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  #201  
Old 03-22-2020, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Hang on...

COVID-19 started in Wuhan but calling it ‘Wuhan flu’ is (apparently) racist.

Lyme disease started in a town called Lyme (never knew that), but calling it ‘Lyme disease’ isn’t racist.

Seems to me that either both names are racist or neither of them are.
A bit of a moot point to dwell on that.

From the 2015 World Health Organization Best Practices for the Naming of New Human Infectious Disease that many are not reading, even though it was cited about 4 times already:

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=1
Quote:
Table B Disease names may NOT include:
Geographic locations:
Cities, countries, regions, continents

Examples to be avoided:
Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, Spanish Flu, Rift Valley fever, Lyme disease,
Crimean Congo hemorrhagic fever, Japanese encephalitis

People’s names
Examples to be avoided:
Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, Chagas disease

Species/class of animal or food
Examples to be avoided:
Swine flu, bird flu, monkey pox, equine encephalitis, paralytic shellfish poisoning

Cultural, population, industry or occupational references
Examples to be avoided:
Occupational, legionnaires, miners, butchers, cooks, nurses.
  #202  
Old 03-22-2020, 08:52 PM
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I tuned into the daily propaganda briefing again to day. Trump is trying to blame everything and everyone and take zero responsibility even as a war time president.

One paraphrase: "I would personally call former presidents right now to help if I thought it would save one life. But I don't think it will do any good."
  #203  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
And because someone since has decided that such names might 'stigmatize' a region, we all have to agree and abandon common naming practices that have been in use for a century, or risk being called a racist.
"We" did agree to abandon the old naming practices. Or at least the US signed on. I guess Canada did as well but I can't find a cite.

Again, n*gger, colored, negro ad nauseam were all perfectly fine words until some bleeding heart librul cried umbrage.

The Chinese community in the US are very worried about the xenophobia being perpetrated by the President of the US. Maybe not so much in Canada since Trudeau doesn't spew that kind of racist vitrol.
  #204  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...writing lots of words didn't help you before. I suspect writing slowly isn't going to help you either.

Lets for the purposes of debate assume the bolded is true (and I don't think it is.) You would agree that this is a pathetic, petty, ridiculous reason for Donald Trump to cross out "corona" with a sharpie and replace it with China, don't you?

snipped for brevity
You completely in Lalaland now with your denials, and I can't be bothered too much with you but I 'll just show one more time how dishonest you are being.

You say "Lets for the purposes of debate assume the bolded is true (and I don't think it is.)", the bolded text reads " the reason why that happened was in response to Chinese state propaganda trying to deny the origin of the virus", you don't think that is true even after I cited this:

"Mr. Trump told reporters that he was attaching “China” to the name of the virus to combat a disinformation campaign promoted by Beijing officials that the American military was the source of the outbreak.”"

Do you deny that? Trump didn't say that? The disinformation by Chinese officials Trump speaks of is covered in multiple cites I've provided in this thread such as:

Official Communist Party publication Xinhua has published several articles questioning COVID-19’s provenance, and the state-run Global Times wrote, “As the U.S. COVID-19 situation becomes increasingly obscure, the Chinese public shares the suspicion raised by Zhao Lijian that the U.S. might be the source of the virus and that the U.S. is subject [to] questioning and is obliged to explain [its role to] the world.”

And I'll add one more now: Chinese diplomat promotes conspiracy theory that US military brought coronavirus to Wuhan

Those things you say are not true, are true, they are part of a public record that anyone can see by themselves, just because you hate Trump doesn't give you the right to your own facts and no matter how much you huff and puff what you are saying stands in stark opposition to actual reality.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt your claims are false and at every instance I have brought this to your attention you have doubled down in your denials of plain, verifiable facts.

"I'm certainly not arguing from ignorance"
That I'll grant you, there's more than just plain ignorance at play here.
  #205  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
Do you deny that? Trump didn't say that?
You lost me there, no one has a good reason to believe that the reason he claims he did something was the real reason why he did it.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-whistleblower

Not to mention that it does not deny that, once again, the dishonorable Chinese leaders do have a valid point regarding the specific naming issue at hand.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-22-2020 at 09:45 PM.
  #206  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
You completely in Lalaland now with your denials, and I can't be bothered too much with you but I 'll just show one more time how dishonest you are being.

You say "Lets for the purposes of debate assume the bolded is true (and I don't think it is.)", the bolded text reads " the reason why that happened was in response to Chinese state propaganda trying to deny the origin of the virus", you don't think that is true even after I cited this:

"Mr. Trump told reporters that he was attaching “China” to the name of the virus to combat a disinformation campaign promoted by Beijing officials that the American military was the source of the outbreak.”"

Do you deny that? Trump didn't say that? The disinformation by Chinese officials Trump speaks of is covered in multiple cites I've provided in this thread such as:
...Donald Trump has made over 15,000 false or misleading statements since being in office. I have no reason to believe he is telling the truth here. You do understand that Donald Trump, as well as being a racist, is also a serial liar?

Chinese diplomat conspiracy theories have nothing to do with my opinion on what Trump and his administration have said.

