Straight Dope Message Board

[Shalmanese]

British family, on vacation to Canada with their 3 month old baby accidentally wander down an unmarked road into the US and get apprehended by ICE. Despite actually having visas that would allow them to enter the US, they are shipped off to a Philadelphia "baby jail" where they've been held for multiple days now.

This is following the case of a French jogger who accidentally entered jogged too far down a beach and was detained for two weeks in an ICE facility. 15451

[Typo Negative]

Originally Posted by RickJay

T

This will be, based on the body cam, a hard case to make. However, we don't know if Jefferson was pointing a gun at him. If she was that would still be an awful tragedy, because Dean acted stupidly to put them in that position, but it might get him off.

Murder warrant for Fort Worth officer says woman he killed was holding gun in her home

The murder arrest warrant for a white officer who shot and killed a black woman on Saturday says that the victim was holding a gun after she heard noises outside her window.

A witness, the woman’s 8-year-old nephew, told a police investigator that after Atatiana Jefferson heard noises outside her window and thought there might be a prowler outside, she reached into her purse, grabbed a handgun and pointed it toward the window, the warrant said.

Well, it just got muddier. 15452

[manson1972]

British family, on vacation to Canada with their 3 month old baby accidentally wander down an unmarked road into the US and get apprehended by ICE. Despite actually having visas that would allow them to enter the US, they are shipped off to a Philadelphia "baby jail" where they've been held for multiple days now.

This is following the case of a French jogger who accidentally entered jogged too far down a beach and was detained for two weeks in an ICE facility

From the second story: "processed her as an expedited removal"

What could be more expedited than just making her turn around and go back into Canada? 15453

[k9bfriender]

Originally Posted by Typo Negative

Murder warrant for Fort Worth officer says woman he killed was holding gun in her home





Well, it just got muddier.

Muddier in that the defense will cry that the cop was feeling threatened. They may even get off.

Not muddy at all in that this woman's death is entirely that cop's fault.

Unless it is now illegal to arm yourself to deal with a threat that you perceive from outside, which puts about half the "Positive Gun Stories" in hot water. 15454

[k9bfriender]

Originally Posted by manson1972

From the second story: "processed her as an expedited removal"

What could be more expedited than just making her turn around and go back into Canada?

How did they know that she wasn't a terrorist? 15455

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by Typo Negative

Well, it just got muddier.

No it didn't. She had no way of knowing who or where her prowler was, she only knew she was in her own home and had a right to defend herself. The cop knew he was a cop, he knew he was creeping around in someone's yard, knew HE was the one behaving suspiciously, chose not to introduce himself, and slaughtered her like a dog with no reason to suspect she was anything apart from a person in a house.

Innocent until proven guilty. But he presumed she was guilty. Fuck him in the heart. 15456

[Morgyn]

Texas is one of the states with "strong" Stand Your Ground/Castle Doctrine laws.

She had no way to know who was prowling around outside her home, which she had a right to defend under the state's laws.

Apparently, the lawmakers didn't think through what might happen when someone is trying to defend themselves from an unidentified cop. 15457

[Isosleepy]

The woman is not going to be on trial here, the legality of her holding the gun is not at issue. (Were it, though, I imagine it’d be a quick acquittal).
At stake is how justified the cop was in shooting her, and if found he wasn’t, what the consequences are. I believe he will be found to have acted contra his training and established procedures. To me, the logical consequences of killing someone through gross incompetence or violation of procedure should lead to a conviction of the Texas equivalent of manslaughter. Let’s hope DA, grand jury and jury agree.
Of course the real remedy, a complete overhaul of the concept that any action ensuring the officer’s safety is warranted, no matter the cost or reasonableness of the action, will still not be even contemplated. 15458

[Folacin]

Originally Posted by k9bfriender

How did they know that she wasn't a terrorist?

Far be it from me to defend ICE, but from the linked story:

U.S. authorities disputed the family’s version of events, saying they were spotted via video surveillance “slowly and deliberately driving through a ditch onto Boundary Road in Lynden, Washington” between parallel roadways on the U.S. and Canadian sides. The roads are not connected by cross streets, and the only legal way to traverse between the countries is at staffed border stations throughout the region.
AD

In a statement, CBP said U.S. agents also determined that two of the family members had applied for travel authorization to visit the United States and were denied. A senior CBP official said the Connorses applied for visa waivers last year, and it was not immediately clear why they were rejected. The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the case, said the family — four adults and three small children — were in possession of $16,000 in cash at the time of their arrest.

