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  #15401  
Old 10-14-2019, 05:04 PM
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This is fucked up on so many levels.

So the doors were opened and the screen doors closed. This is a reason for a police visit???

They park around the corner? So that the people in the house can't see a police car?? Because they suspect what?? A home invasion? Because the have a report of an open door??????

The officers approach with stealth. On a welfare check call. They do not identify themselves as police officers. Because 'stealth mode'. They ONLY information they had is that a door was open. How is this possibly proper procedure?

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six."

The homeowner would have been better off shooting at the intruder on her porch.
They were probably hoping to find her using drugs or doing some other illegal activity that would allow them to charge her with something. It's not worth their time come out to make sure that a member of the community is alright if they can't get an arrest out of it.

Responding to the call like sane human beings, pulling up with the lights on and knocking at the front door, wouldn't have given them the chance to conduct an investigation into any wrongdoings they may imagine her being up to.
  #15402  
Old 10-14-2019, 06:45 PM
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You're not allowed to be Black in your own front yard:
https://www.comicsands.com/family-su...33ab68d22425b2
Not only was the family arrested once for loitering, but they were re-arrested for loitering when they were released from jail.

This is what oppression looks like.
  #15403  
Old 10-14-2019, 07:19 PM
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Fort Worth is in Tarrant County. Although the shooting was presumably by Fort Worth cops, Tarrant County's Sheriff is in the news because he attended an anti-immigration event at the White House, where he claimed many undocumented immigrants in his jail are repeat DUI offenders . The sheriff said, ” “These drunks will run over your children, and they will run over my children.” His stepson was arrested on a DUI the next day.
http://www.wbap.com/2019/10/14/tarra...cent-exposure/
OK, reality, this is just getting hackneyed. I mean, this episode--no scratch that, the whole damned season--is just filled with lazy writing!

Frankly, I think the damned Universe has jumped the shark.
  #15404  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:21 PM
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Fort Worth officer jailed on murder charge after fatally shooting Atatiana Jefferson
  #15405  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:46 PM
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Fort Worth officer Aaron Dean was charged with murder Monday after fatally shooting Atatiana Jefferson
while she played video games in her home.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ng/3973133002/

I got beat on the report, but this is great news.
  #15406  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:03 PM
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They were probably hoping to find her using drugs or doing some other illegal activity that would allow them to charge her with something. It's not worth their time come out to make sure that a member of the community is alright if they can't get an arrest out of it.

Responding to the call like sane human beings, pulling up with the lights on and knocking at the front door, wouldn't have given them the chance to conduct an investigation into any wrongdoings they may imagine her being up to.
I agree with most of this. Given the late hour, the bad neighborhood, and the temperature in Fort Worth at that hour (~45 degrees), a house with all its front door wide open, I am guessing, suggested to the arriving police that it was either a burglary, or the inhabitants were cooking a batch of drugs and were trying to vent away the smell. For either case, surreptitiously approaching the house might either get them the burglars, or a bunch of illicit drug makers, whereas showing up with lights and sirens would allow the criminals to get away or destroy evidence. I really suspect the cops were hoping it was the second. Different agency, but Always Think Forfeiture became a meme for a reason.

When I was burglarized, the responding officer did not act like k9befriender's example officer. But I've had friends in similar situations who, when they called the police, the police were more interested in trying to find evidence against the victim, than trying to gather evidence about the burglary.

Glad the officer was charged. In a similar situation a few years ago, Fort Worth police officers weren't.

Last edited by Gray Ghost; 10-14-2019 at 10:04 PM.
  #15407  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:56 PM
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the bad neighborhood
I have yet to see or watch a story on this and hear anything about her neighborhood,let alone describing it as "bad". Where did you come across this characterization?
  #15408  
Old 10-14-2019, 11:50 PM
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I have yet to see or watch a story on this and hear anything about her neighborhood,let alone describing it as "bad". Where did you come across this characterization?
I guess a working class neighborhood populated mostly by blacks and Hispanics has to be bad. Why else would a cop have his gun out and use it??
  #15409  
Old 10-14-2019, 11:50 PM
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I guess a working class neighborhood populated mostly by blacks and Hispanics has to be bad. Why else would a cop have his gun out and use it??
Was it a working class neighborhood? The murdered woman was a pharmaceutical rep studying to be a doctor.
  #15410  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:06 AM
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{...} The murdered woman was a pharmaceutical rep studying to be a doctor.
Coming soon to a headline near you: Shooting victim was a drug dealer.