Quote:
Those things you say are not true, are true, they are part of a public record that anyone can see by themselves, just because you hate Trump doesn't give you the right to your own facts and no matter how much you huff and puff what you are saying stands in stark opposition to actual reality.
No matter how much you huff and you puff: it doesn't change the fact that Donald Trump is as racist as fuck and he is using racist dogwhistles to rile up his base.

Quote:
Beyond a shadow of a doubt your claims are false and at every instance I have brought this to your attention you have doubled down in your denials of plain, verifiable facts.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt I can assure you my opinion that Donald Trump is racist as fuck is an opinion I formed on my own based on publicly verifiable facts and wasn't the result of CCP propaganda.
  #207  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
Beyond a shadow of a doubt your claims are false and at every instance I have brought this to your attention you have doubled down in your denials of plain, verifiable facts.

"I'm certainly not arguing from ignorance"
That I'll grant you, there's more than just plain ignorance at play here.
Uh, you must not realize that there was an "if" in what Banquet Bear said there, that even if true, and it is, then the following applies:

"You would agree that this is a pathetic, petty, ridiculous reason for Donald Trump to cross out "corona" with a sharpie and replace it with China, don't you?"

Well it seems that indeed, Trump goes for the pathetic, petty, ridiculous reasons to unsettle others (the fact that China's rulers are attempting to toss other conspiracies is once again not a good reason for the Cheeto in chief to fall for an own goal as experts pointed out in the cite you made:

Quote:
But the term has angered Chinese officials and a wide range of critics, and China experts say labeling the virus that way will only ratchet up tensions between the two countries, while resulting in the kind of xenophobia that American leaders should discourage. Asian-Americans have reported incidents of racial slurs and physical abuse because of the erroneous perception that China is the cause of the virus.

“The use of this term is not only corrosive vis-à-vis a global audience, including here at home, it is also fueling a narrative in China about a broader American hatred and fear of not just the Chinese Communist Party but of China and Chinese people in general,” said Scott Kennedy, a China expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-22-2020 at 09:56 PM.
  #208  
Old 03-23-2020, 01:30 AM
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Choosing who is worse between the Chinese government and Trump is like choosing who to root for in the (past) war between Iran and Iraq. Or deciding which imperialistic country "really" owns the Spratly Islands.

But in my part of the world, we've always felt a bit miffed that the "Barnsdale Ulcer" became the Buruli ulcer just because somebody in Buruli had described it 100 years earlier.
  #209  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
Uh, you must not realize that there was an "if" in what Banquet Bear said there, that even if true, and it is, then the following applies:

"You would agree that this is a pathetic, petty, ridiculous reason for Donald Trump to cross out "corona" with a sharpie and replace it with China, don't you?"

Well it seems that indeed, Trump goes for the pathetic, petty, ridiculous reasons to unsettle others (the fact that China's rulers are attempting to toss other conspiracies is once again not a good reason for the Cheeto in chief to fall for an own goal as experts pointed out in the cite you made:
"Uh, you must not realize that there was an "if" in what Banquet Bear said there, that even if true, and it is , then the following applies:"

This the actual quote from Banquet Bear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
Snipped and bolded by me

Lets for the purposes of debate assume the bolded is true (and I don't think it is .) You would agree that this is a pathetic, petty, ridiculous reason for Donald Trump to cross out "corona" with a sharpie and replace it with China, don't you?

Snipped
You changed what Banquet Bear said on post 195 from "I don't think it is" to "and it is", which is exactly the opposite of what he said.

Congratulations, you reached rock bottom level.

Last edited by Ale; 03-23-2020 at 03:04 AM.
  #210  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:15 AM
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I don't even know what the debate is at this point. The rules for naming diseases were updated before the current crisis, and for sound reasons. Is anyone arguing that it's a good thing that the whole Ebola region has been stigmatized?

Meanwhile if the argument is "We've named it, why change now?", the name used most often by the man on the street is "coronavirus". Which, scientifically, is of course ambiguous, but colloquially it's fine because it's the first time the masses have referred to something as coronavirus. So the people trying to change the name are in fact the ones saying it should become Wuhan virus or whatever.

Last edited by Mijin; 03-23-2020 at 03:16 AM.
  #211  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
the name used most often by the man on the street is "coronavirus"
In case anyone disputes this, these are the google hits for the various terms (and note I didn't even use quote marks so things like Wuhan virus are artificially boosted here by some of the hits not even including the word Wuhan).

(billions of results)
Coronavirus: 20.70
Covid: 18.37
China virus: 3.29
Chinese virus: 3.15
Wuhan virus: 0.23
  #212  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
... Are those names racist? If not, how do they differ from 'Wuhan Coronavirus'?
Answered in #134:

Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Calling the disease "Wuhan virus" BEFORE the more official "Covid-19" came into general use was NOT racist. Calling it "Chinese virus" AFTER the more official "Covid-19" came into general use IS very racist.
@ Mr. Stone — Do you acknowledge that Trump's use of "Chinese virus" was deliberately intended to poke blame at China, and thereby deflect from his own incompetence?