ICE could of course be lying (they've been known to do that), but if you accept their version of the events, then detention is at least reasonable. I do wonder when the determination of denied authorization was made - it seems unlikely that that is the sort of info that would come back quickly on any sort of radio check on somebody. 15459

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Folacin

Far be it from me to defend ICE, but from the linked story:

ICE could of course be lying (they've been known to do that), but if you accept their version of the events, then detention is at least reasonable. I do wonder when the determination of denied authorization was made - it seems unlikely that that is the sort of info that would come back quickly on any sort of radio check on somebody.

Yeah, if the ICE description of their actions is accurate, it definitely sounds like they were intentionally trying to cross the border without authorization.

I lived in Vancouver for a couple of years, and used to make occasional trips down into the US. I've driven along those border roads in the Lynden area, and my main purpose in doing so was just to see what the border looked like. It really was quite interesting, seeing two parallel roads, one in Canada and one in the United States, separated by nothing more than a shallow drainage ditch.

The thing is, unless these people had friends out in that part of the British Columbia border area with the US, there's really not much of a reason for a tourist to go out there. It's just unremarkable flat land, with farms. When I drove out there, it was with the express intention of checking out the border. The idea that they were out there and accidentally drove into the United States is a little difficult to believe, especially in the era of GPS and Google Maps. There are also signs in the area, or at least there used to be, telling you that you're approaching the border. 15460

[Pantastic]

Originally Posted by Isosleepy

The woman is not going to be on trial here, the legality of her holding the gun is not at issue.

While it would be nice if it were true, that's not how trials of police officers killing innocent people go. Just look at the case in neighboring Dallas where Amber Guyger flat out murdered an innocent man, where the cops got a search warrant to look through his apartment for narcotics but never even searched her house. Or look at this case where the police early on released a photo showing everything blurred but a handgun. I will bet good money that a large part of this trial will involve a discussion of just how threatening this black woman daring to play video games with her kids and defend him against a prowler peering in her window and shouting things at her is.

At stake is how justified the cop was in shooting her, and if found he wasn’t, what the consequences are. I believe he will be found to have acted contra his training and established procedures. To me, the logical consequences of killing someone through gross incompetence or violation of procedure should lead to a conviction of the Texas equivalent of manslaughter. Let’s hope DA, grand jury and jury agree.

Disagree completely. Using one's authority as an agent of the state to murder someone should always bump the crime up to a much more severe level, and that's what he did. When he gets the PD releasing images to make him look threatened and a cover-up attempt by the other cop who failed to arrest this murderer when he witnessed a straight up killing, and he's opting to ignore established procedure and common sense in order to attack an innocent person in her own home, none of this 'oh it was an accident' nonsense should apply. If you go up to someone's window, shout stuff at them, then shoot them 1.5 seconds later, this isn't remotely like 'oh there was a fight and things went too far' or 'oh I heard a strange noise and I was scared'. 15461

[Rick Kitchen]

A woman has won a $205,000 lawsuit against San Antonio after undergoing a vaginal search on the side of the street in full public view.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1067266 15462

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen

A woman has won a $205,000 lawsuit against San Antonio after undergoing a vaginal search on the side of the street in full public view.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1067266

Hey, what do you know, she's black. I should go to Vegas, I'm so good with fully random odds. 15463

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen

A woman has won a $205,000 lawsuit against San Antonio after undergoing a vaginal search on the side of the street in full public view.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1067266

1) kinda fucked up that SHE (the innocent person) is identified, but the detective (molester and ongoing public threat) is not.
2) Her lawyer let her down, allowing this to settle for $205k. 15464

[manson1972]

Originally Posted by k9bfriender

How did they know that she wasn't a terrorist?

Only Antifa and Muslims are terrorists. She was white and not wearing a black hoodie. 15465

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

1) kinda fucked up that SHE (the innocent person) is identified, but the detective (molester and ongoing public threat) is not.
2) Her lawyer let her down, allowing this to settle for $205k.

