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  #1  
Old 03-25-2020, 01:18 PM
Dunmurry is offline
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Were people in Britain who voted to leave the EU selfish?


Well in Britain there is an idea that some people had that people who voted in the Brexit referendum to leave were selfish. They didn't care about the impact on the economy or travel to different countries. They said This is an opportunity to get out so let's get out and the EU referendum debate was very bad tempered and people who voted to leave in the Brexit referendum were selfish as they were old but it would be young people who would have to live with the legacy of that decision. Do you think it was bad of them to decide to leave in that way? What do you to think of this?
  #2  
Old 03-25-2020, 01:43 PM
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Do you think it was bad of them to decide to leave in that way? What do you to think of this?
Regardless of what you think of them, they were in the majority of voters. Do you think that if the majority of the voters agree on something they can be selfish? You may disagree with them, but enlightened self-interest != selfish.
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Old 03-25-2020, 01:59 PM
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Regardless of what you think of them, they were in the majority of voters. Do you think that if the majority of the voters agree on something they can be selfish? You may disagree with them, but enlightened self-interest != selfish.
Of course. Suppose a majority of voters (say those with last names beginning A-T) vote that their tax rates should be lowered and other's tax rates raised. Don't you think that is selfish?
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Old 03-25-2020, 02:12 PM
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It's shockingly selfish for people to vote in accordance with their interests, especially when they differ from your own.
  #5  
Old 03-25-2020, 02:30 PM
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Some were selfish, most were just racist xenophobes.
  #6  
Old 03-25-2020, 03:26 PM
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No they were not, and DrDeth you are exactly the reason that you lost the vote, instead of addressing the issues you simply paint those with a rational and different view with a simplistic and ignorant outlook.

You are at least as much responsible for the divide as any person who voted to leave. I have a right to vote, I do not have to explain myself - though I can do so in clear and logical terms.

I am not prepared to rake over the debate again, however, I have been around a wee while, I know what has taken place since before we joined, I also am aware of a number of EU migrant worker grants that are offered to UK companies to employ EU citizens to the cost of local workforces with the money that we paid into the EU as part of our EU levy.(the EU migrant worker support grant offers grants of up to £12500 per migrant worker - I have seen the invitations directly - I live in area of huge unemployment and this is not acceptable at all)

There are other issues to do with offending behaviour, where I see on a daily basis some of the most serious and violent offenders in prison who have decided to try their luck over here, we are not allowed to stop them coming in, we cannot vet them before they enter our borders and we have immense difficulty in deporting them, or denying entry.

It turns out all too often that evidence given during the court case sentencing procedures they have absolutely shocking criminal records in their own countries - I personally have to deal with them every day. I have seen sex offenders, manslaughter, murder, drug dealers all with previous convictions in their own EU states come into my workshop - and we let them in through the EU freedom of movement rules - it is utterly stupid.

Given that this is a US centric message board - I wonder how US posters would feel about our inability to stop EU offenders coming into the UK without at least a criminal record check based upon the EU freedom of movement rules, maybe someone would comment upon that.

Yes we can eventually remove them, but the process is so convoluted that it is effectively impossible except in theory only.

It is not racist to decide that your own government should be the final arbiter of what makes it into legislation - yet 80% of UK law comes in the form of EU directives which leaves our parliament non-sovereign in our own country - a right that our masses strove to achieve for well over a thousand years - and this is not something that should ever be given over lightly on the basis that we can maybe get some other nations to vote with us in a foreign executive.

If I dislike incoming legislation from the EU I cannot hold it to account in my vote directly and instead can only hope the EU electoral college might go my way - this makes the EU unaccountable to the very voters over which it holds dominion.

By leaving the EU it means that our politicians can be held directly to account by UK voters, it means that political campaigning in the UK actually has meaning, it means that I am a responsible person with my right to campaign intact.

The EU is none of those things, it is currently left leaning which means it tends to enact EU directives more in tune with my outlook - however, this will not always be the case and when a right leaning EU starts pushing out directives which the UK must enact into law then I will not be able to effectively campaign against it because the seat of power is now removed to a level where I can only hope to influence a third party, which in turn could easily be out of step with EU legislators.

This is not racism, this is about who governs the UK - your attitude is simplistic and childish.

Last edited by casdave; 03-25-2020 at 03:31 PM.
  #7  
Old 03-25-2020, 03:28 PM
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Enlightened self-interest? Selfish? Racist?

I thought the Brexit election was decided by the Gullible.
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Old 03-25-2020, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by casdave View Post
No they were not, and DrDeth you are exactly the reason that you lost the vote, instead of addressing the issues you simply paint those with a rational and different view with a simplistic and ignorant outlook.

You are at least as much responsible for the divide as any person who voted to leave. I have a right to vote, I do not have to explain myself - though I can do so in clear and logical terms.
....

This is not racism, this is about who governs the UK - your attitude is simplistic and childish.
I am a American, so I didnt vote over there.

Certainly there were some that felt that way, but how far down do we go? Should Wale have the Right to Self Govern? How about Wessex? Or London? or Fordwich? Regionalism isnt good for the World, and it's bad for the economy.

However, altho I am sure a few felt that way, the vote was powered by racist xenophobe bigots, not thinking Britons. The same thinking that put trump in the White house, mind you.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-war-channel-4
Vote Leave relied on racism. Brexit: The Uncivil War disguised that ugly truth
The EU’s supranational institutions, demonised by Brexiters, are “too complicated, too remote” to be the focus of the campaign. It needs a “simple message repeated over and over and over”, if it is to appeal to the “three million extra voters that the other side have no idea exist” who Cummings’ new friend Zack Massingham, of the shadowy AggregateIQ, promises can tip Vote Leave over the line....What the film doesn’t tell us is how low he went to push this. It shouldn’t be a secret, since Vote Leave repeated the same election broadcast (now pulled from YouTube) on all terrestrial TV channels throughout the last 30 days of the campaign. Following lurid graphics representing the threat of 76 million Turks joining the EU and coming to the UK, it climaxed with a split screen showing (staying in the EU) a surly foreign man elbowing a tearful elderly white woman out of the queue in A&E, while (leaving the EU) the woman is contentedly treated without having to wait. It was a homage to Enoch Powell, whose 1968 speech highlighted a fearful old white woman living in a street taken over by “negroes”.



Cummings’ 1bn Facebook ads picked up the broadcast’s themes and graphics, but were “micro-targeted”. Less racist voters got pictures of Boris Johnson (“I’m pro-immigration, but above all I’m pro-controlled immigration”), while the “3 million” got ads shouting “5.23 MILLION MORE IMMIGRANTS ARE MOVING TO THE UK! GOOD NEWS???” and when they clicked “No” were bombarded with scores of variations on the theme. It was the same story with leaflets, whistleblower Shahmir Sanni says: “The campaign was always talking about immigration. The most proud moment for many of Vote Leave’s staff was how well the Turkey leaflet did.”