With all the world now using the name "Covid-19", what purpose does calling it "Chinese virus" serve?
  #213  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Are you now going to argue that “Chinese virus” isn’t racist, but “white people plague” is?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tr...e-virus-notes/
Nope. I’m saying consistency is good. We all agree that ‘Flu’ isn’t racist. Therefore, if ‘Wuhan flu’ is racist, it must be because of the addition of the place name, which some people find unfairly stigmatising. If that’s the rule, fine. But then we should retire ‘Lyme Disease’ as a name. Because ‘Lyme’ is a place name, and according to the rule that means ‘Lyme Disease’ is racist.

On the other hand, if ‘Lyme Disease’ isn’t racist, then I can’t see why ‘Wuhan Flu’ is.

I would agree that the label ‘Chinese Virus’ is unfairly anti-Chinese. I wouldn’t necessarily call it racist because Chinese is a nationality, not a race. But that’s a bit of a pedantic distinction. The term is unacceptable in any event.
  #214  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Nope. I’m saying consistency is good. We all agree that ‘Flu’ isn’t racist. Therefore, if ‘Wuhan flu’ is racist, it must be because of the addition of the place name, which some people find unfairly stigmatising. If that’s the rule, fine. But then we should retire ‘Lyme Disease’ as a name. Because ‘Lyme’ is a place name, and according to the rule that means ‘Lyme Disease’ is racist.
There's a big difference between setting new standards for disease naming and insisting that everyone retroactively change a name that's been used for decades already.
Firstly, even if it's feasible to change the scientific name, the popular name is extremely hard to reverse, hence "coronavirus" is still common even as we have a more accurate name.
Secondly it would mean possible confusion, as stacks of data, documents and references contain the old name, and it's not just for Lyme disease, it would be for dozens of the most common diseases. I don't want to make discussion and research of pathogens more annoying by everyone needing to learn a new vocabulary.
  #215  
Old 03-23-2020, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Nope. I’m saying consistency is good. We all agree that ‘Flu’ isn’t racist. Therefore, if ‘Wuhan flu’ is racist, it must be because of the addition of the place name, which some people find unfairly stigmatising. If that’s the rule, fine. But then we should retire ‘Lyme Disease’ as a name. Because ‘Lyme’ is a place name, and according to the rule that means ‘Lyme Disease’ is racist.
I'm not seeing a downside here.
  #216  
Old 03-23-2020, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
Secondly it would mean possible confusion, as stacks of data, documents and references contain the old name, and it's not just for Lyme disease, it would be for dozens of the most common diseases. I don't want to make discussion and research of pathogens more annoying by everyone needing to learn a new vocabulary.
That's a fair point. Objection withdrawn
  #217  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
You changed what Banquet Bear said on post 195 from "I don't think it is" to "and it is", which is exactly the opposite of what he said.

Congratulations, you reached rock bottom level.
Here we've deviated from the discussion to make meta-comments about each others' posts. I voluntarily tracked down this confusion. Here is the relevant text. [Material between brackets is my clarifications.]

Ale:
[1] The reason this thread exists in the first place is ... Trump referring to the SARS 2 virus as the Chinese Virus and the subsequent pearl clutching that ensued;
[2] the reason why that happened was in response to
[2b] Chinese state propaganda trying to deny the origin of the virus, which you now say you where not aware of.
Banquet Bear:
[3a] Lets for the purposes of debate assume the bolded [2b] is true
[3b] (and I don't think it is.)
[3c] You would [then] agree that this is a pathetic, petty, ridiculous reason for Donald Trump to cross out "corona" with a sharpie and replace it with China, don't you?
Ale:
Provides substantial evidence for [2b]
GIGObuster (with emphasis by sgs7):
Uh, you must not realize that there was an [implicit] "if" in [3a-3b], that even if true, and it is, then [3c] applies
Ignoring the validity of 2b and/or 3c, the latest accusation is that the "and it is" by Gigobuster is a misinterpretation of Mr. Bear's post. Gigo's post could and should have been written much more clearly but I interpreted the "and it is" as it was intended — an expression of Gigo's opinion, not Mr. Bear's.

The objection ("You changed what Banquet Bear said") is over-ruled.
  #218  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Nope. I’m saying consistency is good.
Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. (I’m not saying you have a small mind, I’m saying that consistency is not a worthy goal in and of itself.). And as you have been told, the convention of naming diseases has changed to address various concerns - you don’t expect scientific terminology to remain consistent over all time, do you?


Quote:
Therefore, if ‘Wuhan flu’ is racist, it must be because of the addition of the place name, which some people find unfairly stigmatising. If that’s the rule, fine. But then we should retire ‘Lyme Disease’ as a name.
Lyme disease was named in line with the convention at the time. Wuhan flu is NOT in line with current guidelines, and if you believe that various nationalists aren’t trying to change the actual name of the disease for racist and/or political purposes, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

Quote:
I would agree that the label ‘Chinese Virus’ is unfairly anti-Chinese. I wouldn’t necessarily call it racist because Chinese is a nationality, not a race. But that’s a bit of a pedantic distinction. The term is unacceptable in any event.
Jesus Christ, you agree that changing the name of COVID-19 to some things is unfair, but changing it to other things is fair? What happened to your search for consistency?
  #219  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Here we've deviated from the discussion to make meta-comments about each others' posts. I voluntarily tracked down this confusion. Here is the relevant text. [Material between brackets is my clarifications.]