$205,000 is a lot of cabbage, and I imagine her lawyer must be more savvy about the likelihood of winning more in the State of Texas than we are, especially when in this case the city of San Antonio is just deciding to write the check, rather than continuing a possibly long and expensive court battle. 15466

[Isosleepy]

Pushing a suspect of a roof: 8 hour suspension. In other words, the officer gave up a vacation day. https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...d-eight-hours/ 15467

[Rick Kitchen]

Orange County cop put on administrative leave after pulling a gun on a teenager at a skate park after an argument over loud music. The cop was not in uniform and was off duty, and threatened to shoot the kid in the "fucking face".
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019...te-skate-park/ 15468

[manson1972]

Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen

Orange County cop put on administrative leave after pulling a gun on a teenager at a skate park after an argument over loud music. The cop was not in uniform and was off duty, and threatened to shoot the kid in the "fucking face".
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019...te-skate-park/

I bet this is why pro-gun people in California are so concerned about public carrying of weapons, so they can defend citizens against this type of government tyranny. Right? 15469

[Orwell]

Originally Posted by manson1972

I bet this is why pro-gun people in California are so concerned about public carrying of weapons, so they can defend citizens against this type of government tyranny. Right?

Yeah, why not. Or are you in favor of only the cops having guns, since they are always judicious and fair? 15470

[manson1972]

Originally Posted by Orwell

Yeah, why not. Or are you in favor of only the cops having guns, since they are always judicious and fair?

If only cops had guns, what situations do you think would be different in America? Nobody now can use a gun to defend themselves against a cop, so what difference does having a gun make when it comes to the police? 15471

[Isosleepy]

Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen

Orange County cop put on administrative leave after pulling a gun on a teenager at a skate park

Administrative leave, how exactly does it differ from paid time off? 15472

[Monty]

Originally Posted by Isosleepy

Administrative leave, how exactly does it differ from paid time off?

AIUI, Administrative leave is time off that is not charged to your personal leave accrual. 15473

[mhendo]

Arizona. White cop. Black driver. Traffic stop.

Rather than describe it, I'm going to leave you to read through it and/or watch the video yourself, because it's the length of the stop, and the incessant litany of questions, over something that probably isn't even an infraction, that makes this so shitty.

At least no-one was hurt, but it demonstrates the unreasonable and belligerent nature of some police officers. 15474

[Folacin]

Originally Posted by mhendo

At least no-one was hurt, but it demonstrates the unreasonable and belligerent nature of some police officers.

If we take the officer at his word that he wasn't profiling him (and it seems reasonable for at least the initial stop if he couldn't tell from behind, less so for after the litany of questions started) - he's an asshole who shouldn't be cop. 15475

[Sicks Ate]

Originally Posted by Folacin

If we take the officer at his word that he wasn't profiling him (and it seems reasonable for at least the initial stop if he couldn't tell from behind, less so for after the litany of questions started) - he's an asshole who shouldn't be cop.

Lots and lots of those around. He's not much of an anomaly. 15476

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by Monty

AIUI, Administrative leave is time off that is not charged to your personal leave accrual.

:: golf clap :: 15477

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by RickJay

$205,000 is a lot of cabbage, and I imagine her lawyer must be more savvy about the likelihood of winning more in the State of Texas than we are, especially when in this case the city of San Antonio is just deciding to write the check, rather than continuing a possibly long and expensive court battle.

Balls...looks like TX has a cap on punitive damages vs. government of $250k. I'm not sure if that stacks on normal personal injury general damages or not. So that number might not have gotten any better. Still, it's not really about the money. Sexual assault charges in Texas carry 2-20 years. I wonder how tough the sentence was against the cop doing the molesting.

Disregard the constabulary. 15478

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen

A woman has won a $205,000 lawsuit against San Antonio after undergoing a vaginal search on the side of the street in full public view.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1067266

Nitpick: she didn't win a lawsuit. The parties settled for $205,000.00.

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

1) kinda fucked up that SHE (the innocent person) is identified, but the detective (molester and ongoing public threat) is not.
2) Her lawyer let her down, allowing this to settle for $205k.

I'm not a Texas lawyer, but it looks like Texas' sovereign immunity cap for municipalities (basically, the amount that a city can be sued for) is $250,000.00, so a trial wouldn't have earned her much more.