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-018-0214-5

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a8078586.html
  #9  
Old 03-25-2020, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by casdave View Post
No they were not, and DrDeth you are exactly the reason that you lost the vote, instead of addressing the issues you simply paint those with a rational and different view with a simplistic and ignorant outlook.

You are at least as much responsible for the divide as any person who voted to leave. I have a right to vote, I do not have to explain myself - though I can do so in clear and logical terms.

I am not prepared to rake over the debate again, however, I have been around a wee while, I know what has taken place since before we joined, I also am aware of a number of EU migrant worker grants that are offered to UK companies to employ EU citizens to the cost of local workforces with the money that we paid into the EU as part of our EU levy.(the EU migrant worker support grant offers grants of up to £12500 per migrant worker - I have seen the invitations directly - I live in area of huge unemployment and this is not acceptable at all)

There are other issues to do with offending behaviour, where I see on a daily basis some of the most serious and violent offenders in prison who have decided to try their luck over here, we are not allowed to stop them coming in, we cannot vet them before they enter our borders and we have immense difficulty in deporting them, or denying entry.

It turns out all too often that evidence given during the court case sentencing procedures they have absolutely shocking criminal records in their own countries - I personally have to deal with them every day. I have seen sex offenders, manslaughter, murder, drug dealers all with previous convictions in their own EU states come into my workshop - and we let them in through the EU freedom of movement rules - it is utterly stupid.

Given that this is a US centric message board - I wonder how US posters would feel about our inability to stop EU offenders coming into the UK without at least a criminal record check based upon the EU freedom of movement rules, maybe someone would comment upon that.

Yes we can eventually remove them, but the process is so convoluted that it is effectively impossible except in theory only.

It is not racist to decide that your own government should be the final arbiter of what makes it into legislation - yet 80% of UK law comes in the form of EU directives which leaves our parliament non-sovereign in our own country - a right that our masses strove to achieve for well over a thousand years - and this is not something that should ever be given over lightly on the basis that we can maybe get some other nations to vote with us in a foreign executive.


If I dislike incoming legislation from the EU I cannot hold it to account in my vote directly and instead can only hope the EU electoral college might go my way - this makes the EU unaccountable to the very voters over which it holds dominion.

By leaving the EU it means that our politicians can be held directly to account by UK voters, it means that political campaigning in the UK actually has meaning, it means that I am a responsible person with my right to campaign intact.

The EU is none of those things, it is currently left leaning which means it tends to enact EU directives more in tune with my outlook - however, this will not always be the case and when a right leaning EU starts pushing out directives which the UK must enact into law then I will not be able to effectively campaign against it because the seat of power is now removed to a level where I can only hope to influence a third party, which in turn could easily be out of step with EU legislators.

This is not racism, this is about who governs the UK - your attitude is simplistic and childish.
Given the EU is as democratic if not moreso than the UK itself, this argument is nonsense. You mention that "80% of UK law comes in the form of EU directives" while somehow failing to mention that well over 90% of those EU directives were either already aligned with UK law or drafted by the UK. The UK elected MEPs just like every other EU nation, and the UK's elected officials appointed other representatives to the various EU bodies just like every other EU country. We are no more oppressed by the yoke of the EU than we are by Parliament itself. And if your argument is merely that this is one level of democracy more than you like, then you're basically reverting to the devolutionary rhetoric that the Scottish have been using for years.

There is no one reason that the Brexit vote succeeded, but apart from the very real undercurrent of xenophobia casdave is simultaneously frantically handwaving away and subtly demonstrating, a major factor was simply this: the Leave campaign lied. A lot.

We were told the EU were oppressing our sovereignty, forcing us to ban prawn cocktail crisps and straight bananas and all sorts of other things the UK didn't want to submit to. This wasn't true.

We were told that the NHS would get an additional £350m a week and that all the economically deprived areas of the country that were receiving EU subsidies would have that funding covered. That wasn't true either.

We were told that we would able to negotiate better trade deals with the EU and with the rest of the world somehow, despite having greatly reduced negotiating power and having to compete with the rump EU. We were told we had a strong negotiating team and position. We were told we had a clear plan. These have already been demonstrated to be ludicrously delusional if not outright lies.

We were told that the EU needed the UK more than the UK needed the EU, and that the UK would be free to source its imports from anywhere in the world while the EU would be desperate to keep importing its goods from the UK. Which, again, was shown to be either delusional or dishonest.

We were told we'd have more control of our borders, while the fact that refugees were piling up at Calais rather than sneaking into the UK due to an EU agreement with France was blithely ignored.

We were told that the projections of economic detriment from the Remain campaign were nonsense, even though they were supported in every economic model including the ERM's. We were told that companies would want to stay in the UK under the new regime, companies that have now moved thousands of jobs to other EU countries.

We were told that the entire population of Turkey would be coming to use the NHS and that foreign rape gangs would be roaming the streets of our neighbourhoods (okay, that was just Nigel, who is a lunatic - but a lunatic with a big following amongst the Leave camp).

And that's not even getting into Theresa May trying to do an end-run around Parliament (how's that "sovereignty" and "democracy" thing working out?) and Boris promising not to pursue a no-deal Brexit or prorogue Parliament, both of which he promptly did.

So many lies. So many things that turned out to be utterly wrong, with Leavers all the while complaining that the reasons reality wasn't comporting with what they had been promised was that Remoaners were sabotaging everything. And the Remain campaign? Was led tepidly by David Cameron, who never bothered to counter the torrent of bullshit from the Leave campaign. Who put him in charge of that?

So - simplistic and childish? Yes, the Leave campaign was. And remains so.
  #10  
Old 03-25-2020, 04:29 PM
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Yup, that's the way, quote left wing sources and opinion pieces and completely ignore any of the issues I have raised - that's how to argue your point.

You have read some very biased articles and decided - yup that's racist all over, I suggest that racism is a far more significant issue in the US and it seems to be the pony you are riding.

You haven't addressed the concern over borders that are completely free for any miscreant in the EU to cross - yet the US ensures that all those crossing its frontiers are checked and excluded if they do not meet the US specifications - therefore the US must be doing it because it is racist and not for any other reason whatsoever - that is, by your logic.

Why should we be governed from the EU? Why shouldn't I want UK to be its own sovereign nation? You have not addressed my point that nations can only be sovereign if they enact laws within their borders - whereas 80% of those in the UK are actually determined in the EU, its obvious you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about the EU or the UK legislative process but somehow you feel qualified to blithely ignore any concerns about our loss of our own legislature - offensive? - you bet, how would US citizens feel about me, British, condemning the US federal and state legislative system without actually having any knowledge whatever of the checks and balances? That is your ignorant take on what you are doing in relation to ours.

Only three nations make a net contribution to the EU budget and we are one of those, so if we campaign for a reduction we get out voted every time by the 24 other nations who take money out. You might be surprise that the Scandis actually proposed a .79% EU reduction in the EU budget because of the loss of UK money and it was thrown out by the EU takers - it means that there will only be two contributors having to stump up the entire EU budget, can't see their taxpayers being too happy about that - can you?

