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  #10451  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:29 PM
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That's funny - I could have sworn somebody said we were talking about videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests. And here we are talking about your ass. Go figure.

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Shodan
  #10452  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
That's funny - I could have sworn somebody said we were talking about videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests. And here we are talking about your ass. Go figure.

Regards,
Shodan
What we are talking about is your claim that the stated number of complaints was too low to worry about, coupled with you refusing to give a number that would worry you. Simple enough to understand.
  #10453  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:49 PM
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I see we have progressed from you denying you have said things you said, to claiming I have said things I have not. SOP, I suppose.

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Shodan
  #10454  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:53 PM
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I see we have progressed from you denying you have said things you said, to claiming I have said things I have not. SOP, I suppose.

Regards,
Shodan
Buh bye, liar.
  #10455  
Old 03-09-2017, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
How many you got?

The most recent figure I can find is for 2012, which says there were a bit more than 12 million arrests in the US. 62 divided by 12 million works out to 5.1667e-6 according to my calculator. That's larger than zero, I grant you, but as a figure intended to demonstrate that cops are incentivized to lie and that they get away with it, it falls a little short, IMO.

If you have better figures, I am open to persuasion. Got any? If not, feel free to rant so I can mock you - that works too.

Regards,
Shodan
Can be more accurately written as, "I'm going to take this extremely small subset and pretend it's comparable to the entirety of the insanely large and ultimately irrelevant set, then use that to prove my point!"

Using the total number of arrests, while uncomplicated, is lazy at best.

Of those 12,196,959 estimated arrests,

7,868 are for gambling,
16,023 are for embezzlement,
27,003 are for vagrancy,
56,575 for prostitution,
67,046 are for forgery or counterfeiting,
68,845 are for motor vehicle theft,
70,190 are for curfew or loitering,
97,670 are for buying/receiving/possessing stolen property,
107,018 are for offense against the family and children (that are not otherwise accounted for)
153,535 are for fraud,
228,463 are for vandalism,
441,532 are for violating liquor laws,
511,271 are for drunkenness,
543,995 are for disorderly conduct,
1,282,352 are for larceny,
1,282,957 are for driving under the influence,
1,552,432 are for drug abuse violations, and
1,646,212 are for property arson.

That's (still approximately) 7,998,926 arrests for property crimes, misdemeanors, white collar crimes, and other non-dangerous crimes, or crimes where the arrest is a result of an investigation.

Paring the list down to violent crimes, sex offenses (everything from statutory rape to indecency), carrying/possessing weapons, and other assaults leaves us with 2,593,805 arrests. Many of those could be argued about as well, but fuck it, let's save you something. Now, not all of thoses arrests will result in charges, but since there's no easily available, compiled statistics on that, we'll work with what we have.

Out of every 100 arrests brought by police for prosecution, ultimately, ~1 is acquitted in court. Since the article itself deals with cops who were shown to be lying on the stand, we don't have to consider those convicted (in MY perfect world, it's really hard to convict when a key witness is found to be lying, and video evidence supports the defendant).

Using my handy dandy calculator, that gives us 259,380 acquittals. Taking 62 from that, significantly smaller number, gives us a larger, light probably still insignificant number, rounded to .02%, or a couple orders of magnitude difference.

Now, getting to this number still involves a lot of other assumptions, as pointed out in the article:
It assumes there is any video available. No footage at all? Tough shit.
The defendant can afford their own lawyer. Public defense lawyers are overworked across the country. They simply don't have the resources to search exhaustively for possible video of the encounter. Private attorneys stand a much better chance. Too poor to afford your own lawyer who has the time and resources to present your best possible defense? Tough shit.
The footage isn't in the hands of the state. If an officer is willing to perjure himself, what's a little destruction of evidence? The only video available is on a police dashcam or body camera? Tough shit.


Instead of using wildly inappropriate numbers to prove whatever point you're trying to make, you could try to approach it critically. It might still give you some support without being a grotesque imitation of integrity.

FYI, 2015 data is easily available, along with preliminary 2016 data. 2015 data shows a roughly 11% decrease in overall arrests.

