Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #2101  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:31 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
See, that position I can understand. I’m not sure I agree, but it’s something.

I guess the flipside is like this: let’s say that would-be productive members of society are in short supply for France, which can’t much afford to be choosy, and this woman would be one of them. Or say it’s the reverse: that plenty of people are eager to be productive members of society, such that France can afford to (a) be choosy, and (b) send a signal that “hey, we can afford to be choosy; we just turned down someone who offered us X amount of productivity, the same day we approved someone who’s just as good or better on that front, plus she’s willing to shake hands. We’ve got a long line of people who fit that bill; do yourself a favor, and don’t bother showing up until and unless you can say the same.”

If it’s the former, then, yes, France’s choice makes little sense; but if it’s the latter, then I get why France would say ‘that handshake thing raises questions, the way various other concerns would raise questions — and, as it happens, we can take our pick from among folks who offer just as much but raise no such questions’.
Except that we have many years of actual history that shows us that when they're not welcoming, bitter and segregated underclasses form which threaten economic and even national security. While if they're welcoming, like the US is (or at least has been intermittently in many ways), you get places like Dearborn Michigan, which are wonderful and wholly assimilated cities that just so happen to have tons of Muslims in them.
  #2102  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:37 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Not true. Obama got 51% of the white vote in Iowa in 2012, higher than in Minnesota even. This is in an election when Romney got a record percentage of the white vote nationwide, higher than Trump. You can bet Obama got less than 20 percent in that region of the state, so higher into the 50s elsewhere.
You think I think Obama was left wing, or something?
  #2103  
Old 12-09-2018, 04:44 PM
Budget Player Cadet's Avatar
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,567
This thread is now about Female Genital Mutilation.

Pass it on.
  #2104  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:10 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
But not about male circumcision, right? Since they're two different things and all (well, outside Yale - or is it Oxford).
  #2105  
Old 12-10-2018, 01:18 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
You think I think Obama was left wing, or something?

A true Scotsman!
  #2106  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:23 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
I wasn't the one who brought Obama into the discussion, Bub.

I said Iowan Calvinists have no motivation to change because being very Right Wing isn't that far from mainstream American Culture, which is itself Right Wing, and you bring up Iowans voting for Obama as though that countered my point.

Here's a hint - bringing up a slightly-less-Right-Wing-than-mainstream example doesn't counter my argument.

Congratulations, you played yourself.
  #2107  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:32 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Uhh, no. You made the kind of idiotic assertion that is sadly all too common among ultralefties: that Obama and Steve King (and the people who vote for one or the other but almost certainly not both) are anywhere close to being in the same sector of any political continuum. By extension, then, it doesn’t matter whether we have more of one kind of voter than the other, because the outcomes are too similar to care about.

I’m not sure if you really believe that, or are desperately scrambling to cover your ignorance about Iowa, which didn’t stop you from making a confident proclamation about the state’s political orientation.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 12-10-2018 at 03:35 AM.
  #2108  
Old 12-10-2018, 06:27 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Uhh, no. You made the kind of idiotic assertion that is sadly all too common among ultralefties: that Obama and Steve King (and the people who vote for one or the other but almost certainly not both) are anywhere close to being in the same sector of any political continuum.
They are in the same sector. It is the sector way to the right of me.
Quote:
I’m not sure if you really believe that, or are desperately scrambling to cover your ignorance about Iowa, which didn’t stop you from making a confident proclamation about the state’s political orientation.
Don't care what you think my motivation is, quite frankly. I've been quite open about the fact that I'm strongly Left, and IMO all American mainstream politics is Rightist. Why on Earth would you think I'd post anything different?

But just FYI, you're the only one making this about Iowa. When I say "dominant RW culture", I mean Amerikkka as a whole.
  #2109  
Old 12-10-2018, 08:19 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Okay, well: assuming you do mean that, it’s useless to attempt any political discussion, or even debate, with someone who believes there are no relevant differences worth caring about between Steve King and Barack Obama. We’re just not sharing the same, or even overlapping, frames of reference.

I will note however that mountains of empirical evidence demonstrate the absurdity, and in fact the rank callousness, of taking that line. When politicians like Obama are in power, we get expansion of health care for low income families and more robust nutrition programs for hungry kids. When the Steve Kings of the world control the levers of government, those same families are more likely to go hungry, to become homeless, even to die for lack of access to needed health care.