You are obviously economically illiterate

Anyway, being a US citizen does not give you the right to make accusations of EU voters on issues about which you clearly have absolutely zero understanding - you might be surprised at this, but I have the right to vote in whichever way I choose for whatever reason I choose, as did every other voter in the UK and we did - we voted out and it is none of your business so I suggest you keep your interfering little economic colonialist nose out of our affairs.


How dare you cast aspersions upon an entire nation simply because you have issues of your own - your stereotypes are exactly the type of thinking that informs the closed mindset of the racist - you actually have the very same thought processes of those you accuse of racism - you are a small narrow minded closed thinking biased person sitting on the outside claiming some sort of special knowledge on a subject about which you actually know zero - so your only recourse is to dig up a few dodgy quotes to pretend you have an insight to disguise your ignorance.

Well be assured, we are all ignorant about something, so you are in a large majority, its just that when faced with those who are better informed and involved we are not all stupid enough to persist in our delusions and maintain our our artificially induced position - you know jack about the subject, get out of it.
  #11  
Old 03-25-2020, 04:40 PM
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More than selfish, generally they were the very worst of what they accused Remainers of being: Brexiters are among the most arrogant people I've ever seen.

Nearly anyone remotely professionally involved in trade, science, medicine, education, finance, industry, diplomacy, administration, defence: leaving the EU is fraught with major risks with very, very little positives, and those positives get progressively smaller the harder the form of Brexit you take, with hard Brexit having no positives and loads more negatives.

Brexiters: says you! My hunch is as good as your knowledge! Here's a single person who disagrees with you, and despite my not bothering to look at his credentials, he trumps everything you say!

Remainers: what the fuck? How are we going to do this? Haven't you considered this? What about Y? Would you at least consider Z as recognition of the narrow victory you had?

Brexiters: fuck off! You lost! Despite our empty pleas to unite the nation, we're going to treat the 48% as a conquered people with no rights to resist us! And anyone in the state who tries to uphold the constitution, rule of law, or the rights of minorities is a traitor who should be shot, or sacked, or shot then sacked!

Remainers: But your claims are based on complete lies and are internal contradictory! How can you 'open up to the world' while simultaneously 'take back control'? How can you claim the EU is forcing no deal on you while simultaneously insisting no deal is no problem and in fact what the 51% voted for? What about the fact that no deal was dismissed as lunacy?

Brexiters: fuck you! You're so arrogant for speaking up against us! How dare you! Now let me go drink cups of your tears! I'm never arrogant!
  #12  
Old 03-25-2020, 04:44 PM
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Gyrate

There were plenty of lies on the Remain campaign, plus the benefit of an incredibly biased broadcast medium, and despite all the weight of our claimed betters and opinion formers, we still voted out.

Actually a simple message is a viable way to campaign, distilling issues and gtting your point across in politics is essential.

Like it or not, control over our borders matters, without control we are not a nation - example - the EU decided to allot member states with a share of refugees crossing into the EU, yet it was not debated in our parliament it was imposed - the very definition of loss of border control.

Yes we should have the right to carry out border checks on EU citizens for criminal history and deny them entry - are you suggesting that we should forego that right? Well as long as we are in the EU we do not have that right - and as I previously mentions - and which you too blithely ignore - I have personal experience of what that means in terms of UK offending and the criminal justice system, do you have such experience? no you do not it is no xenophobic nor is it racist not to want EU criminals set up here in the UK but Remainers are too ignorant of what is going in in prisons or do not wish to look.

Remainers by and large have latched on to transparently false claims by the more idiotic elements of the Leave campaign and blame the Remain failure entirely on the gullibility of Leavers and you assume we were all persuaded by these claims. This enable you to claim the perceived higher moral ground without ever actually analysing properly the real reasons why the majority wanted out - it is more comforting for Remainers to believe their own myth of their righteousness instead of actually looking at uncomfortable truths about why we collectively voted to Leave.

Remainers are largely like children who cannot have their own way so they just shout everyone down instead to listening, you continue with your delusions of truth and righteousness and you'll continue to be like the Labour party - convinced of the truth of their arguments and that its the voters who got it wrong - keep up that attitude and you will Remain out of power and influence - Remainers simply do not get it.
  #13  
Old 03-25-2020, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casdave View Post
Yup, that's the way, quote left wing sources and opinion pieces and completely ignore any of the issues I have raised - that's how to argue your point.
Projection.

Quote:
You have read some very biased articles and decided - yup that's racist all over, I suggest that racism is a far more significant issue in the US and it seems to be the pony you are riding.
Projection again.

Quote:
You haven't addressed the concern over borders that are completely free for any miscreant in the EU to cross
False.

Quote:
- yet the US ensures that all those crossing its frontiers are checked and excluded if they do not meet the US specifications
Just like our border inside the EU was. You know the one border which was unchecked? The Irish border under the GFA.

Quote:
- therefore the US must be doing it because it is racist and not for any other reason whatsoever - that is, by your logic.
No, because you're starting with a false claim. A false claim clung to from racist motivations.

Quote:
Why should we be governed from the EU?
We weren't.

Quote:
Why shouldn't I want UK to be its own sovereign nation?
In the EU, we were fully sovereign.

Quote:
You have not addressed my point that nations can only be sovereign if they enact laws within their borders -
Literally no country on earth does this, because modern international trade and standards requires we sign up to international bodies that make laws transcending borders.

Quote:
whereas 80% of those in the UK are actually determined in the EU,
FALSE.

[quote[its obvious you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about the EU or the UK legislative process but somehow you feel qualified to blithely ignore any concerns about our loss of our own legislature[/quote]

Projection again. Brexiters cannot lecture on the undermining of our Parliament when they decried judges doing their jobs as enemies of the people and openly called for the government to muzzle Parliament in an entirely illegal manner to get their way.

Quote:
- offensive? - you bet, how would US citizens feel about me, British, condemning the US federal and state legislative system without actually having any knowledge whatever of the checks and balances? That is your ignorant take on what you are doing in relation to ours.
About the same as I feel about you commenting on the EU without actually having any knowledge of how it works, I imagine.

Quote:
Only three nations make a net contribution to the EU budget and we are one of those, so if we campaign for a reduction we get out voted every time by the 24 other nations who take money out.
And yet the UK led a very successful revision of EU finances making what it does spend be spent much more in the fashion that we desired. Pity that gets ignored by Brexiters.

Quote:
You might be surprise that the Scandis actually proposed a .79% EU reduction in the EU budget because of the loss of UK money and it was thrown out by the EU takers - it means that there will only be two contributors having to stump up the entire EU budget, can't see their taxpayers being too happy about that - can you?
So which is it - are we governed by the EU, or is it in fact a group of nations of which the UK is one?

I find it hilarious that Brexiters bitch about how the UK is somehow made a fool of within the EU but somehow insist it'll be different outside, where Russia, China and the US exist, alongside the EU.