Ale:
[1] The reason this thread exists in the first place is ... Trump referring to the SARS 2 virus as the Chinese Virus and the subsequent pearl clutching that ensued;
[2] the reason why that happened was in response to
[2b] Chinese state propaganda trying to deny the origin of the virus, which you now say you where not aware of.
Banquet Bear:
[3a] Lets for the purposes of debate assume the bolded [2b] is true
[3b] (and I don't think it is.)
[3c] You would [then] agree that this is a pathetic, petty, ridiculous reason for Donald Trump to cross out "corona" with a sharpie and replace it with China, don't you?
Ale:
Provides substantial evidence for [2b]
GIGObuster (with emphasis by sgs7):
Uh, you must not realize that there was an [implicit] "if" in [3a-3b], that even if true, and it is, then [3c] applies
Ignoring the validity of 2b and/or 3c, the latest accusation is that the "and it is" by Gigobuster is a misinterpretation of Mr. Bear's post. Gigo's post could and should have been written much more clearly but I interpreted the "and it is" as it was intended — an expression of Gigo's opinion, not Mr. Bear's.

The objection ("You changed what Banquet Bear said") is over-ruled.
You got it, your honor.

What is sad is that Ale continues to miss that in several posts I do agree with him that the Chinese leadership are doing dishonorable things, and saying dishonarable things; but, regarding the naming of the virus thing, the Chinese have a point.
  #220  
Old 03-23-2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
A bit of a moot point to dwell on that.

From the 2015 World Health Organization Best Practices for the Naming of New Human Infectious Disease that many are not reading, even though it was cited about 4 times already:

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=1
I think everyone is familiar with the what, the why is what people are arguing about.
Why not name it after a region?

Snowflakes?
  #221  
Old 03-23-2020, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
There's a big difference between setting new standards for disease naming and insisting that everyone retroactively change a name that's been used for decades already.
Firstly, even if it's feasible to change the scientific name, the popular name is extremely hard to reverse, hence "coronavirus" is still common even as we have a more accurate name.
Secondly it would mean possible confusion, as stacks of data, documents and references contain the old name, and it's not just for Lyme disease, it would be for dozens of the most common diseases. I don't want to make discussion and research of pathogens more annoying by everyone needing to learn a new vocabulary.
No, there really isn't. If Lyme disease was instead called "nigger disease", do you honestly believe that it wouldn't be changed.

Consistency in terms is of paramount value when arguing about these things. My cite is this thread and a whole host of others where terms could not be agreed upon because someone wants to make up a new version of the word because they saw someone use it once.

If it is RACIST now, it is still racist for the then terms.

Consistency.
  #222  
Old 03-23-2020, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
I think everyone is familiar with the what, the why is what people are arguing about.
Why not name it after a region?

Snowflakes?
Because what difference does it make to know that Lyme Disease was first discovered in Lyme, CT? It doesn't tell you anything about it (is it a virus? Bacteria? Parasite?), doesn't tell you how it affects you, what the symptoms are, nothing. How does it help to call it Spanish Flu, when it came from the US?

It's also not just about not naming things after places, it's also not naming things after who discovered them or after professions either. Fucking miners, bunch of fucking snowflakes. Amirite?

Anyway, I just popped in to ask again, where are you people seeing all this Chinese propaganda? I only come across it when people here post about it.

This thread is so much fun:

OP: Why is it called Wuhan virus? Is it because Wuhan is a well-known large city?

Everyone else: fights

Me: Wuhan isn't a well-known large city and almost no one is calling it Wuhan virus

More fighting along the lines of, Trump did a racist thing because he scratched out corona virus and put Chinese virus in its place [editor's note: not Wuhan virus, BTW]. Others: The CCP is bad, mmmkay? First group: oookay, but what Trump did was racist. Second group: You're all a bunch of dupes for the CCP!! First group: ??

I also love the multiple takes of "why don't we still name things after places?" followed by the 500th cite of the agreement that the US is part of that says, "we won't name things after places".

I want to thank our Canadian brethren for making sure that the US president is just as racist as they want him to be. I wonder what Trudeau is calling it?

OK, re-flouncing. I read this thread, get angry, and close it.
  #223  
Old 03-23-2020, 01:10 PM
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No, there really isn't. If Lyme disease was instead called "nigger disease", do you honestly believe that it wouldn't be changed.

Consistency in terms is of paramount value when arguing about these things. My cite is this thread and a whole host of others where terms could not be agreed upon because someone wants to make up a new version of the word because they saw someone use it once.

If it is RACIST now, it is still racist for the then terms.