So your extremism, your precious rigid ideological purity, may make you feel better about yourself—but it hurts most those who have the least.
  #2110  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:07 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Nice strawman - I didn't say there were "no relevant differences", I just indicated that the differences that exist don't make Obama Left enough to have a significant impact on the overall Right-leaning nature of the American political landscape. He's not Left, he's just Less Right (while being more right, for all that)

Yes, Obama enacted ACA - but ACA is not a leftist program. It works within a corporatist framework. So you don't get to use it as a counter to charges of America being an overall Right-leaning society. The very existence of ACA, rather than state-run UHC, is a symptom of the fact that America is overall RW.

And my ideological purity doesn't hurt anyone, since I'm not a voter for any American politicians. I wish I could say the same for American politicians, though, who've hurt me and mine plenty in the past.
  #2111  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:26 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
You’re trying to redefine the paramaters of the discussion to suit you. I never said Obama was a “Leftist”. I said that making people with ultraconservative religious doctrines American citizens can hurt us, and that the example of the Dutch Calvinists in northwestern Iowa, and their congressman Steve King, demonstrates that it’s not necessarily just for a generation or two. Any abstract haggling over the precise definition of “Left” (including the ostentatious capitalization you lefties seem to love) is entirely irrelevant.

ETA: And no, you don’t get to absolve yourself of any consequences if you spread ideas like this about American politics. Many Americans read this board, including the kind of impressionable young people who are most susceptible to this kind of dogmatic rhetoric. And this can have a very real impact. For a very recent and painful instance, Donald Trump didn’t get any more support than Romney did. In fact, he got less. But third parties like Jill Stein got a lot more than their 2012 counterparts did, most significantly from young people who were persuaded it didn’t matter whether Hillary or Trump won, since both were irredeemably right wing. You might as well be a Russian bot when you spread that kind of narrative.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 12-10-2018 at 09:31 AM.
  #2112  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:42 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Did I say you said Obama was a Leftist? No, I asked if you thought that I thought that, since you seemed to think bringing him up was in any way relevant and it would only be if he was Left enough to be a counter to my observation that being very RW in a middling RW country is not the same thing as being very fundamentalist in secular states.

And fuck me, "Think of the (American) children!" as an argument? Really? Weak sauce, motherfucker. Note that I haven't said word one about who anyone should vote for (in 2008, I would have said Obama and 2012, BTW, and Hillary in 2016. Just because they're far to my Right doesn't mean I'd tell people not to vote for them - check my posts here)
  #2113  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:55 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Then your entire “point” here is incoherent at best.

—It’s a bad thing to have voters who would support someone like Steve King.

—The voters in that region are quite obviously as awful as they are because their ancestors were Dutch Calvinists who immigrated here and brought their toxic religious ideology with them.

—Nearly two centuries later, they still stand out from the society around them, where King would not stand a chance.

—So dismissing conservative religiosity as something that always fades away in a generation or two is contradicted by this counterexample.

This is what I actually said, not any of this nonsense about “the Left”. If you dispute any of what I was actually arguing, feel free to explain. Up to now, you haven’t done anything but blather on about a bunch of utterly irrelevant self-righteous “Leftist” nonsense.
  #2114  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:13 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
—So dismissing conservative religiosity as something that always fades away in a generation or two is contradicted by this counterexample.
Except that's not what I'm saying. I never said anything about "always fade away". I said the one situation isn't like the other - there are factors sustaining the Calvinists that won't be sustaining the Islamicists.

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-10-2018 at 03:13 PM.
  #2115  
Old 12-10-2018, 04:35 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Liiiike...that supposedly surrounding conservative society? Which somehow won’t be around Muslim immigrants?
  #2116  
Old 12-11-2018, 03:14 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Mmm, I wonder if there's a commonality between Iowan Calvinists and their surrounding mainstream culture, that isn't there for Islamicists in Europe and their surrounding culture?

Why, even leaving aside the fact that mainstream European culture is nowhere near as RW as mainstream American culture, I feel there could almost be something that would colour the degree of tolerance each group would receive from their host culture. I wonder what that might be...