Quote:
You are obviously economically illiterate
Ahhhhahhh

Quote:
Anyway, being a US citizen does not give you the right to make accusations of EU voters on issues about which you clearly have absolutely zero understanding - you might be surprised at this, but I have the right to vote in whichever way I choose for whatever reason I choose, as did every other voter in the UK and we did - we voted out and it is none of your business so I suggest you keep your interfering little economic colonialist nose out of our affairs.
Oh mate, you're going to be so disappointed when it turns out Brexit means a choice between being America's bitch or the EU's.

Quote:
How dare you cast aspersions upon an entire nation
Less than half a nation actually.

Last edited by Malden Capell; 03-25-2020 at 04:50 PM.
  #14  
Old 03-25-2020, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by casdave View Post
Gyrate

There were plenty of lies on the Remain campaign,
Not remotely true. Don't even try to equivocate. Brexit is entirely devoid of any factual basis whatsoever. Nothing at all.

Quote:
plus the benefit of an incredibly biased broadcast medium, and despite all the weight of our claimed betters and opinion formers, we still voted out.
Oh PLEASE. Brexit had a horrifyingly biased printed press. The broadcasters are obligated to at least try to be impartial.

They failed because they gave equal credence to pro-Brexit forces. If they had been impartial, anything beyond EEA membership would have been rightly dismissed as flat-earth nonsense.

Quote:
Actually a simple message is a viable way to campaign, distilling issues and gtting your point across in politics is essential.
So effective, that even now no Brexiter has the faintest fucking clue what Brexit means.

Quote:
Like it or not, control over our borders matters, without control we are not a nation - example - the EU decided to allot member states with a share of refugees crossing into the EU, yet it was not debated in our parliament it was imposed - the very definition of loss of border control.
FALSE.

Quote:
Yes we should have the right to carry out border checks on EU citizens for criminal history and deny them entry - are you suggesting that we should forego that right? Well as long as we are in the EU we do not have that right - and as I previously mentions - and which you too blithely ignore - I have personal experience of what that means in terms of UK offending and the criminal justice system, do you have such experience? no you do not it is no xenophobic nor is it racist not to want EU criminals set up here in the UK but Remainers are too ignorant of what is going in in prisons or do not wish to look.
FALSE. We already had this right.

Quote:
Remainers by and large have latched on to transparently false claims by the more idiotic elements of the Leave campaign and blame the Remain failure entirely on the gullibility of Leavers and you assume we were all persuaded by these claims. This enable you to claim the perceived higher moral ground without ever actually analysing properly the real reasons why the majority wanted out - it is more comforting for Remainers to believe their own myth of their righteousness instead of actually looking at uncomfortable truths about why we collectively voted to Leave.
Those 'most idiotic elements of the leave campaign' are now in charge of the government, the print media, and the official Leave campaign.

Seriously, what of the 'reasonable' Leave campaign has survived to be delivered?

Quote:
Remainers are largely like children who cannot have their own way so they just shout everyone down instead to listening, you continue with your delusions of truth and righteousness and you'll continue to be like the Labour party - convinced of the truth of their arguments and that its the voters who got it wrong - keep up that attitude and you will Remain out of power and influence - Remainers simply do not get it.
Oh bless! What did I say? Brexiters are by far the most arrogant.

Last edited by Malden Capell; 03-25-2020 at 04:55 PM.
  #15  
Old 03-25-2020, 05:08 PM
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I'm heading out now, but I just want to affirm the point for casdave.

I see loads of ink spilled to implore Remainers to listen to poor dear sweet Brexiters who so badly want their Brexit, or they'll be so terribly upset, and won't Remainers listen to why they want it so much?

But I have never, ever had anyone ask Brexiters to do the same. They are never asked to stop a moment and listen to why Remainers are terrified. All counterarguments are dismissed with a blend of conspiracy theory, dismissive sore-loserdom, or being brainwashed by cosmopolitan liberals, or being paid EU shills.

They're never asked to consider, just for a second, that Remainers may have a good reason to be scared, and maybe it's the duty of the winning side, if they're truly serious about bringing the nation back together, to bring Remainers on board by showing how Brexit will succeed and how they'll work with Remainers to make the best of things.

If anything, they're indulged, indeed encouraged, to grind Remainers into the dirt and jump on their limp bodies as enemies of the country.

So please, casdave, go right ahead and keep repeating your broken record about poor hard-done-by Brexiters being frustrated. But you're being frustrated by the true majority.

And the fact that even you, in four years, has not been able to articulate what Brexit is beyond vague, meaningless horseshit about 'borders' and 'sovereignty', and made no efforts to discuss practical things like trade, competition, and acknowledging what tradeoffs will take place, is extremely telling.

Brexiters like you have refused to plan and refused to be specific, because in planning and being specific, Brexit always collapses.

Brexit has already failed because of this. You cannot square the circle. 'Open Britain' is not reconcilable with the 'control the borders' autarky that many Brexiters, particularly among the working class, demand.

It's not arrogant to point this out. It's truth to power. The actions of Brexiters speak volumes about what they know, deep down, about the insecurities of their church.
  #16  
Old 03-25-2020, 05:19 PM
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I think that "deluded" was the better descriptor than "selfish". The people of the UK were told that they could have all of the benefits but none of the responsibilities of EU membership. If this were possible, then they'd be fools not to take it. But of course, as everyone found out, it isn't possible. Some still claim that it only failed because Germany was being a vindictive meany-pants, but Germany was just behaving in the perfectly sensible way that any perfectly sensible person would expect them to behave.

Once it became clear to everyone that the Brexit the people voted for was a unicorn, Parliament should have simply ignored the non-binding referendum in favor of the requirements that really were binding on them, and rescinded Brexit. But they were apparently all afraid to do so.
  #17  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:25 PM
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...
You have read some very biased articles and decided - yup that's racist all over, I suggest that racism is a far more significant issue in the US and it seems to be the pony you are riding.

You haven't addressed the concern over borders that are completely free for any miscreant in the EU to cross - yet the US ensures that all those crossing its frontiers are checked and excluded if they do not meet the US specifications - therefore the US must be doing it because it is racist and not for any other reason whatsoever - that is, by your logic.

Why should we be governed from the EU? Why shouldn't I want UK to be its own sovereign nation? You have not addressed my point that nations can only be sovereign if they enact laws within their borders - whereas 80% of those in the UK are actually determined in the EU, its obvious you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about the EU or the UK legislative process but somehow you feel qualified to blithely ignore any concerns about our loss of our own legislature - offensive? - you bet, how would US citizens feel about me, British, condemning the US federal and state legislative system without actually having any knowledge whatever of the checks and balances? That is your ignorant take on what you are doing in relation to ours.
...


Anyway, being a US citizen does not give you the right to make accusations of EU voters on issues about which you clearly have absolutely zero understanding - you might be surprised at this, but I have the right to vote in whichever way I choose for whatever reason I choose, as did every other voter in the UK and we did - we voted out and it is none of your business so I suggest you keep your interfering little economic colonialist nose out of our affairs.