Consistency.
That's why it's still called Lyme disease and the Ebola virus. We're discussing a current disease, not an old, well-known one. Some things are in the past, but we're living in the present, and moving inexorably towards a dystopian future where diseases will be known by the content of their character, not by the region near where they may have originated.
  #224  
Old 03-23-2020, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Why not name it after a region?
Because it doesn't convey any useful information, it tends to stigmatize locations and people who then suffer more consequences, it's scientifically imprecise, and it leads to political bickering. And 5 years ago the WHO changed the naming conventions for these valid reasons.
  #225  
Old 03-23-2020, 01:20 PM
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No, there really isn't. If Lyme disease was instead called "nigger disease", do you honestly believe that it wouldn't be changed.
Yes it would be changed.

I am not the one claiming historical consistency is a critical (or even most important) consideration. In reality there are a number of factors to consider.

I just now gave reasons why changing the names of diseases is problematic -- I am sure that WHO would have considered retroactively renaming diseases but rejected it as impractical and infeasible. Do you disagree?
Meanwhile, while Lyme disease and Nigger disease both might be considered racist, if we define racist in the broadest way possible, the degree of offense caused, and so the importance of that factor is not the same.
Has even one person ever been offended by Lyme disease?

Last edited by Mijin; 03-23-2020 at 01:20 PM.
  #226  
Old 03-23-2020, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Consistency in terms is of paramount value when arguing about these things. My cite is this thread and a whole host of others where terms could not be agreed upon because someone wants to make up a new version of the word because they saw someone use it once.

If it is RACIST now, it is still racist for the then terms.

Consistency.
The consistency we should apply is calling diseases by the names experts give them.

When people start changing scientific terms for blatantly political reasons, if you actually care about consistency, you would have a huge problem.

Instead, it’s pretty clear that the Fox News viewers among us agree with the political reasons to rename things to make the Cheeto in Chief happy, and thus we have this argument.
  #227  
Old 03-23-2020, 02:56 PM
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Because it doesn't convey any useful information, it tends to stigmatize locations and people who then suffer more consequences, it's scientifically imprecise, and it leads to political bickering. And 5 years ago the WHO changed the naming conventions for these valid reasons.
The point being argued is that the CCP propaganda machine was something Trump was trying to fight against. His label of the virus as the Chinese virus was absolutely inflammatory and uncalled for, however it was originally named the Wuhan Virus, until WHO got wind evidently.

My point is simple, if something is racist NOW, then the same word(s) should be racist in retrospect, if it is still present and prevalent.

Also, I laugh at the "stigmatizes the region for which it was named". EXACTLY for that reason do I think it's a bullshit reason.


No one in Lyme, is "stigmatized", not one single person.
  #228  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:28 PM
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I think everyone is familiar with the what, the why is what people are arguing about.
Why not name it after a region?

Snowflakes?
I'm trying to grasp the direction or relevance, if any, of your query. Is it your claim that China anticipated a 2019 virus, and therefore coerced the WHO to adopt this rule in 2015?

Suppose there is a new Coronavirus in 2021, and epidemiologists are able to trace its provenance back to sharts emerging from the anus of one Donald J. Trump. To be consistent, will you advocate that that virus be called the "Trump virus" rather than "Covid-21"?
  #229  
Old 03-23-2020, 04:07 PM
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The point being argued is that the CCP propaganda machine was something Trump was trying to fight against. His label of the virus as the Chinese virus was absolutely inflammatory and uncalled for, however it was originally named the Wuhan Virus, until WHO got wind evidently.

My point is simple, if something is racist NOW, then the same word(s) should be racist in retrospect, if it is still present and prevalent.

Also, I laugh at the "stigmatizes the region for which it was named". EXACTLY for that reason do I think it's a bullshit reason.


No one in Lyme, is "stigmatized", not one single person.


http://thenationshealth.aphapublicat...ntent/45/6/1.1
Quote:
In Old Lyme, Connecticut, John Sieviec, MSRS, chief sanitarian at the Old Lyme Health Department, has been diagnosed more than once with the tick-borne disease that was named after his community after a rash of cases were identified in the 1970s. Sieviec said there is a lingering stigma that visitors to Old Lyme will get sick with Lyme disease. But he noted it can be tricky to educate people about Lyme disease prevention without perpetuating misperceptions about his community.

“It’s a difficult balance,” he said. “But it’s something that’s always with us.”
  #230  
Old 03-23-2020, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
The point being argued is that the CCP propaganda machine was something Trump was trying to fight against. His label of the virus as the Chinese virus was absolutely inflammatory and uncalled for, however it was originally named the Wuhan Virus, until WHO got wind evidently.

My point is simple, if something is racist NOW, then the same word(s) should be racist in retrospect, if it is still present and prevalent.

Also, I laugh at the "stigmatizes the region for which it was named". EXACTLY for that reason do I think it's a bullshit reason.
It's not just about a region.
  #231  
Old 03-23-2020, 04:22 PM
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...can you explain to me what this has to do with the subject of the OP?

Do the alleged actions of Tedros and/or WHO make Trumps comments any less of a racist dogwhistle?
Trump calling SARS-2 (or whatever) 'the Chinese virus' is not a racist dogwhistle at all.

He refers to China, not 'people who are Chinese or of Chinese descent'.

I was trying to provide context. Some weeks ago, the official PRC news agencies called it the Wuhan virus. Based on the location. This and all of the above should put Trump's words in perspective.