ETA: ninja'd. 15479

[Projammer]

Too bad she couldn't sue to have the officer have to register as a sex offender. 15480

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Balls...looks like TX has a cap on punitive damages vs. government of $250k. I'm not sure if that stacks on normal personal injury general damages or not. So that number might not have gotten any better. Still, it's not really about the money. Sexual assault charges in Texas carry 2-20 years. I wonder how tough the sentence was against the cop doing the molesting.

Disregard the constabulary.

That makes me wonder if $205,000 is a typo, and it really was $250,000. $205K is a weird number to arrive at. 15481

[Muffin]

Originally Posted by RickJay

That makes me wonder if $205,000 is a typo, and it really was $250,000. $205K is a weird number to arrive at.

Possibly.

CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODE


TITLE 5. GOVERNMENTAL LIABILITY


CHAPTER 101. TORT CLAIMS


. . . .

Sec. 101.023. LIMITATION ON AMOUNT OF LIABILITY. (a) Liability of the state government under this chapter is limited to money damages in a maximum amount of $250,000 for each person and $500,000 for each single occurrence for bodily injury or death and $100,000 for each single occurrence for injury to or destruction of property.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), liability of a unit of local government under this chapter is limited to money damages in a maximum amount of $100,000 for each person and $300,000 for each single occurrence for bodily injury or death and $100,000 for each single occurrence for injury to or destruction of property.

(c) Liability of a municipality under this chapter is limited to money damages in a maximum amount of $250,000 for each person and $500,000 for each single occurrence for bodily injury or death and $100,000 for each single occurrence for injury to or destruction of property.

(d) Except as provided by Section 78.001, liability of an emergency service organization under this chapter is limited to money damages in a maximum amount of $100,000 for each person and $300,000 for each single occurrence for bodily injury or death and $100,000 for each single occurrence for injury to or destruction of property.

. . . .

15482

[Pantastic]

Originally Posted by RickJay

That makes me wonder if $205,000 is a typo, and it really was $250,000. $205K is a weird number to arrive at.

It's possible, but $250k is the worst result the city could get by fighting. It would make economic sense that if they thought they'd have to pay $250k in a settlement, they'd rather take it to court where they would have to pay lawyers, but there's a chance they would end up paying nothing or a lesser amount and no chance they'd pay more than the settlement amount. 15483

[SteveG1]

Originally Posted by Sicks Ate

Lots and lots of those around. He's not much of an anomaly.

It sure looks like there are far too many of them, too. And "the system" gives them cover. 15484

[Typo Negative]

Murder trial for Oklahoma City police officer set to begin Monday

Sergeant Keith Sweeney was charged with second-degree murder in Dec. 2017 for the fatal shooting of an unarmed suicidal man identified as Dustin Pigeon. Sweeney and two other officers responded to Pigeon’s house at 1416 SW 20th Street on Nov. 15, 2017, after Pigeon called 911 saying he was going to kill himself.

2 of the officers do not even draw their pistols. One of these officers has a bean-bag shotgun. One has stated that neither of these officers felt threatened.

A third officer approaches the suicidal man with weapon drawn, shouting “Drop it!” and later shouting “I will f-ing shoot you! Get on the ground!”. He then fires 5 times, killing the man.

Sweeney shot Pigeon five times with his weapon and said he thought Pigeon was holding a knife.

So....at least one of these officers is either completely mistaken about why he was there and what he saw, or is lying his ass off. 15485

[Ike Witt]

Yeah, it is often the last guy on the scene who doesn't know what is going on who escalates the situation to deadly force. 15486

[Kobal2]

Jeez, the cops just can't win with you guys, can they ? The guy calls the police to say he's going to kill himself, the police make time in their busy schedule to come and helpfully save him the trouble, and they're STILL the bad guys ? Smh 15487

[SteveG1]

Originally Posted by manson1972

If only cops had guns, what situations do you think would be different in America? Nobody now can use a gun to defend themselves against a cop, so what difference does having a gun make when it comes to the police?

No difference at all, except under "no witnesses" conditions. 15488

[SteveG1]

Originally Posted by Typo Negative

Murder trial for Oklahoma City police officer set to begin Monday


2 of the officers do not even draw their pistols. One of these officers has a bean-bag shotgun. One has stated that neither of these officers felt threatened.