....
Racism is a significant issue in the USA. One party lets itself be run by it's racist members.

Yes, we do check borders- we only have two, one for Canada (only checked on major roads, you can walk across in many places) and of course Mexico. But we dont have any border rules between California (which is about the size of your island0 and Washington or Arizona, for instance. Do you have a closed border between Wales and England?

Why should Wales be governed from Whitehall? Why should Wessex? Why should Fordwich? (That's the smallest town I could find in England)

Note that the EU is about the size of the USA, and the British Isle about the size of our 3rd largest state. The whole EU doesnt even have close to twice the population of the USA.


"...how would US citizens feel about me, British, condemning the US federal and state legislative system..." Please. our UK members have no qualms at all about attacking President trump.

But yeah, you post does prove it's Xenophobia.

My cites- one of which was British mind you- does also prove the votes were due to racism.
  #18  
Old 03-25-2020, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
So - simplistic and childish? Yes, the Leave campaign was. And remains so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by casdave View Post
That is your ignorant take on what you are doing in relation to ours.

You are obviously economically illiterate

Well be assured, we are all ignorant about something, so you are in a large majority, its just that when faced with those who are better informed and involved we are not all stupid enough to persist in our delusions and maintain our our artificially induced position - you know jack about the subject, get out of it.
Both of you, knock it off. I know that both sides in the Brexit "discussion" tend to get emotional, but keep your personal attacks out of this forum.

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  #19  
Old 03-25-2020, 09:10 PM
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To the posters who snuck in while I was battling slow connections, you may also knock it off.

EVERYONE, back away from the personal attacks!

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  #20  
Old 03-26-2020, 02:30 AM
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Well in Britain there is an idea that some people had that people who voted in the Brexit referendum to leave were selfish. They didn't care about the impact on the economy or travel to different countries. They said This is an opportunity to get out so let's get out and the EU referendum debate was very bad tempered and people who voted to leave in the Brexit referendum were selfish as they were old but it would be young people who would have to live with the legacy of that decision. Do you think it was bad of them to decide to leave in that way? What do you to think of this?
Could you give us an example of a selfish vote in a country that had universal suffrage that we could compare/contrast the Brexit vote against? My definition of a selfish voter is one who believes his voting choice will benefit him personally, but will be bad for the nation overall. I can think of mathematical based models where that could happen, but I’m not aware of any real world circumstance where that’s occurred. If a majority of people are voting in their own self-interest, then it’s hard to objectively demonstrate that their voting against the national interest.

Specific to Brexit, whether or not you agree with the decision of the Brexit voters, my belief is that they voted for what they thought was best for the UK. I can accept that some voters might think that reduced immigration would benefit their employment prospects, but those same voters would also believe that increased domestic employment was good for the UK. Likewise, some Brexit voters might have been “Little Britain” voters who were hoping for a return to some nostalgic idyllic version of the country, but they’d believe that version was what best for the country, not just for themselves.

Which aspect of the Brexit vote do you believe contains an element where a large segment of the UK population is better off under Brexit, but the population as a whole is worse off? Maybe valuing UK independence from the EU over the risk of Northern Ireland leaving the UK could be considered “selfish” for the above criteria, but even then I think people who felt that way still believed their opinion was the best one for the national interest.
  #21  
Old 03-26-2020, 03:31 AM
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As Malden Capell has already covered the main points of your response and as I've been asked to dial it back, I'll just pick up on one more point from your original email.

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Originally Posted by casdave View Post
It is not racist to decide that your own government should be the final arbiter of what makes it into legislation
Here's the thing: the European Parliament was also "our own government". We elected Members to it. We were represented on all major decision-making bodies within the EU. The EU was not "the Other". The EU was, in part, us too. And we had a vast amount of influence on it, as I've already mentioned, despite some of the representatives we sent on our behalf.

That a disturbing number of Brits chose to elect corrupt buffoons to represent us in the European Parliament is not the fault of the EU, most of whose members sent intelligent, capable representatives. That's all on us - or at least on the people who believed Nigel Farage was anything other than a cowardly little chancer (this is a man who threw fish into the Thames to protest EU fishing policy but didn't turn up to the EU Fisheries Committee meetings where he could actually have had input into those policies). We have done much to drive EU policies and we could well have had a stronger voice...but we decided not to. Not the EU. We, democratically, did that. And we did it out of pettiness and spite.

Again - if you want to argue that the various EU bodies were democracy at too far a remove, that's one thing - but that's not the argument you're making, and if you were it would be an argument that supported greater and greater degrees of devolution. But the argument you are making - well, it isn't really an argument other than "I don't like the EU".
  #22  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:10 AM
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Those who I know that voted to leave are the very opposite of selfish. They understood then and understand now that they are actually likely to be worse off in the short term with uncertain prospects for the medium to long term. The main wish expressed by people is a desire to be in full control of their nation state, just like that arch-racist and xenophobe Tony Benn. Even if economically there is a hit to them they seem to accept that it will be worth it in the long run and that the move towards an ever-closer EU is not a sensible direction of travel.

Those who take a heated and prejudicial position on either side seem never to have actually asked real people what they truly think. They are far more ready to let twitter and their preferred media do their thinking for them, saves them the trouble of being confronted by an actual human with a defensible position I suppose.
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:17 AM
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Only yesterday, I joked with some colleagues that Covid-19 was almost making me feel wistful for the days when all we had to worry about was Brexit. Thank you all for reminding me what a holy nightmare it still is.
  #24  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Those who I know that voted to leave are the very opposite of selfish. They understood then and understand now that they are actually likely to be worse off in the short term with uncertain prospects for the medium to long term.
This was never spoken by any Brexiter I ever either saw on TV or spoke to in person or online during the referendum period or in about a 12-month period after. It was always insisted there were no downsides, they need us more than we them, just believe in Britain.

And I'm pretty well-connected, and at my work was able to see a huge array of public and professional opinions on what Brexit is.

This 'we'll take a hit in the short term' only came about after May's deal was in danger of failing and no-deal became a prospect, as Brexiters sought to self-rationalise.

Quote:
The main wish expressed by people is a desire to be in full control of their nation state, just like that arch-racist and xenophobe Tony Benn. Even if economically there is a hit to them they seem to accept that it will be worth it in the long run and that the move towards an ever-closer EU is not a sensible direction of travel.
Bully for Tony Benn.

Thing is, Boris Johnson's deal adbicates British control over the Irish border and places a border within the UK's territory. So your claims about a desire for sovereign control rings a little hollow.

Could you answer this: If Johnson's deal had been on offer in 2016, would the public have voted for it?

