we got credit for Syphilis and called it American Dicksores
MAGA KAGA!!
  #185  
Old 03-22-2020, 10:25 AM
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This thread is a great example of the backlash that comes from calling Trump supporters (or Trump enablers) racists.

If people hate that so much, why don't they do the simple things it takes to avoid it... like not saying racist-sounding things, whether they mean to be racist or not?

You don't think "Chinese Virus" is racist? Fine. Is it a great mystery to you why it sure sounds that way to others?

And context matters. Why is this even a thing right now? Because Trump knows there's a shitstorm of blame coming his way for his gross incompetence during this crisis. People want to whine it came from China and we shouldn't be fooled by Chinese propaganda, all the while pushing American propaganda. It's moronic.

In the end, it seems to me that people want to be able to express racist sentiment without being accused of racism. That's called eating your cake and having it too. If you're a racist, just own it.
  #186  
Old 03-22-2020, 11:30 AM
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The GOP's* adventure in Iraq cost a million lives according to many reputable analyses. Have you included this in your calculus? Those losses were due to malicious misbehavior, not ignorant mistakes, like CCP's initial slowness in responding to the CCP virus. (Anyway, the GOP response to the CCP virus was even worse than CCP's initial response.)

(* "GOP" - I've followed your lead, substituting the name of the relevant political party rather than indicting America generally.)

Countries like Taiwan have done a good job of containing the CCP virus. Given GOP's failures to combat the virus properly, should its instantiation in the U.S. perhaps best be called the GOP virus?
Why yes, I did include that. Did you include the deaths caused by China in Tibet? How about those in Xinjiang? What about those from Falun Gong? Or do these not count because they are internal and only Chinese? Without even getting into the cluster fucks of earlier eras of the CCP (can you say Mao and the Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution), it's pretty clear that the US isn't in the same league, even counting Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and whatever else you want to plausibly put on our ledger.

I'm unsure why you think that putting GOP on anything is going to pull my chain. You are obviously under the misapprehension that I'm some sort of GOP follower or something. You also seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I think the GOP's (or really the entire US political systems) handling of this outbreak has been good. It hasn't. And the majority of that falls squarely on the leadership, mainly Trump and his administration. We COULD have done better, been better prepared, had the number of test kits needed in the pipeline. But we didn't and still don't, and that is on Trump et al.

I would advise caution in calling Taiwan a 'country' though...wouldn't want to piss off the CCP after all.
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  #187  
Old 03-22-2020, 12:48 PM
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Replying to the OP:

The WHO published guidelines back in 2015 that diseases should not be named after places of origin (among many other stipulations). This was precisely because places like the Ebola River region had experienced stigma and/or economic repercussions because of the association.

So the idea that China successfully lobbied the WHO on this is demonstrably false; they didn't need to, it was already in the rulebook.
That's at least the third post to point this out. Seems it doesn't fit some people's narratives so it gets ignored.
  #188  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:25 PM
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That's at least the third post to point this out. Seems it doesn't fit some people's narratives so it gets ignored.
So? the WHO guidelines are not going to stop people from calling things whatever the want to, I pointed elsewhere that Taiwan calls it Wuhan Pneumonia, is that because they are racist against their ethnically related Chinese neighbours? It's simplistic, or convenient, to default to a single explanation to everything.

Meanwhile this just popped up in the news:

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — Iran’s supreme leader refused U.S. assistance Sunday to fight the new coronavirus, citing an unfounded conspiracy theory claiming the virus could be man-made by America.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s comments come as Iran faces crushing U.S. sanctions blocking the country from selling its crude oil and accessing international financial markets.

But while Iranian civilian officials in recent days have increasingly criticized those sanctions, 80-year-old Khamenei instead chose to traffic in the same conspiracy theory increasingly used by Chinese officials about the new virus to deflect blame for the pandemic.
  #189  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:48 PM
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So? the WHO guidelines are not going to stop people from calling things whatever the want to, I pointed elsewhere that Taiwan calls it Wuhan Pneumonia, is that because they are racist against their ethnically related Chinese neighbours?
As it was pointed before by others, Taiwan has many reasons to disparage the mainland, read some history please.