If you are not convinced, then we disagree. Keep safe down there!
  #232  
Old 03-23-2020, 04:39 PM
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Trump calling SARS-2 (or whatever) 'the Chinese virus' is not a racist dogwhistle at all.
Try telling that to the Asian-Americans who are experiencing an uptick in physical and verbal attacks (see above link).

Last edited by Skywatcher; 03-23-2020 at 04:40 PM.
  #233  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:11 PM
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Try telling that to the Asian-Americans who are experiencing an uptick in physical and verbal attacks (see above link).
Try telling that to Asians who verbally attacked the United States and accused it of deliberate mass murder.

See how that works?

Last edited by Magiver; 03-23-2020 at 06:12 PM.
  #234  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:25 PM
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... however it was originally named the Wuhan Virus, until WHO got wind evidently.
Here is a news article from January 8 in which Chinese researchers called it a new coronavirus. Here is the first WHO report of the "novel coronavirus." Your assertion is bullshit.

Quote:
No one in Lyme, is "stigmatized", not one single person.
White people tend not to stigmatize white people. For example, how many white schoolkids get harassed for being the cause of Lyme disease? Zero. This has never happened. Chinese-American kids being accused of eating bats? Oh for sure.

The bubble of white privilege is blinding.

ETA: Hey Trump supporting consistency hobgoblins: was it really the Spanish flu? That's a good name for it, you suppose?

Last edited by Ravenman; 03-23-2020 at 06:26 PM.
  #235  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:29 PM
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Try telling that to Asians who verbally attacked the United States and accused it of deliberate mass murder.

See how that works?
And as it usually ends up working when Trump's stupid ignorant attempts to attack others end up attacking not only his alleged targets but the innocent, the Cheeto in chief ends up tossing defenders like you under the bus:

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/23/donal...irus-12445844/
Quote:
Donald Trump finally stops referring to coronavirus as ‘the Chinese Virus’
Quote:
Trump began Monday’s press conference by re-reading tweets he sent on Monday afternoon, saying: ‘It is very important that we totally protect our Asian American community in the United States, and all around the world. ‘They are amazing people, and the spreading of the Virus is NOT their fault in any way, shape, or form. They are working closely with us to get rid of it. WE WILL PREVAIL TOGETHER!’

Trump went on to use ‘the virus’ repeatedly during an almost 15-minute long speech, hours after California Governor Gavin Newsom said there had been a sharp upswing in attacks on Asian Americans in his state.

President Trump altered his language hours after California Governor Gavin Newsom announced an upswing in attacks on Asian Americans (Picture: AP) At one point, he appeared on the verge of using his old preferred term, saying ‘148 countries are infected by…,’ then completing his sentence with the phrase ‘the invisible scourge’ after a deep breath.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-23-2020 at 06:30 PM.
  #236  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:58 PM
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And as it usually ends up working when Trump's stupid ignorant attempts to attack others end up attacking not only his alleged targets but the innocent, the Cheeto in chief ends up tossing defenders like you under the bus:

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/23/donal...irus-12445844/
Trump responded to CHINA accusing the US of mass murder when in fact it was CHINA's fault the virus spread as a result of them keeping it quiet.

So, in response to someone shilling for mass murderers, you're welcome to your opinion as is the horse that opinion rode in on.
  #237  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:18 PM
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Trump responded to CHINA accusing the US of mass murder when in fact it was CHINA's fault the virus spread as a result of them keeping it quiet.
As mentioned, there were more direct ways to do that than the stupid way Trump choose early.

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So, in response to someone shilling for mass murderers, you're welcome to your opinion as is the horse that opinion rode in on.
You also keep using that straw man, I do not think it shows what you think it shows.

Better learn from Trump then regarding the proper naming conventions, or ignore what he is saying, it will help you too.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-23-2020 at 07:20 PM.
  #238  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:24 PM
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Trump calling SARS-2 (or whatever) 'the Chinese virus' is not a racist dogwhistle at all.

He refers to China, not 'people who are Chinese or of Chinese descent'.

I was trying to provide context. Some weeks ago, the official PRC news agencies called it the Wuhan virus. Based on the location. This and all of the above should put Trump's words in perspective.

If you are not convinced, then we disagree. Keep safe down there!
Of course he's not convinced, because the argument makes no sense. China and Trump are distinct entities. Why would looking at why China does something tell us why Trump does something? It's a complete non sequitur.

What you have to look at it is why Trump would say "Chinese virus." Why would he, the president of the United States with a personal grudge against China, rename a virus with an existing name? Why would a president with a history of blaming non-Americans for things deliberately ignore the CDC and WHO and call it after the country? People don't just change the names of things for no reason--the name change is about putting forth a different narrative.

Then there is his past history. This is the guy who attacks Mexican immigrants as being "rapists and drug dealers." He's the one who attacks all Muslims, rather than just ISIS. He's the guy who had his apartments not allow black people. He's the guy who has admitted that he thinks he has superior genes. He's the guy who was okay with putting children in cages because they weren't Americans. He's the guy who turned refugees into some sort of attack on our country.