Quote:
Those who take a heated and prejudicial position on either side seem never to have actually asked real people what they truly think. They are far more ready to let twitter and their preferred media do their thinking for them, saves them the trouble of being confronted by an actual human with a defensible position I suppose.
Once again: I've tried desperately to find a Brexiter with a rational case for Brexit. I've encountered plenty of sensible Tories, whom I can get along with fine. But Brexit? Not a chance. There's a logic hole when it comes up. It's like arguing with a flat-earther or anti-vaxxer.
  #25  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:38 AM
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Those who take a heated and prejudicial position on either side seem never to have actually asked real people what they truly think.
Is this the usual definition of "real people" that goes "Anyone that agrees with me"?
  #26  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:43 AM
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Some were selfish, most were just racist xenophobes.
Before the Brexit vote was announced, a strong majority of Britons disliked the EU government and were opposed to increased EU federalism. That majority liked some of the benefits of being in the EU such as visa-free travel, effective cross-border agencies such as the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, and the free trade agreement. However, they disliked the outgoing payments, the huge amount of EU bureaucracy, and the idea that the main purpose of the EU was to generate an ever-increasing amount of regulations. Additionally, many people resented the fact that immigration from Eastern Europe after the 2004 EU expansion had created competition for jobs and demand for housing and services, but they weren’t perceiving the benefits from that immigration. Remainers who described that resentment as racist xenophobia were part of the problem. They were taking a complex issue and simplifying it into a polarising insult. The Remain campaign had to overcome the embedded dislike of the EU government and suspicions about increased EU federalism, sell the benefits that Britain was receiving from the EU, and alleviate the resentment against Eastern European immigration. It failed at all three. The Leave campaign made a lot of noise, invoked patriotism, and convinced some voters to vote based on their sentiments rather than an economic perspective. But really all they had to do was maintain anti-EU attitudes and immigration resentment that was already present before the vote was announced. They were successful in offsetting some of the Remain campaign’s arguments. But the Remain campaign’s arguments were lousy: Everything’s fine now, let’s maintain the status quo; Vote with your wallet, not your heart; There will be nothing but doom if Britain leaves. The Remain campaign created few positive sentiments for voters to rally around, and never overcame the negative sentiments held by the majority prior to the campaign. That’s why they lost.
  #27  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
Before the Brexit vote was announced, a strong majority of Britons disliked the EU government and were opposed to increased EU federalism. That majority liked some of the benefits of being in the EU such as visa-free travel, effective cross-border agencies such as the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, and the free trade agreement. However, they disliked the outgoing payments, the huge amount of EU bureaucracy, and the idea that the main purpose of the EU was to generate an ever-increasing amount of regulations. Additionally, many people resented the fact that immigration from Eastern Europe after the 2004 EU expansion had created competition for jobs and demand for housing and services, but they weren’t perceiving the benefits from that immigration. Remainers who described that resentment as racist xenophobia were part of the problem. They were taking a complex issue and simplifying it into a polarising insult. The Remain campaign had to overcome the embedded dislike of the EU government and suspicions about increased EU federalism, sell the benefits that Britain was receiving from the EU, and alleviate the resentment against Eastern European immigration. It failed at all three. The Leave campaign made a lot of noise, invoked patriotism, and convinced some voters to vote based on their sentiments rather than an economic perspective. But really all they had to do was maintain anti-EU attitudes and immigration resentment that was already present before the vote was announced. They were successful in offsetting some of the Remain campaign’s arguments. But the Remain campaign’s arguments were lousy: Everything’s fine now, let’s maintain the status quo; Vote with your wallet, not your heart; There will be nothing but doom if Britain leaves. The Remain campaign created few positive sentiments for voters to rally around, and never overcame the negative sentiments held by the majority prior to the campaign. That’s why they lost.
So your point is that the Leave campaign was based on xenophobia and fantasy and the Remain campaign was based on economic realism, and the majority chose the fantasy.

I agree.
  #28  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:50 AM
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This was never spoken by any Brexiter I ever either saw on TV or spoke to in person or online during the referendum period or in about a 12-month period after. It was always insisted there were no downsides, they need us more than we them, just believe in Britain.
I can certainly believe that you don't recall anyone saying it.
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  #29  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
Before the Brexit vote was announced, a strong majority of Britons disliked the EU government and were opposed to increased EU federalism. That majority liked some of the benefits of being in the EU such as visa-free travel, effective cross-border agencies such as the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, and the free trade agreement. However, they disliked the outgoing payments, the huge amount of EU bureaucracy, and the idea that the main purpose of the EU was to generate an ever-increasing amount of regulations. Additionally, many people resented the fact that immigration from Eastern Europe after the 2004 EU expansion had created competition for jobs and demand for housing and services, but they weren’t perceiving the benefits from that immigration. Remainers who described that resentment as racist xenophobia were part of the problem. They were taking a complex issue and simplifying it into a polarising insult. The Remain campaign had to overcome the embedded dislike of the EU government and suspicions about increased EU federalism, sell the benefits that Britain was receiving from the EU, and alleviate the resentment against Eastern European immigration. It failed at all three. The Leave campaign made a lot of noise, invoked patriotism, and convinced some voters to vote based on their sentiments rather than an economic perspective. But really all they had to do was maintain anti-EU attitudes and immigration resentment that was already present before the vote was announced. They were successful in offsetting some of the Remain campaign’s arguments. But the Remain campaign’s arguments were lousy: Everything’s fine now, let’s maintain the status quo; Vote with your wallet, not your heart; There will be nothing but doom if Britain leaves. The Remain campaign created few positive sentiments for voters to rally around, and never overcame the negative sentiments held by the majority prior to the campaign. That’s why they lost.
This I do agree with. There was little positive in the Remain campaign.

But let's not ignore the advantage leave had by blatantly lying and denying there were any downsides whatsoever, invented negatives of membership, and claimed completely contradictory things.

Leave were a gish gallop of falsehoods.
  #30  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:54 AM
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I can certainly believe that you don't recall anyone saying it.
Correct. Because I never heard anyone say it before mid-2017 when Brexit started going down the no-deal route.

I can certainly believe you imagine people saying it.
  #31  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:55 AM
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But let's not avoid the central point of my post, Novelty Bobble

Quote:
Thing is, Boris Johnson's deal abdicates British control over the Irish border and places a border within the UK's territory. So your claims about a desire for sovereign control rings a little hollow.

Could you answer this: If Johnson's deal had been on offer in 2016, would the public have voted for it?
Can you address this, please?

Last edited by Malden Capell; 03-26-2020 at 04:55 AM.
  #32  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:58 AM
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Is this the usual definition of "real people" that goes "Anyone that agrees with me"?
I voted to remain.

Your statement says far more about you than me.

I just don't immediately write off everyone who takes a different view. My family, friends and work colleagues were, and are, pretty evenly split and yet we've been able to discuss the pros and cons without any antipathy at all.

I'm suspicious of the motives of those on either side who are unable (or unwilling) to do so and it is perhaps no surprise that they see and hear what they choose to.
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  #33  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:01 AM
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I voted to remain.

Your statement says far more about you than me.