In the meantime one should consider what international orgs decided the proper naming should be, and even what the CDC mentions:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019..._1584386215012
Quote:
On February 11, 2020 the World Health Organization announced an official name for the disease that is causing the 2019 novel coronavirus outbreak, first identified in Wuhan China. The new name of this disease is coronavirus disease 2019, abbreviated as COVID-19. In COVID-19, ‘CO’ stands for ‘corona,’ ‘VI’ for ‘virus,’ and ‘D’ for disease. Formerly, this disease was referred to as “2019 novel coronavirus” or “2019-nCoV”.

There are many types of human coronaviruses including some that commonly cause mild upper-respiratory tract illnesses. COVID-19 is a new disease, caused be a novel (or new) coronavirus that has not previously been seen in humans. The name of this disease was selected following the World Health Organization (WHO) best practiceexternal icon for naming of new human infectious diseases.

Coronavirus in common parlance and COVFEFE-19 COVID-19 in more official settings.

The U.S. is currently the largest contributor to WHO and a member from 1948, the president is not only being a bigot, but also (as usual) not responsible for the duties he is supposed to show regarding international treaties.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-22-2020 at 01:50 PM.
  #190  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:51 PM
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So?
context
  #191  
Old 03-22-2020, 03:12 PM
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Yes, thank you, I think everyone is up to speed on what the rule book says.

However, answering the question of why someone did something and what does that mean with "the rule book say they can't do it" doesn't go too far, does it?
  #192  
Old 03-22-2020, 03:58 PM
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Yes, thank you, I think everyone is up to speed on what the rule book says.

However, answering the question of why someone did something and what does that mean with "the rule book say they can't do it" doesn't go too far, does it?
Way to miss the point, which is that the rule book predates the current situation. Ergo, claiming that they're currently kowtowing to China/CCP is a non-starter.
  #193  
Old 03-22-2020, 04:32 PM
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Well several communicable diseases and pathogenic bacteria should be called American-something from now on.
e.g. It's about time we got credit for Syphilis and called it American Dicksores
MAGA KAGA!!
You mean like Pontiac fever, which comes from the Pontiac river in Michigan? Or Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever? Or Lyme disease, which got its name because it was first found in Lyme Connecticut? Or maybe Valley fever, which comes from the San Joaquin valley? Then there is Norovirus, named after Norfolk Virginia. Legionnaire's' disease was so named because the first outbreak happen at an American legion convention in Philadelphia.

Are those names racist? If not, how do they differ from 'Wuhan Coronavirus'?
  #194  
Old 03-22-2020, 04:50 PM
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Trump being Trump, when he uses verbiage that could be interpreted as racist, it becomes racist. Intent doesn't matter. The idea of a border wall isn't necessarily racist... but combine a border wall with calling Mexicans rapists, saying a judge can't do his job because he has Mexican ancestry, spreading evidence-free racist conspiracy theories for years and years, and numerous other racist assertions, and that border wall becomes a symbol of racial hatred. When Trump insists on calling the virus the "China virus" or whatever, then it's entirely reasonable to interpret it as racist, because it's fucking Trump.

I know this is alien to a lot of people, but this is how I see it, and how the vast majority of non-white people that I've spoken to see it. When David Duke says something even slightly related to race, it's racist, because it's fucking David Duke. Trump is a bit less obviously racist, but much, much more powerful and influential, than David Duke. His racism isn't quite as bad as Duke's, but it's much, much more powerful and influential. And it's imperative that decent people oppose it.
  #195  
Old 03-22-2020, 04:58 PM
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Alright, once again, slowly just for you...
...writing lots of words didn't help you before. I suspect writing slowly isn't going to help you either.

Quote:
The reason this thread exists in the first place is, I presume by the timming, as a concequence of Trump referring to the SARS 2 virus as the Chinese Virus and the subsequent pearl clutching that ensued; the reason why that happened was in response to Chinese state propaganda trying to deny the origin of the virus(note 1), which you now say you where not aware of.(note 2)
Lets for the purposes of debate assume the bolded is true (and I don't think it is.) You would agree that this is a pathetic, petty, ridiculous reason for Donald Trump to cross out "corona" with a sharpie and replace it with China, don't you?