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-11-2018 at 03:15 AM.
  #2117  
Old 12-11-2018, 04:32 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
When you are demonstrably far more right wing than your immediate neighbors in the state, it makes zero sense to say that those neighbors are reinforcing your right-wingness, regardless of their skin color. In fact, it’s even more striking, the effect that immigration history and religion clearly has, given that there is obviously much more opportunity for commingling given that no one today would notice an ethnic or language difference.
  #2118  
Old 12-11-2018, 05:11 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
When you are demonstrably far more right wing than your immediate neighbors in the state, it makes zero sense to say that those neighbors are reinforcing your right-wingness
Good thing no-one's said that, then.

Tolerating/allowing to continue is not the same as reinforcing.

Look at how the decidedly more outré elements of the LDS movement are able to survive because they're tolerated by a surrounding more mainstream LDS-dominated populace.
  #2119  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:17 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Anyway - back to more important things:
So, getting your uncut penis caught in a zipper - worse than infibulation, or so very much worse - let's turn to this OxfordYale egghead to mansplain it to us...
  #2120  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:15 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Tolerating/allowing to continue is not the same as reinforcing.
“Tolerating/allowing to continue”. Interesting phrasing. Something tells me you would not have wandered into this territory if you were keeping track of the origin of this back-and-forth. I was the one advocating non-tolerance, precisely by insisting that women like the one in France be required to shake hands at the naturalization ceremony (and I would also support other measures that have been put in place in Europe, like burqa bans). So I guess to be consistent with what you are claiming here, you must actually support those measures too! Huh.
  #2121  
Old 12-11-2018, 09:30 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
You're always the one advocating non-tolerance, ya dumb racist. That's what racism is. No surprises there.

But where have I advocated it in this discussion? I've merely made an observation that Christian RW hicks in America are a piss-poor analogy for Muslim Fundamentalists in Europe, in regards to how "sticky" their attitudes may be over time, and why that might be.
  #2122  
Old 12-11-2018, 09:33 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Anyway, back on topic with some clickbait -

The ONE reason only small-dicked men fear discussion of Female Genital Mutilation!

(Spoiler Alert : It's because their micropenises resemble clitorises in size and shape)
  #2123  
Old 12-11-2018, 09:38 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
And you don’t even know what “clickbait” means. Sad!
  #2124  
Old 12-11-2018, 10:57 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
What, you can't see the link?
  #2125  
Old 12-11-2018, 10:59 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Funny.
  #2126  
Old 12-12-2018, 12:42 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
If I had a micropenis, I'd learn to laugh at everything, too.
  #2127  
Old 12-12-2018, 11:19 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Evidence of why we need people like Sam and the rest of the IDW, to be voices of sanity:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/He...e-Isn-t/243350
  #2128  
Old 12-12-2018, 01:18 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Evidence of why we need people like Sam and the rest of the IDW, to be voices of sanity:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/He...e-Isn-t/243350
I'd expect more of a defence of his harassment from a Politics Professor than a combo of "that's how we did it in the 50s" and the fallacy of false dilemma...