I just don't immediately write off everyone who takes a different view.
Nor do I. Never. But I have never, ever, encountered a Leave argument that actually survives a moment's scrutiny.

If you can offer me one, go right ahead.

It's not 'unwilling' if there's simply not one there.
  #34  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:10 AM
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But let's not avoid the central point of my post, Novelty Bobble
I don't know, perhaps not, my impression from talking to leavers before the vote was that the overwhelming preference was for a pretty hard break. If Boris's deal was the only one on offer then I don't know what the choice would have been.

Of course it has been said that no-one was voting for a hard Brexit but in my experience a large majority certainly were (and that was backed up by the high European vote for the Brexit party)

But I'm not sure what conceding your point actually proves. That the deal on offer is a sovereignty fudge may well be true. It is however irrelevant to the fact that desire for full sovereign control remains a valid reason for full independence, and people do genuinely hold that view. That was my point.

And why on earth would that be a surprise to anyone? Speak to any Scottish, Welsh or Irish Nationalist. I'm assuming you wouldn't think their concerns were invalid?
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  #35  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:11 AM
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Nor do I. Never. But I have never, ever, encountered a Leave argument that actually survives a moment's scrutiny..
Do you also think that Scottish independence does not survive a moment's scrutiny?
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  #36  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:12 AM
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One thing I have observed during the current crisis is the amazement of the Leavers. Look - individual countries making their own decisions about how to deal with the pandemic, introducing measures such as isolation on arrival, and even completely closing their borders.

This is completely at odds with the Leaver narrative of all borders are completely open, we can't control them, and we always get told what to do by Germany.

Which means that they were, you know, wrong.
  #37  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:18 AM
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I can certainly believe you imagine people saying it.
Interesting to note that you use the words above, implying that I've made it up, but I said about you

Quote:
I can certainly believe that you don't recall anyone saying it
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  #38  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:41 AM
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I don't know, perhaps not, my impression from talking to leavers before the vote was that the overwhelming preference was for a pretty hard break. If Boris's deal was the only one on offer then I don't know what the choice would have been.
My impression from talking to leavers was that they expected the EU to absoutely cave and give the UK whatever it wanted, so we'd be able to dictate terms and get a sweet deal. Which is self-evidently a deluded, fact-free belief.

That's not 'we're okay with hard Brexit' - it's 'hard Brexit is irrelevant as we can invent any ideal Brexit in our heads'

In fact Remain warnings about 'hard Brexit' were dismissed as scaremongering.

How right Remain were.

Quote:
Of course it has been said that no-one was voting for a hard Brexit but in my experience a large majority certainly were (and that was backed up by the high European vote for the Brexit party)
I think it's largely a sizeable proportion continuing to refuse to tackle the self-evidence reality that barking at the EU won't make it cave in. It's the equivalent of people expecting foreigners to understand them if they speak louder.

Quote:
But I'm not sure what conceding your point actually proves. That the deal on offer is a sovereignty fudge may well be true. It is however irrelevant to the fact that desire for full sovereign control remains a valid reason for full independence, and people do genuinely hold that view. That was my point.
You seem to be insisting that we listen to the other points of view while refusing to acknowledge that Leavers have never been asked to listen to the points of view of Remainers.

There's a debate to be had about what is sovereignty and whether or not EU membership violates that. There's also a debate about whether Brexit solves that problem or actually makes it worse.

And there's a debate about whether or not 'reclaiming sovereignty' is worth the enormous economic, diplomatic and infrastructural damage that will inevitably result.

But Brexiters have never been asked to address those things, or to stop being bad winners, come down from their bubbles and try to compromise with their fellow countrymen. Instead, they've treated them like a conquered people, traitors even. A former good friend of mine, a Conservative, who I rarely agreed with on things before Brexit, treated the Brexit victory as license to tell me that (paraphrasing, but pretty much it), I have no rights any more, I lost, I need to suck it up, the British are in charge now, not you.

And yet you berate Remainers for being inflexible?

Quote:
And why on earth would that be a surprise to anyone? Speak to any Scottish, Welsh or Irish Nationalist. I'm assuming you wouldn't think their concerns were invalid?
Who said their complaints were invalid? With Brexiters, they have tons of valid complaints - but the fault is the UK government, and never, when you actually dig down, those of the EU.

Brexit makes them worse, and makes us less sovereign, and compromises our borders to an even worse degree.

As Remainers always warned.

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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Do you also think that Scottish independence does not survive a moment's scrutiny?
You're conflating 'consider the broad merits of whether or not leaving the EU/leaving the UK is a good idea' with 'treating beliefs that aren't backed up by evidence, are based on outright lies, and which will have consequences the direct opposite of which adherents claim, as worthy of respect next to actual facts'.

Last edited by Malden Capell; 03-26-2020 at 05:42 AM.
  #39  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:42 AM
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Interesting to note that you use the words above, implying that I've made it up, but I said about you
That's the joke.
  #40  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:44 AM
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One thing I have observed during the current crisis is the amazement of the Leavers. Look - individual countries making their own decisions about how to deal with the pandemic, introducing measures such as isolation on arrival, and even completely closing their borders.

This is completely at odds with the Leaver narrative of all borders are completely open, we can't control them, and we always get told what to do by Germany.

Which means that they were, you know, wrong.
I can only imagine the conspiracy theories they'd be inventing if we'd not left the EU.
  #41  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:27 AM
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You seem to be insisting that we listen to the other points of view while refusing to acknowledge that Leavers have never been asked to listen to the points of view of Remainers.
no, very much not what I'm saying. From my first post in the thread (bolding mine)

Quote:
Those who take a heated and prejudicial position on either side seem never to have actually asked real people what they truly think. They are far more ready to let twitter and their preferred media do their thinking for them, saves them the trouble of being confronted by an actual human with a defensible position I suppose
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  #42  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:35 AM
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no, very much not what I'm saying. From my first post in the thread (bolding mine)
I apologise then. But the fact still remains, after four years of searching, not a single pro-Brexit claim has survived more than a moment's scrutiny.

And furthermore this is too important to be an agree-to-disagree thing. This is a foolhardy 'decision' which will ruin thousands, make the country weaker, and take decades to recover from, if at all.

Decades. Nobody voted for that, even if the 'we'll have short-term pain then be fine' were true.

Jesus, Brexiters even refuse to be specific on what 'short-term' means.

I suspect it's because they want it to mean whatever they want it to mean. Just like everything else to do with Brexit.
  #43  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:50 AM
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But I have never, ever, encountered a Leave argument that actually survives a moment's scrutiny.

If you can offer me one, go right ahead.
I think we've had this discussion before, and I doubt any good will come of it, but to answer this point: I mainly voted to leave because I have personally experienced, through my work, at least 3 examples of EU legislation that have not only been a huge inconvenience to implement, but also are actively unhelpful to consumers. That was enough for me, but I think it's not unreasonable to assume that if I experienced that in my relatively small field of work, others were experiencing similar things. And I don't mean easily debunked nonsense about straight bananas.