CMC fnord!

Last edited by crowmanyclouds; 10-15-2019 at 12:06 AM.
  #15411  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:08 AM
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Was it a working class neighborhood? The murdered woman was a pharmaceutical rep studying to be a doctor.
She was staying at her mother's house to take care of her. The street shows dozens of properties under 100K and several under 80k.
  #15412  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:11 AM
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The middle of this article is the working class description of the neighborhood.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...67e_story.html
  #15413  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:19 AM
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I think the rest of America is beginning to see why black people don't trust police, even to "serve and protect"
  #15414  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:07 AM
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Re "working class neighborhood".

That's how I would describe my neighborhood. The median income for my neighborhood is just $31K. In the mornings, I see a lot of folks walking out of their homes dressed in uniforms of some type. There are also more than a few pensioners here, and I'm not talking about the kind of pensioner who eventually moves down to Boca. More like the kind who are raising their grandkids.

But there are pockets of wealth. My next-door-neighbor and the guy across the street from me are quite well-to-do, as evidenced by the number of vehicles, motorcyles, and boats they own. I'm also not what you would call "working class."

The neighborhood isn't one that I would call "bad". Yes, there are property crimes here but not any more than what you find in the hoity-toitier neighborhood just down the street. Besides, we're in the freakin' city. There are no crime-free neighborhoods smack dab in the middle of the city (or anywhere else, for that matter) But I would describe it as "relatively safe". There are certainly many places in the city that I would not describe that way.

So I would caution anyone from thinking "working class" is synonomous with "bad". I would only trust someone who is very familiar with Fort Worth to make that kind of assessment.
  #15415  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:54 AM
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I don't associate "working-class neighborhood" with crime, because the term clearly implies that the people there are working, and the bad neighborhoods are the ones where people aren't.
  #15416  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:06 AM
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"Ummmm. No, that's OK, I'll go over myself and check on her, thanks. No, you cannot have the address. Bye"
I can only imagine how the neighbor who called is feeling.
  #15417  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:34 AM
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Check out this story from USA TODAY: These cops lied. They can still send you to prison

Across the USA, prosecutors aren't tracking officer misconduct, skirting Supreme Court "Brady" rules and sometimes leading to wrongful convictions.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/ne...se/2233386001/

Absolutely sickening that these thugs get to keep their jobs and continue to ruin people's lives.
  #15418  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:35 AM
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I don't associate "working-class neighborhood" with crime, because the term clearly implies that the people there are working, and the bad neighborhoods are the ones where people aren't.
I completely agree. It might be a lower income area, but the houses are maintained and look nice backed on the pictures and videos. This was a bad cop who should not have been on the force.
  #15419  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:16 AM
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I completely agree. It might be a lower income area, but the houses are maintained and look nice backed on the pictures and videos. This was a bad cop who should not have been on the force.
"...should not have been..."

But there are so many who should not have been or should not be, and the "system" covers and lies for them. And if they fuck up in one city or county, they just hop to another.

Usually with NO consequences.

Now we can probably expect "the system", the police, and the "media" to look for ways to defame the victim - like they usually try to do.

Enough.
  #15420  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:32 AM
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The story in UCBearcats link includes a searchable database of investigations of officers, and a call for help to include expanding it. It is well worth the read. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/ne...ps/3223984002/
  #15421  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:11 AM
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I feel for the neighbor. I can see where you might be afraid to go over yourself if you think a break-in might be in progress. If the cop had just gone over and knocked at the front door to see if everything was ok, nothing would have happened. But to shoot to kill the instant something may startle you is not good policing. He didn't identify himself and within maybe three seconds of first uttering a word he shoots her dead. Yes this is murder. At least it didn't take weeks of investigating to make the obvious charge.
  #15422  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:20 AM
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Yes, the cop did wrong here, but in a working-class neighborhood in Texas, shouldn't the civilian be wearing body armor?
  #15423  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:22 AM
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Yes this is murder. At least it didn't take weeks of investigating to make the obvious charge.
I am (sadly) truly stunned it has moved this quickly. This is how the backlash SHOULD look. I'll eat my crow sammich this time, but I'm not convinced it represents anything like a national, institutional awakening with the Blue Man Gang.
  #15424  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:36 AM
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I think the rest of America is beginning to see why black people don't trust police, even to "serve and protect"
I saw posts from several people (some black, some queer) on my facebook saying some variation of 'hey, just in case you don't get it, if you ever think something is wrong with me, for the love of god don't call the cops to check on me'.
  #15425  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:45 AM
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I wish there were minimally armed personnel that could be dispatched for welfare checks.