The default, the null hypothesis for someone with that history is not to assume that "Well, this time, he's not being racist." When you see all that smoke, you don't ignore the fire. When both past history and current stated beliefs line up with racism, you don't ignore that.

This happens a lot with talks about racism. Unless you can prove racism beyond a shadow of a doubt, it gets ignored. That is a problem that extends beyond this discussion.

Last edited by BigT; 03-23-2020 at 07:26 PM.
  #239  
Old 03-23-2020, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
And as it usually ends up working when Trump's stupid ignorant attempts to attack others end up attacking not only his alleged targets but the innocent, the Cheeto in chief ends up tossing defenders like you under the bus:

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/23/donal...irus-12445844/
More from the BBC:
Quote:
Asked by a reporter why he had spoken out, Mr Trump said: "It seems that there could be a little bit of nasty language toward the Asian Americans in our country and I don't like that at all.
No SHIT.
  #240  
Old 03-23-2020, 09:42 PM
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As mentioned, there were more direct ways to do that than the stupid way Trump choose early.
Yes, not announcing to the world that your screw-up was a deliberate act of war committed by another country.
  #241  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:37 PM
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Of course he's not convinced, because the argument makes no sense. China and Trump are distinct entities. Why would looking at why China does something tell us why Trump does something? It's a complete non sequitur.

What you have to look at it is why Trump would say "Chinese virus." Why would he, the president of the United States with a personal grudge against China, rename a virus with an existing name? Why would a president with a history of blaming non-Americans for things deliberately ignore the CDC and WHO and call it after the country? People don't just change the names of things for no reason--the name change is about putting forth a different narrative.

Then there is his past history. This is the guy who attacks Mexican immigrants as being "rapists and drug dealers." He's the one who attacks all Muslims, rather than just ISIS. He's the guy who had his apartments not allow black people. He's the guy who has admitted that he thinks he has superior genes. He's the guy who was okay with putting children in cages because they weren't Americans. He's the guy who turned refugees into some sort of attack on our country.

The default, the null hypothesis for someone with that history is not to assume that "Well, this time, he's not being racist." When you see all that smoke, you don't ignore the fire. When both past history and current stated beliefs line up with racism, you don't ignore that.

This happens a lot with talks about racism. Unless you can prove racism beyond a shadow of a doubt, it gets ignored. That is a problem that extends beyond this discussion.
The default, from a position of intellectual honesty, is to asses all the facts of a situation, not just the ones that fit your own biases.

What you are doing is to deliberately strip a situation of context so you can derive your conclusions from a set of preconceived notions instead.

Of course the problem is compounded by the likelihood of your preconceived notions being the result of previous iterations of the same process.

Just so you know, willful ignorance plus prejudice is the bread and butter of racists too; so your approach is flawed both from an analytical usefulness point of view as well as from the moral one.
  #242  
Old 03-23-2020, 11:34 PM
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it was originally named the Wuhan Virus, until WHO got wind evidently.
Again, no.
The popular name for this virus is "coronavirus".
The formal name was not settled for a while, but was never "Wuhan virus".

Quote:
No one in Lyme, is "stigmatized", not one single person.
What's the logic here? You think people in the Ebola region must necessarily not feel stigma because people in Lyme don't?
  #243  
Old 03-23-2020, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd
Trump calling SARS-2 (or whatever) 'the Chinese virus' is not a racist dogwhistle at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywatcher
Try telling that to the Asian-Americans who are experiencing an uptick in physical and verbal attacks (see above link).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver
Try telling that to Asians who verbally attacked the United States and accused it of deliberate mass murder.
Magiver's response here ought to win some kind of logic prize.

A fuckdumb conspiracy theory in China means it's OK for the president to use racist dogwhistles and for abuse of the asian american community to happen.
  #244  
Old 03-24-2020, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
Magiver's response here ought to win some kind of logic prize.



A fuckdumb conspiracy theory in China means it's OK for the president to use racist dogwhistles and for abuse of the asian american community to happen.
But they verbally attacked the US! Where's your perspective?!
  #245  
Old 03-24-2020, 02:15 AM
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Magiver's response here ought to win some kind of logic prize.

A fuckdumb conspiracy theory in China means it's OK for the president to use racist dogwhistles and for abuse of the asian american community to happen.
That conspiracy theory is causing damage already, I posted this before:

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — Iran’s supreme leader refused U.S. assistance Sunday to fight the new coronavirus, citing an unfounded conspiracy theory claiming the virus could be man-made by America.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s comments come as Iran faces crushing U.S. sanctions blocking the country from selling its crude oil and accessing international financial markets.

But while Iranian civilian officials in recent days have increasingly criticized those sanctions, 80-year-old Khamenei instead chose to traffic in the same conspiracy theory increasingly used by Chinese officials about the new virus to deflect blame for the pandemic.


How do you propose to push back against the Chinese government claims that the virus didn't originate in China without pointing out that the virus did in fact originate in China?