I don't see why this clear-cut case of an idiot and his deserved censure needs any input from Sam Harris...
  #2129  
Old 12-12-2018, 01:28 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,884
A white man in a high position was asked (or worse -- ordered!) to apologize! How horrible for that poor white man in a high position? Who will speak for poor endangered white men in high positions who say something dumb and are directed to apologize, if not Sam Harris (or, in his absence, random racist internet weirdoes)?
  #2130  
Old 12-12-2018, 01:42 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Maybe you as a South African honestly don’t understand that joke either—I’ll actually give you the benefit of the doubt on that. Just FYI: saying “ladies lingerie” when asked what floor has NOTHING to do with sex. It’s a dumb joke, but a completely anodyne one. It is equivalent to saying “housewares” or “sporting goods”, because it refers to the different floors/departments of a classic department store. Therefore he was not “harassing” anyone, and certainly does not deserve “censure” of any kind.
  #2131  
Old 12-12-2018, 01:48 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Maybe you as a South African honestly don’t understand that joke either—I’ll actually give you the benefit of the doubt on that. Just FYI: saying “ladies lingerie” when asked what floor has NOTHING to do with sex. It’s a dumb joke, but a completely anodyne one. It is equivalent to saying “housewares” or “sporting goods”, because it refers to the different floors/departments of a classic department store. Therefore he was not “harassing” anyone, and certainly does not deserve “censure” of any kind.
Thank goodness we have white men around to make these sorts of determinations! Only white men can truly know the facts and truth of such matters. Thank you, oh most wise and benevolent white man!
  #2132  
Old 12-12-2018, 02:03 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Translation: in your Bizarro World, it’s the mirror image of the lamentable state of affairs in bygone eras: instead of white men being the only ones whose testimony is given any weight, for you they are the only ones ineligible to testify about anything—except, I suppose, in certain cases when they take the correct self-flagellating line like Andy is so fond of doing. That’s not justice, it’s tit for tat in some endless blood feud.
  #2133  
Old 12-12-2018, 02:25 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Translation: in your Bizarro World, it’s the mirror image of the lamentable state of affairs in bygone eras: instead of white men being the only ones whose testimony is given any weight, for you they are the only ones ineligible to testify about anything—except, I suppose, in certain cases when they take the correct self-flagellating line like Andy is so fond of doing. That’s not justice, it’s tit for tat in some endless blood feud.
"Testify" all you want. Really. But when you declare from on high what the supposed "truth" about something as subjective as harassment, offense, and the intent of a certain joke, etc., is, then expect to be mocked. This isn't about white men. It's about you -- you're often an idiot, and I think it's fun to point out your instances of idiocy on this board. I think this particular form of idiocy (believing that your experience renders you qualified to make judgments with certainty about things that are necessarily outside your own experience) is more common among white men, but it's certainly not unique to any group.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-12-2018 at 02:28 PM.
  #2134  
Old 12-12-2018, 02:46 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Maybe you as a South African honestly don’t understand that joke either
Gosh, no, sir, we have no department stores nor any exposure to decades of American media here in Darkest Africa, sir You dumb racist motherfucker.
Quote:
Just FYI: saying “ladies lingerie” when asked what floor has NOTHING to do with sex.
Sure , Mister. Whateeever you say.
  #2135  
Old 12-12-2018, 03:40 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
I guess you’re a sophisticate who knows all about American culture. When I went back to my birthplace of Kenya, the native Kenyans I talked to frequently peppered me with questions that indicated they did not in fact understand U.S. culture terribly well, although they were certainly eager to learn. Which is no slight against them: most Americans are notoriously foggy about non-American cultures, and unfortunately all too often don’t care to learn. (The British sometimes strike me that way as well, which is perhaps where Americans got that tendency from.)
  #2136  
Old 12-12-2018, 05:33 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.f0b24a23cb12
Quote:
“Ladies’ lingerie.” It was a lame, outmoded joke — the sort of thing you say in a crowded elevator to alleviate the discomfort of being jammed among strangers, an artifact of the days of fancy department stores with operators announcing the floor stops.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...2ce_story.html


Quote:
In the 1940s and 1950s, large department stores hired employees who operated the elevators. On each floor the operator would call out: “Housewares, luggage and bedding!”; “Ladies’ lingerie and beach apparel!” Richard Ned Lebow, a professor of political theory at King’s College London and the 2014 recipient of a distinguished scholar award from the International Studies Association, was simply making fun of an archaic system. I have made similar comments on occasion in a crowded elevator. An apology was not necessary. Lighten up, people! Stop undermining those with serious issues of misogyny and abuse.
Jan Allnutt,Bethesda

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ssment/559760/
Quote:
Consider the remedy that the ISA suggests: a “sufficient” apology, which it defines as one that, among other things, addresses Lebow’s actions, “rather than the perceptions of Prof. Sharoni.” In other words, it would presumably be insufficient to say, “I am sorry that my joke in the elevator offended you,” a sentiment that he might conceivably hold. Rather, it would seem to require something like, “I am sorry that I harassed you in the elevator at the conference,” or “I am sorry that my joke was inappropriate and demeaning.” Put another way, the remedy seems to require Lebow to make a statement that he does not believe, and that the ISA surely knows he doesn’t believe.
Surely, as a matter of principle, no association of truth-seeking scholars should compel a member to make a statement he or she believes to be factually false?[...]