Quote:
Therefore the order of events is like this:

1) Chinese Propaganda makes claim
2) Trump responds to that propaganda
3) Question raised over whether No.2 is racist or not.
The order of events is actually this:

1) Trump does something really fucking racists
2) People call out Trump and co's racism
3) Gaslighters gaslight

Because it doesn't matter what the CCP did. Trump still did the racist. And that's all that matters.

Quote:
My point in this thread: don't forget No.1; and for the relationship between No.1, No.2 and No.3 keep in mind that Chinese propaganda (No1. you follow?) has a track record of deflecting criticism with claims of racism and that needs to be taken in consideration when considering No.3.
It doesn't matter what the CCP has a track record of doing. Trump still did the racist, and we are calling him out for doing the racist.

Quote:
Why is that relevant? More on this on Note 1 and 2, but before that; one more thing.

All three points are connected and I made my case for it, but you want to ignore all of it and just have another chance to say dump on Trump, which really doesn't contribute much to the discussion just as if one was started to explore the topic of, I don't know, the mutiny aboard HMS Bounty, and all you'd do would be to remind everyone of what an ass captain Bligh was, yes we know, but there's more to that.
There isn't any more to this. Trump is being racist. We are calling him out. What else matters?

Quote:
Note 1: The question on the OP was why use the term Wuhan virus and how the following question in it "Or because China has more clout and the international community is more reluctant to anger China?" factors in the issue.
Trump didn't do the racist because "China has more clout." Trump did the racist because Trump is racist.

Quote:
The efforts by China using it's significant propaganda resources, such as attempting to claim that the virus originated elsewhere (which is what prompted Trumps reaction, i.e. points 1 and 2) are entirely relevant to that question so you claiming previously that "This thread is about Donald Trump and his administration." and berating me with "This entire tangent is a distraction." is you being wrong, capisce?
I'm not being wrong. This thread is about Donald Trump and his administration. They did the racist, they continue to do the racist, they've distributed racist talking points. You've argued that it is related to the CCP but the evidence you've provided is woeful. The people in this thread haven't been influenced by CCP propaganda. We are simply calling Trump out for being a racist.

Quote:
When I told you that your obsession with Trump impairs your ability to carry out a discussion it was not a meaningless dismissal.
its a strawman, and a poor one at that. I don't have an obsession with Trump. i have an opinion, and I've expressed it.

Quote:
By the terms in the OP the range of discussion goes from the ins and outs of using geographical names for diseases and the stigma it may or not carry, and the role the Chinese government (you know that thing you absolutely do not want to talk about and claim is a distraction) on the matter.
I quote you "This thread literally has nothing to do with the CCP.", I quote the OP again "Or because China has more clout and the international community is more reluctant to anger China?". The person derailing the topic presented for discussion is you, do you understand now?
The thread literally has nothing to do with the CCP. All of your posts simply prove that. There is no relationship between the opinions expressed that Trump is a racist and a propaganda effort by the CCP. Its the relationship you have failed to prove. Who in this thread who has expressed an opinion against Trump do you think was influenced by CCP propaganda? Name names.

Quote:
Option A) Yes
Option B) No
Option C) DRRUUUUUMMMPPPPFFFFF!!!
LOL. I'm not derailing the thread. I'm not throwing around conspiracy theories. I'm entirely on topic.

Quote:
What I have contributed to the thread is focused on that last question, how China is using it's power, in particular through the use of propaganda (usually referred as its "Soft Power") to shape the narrative surrounding events related to the SARS 2 virus outbreak. That, again if you lost focus, is entirely relevant to the question raised in the OP of whether China's power has an impact on what language is used and how it is interpreted.
China's power had absolutely nothing to do with me calling Trump and his administration racist. It has everything to do with the fact that Trump and his administration is racist.