China's spokesman for the Foreign Ministry is still peddling the idea the virus came from the US and it was covered up:
Lijian Zhao 赵立坚
@zlj517
US CDC admitted some #COVID19 patients were misdiagnosed as flu during 2019 flu season. 34 million infected & 20000 died. If #COVID19 began last September, & US has been lack of testing ability, how many would have been infected? US should find out when patient zero appeared.


the lizard king
@mamaxbea
I figured out why everyone is so angry at me today. A spokesperson from The Chinese Foreign Ministry (?) RT’d my shower thoughts on COVID-19. Lmfao FOR THE RECORD, AGAIN, literally nothing I said had any scientific merit. Pls stop taking it seriously and pls stop yelling at me.


That would had been this retweet by Zhao of a thread with thousands of people buying into the conspiracy theory.

Reading through those conversations obvious pro-China, pro CT propaganda accounts are everywhere, rather easy to spot too, join in dates starting in February, account names using a name plus a string of random numbers or just random numbers and characters.

And it's not just the US being targeted, now Italy is being thrown under suspicion:
Global Times
@globaltimesnews
#Italy may have had an unexplained strain of pneumonia as early as November and December 2019 with highly suspected symptoms of #COVID19, reports said.


There is a propaganda operation at work, how do you propose to address that? Because it's already having negative effects and the longer it goes on, among other things, it will create more antagonism against China, Chinese people and Asians in general.

And that IMO serves the CCP's goals just fine.

If you read the responses to Zhao's and Global Times, don't you think the people getting angry wouldn't react like that regardless of what Trump says?

Because a sure way of getting people mad as hell is to do something against them , then accuse them of being guilty of the thing just done against them and play the victim on top of everything.

Trump could spontaneously quantum tunnel into the Sun's core tomorrow and the CCP actions would still be instigating a backlash of anger and resentment, turning a blind eye to it will only exacerbate the situation.
  #246  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:31 AM
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That conspiracy theory is causing damage already, I posted this before:
Conspiracy theories are absolutely rife in the modern world and always cause damage. I've ranted about it plenty of times before.
Any major event now is encircled by countless nonsense CTs, many of which don't even make logical sense and yet do indeed influence governments and social behaviour.

Covid has plenty of conspiracy theories, readily debunked. The "America origin" is just one of them.

One difference of course is the Chinese foreign minister giving JAQ-style support of this CT. He's an idiot and should probably be fired.

In terms of what the US can do, my advice is:

1. Reject the CT and pressure the Chinese government to do the same with old-fashioned diplomacy
2. How about not pushing silly conspiracy theories yourself?
3. How about not trying to rename a virus to deflect criticism and stoke up further bigotry?

Quote:
How do you propose to push back against the Chinese government claims that the virus didn't originate in China without pointing out that the virus did in fact originate in China?
Point it out by all means, but don't try to rename a virus, that's being silly.

Quote:
That would had been this retweet by Zhao of a thread with thousands of people buying into the conspiracy theory.
Thousands in a population of 1.3 billion. How many likes and retweets does Trump typically get, even when he's saying something demonstrably false?
I live in China; I've yet to meet one person who takes the America-origin theory seriously, and in most cases I don't think people have even heard of it.
I didn't come across it on Chinese social media and the news, I heard it first on Western news, then had to search for references to it in Chinese media.
The narrative that "The ChineseTM believe America planted this virus" is a gross mischaracterization.

Last edited by Mijin; 03-24-2020 at 03:35 AM.
  #247  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:29 PM
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After trump has dropped it, Mike Pompeo still is trying to throw "Wuhan virus" on the wall. From the article it sounds like the G7 were having none of it:

"The German magazine Der Spiegel, quoting anonymous diplomats, said that the joint statement was scuttled by Pompeo's insistence that it use the term "Wuhan virus" -- a formulation frowned upon by medical professionals who say it is stigmatizing.

Pompeo did not deny the report when asked about it, saying that each minister would speak separately but that they had a "common understanding" on the health and economic crisis caused by the "Wuhan virus.""
  #248  
Old 03-25-2020, 11:53 PM
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Just send all Caucasians back to Caucasia and be done with it. But beware verbally-spread Caucasian cooties. The White House is only one hotspot.
  #249  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:17 AM
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A fuckdumb conspiracy theory in China means it's OK for the president to use racist dogwhistles and for abuse of the asian american community to happen.
It's a Representative of the Chinese government accusing the US of mass murder.

It's a big fucking deal to do this. It's massively arrogant to do it when the spread of the virus was the fault of the Chinese government. I'm glad we have a president who stands up to politically bullies.

I'd suggest you write a letter to the editor and verbally blast your government but you would assuredly lose points on your citizenship rating.
  #250  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:50 AM
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It's a Representative of the Chinese government accusing the US of mass murder.

It's a big fucking deal to do this. It's massively arrogant to do it when the spread of the virus was the fault of the Chinese government. I'm glad we have a president who stands up to politically bullies.

I'd suggest you write a letter to the editor and verbally blast your government but you would assuredly lose points on your citizenship rating.
A foreign minister supported a fuckdumb CT. Meanwhile the US president often supports such CTs such as e.g. Global warming is a Chinese hoax.

But I am not the one saying two fuckdumbs makes a right. I have denounced what Lijian Zhao is doing. Why can you not do the same about Trump?
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