I still believe that in the long run, the UK will be able to benefit economically from not automatically subsidising an extra layer of government, I fully accept the pain this will cause in the short and medium term. Is that selfish? Yes, I fully acknowledge that (and have done in the past). It is unlikely to affect me directly in a meaningful way. I'm sorry for those who have been disrupted by it. But I would lay the blame for that at least equally at the door of an organisation that probably started with good intentions but in recent decades has simply become too big for its boots - namely, the EU itself.

What has caused far more pain and upset than the decision itself is the complete incompetence with which our politicians dealt with it, May and her advisers have the most blame to carry here but I also think those who continued to try and stop the process were misguided at best.
  #44  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:08 AM
Wrenching Spanners is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
So your point is that the Leave campaign was based on xenophobia and fantasy and the Remain campaign was based on economic realism, and the majority chose the fantasy.
My point is that the Remain campaign had to recognise the actual problems and concerns that the large majority of Britons had with the EU government and its principles of ever closer union and freedom of movement. David Cameron tried to negotiate some measures with the EU to address those concerns and came back with a set of weak, wishy-washy agreements that were little more than platitudes. And that was the high point of the effort to alleviate those concerns. What's more, several vocal Remain supporters decided to make those concerns a polarising issue by throwing out labels such as xenophobia. Fostering an us versus them atmosphere during a campaign, especially when "them" is a majority, is both stupid and a pretty good way to lose a campaign. Which is what happened to Remain.
  #45  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:45 AM
Malden Capell is offline
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Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
I think we've had this discussion before, and I doubt any good will come of it, but to answer this point: I mainly voted to leave because I have personally experienced, through my work, at least 3 examples of EU legislation that have not only been a huge inconvenience to implement, but also are actively unhelpful to consumers. That was enough for me, but I think it's not unreasonable to assume that if I experienced that in my relatively small field of work, others were experiencing similar things. And I don't mean easily debunked nonsense about straight bananas.
What regulations?

Were they supported by the UK in Council?

Are they ones the government will undo with Brexit? Or will we be obliged to follow them in order to not wreck the economy?

And finally, baby/bathwater tradeoffs.

Parliament itself passes dumb laws all the time, but I don't find that in and of itself a reasonable cause for dismantling the UK unless it were clear and obvious that doing so would provide economic opportunities.

Quote:
I still believe that in the long run, the UK will be able to benefit economically from not automatically subsidising an extra layer of government, I fully accept the pain this will cause in the short and medium term. Is that selfish? Yes, I fully acknowledge that (and have done in the past). It is unlikely to affect me directly in a meaningful way. I'm sorry for those who have been disrupted by it. But I would lay the blame for that at least equally at the door of an organisation that probably started with good intentions but in recent decades has simply become too big for its boots - namely, the EU itself.
Believe. Yep.

I know that EU membership has been proven to boost the UK economy enormously because it eliminates bureaucracy for business, makes goods and services travel faster and easier, and provides a form of uniformity of standards.

Brexit undoes all that. We will be needlessly duplicating standards and bureaucracy just to be 'sovereign', while still having to have goods checked at borders, in and out of the country.

Being outside the EU, not 'subsidising' a layer of government, will be more expensive. We'll be spending more just to stand still.

Quote:
What has caused far more pain and upset than the decision itself is the complete incompetence with which our politicians dealt with it, May and her advisers have the most blame to carry here but I also think those who continued to try and stop the process were misguided at best.
The incompetence goes all the way down to voters, who refuse to educate themselves on the complexities of international trade and governance.
  #46  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:35 AM
Dead Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Malden Capell View Post
What regulations?
Sorry, but I don't discuss my work on social media/this board. I know this looks like a cop out, but there we are.

Quote:
Were they supported by the UK in Council?
Very likely they were, but that's irrelevant to my position. Opposing them would probably have made no difference. Plus, bureaucrats of all nationalities are nearly always in favour of more regulations, it is their raison d'etre after all.

Quote:
Are they ones the government will undo with Brexit?
I don't know - not immediately, but I believe it is possible, in time. They're probably not the highest priority.

Quote:
Or will we be obliged to follow them in order to not wreck the economy?
No, they are almost completely irrelevant in that regard.

Quote:
And finally, baby/bathwater tradeoffs.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here but leaving is a price I'm personally willing to pay. Others view it differently of course.

Quote:
Parliament itself passes dumb laws all the time, but I don't find that in and of itself a reasonable cause for dismantling the UK unless it were clear and obvious that doing so would provide economic opportunities.
Of course the parliamentary system isn't perfect. But at least we have more direct representation and accountability than we get with the EU.

I accept that having common standards is good for trade, and regulations are obviously the only way to achieve that. The problem is, in my direct experience the EU has been laughably bad at achieving this in an acceptable manner. Effectively swapping the EU parliament and Council for more trade negotiators seems to me to be worth a try.

Quote:
The incompetence goes all the way down to voters, who refuse to educate themselves on the complexities of international trade and governance.
You seem to be seriously suggesting that all voters should "educate themselves on the complexities of international trade and governance". This seems equally unrealistic as the assumptions on which you say some voted for Brexit. You can argue that holding the referendum in the first place was a mistake, or that the terms of it were all wrong, and I'd probably agree with that, but making ridiculous statements doesn't really help your case.
  #47  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:01 AM
casdave is offline
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The accusations of lies in the Brexit campaign are more than mirrored in the transparent lies told with a straight face by the whole cabinet, in particular the Chancellor, and also by the Bank of England.

We were assured that if we voted to leave that it would spark a recession,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36273448

This article states concerns over what could happen but Osbourne left us in no doubt that our economy would pretty much collapse, the pound would drop like a stone and the stock market would crash.

https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk...ne-124846.html

Later on the Bank of England admitted it had "Made a mistake" - what was really meant was that it lied

https://uk.businessesforsale.com/uk/...exit-forecasts.

In the event and following the result every single negative prediction in relation to the economy turned out not only to be wrong, but 180 degrees wrong - every single economic indicator turned positive.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y-project-fear

All this was widely reported very heavily in broadcast media, and left leaning press, and attempt to gainsay any of these predictions was met with a storm of derision. I wonder how many voters were persuaded to vote on the basis of these predictions - all on the basis of an organised orchestrated lying campaign of fear.

The Remain campaign was based on a prophecy storm of lies and and fanciful predictions of doom and disaster - none of which have emerged. I expect that Remainers will now attempt to affix every single problem that we have faced and will face in the future upon Brexit despite that all these will largely be cyclical impacts such as stock overvaluations, currency realignments etc. These may or may not be anything at all to do with Brexit, most likely any negative statistic will be part of the round but will certainly be attributed to Brexit because Remainers are myopically affixed to their 'correctness' and will force any data to fit their 'truth' a bit like the conspiracy theorist tries to twist every fact or lack of data into their model of the world.

Last edited by casdave; 03-27-2020 at 11:02 AM.
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