Among the several academics with whom I spoke who strongly disagreed with ISA’s decision, Rose McDermott, a highly respected international relations scholar at Brown University, was willing to go on the record with her concerns[:]

“In this particular case, Professor Lebow's comment was an iconic joke, even instantiated in Harry Potter novels. “
  #2137  
Old 12-12-2018, 05:59 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,884
Oh no! A "lame, outmoded joke" might be interpreted differently in a different time, and when it references women's underwear, taken as offensive. How terrible that Lebow was directed to apologize for saying such a (dumb) thing! What trials will wealthy white men have to endure next? Surely nothing could be worse than being directed to apologize for saying something dumb?
  #2138  
Old 12-12-2018, 07:28 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
So you believe he should be required to profess something he doesn’t believe. (Never mind what you think he should believe: your belief about that isn’t going to change what he actually does believe.). What is the point of that?

I’m not sure how well-versed you are in history, but this is exactly how the Chinese Cultural Revolution worked. We’re not to that extreme (let’s hope “yet” is not the appropriate adverb to add here), but it’s a difference of degree rather than kind.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...&noredirect=on
Quote:
During Mao Zedong's totalitarian and often ruthless rule over China, from the early 1950s through 1976, one of the Communist Party's most unpleasant tactics for maintaining control was something called a "struggle session." On the surface, the idea was that everyone had to suss out "class enemies" and try to better their own commitment to the Communist revolution by attending regular "struggle session" meetings where they'd admit their own revolutionary failures and try to do better as individuals and communities. In practice, though, it was a form of self-reinforcing terror, a means of purging political enemies real and imagined, a tactic for working people into ideological fervor, sometimes in mass "sessions" with thousands of people.

But hey, maybe that sounds good to you. My late father, a Marxist anthropologist and a brilliant man in many other ways, used to defend Mao, which drove me crazy.
  #2139  
Old 12-12-2018, 08:04 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
So you believe he should be required to profess something he doesn’t believe.
Newsflash: Many people who utter the words "I'm sorry" do not actually feel sorry. That doesn't mean that requiring them to make an apology when they've done something jerkish constitutes some kind of Soviet-show-trial forced "recantation".

Any decent person is sorry if a silly joke they made upset or offended somebody. Refusing to apologize just because they don't agree that their silly joke was as upsetting or offensive as the complainant found it simply makes the joke-teller look like a conceited jerk who can't bear to acknowledge that they're not quite as funny as they thought they were.

That said, it would probably have been more effective for the complainant simply to be solicitous about the jerkish joke-teller's apparent confusion, rather than appearing taken aback or embarrassed by the suggestiveness of the joke, which is a reaction that jerkish joke-tellers love to guffaw at. "I'm sorry, sir, the floors here don't have departments, they have numbers. Do you remember what number floor you're going to? Or does one of the people with you maybe know where you're going?"

Conceited old sexist jerks enjoy embarrassing or surprising women with sexual innuendos but they absolutely HATE seeming to be elderly and confused.
  #2140  
Old 12-12-2018, 08:08 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
As a reminder of what sort of apology is required:

Quote:
Consider the remedy that the ISA suggests: a “sufficient” apology, which it defines as one that, among other things, addresses Lebow’s actions, “rather than the perceptions of Prof. Sharoni.” In other words, it would presumably be insufficient to say, “I am sorry that my joke in the elevator offended you,” a sentiment that he might conceivably hold. Rather, it would seem to require something like, “I am sorry that I harassed you in the elevator at the conference,” or “I am sorry that my joke was inappropriate and demeaning.” Put another way, the remedy seems to require Lebow to make a statement that he does not believe, and that the ISA surely knows he doesn’t believe.
Surely, as a matter of principle, no association of truth-seeking scholars should compel a member to make a statement he or she believes to be factually false?
  #2141  
Old 12-12-2018, 08:20 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Quote:
Rather, it would seem to require something like, “I am sorry that I harassed you in the elevator at the conference,” or “I am sorry that my joke was inappropriate and demeaning.”
Or, for example, "I'm sorry for telling that stupid joke".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc
Quote:
Surely, as a matter of principle, no association of truth-seeking scholars should compel a member to make a statement he or she believes to be factually false?
Eh, if the teller of the stupid joke isn't actually sorry for telling it, then pretty much any apology will involve a statement that the teller believes to be factually false. That is not actually the intolerable assault on academic freedom that the whiny defenders of this stupid joke are melodramatically trying to make it out to be.