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  #15426  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:03 AM
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As fucked up as the situation is, I don't know if a murder charge is appropriate.

Unless new facts come to light, I have to assume that the officer believed (wrongly) that he was taking correct action as a police officer. He had no intent to commit a crime. I think that neither officer followed correct procedure and that he fired his weapon out of cowardice, not malice. Maybe one of our law-talking guys can correct me, but that seems like manslaughter, not murder.
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  #15427  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:05 AM
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As fucked up as the situation is, I don't know if a murder charge is appropriate.

Unless new facts come to light, I have to assume that the officer believed (wrongly) that he was taking correct action as a police officer. He had no intent to commit a crime. I think that neither officer followed correct procedure and that he fired his weapon out of cowardice, not malice. Maybe one of our law-talking guys can correct me, but that seems like manslaughter, not murder.
If I recall from the Guyger thread, Texas doesn't have a manslaughter charge. The equivalent in TX is second degree murder, which is what she was convicted of.
  #15428  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:08 AM
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I wish there were minimally armed personnel that could be dispatched for welfare checks.
To make the best of the thalidomide tragedy?
  #15429  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:16 AM
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If I recall from the Guyger thread, Texas doesn't have a manslaughter charge. The equivalent in TX is second degree murder, which is what she was convicted of.
Ah, thank you.
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  #15430  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:28 AM
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I have yet to see or watch a story on this and hear anything about her neighborhood,let alone describing it as "bad". Where did you come across this characterization?
Talking with Metroplex residents and LEOs elsewhere. I've never been to that part of FW.

Panning around on Google Street View for 1200 E Allen Ave, Fort Worth, it looks lower income, working class: peeling paint, work trucks, older used cars,window A/C units, meh upkeep on the yards. OTOH, no window bars, decent sized lots, and it looks like people there actually work for a living. There aren't people sitting around in plastic chairs drinking out of a bag at 2PM.

Not all that different than the neighborhood where Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas were murdered by Houston P.D. officers.
  #15431  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:29 AM
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To make the best of the thalidomide tragedy?
You are a terrible, terrible person.
  #15432  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:33 AM
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Ah, thank you.
Sec 19.04 of the Texas Penal Code is titled "Manslaughter." It is defined as, "recklessly causing the death of an individual." It is a 2nd degree felony; the penalty for which is 2 to 20 year incarceration in state prison. Statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.19.htm#19.04
  #15433  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:36 AM
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Sec 19.04 of the Texas Penal Code is titled "Manslaughter." It is defined as, "recklessly causing the death of an individual." It is a 2nd degree felony; the penalty for which is 2 to 20 year incarceration in state prison. Statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.19.htm#19.04
The difference is intent, correct? Manslaughter would be used when a person causes the death of another through negligence. If there is intent at all, manslaughter would be apply.
  #15434  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:38 AM
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If I recall from the Guyger thread, Texas doesn't have a manslaughter charge. The equivalent in TX is second degree murder, which is what she was convicted of.
Guyger was convicted of murder. Texas does not have degrees of murder. Its Penal Code is modeled after the Model Penal Code, which eliminated such degrees of murder, and many considerations that went into distinguishing between those degrees, like malice aforethought, depraved indifference, etc... Texas has the following degrees of criminal homicide: Capitol Murder, Murder, Manslaughter, and Criminally Negligent Homicide.