Quote:
Note 2: If your extraordinary claim is to be taken at face value, " I've seen ZERO propaganda from the CCP apart from what you have cited in this thread.", then what makes you feel you are in a position to tell me what is or isn't true or relevant regarding the topic? Arguments from ignorance are never good, specially when served with an attitude.
There is nothing extraordinary about my claim. Its your claim that my position has been influenced by CCP propaganda. This simply isn't the case. I'm certainly not arguing from ignorance: I know much more about my own personal circumstances than you ever will.
  #196  
Old 03-22-2020, 05:25 PM
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You mean like Pontiac fever, which comes from the Pontiac river in Michigan? Or Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever? Or Lyme disease, which got its name because it was first found in Lyme Connecticut? Or maybe Valley fever, which comes from the San Joaquin valley? Then there is Norovirus, named after Norfolk Virginia. Legionnaire's' disease was so named because the first outbreak happen at an American legion convention in Philadelphia.

Are those names racist? If not, how do they differ from 'Wuhan Coronavirus'?
All of them were named prior to 2015.
  #197  
Old 03-22-2020, 05:45 PM
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And because someone since has decided that such names might 'stigmatize' a region, we all have to agree and abandon common naming practices that have been in use for a century, or risk being called a racist.

That's exactly how the language gets weaponized by people with an agenda. It's exactly how propagandists in China and Russia use our own language against us. It's one of the oldest plays in the book. And the left keeps falling for it, over and over again, because it fits their priors.

Do you think people who live in the Rockies feel stigmatized by the name Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever? Do you think West Nile virus makes people think less of those who live in that region? Did Legionaire's disease stigmatize people who are members of the American Legion organization?

I have yet to see or hear anyone show any xenophobia towards Chinese people over this. Everyone knows you are not personally at fault if a virus breaks out in your country. Some people ARE mad about the Chinese government's role in allowing wet market practices known to be dangerous, then covering it up and making the global damage much worse - which of course is why there is a propaganda campaign to shame anyone who dares to mention China along with the virus.
  #198  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:12 PM
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And because someone since has decided that such names might 'stigmatize' a region, we all have to agree and abandon common naming practices that have been in use for a century, or risk being called a racist.
If one reads post #38 one will notice that since 2015 that was accorded. It may not be racist specifically but grossly ignorant to continue to deny that item, specially at a leadership level.

(Then I also do agree with many that point that racism is a kind of ignorance)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
That's exactly how the language gets weaponized by people with an agenda. It's exactly how propagandists in China and Russia use our own language against us. It's one of the oldest plays in the book. And the left keeps falling for it, over and over again, because it fits their priors.
Nope, that is also ignoring what was agreed in 2015, and the USA is a signer to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
Do you think people who live in the Rockies feel stigmatized by the name Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever? Do you think West Nile virus makes people think less of those who live in that region? Did Legionaire's disease stigmatize people who are members of the American Legion organization?
Irrelevant after 2015

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...477?sequence=1


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
I have yet to see or hear anyone show any xenophobia towards Chinese people over this.
Well, thanks for showing all that you missed post #161, Trump is just continuing with the bigotry and the continuing to goad some followers to continue with ignorant attacks against Asians in the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
Everyone knows you are not personally at fault if a virus breaks out in your country. Some people ARE mad about the Chinese government's role in allowing wet market practices known to be dangerous, then covering it up and making the global damage much worse - which of course is why there is a propaganda campaign to shame anyone who dares to mention China along with the virus.
As I pointed before I'm aware of how much of a bastard the Chinese rulers can be, but as one should be aware, even bastards can have a point. Trump is going against what was accorded in 2015.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-22-2020 at 07:14 PM.
  #199  
Old 03-22-2020, 08:01 PM
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Simple question.

Is it cool to start calling Lyme disease the “white people plague?” Because, you know, it really started with the really, really white town of Lyme.
Hang on...

COVID-19 started in Wuhan but calling it ‘Wuhan flu’ is (apparently) racist.

Lyme disease started in a town called Lyme (never knew that), but calling it ‘Lyme disease’ isn’t racist.

Seems to me that either both names are racist or neither of them are.
  #200  
Old 03-22-2020, 08:29 PM
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Are you now going to argue that “Chinese virus” isn’t racist, but “white people plague” is?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tr...e-virus-notes/
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