Last edited by Kimstu; 12-12-2018 at 08:20 PM.
  #2142  
Old 12-13-2018, 12:45 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I guess you’re a sophisticate who knows all about American culture. When I went back to my birthplace of Kenya, the native Kenyans I talked to frequently peppered me with questions that indicated they did not in fact understand U.S. culture terribly well,
Listen, you dumb racist cunt, 2 things:
1. Kenya is not South Africa - only ignorant racist fucksticks think what people on the street in one part of Africa know has any bearing on what's known in a completely different country half a continent away. What does the pop cultural knowledge of Salvadorians say about your own? You really suck at making a coherent argument, but even more so when your racism obviously gets in the way.

2. You seem unaware of how pervasive American culture can be, with bits of it popping up all over the place in weird ways. Kind of like a fungus, or a cancer, but there you are. I was raised surrounded by idiocy like Reader's Digest, Beltway comics recordings and American TV.
But sure, make "You don't really know anything about American culture" the basis of your argument, I'm sure that will prove fruitful, you bigotted simpleton.

Point is, I'm aware of the source of the "humour", I'm just denying that it's innocently-used[I] in this case. Or apologised immediately rather than doubling down - IME, it's the guilty who shout back the loudest. Especially sexist pigs - look at Kavanaugh's performance in Congress.

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-13-2018 at 12:45 AM.
  #2143  
Old 12-13-2018, 12:47 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Oh, no, a similar joke can be found in Harry Potter! Tell me, I'm curious - how is an academic conference like a children's book?
  #2144  
Old 12-13-2018, 12:50 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
My late father, a Marxist anthropologist and a brilliant man in many other ways
with the reflected glory again.

I must admit, I question how "brilliant" either of your parents really were, when they so clearly failed as parents. Look at the racist simpleton they raised.
  #2145  
Old 12-13-2018, 05:32 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
with the reflected glory again.

I must admit, I question how "brilliant" either of your parents really were, when they so clearly failed as parents. Look at the racist simpleton they raised.
Be careful or he might show you a video of a piece of paper with a high SAT score! And then where would you be?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-13-2018 at 05:32 AM.
  #2146  
Old 12-13-2018, 07:54 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Doubled over with laughter?
  #2147  
Old 12-13-2018, 09:30 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,763
Your transparent envy is noted. Hey, don’t sweat it: not everyone can be three sigmas above average! I’m sure you are both very talented in your own special ways. <pat pat>

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Kenya is not South Africa
And yet: until it was no longer convenient for you, you felt free to speak for the whole continent (“Here in darkest Africa”).

BTW: “Beltway comics recordings”? Say what? I guess I missed American Culture class the day they covered that.
  #2148  
Old 12-13-2018, 09:35 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
And yet: until it was no longer convenient for you, you felt free to speak for the whole continent (“Here in darkest Africa”).
Tagging my own location is not the same as "speaking for the whole continent", you loonie.

Quote:
BTW: “Beltway comics recordings”? Say what? I guess I missed American Culture class the day they covered that.
What, you've never heard of the Borscht Beltway? I made an error, obviously, I meant "Borscht Belt" and it came out as "Beltway", I'm clearly a low-sigma
  #2149  
Old 12-13-2018, 09:40 AM
Budget Player Cadet's Avatar
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Your transparent envy is noted. Hey, don’t sweat it: not everyone can be three sigmas above average! I’m sure you are both very talented in your own special ways. <pat pat>
If it weren't for Mr. Sexual Harassment over there, you'd be the saddest poster on this board, man. And it's still cutting it close.
  #2150  
Old 12-17-2018, 08:19 AM
Budget Player Cadet's Avatar
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,567
Sam Harris has deleted his Patreon. Why? Because he's upset that it has banned "several prominent content creators", and that those bannings were brought on by "political bias". No points for guessing that those banned (Sargon of Akkad, Milo Yiannopolous, James Allsup) were "alt-right", i.e. fucking neo-nazis. At this point, I think it's fair to consider this the trash taking itself out. Maybe we can convince Jordan Peterson to take the same principled stand.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:24 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017