Murder may be found in Texas Penal Code, section 19.02. It is a 1st degree felony, except where the defendant proves by a preponderance of the evidence that they were "under the influence of a sudden passion arising from an adequate cause." In which case it is a 2nd degree felony. A 1st degree felony normally has a sentence range of 5 to 99 years in state prison, hence criticism of Guyger's 10 year sentence.

Last edited by Gray Ghost; 10-15-2019 at 11:43 AM.
  #15435  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:44 AM
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Guyger was convicted of murder. Texas does not have degrees of murder. Its Penal Code is modeled after the Model Penal Code, which eliminated such degrees of murder, and many considerations that went into distinguishing between those degrees, like malice aforethought, depraved indifference, etc... Texas has the following degrees of criminal homicide: Capitol Murder, Murder, Manslaughter, and Criminally Negligent Homicide.

Murder may be found in Texas Penal Code, section 19.02. It is a 1st degree felony, except where the defendant proves by a preponderance of the evidence that they were "under the influence of a sudden passion arising from an adequate cause." In which case it is a 2nd degree felony. A 1st degree felony normally has a sentence range of 5 to 99 years in state prison, hence criticism of Guyger's 10 year sentence.
Thank you! I thought I had a basic grasp of it, but that explains the distinction well.
  #15436  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:57 AM
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The difference is intent, correct? Manslaughter would be used when a person causes the death of another through negligence. If there is intent at all, manslaughter would be apply.
The difference is the required mental state of the offender. Manslaughter requires recklessness: a conscious disregard for the risk that the actor's conduct may result in harm to another. Negligence in general is a lesser mental state, and merely requires that the actor breached a duty to the victim, which caused a harm. For Texas law, in the case of criminally negligent homicide, per the Texas District & County Attorney's Association, the actor is criminally negligent if, "he ought to be aware of a substantial an unjustifiable risk the result would occur.... ...The risk must be of such a nature that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would have exercised." See, tecaa.com/journal/what-is-criminal-negligence-the-cca-gives-prosecutors-a-clear-rule

I'm not trying to be unnecessarily pedantic. These words are terms of art in this field and have different, precise meanings.

Required mental states in Texas for criminal homicide:
Capital Murder: actor commits more than one murder in criminal episode, or murders somebody special.
Murder: actor must have intentionally or knowingly caused the death. Or intended serious bodily injury, but victim dies.
Manslaughter: actor recklessly causes death.
Crim Neg Homicide: actor causes death of another through gross negligence.
  #15437  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:07 PM
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Talking with Metroplex residents and LEOs elsewhere. I've never been to that part of FW.

Panning around on Google Street View for 1200 E Allen Ave, Fort Worth, it looks lower income, working class: peeling paint, work trucks, older used cars,window A/C units, meh upkeep on the yards. OTOH, no window bars, decent sized lots, and it looks like people there actually work for a living. There aren't people sitting around in plastic chairs drinking out of a bag at 2PM.

Not all that different than the neighborhood where Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas were murdered by Houston P.D. officers.
So you have no first-hand knowledge of whether or not the neighborhood is "bad". And the pictures you've now viewed don't seem to indicate that it is a bad neighborhood?
  #15438  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:18 PM
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The difference is the required mental state of the offender. Manslaughter requires recklessness: a conscious disregard for the risk that the actor's conduct may result in harm to another. Negligence in general is a lesser mental state, and merely requires that the actor breached a duty to the victim, which caused a harm. For Texas law, in the case of criminally negligent homicide, per the Texas District & County Attorney's Association, the actor is criminally negligent if, "he ought to be aware of a substantial an unjustifiable risk the result would occur.... ...The risk must be of such a nature that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would have exercised." See, tecaa.com/journal/what-is-criminal-negligence-the-cca-gives-prosecutors-a-clear-rule

I'm not trying to be unnecessarily pedantic. These words are terms of art in this field and have different, precise meanings.