A third officer approaches the suicidal man with weapon drawn, shouting “Drop it!” and later shouting “I will f-ing shoot you! Get on the ground!”. He then fires 5 times, killing the man.



So....at least one of these officers is either completely mistaken about why he was there and what he saw, or is lying his ass off.

I'll take "lying his ass off" for a thousand, Alex. 15489

[Cheesesteak]

I don't think he's lying about anything. He made a very poor choice with a very dangerous weapon and deserves to be very severely punished for it.

If he's lying, then when he was caught on the body cam yelling "drop it" we're saying in that moment he knew it wasn't a knife or any other sort of weapon, but was giving himself some sort of false cover for killing the guy. I don't think that's the case, but even if he thought it was a knife, that's not justification to kill someone. 15490

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by Typo Negative

So....at least one of these officers is either completely mistaken about why he was there and what he saw, or is lying his ass off.

The video is quite clear; this isn't some grainy thing. There is absolutely no reason the man needed to be shot. 15491

[UCBearcats]

Officer Resigns After Throwing Girl To The Ground For Taking Too Much Milk

https://700wlw.iheart.com/content/20...eycZ9wg.mailto 15492

[kayaker]

Heh. He used "stop resisting" on an 11 year old girl. 15493

[Ike Witt]

From the Washington Post article on the story:

Raeford Davis, a former North Charleston officer turned policing reform advocate, said Christensen’s actions were representative of a systemic problem.

“This is not one bad officer,” Davis wrote on Twitter. “This is American policing #JustComply mindset taken to its logically absurd conclusion.”

Maybe so but we have seen lots of cases where complying still got a person shot. 15494

[Typo Negative]

Officer in viral-video shoplifting incident to be fired: Police chief

Jesus, by the way these cops acted, you'd think they were taking down the North Hollywood Bank Shootout suspects.

The officer, identified as Meyer, is then heard yelling at Ames, "I'm gonna put a f------- cap in your f------- head."

"When I tell you to do something, you f------ do it!" Meyer is heard in the video yelling at Ames.

When the officers yelled at Harper to get out of the car, she told them, "I have two kids." One officer responds, "I don't give a s---, put your hands up."

The crime?

Harper's 4-year-old daughter had allegedly taken a doll from the store.

A 4 year old had taken a doll. For this, 2 adults were threatened, humiliated and handcuffed.

This had nothing to do with Law Enforcement. It had everything to do with 'respect my authoritah!!!'

So....the officer will be fired. I'm sure he will hired by another police department in a nearby town.

Hell, this is Arizona. Maybe he can use the video to kick off his campaign to be Sheriff. 15495

[SteveG1]

Originally Posted by kayaker

Heh. He used "stop resisting" on an 11 year old girl.

What a fucking hero. Someone should kick the fuck out of him. 15496

[SteveG1]

Originally Posted by Ike Witt

From the Washington Post article on the story:

Maybe so but we have seen lots of cases where complying still got a person shot.

It doesn't seem to matter anymore, if you comply OR NOT. 15497

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by UCBearcats

Officer Resigns After Throwing Girl To The Ground For Taking Too Much Milk

I wonder if the girl is black? 15498

[Isosleepy]

Originally Posted by Typo Negative

Officer in viral-video shoplifting incident to be fired: Police chief

Jesus, by the way these cops acted, you'd think they were taking down the North Hollywood Bank Shootout suspects.

The key part is that the decision to fire was the chief’s. The board, apparently, saw no problem with this lunatic staying a police officer, recommending a 6 week suspension. 15499

[Shalmanese]

US citizen enters into the bizarre, Kafkaesque world of no rights at the US border because he was trying to pay a customs fee.

An American citizen receives a package from abroad and US customs tells him he needs to pay a customs fee but for some reason, he needs to do it at the Peace Bridge on the US-Canada border. After arriving with no intention of crossing the border and realizing he forgot his wallet at home, he is involuntarily detained, has his car and phone searched without his permission and the other people in the car with him were similarly detained for over an hour.

The man is currently suing the CBP so we'll see if their interpretation ends up standing up in court.

According to the CBP, this was all perfectly legal because the normal due process rights afforded to all Americans are suspended at the border, regardless of whether there was an intention to cross. 15500