Required mental states in Texas for criminal homicide:
Capital Murder: actor commits more than one murder in criminal episode, or murders somebody special.
Murder: actor must have intentionally or knowingly caused the death. Or intended serious bodily injury, but victim dies.
Manslaughter: actor recklessly causes death.
Crim Neg Homicide: actor causes death of another through gross negligence.
Given that, wouldn't manslaughter or Crim Neg Homicidebe a more appropriate charge? The recklessness or negligence being not following correct procedure?
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  #15439  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:40 PM
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So you have no first-hand knowledge of whether or not the neighborhood is "bad". And the pictures you've now viewed don't seem to indicate that it is a bad neighborhood?
I think it's a neighborhood I wouldn't want to live in now. It's a neighborhood where most of you, despite the virtue signalling, wouldn't be caught dead in now, if you had any choice at all. I've lived in neighborhoods like that in the past, and gotten my stuff stolen while I lived there, contra Alessan's observation that working class people don't have time to steal, because they're at work. Maybe they don't, but their piece of shit kids and relatives do.

More importantly, it's a neighborhood that, to a hypothetical FW cop, is among the neighborhoods where you might find a drug house where drug manufacturing is going on. Which---to them---might be an explanation for why the door is open when its 45 degrees outside, yet there are people milling around inside.
  #15440  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:43 PM
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Given that, wouldn't manslaughter or Crim Neg Homicidebe a more appropriate charge? The recklessness or negligence being not following correct procedure?
Young black female is killed in a home she had every right to be in, by a white cop. Murder is definitely the appropriate charge.

What I think happened is the stupid bastard freaked out when he saw a gun, had his finger near the trigger, let his hyperaggressive modern American policing training take over his conscious thoughts, and shot someone he saw near a gun. You want to call that murder? OK with me. Maybe it'll encourage the others not to treat every potential problem as a nail needing to be hammered down with multiple gunshots.
  #15441  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:46 PM
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I think it's a neighborhood I wouldn't want to live in now. It's a neighborhood where most of you, despite the virtue signalling, wouldn't be caught dead in now, if you had any choice at all. I've lived in neighborhoods like that in the past, and gotten my stuff stolen while I lived there, contra Alessan's observation that working class people don't have time to steal, because they're at work. Maybe they don't, but their piece of shit kids and relatives do.

More importantly, it's a neighborhood that, to a hypothetical FW cop, is among the neighborhoods where you might find a drug house where drug manufacturing is going on. Which---to them---might be an explanation for why the door is open when its 45 degrees outside, yet there are people milling around inside.
<backs away slowly>

Ok….

Thanks for the reply; it was enlightening.
  #15442  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:49 PM
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Given that, wouldn't manslaughter or Crim Neg Homicidebe a more appropriate charge? The recklessness or negligence being not following correct procedure?
The cop intentionally pulled the trigger. He intended to kill or seriously wound. The death was not an accident caused by recklessness or negligence. Murder is the correct charge. There has been discussion of this aspect of Texas law in the Guyger threads.
  #15443  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:37 PM
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Given that, wouldn't manslaughter or Crim Neg Homicidebe a more appropriate charge? The recklessness or negligence being not following correct procedure?
The recklessness of placing oneself in a bad situation, however, is a separate act from the act of killing Jefferson, which was intentional.

This is why Texas's law against what it called ""murder" has such a wide range of possible sentences; it's because the state has nothing called "second degree murder," is very restrictive on what can be escalated to "Capital murder," and pushes all intentional homicide up from what it calls "manslaughter" into "murder." It's so the courts can sentence appropriately for crimes that clearly deserve different punishments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typo Negative
Unless new facts come to light, I have to assume that the officer believed (wrongly) that he was taking correct action as a police officer. He had no intent to commit a crime.
Neither did Amber Guyger, but she was convicted, and entirely correctly. It's not whether you intend to commit a crime, but whether you intend to commit an act that is a crime. Dean meant to kill Jefferson, which in Texas is an act that violates 19.02 of the Texas Penal Code, "Murder."

The only thing that can save him is if he can demonstrate his decision to kill Jefferson was one of the legal exceptions to the law against murder. It is likely Dean will claim self defense:

https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-c...sect-9-31.html

This will be, based on the body cam, a hard case to make. However, we don't know if Jefferson was pointing a gun at him. If she was that would still be an awful tragedy, because Dean acted stupidly to put them in that position, but it might get him off.
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:40 PM
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If all we do is prosecute the officer - which we probably should in this case - then we're wasting our time. I want people above that guy fired. Police training exists for a reason. He overreacted because he got piss poor training. And if he got great training and was sloppy with his implementation, then they need better oversight. People other than the individual officers need to have a stake in what happens when officers are out on the street. And they need to pay consequences.

I also suspect that police culture is to blame. Officers probably see a lot of things that are never addressed. Things that aren't by the book, but "Screw it, that's just the way we do things 'round here." Things that are probably really alarming but aren't really problems -- until they turn out to be problems.

Last edited by asahi; 10-15-2019 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
I have yet to see or watch a story on this and hear anything about her neighborhood,let alone describing it as "bad". Where did you come across this characterization?
There are black people living in it, some of them even own guns, and one of them was shot by the police. How could it not be a bad neighborhood? Didn't you see the pic the police released (and have sense apologized for) with everything but a firearm blurred out?
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
Unless new facts come to light, I have to assume that the officer believed (wrongly) that he was taking correct action as a police officer. He had no intent to commit a crime. I think that neither officer followed correct procedure and that he fired his weapon out of cowardice, not malice. Maybe one of our law-talking guys can correct me, but that seems like manslaughter, not murder.
He straight up ended the life of a human being who was in her own home doing nothing wrong while under color of law while abusing the authority given to him by the state. If that doesn't fucking qualify as murder, what does? He clearly had intent to commit a crime, he chose to pull out a gun and issue commands to someone to not move, then shoot them. Are you asserting that he was being mind controlled when he chose to sneak up to her house, pull a gun on her, shout commands, and pull the trigger? If not, then it was goddamn well intentional, and trying to claim that it was somehow an accident is disgusting apologia for a murderous cop.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:00 PM
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I agree with most of this. Given the late hour, the bad neighborhood, and the temperature in Fort Worth at that hour (~45 degrees), a house with all its front door wide open, I am guessing, suggested to the arriving police that it was either a burglary, or the inhabitants were cooking a batch of drugs and were trying to vent away the smell.
It's amazing the non-crimes that cops come up with to justify murdering people, especially minorities. Failure to close a door in weather that is chilly results in shot in your own living room in this case. Having a problem with the lock on your door in Dallas results in being shot on your own sofa. I think having the door open suggests that someone either forgot to close the door or chose to leave it open, which I've done myself on numerous occasions.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
It is likely Dean will claim self defense:

https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-c...sect-9-31.html

This will be, based on the body cam, a hard case to make. However, we don't know if Jefferson was pointing a gun at him. If she was that would still be an awful tragedy, because Dean acted stupidly to put them in that position, but it might get him off.
Emphasis mine.

It's a bit chilling to consider what the story would have been, in this case, if the cop in question had not been wearing a bodycam.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:48 PM
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Oh, in that case there'd be no charge. Dean could have said he'd given her ten seconds to answer and she'd threatened to kill him and pointed something that "looked like a gun" at him.
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
Unless new facts come to light, I have to assume that the officer believed (wrongly) that he was taking correct action as a police officer. He had no intent to commit a crime. I think that neither officer followed correct procedure and that he fired his weapon out of cowardice, not malice. Maybe one of our law-talking guys can correct me, but that seems like manslaughter, not murder.
I can get myself into the frame of mind to agree with this. However, you (and I) look at this through the eyes of regular folks. Cops is not regular folks. They are, ostensibly, trained to manage deadly force and to navigate stressful & sketchy situations. Add to that, the cops were playing offense and had the upper hand in every stage of this encounter. All this to say, if we are going to authorize individuals to violate privacy, physically restrain, and in some cases kill citizens, then their behavior needs to be held to a higher than normal standard.

I think it depends on venue, but there are degrees of murder and it all comes down to what the jury believes your intent was. If you jump in your police cruiser and deliberately stalk and assassinate someone, that's pretty much going to be 1st degree murder. If you meant to scare or hurts someone, or just wanted to do something entirely else but someone got killed in the process, that's generally manslaughter. If you're scared shitless staring down the sights of your sidearm at someone who doesn't know you're there, and you pull the trigger, it's pretty hard to argue you pulled the trigger and didn't mean to end a life. You knowingly ended a life, and you did it on purpose, and you had no reason to believe your life was in danger and that egress was not an option.
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