Now, I'm not saying your google-fu was lazy, or that your blind advocacy of even gross misconduct by police is appalling.

I'm just saying your math is shit.
  #10456  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:12 PM
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What is the percentage of videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests?

That's what Czarcasm claimed we were talking about, although he later denied that he meant it.
Quote:
Out of every 100 arrests brought by police for prosecution, ultimately, ~1 is acquitted in court.
How many of those acquittals are due to police being shown to have lied by videotape?

Regards,
Shodan

PS - I am not saying your math is shit.

PPS - OK, yes I am.

Last edited by Shodan; 03-09-2017 at 03:13 PM.
  #10457  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
What is the percentage of videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests?
Strangely enough, we don't have that number. That's why I compared videotaped discrepancies that resulted in acquittals or tossed cases to overall acquittals.

Quote:
How many of those acquittals are due to police being shown to have lied by videotape?
From your math...62.

Do try to keep up.
  #10458  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
How many of those acquittals are due to police being shown to have lied by videotape?
.
More importantly, how many of the convictions are due to police not being shown to have lied, because they weren't videotaped?

Show your work.
  #10459  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:47 PM
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More importantly, how many of the convictions are due to police not being shown to have lied, because they weren't videotaped?

Show your work.
I can do that! 62. Or 12,196,897 (12,196,959 - 62). Or something. I haven't really figured out Shodan-math, so my numbers could be iffy.
  #10460  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:55 PM
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What is the percentage of videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests?

Are we including those incidents recorded by civilians or only those by police?
  #10461  
Old 03-09-2017, 04:08 PM
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Both.

Regards,
Shodan
  #10462  
Old 03-09-2017, 04:47 PM
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What is the percentage of videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests?
The bigger issue is how seldom convictions of police are made when they do shit like this, particularly if it is not caught on video.

Last edited by Muffin; 03-09-2017 at 04:47 PM.
  #10463  
Old 03-10-2017, 07:51 AM
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The bigger issue is how seldom convictions of police are made when they do shit like this, particularly if it is not caught on video.
OK - in what percentage of cases are police acquitted even though there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt apart from videotape?

Since you claim it is a bigger issue, it must be more than 62 out of whatever figure y'all are pulling out of your respective asses.

Regards,
Shodan
  #10464  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:01 AM
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To be convicted, they first have to be charged. A big part of the problem is self-policing, or the lack thereof, in your police culture.
  #10465  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:17 AM
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In what percentage of cases are police not charged even though there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt apart from videotape?

Regards,
Shodan
  #10466  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:21 AM
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I'd like to live in a perfect world too, but I don't know of any.

OK, so somebody picked 62 cherries. How big is the orchard? How much better do you think we can do? What will it cost, in money and effort?

I realize this is the Pit. If you'd rather have your outrage, fine with me, providing you don't mind being made fun of.

Regards,
Shodan
It's funny how this attitude of yours goes out the window when voter ID laws and voter fraud comes up.

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  #10467  
Old 03-10-2017, 10:06 AM
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What's funny is watching the lefties squirm around and try to change the subject when they lose an argument.

Regards,
Shodan
  #10468  
Old 03-10-2017, 10:18 AM
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Here ya go.

But let's start with why police departments in your country are not required to report fatal shootings by police to the FBI.
  #10469  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:19 PM
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Here ya go.

But let's start with why police departments in your country are not required to report fatal shootings by police to the FBI.
What percentage of those were video recorded? How does it compare to the 16,023 arrests for embezzlement in 2012?
  #10470  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:02 PM
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Here ya go.

But let's start with why police departments in your country are not required to report fatal shootings by police to the FBI.
No, I would rather stick to the subject.

Is it your contention that you have provided a cite of the percentage of cases where police were not charged even though there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt apart from videotape?

Regards,
Shodan
  #10471  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:11 PM
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Why would I be even slightly interested in doing your homework? If you doubt what your own eyes see in a vid, for example, a police vehicle turning left and hitting a pedestrian, or you doubt the assertion made by the originator of the page it was posted on, by all means dig deeper. I'm not about to do your work for you, or waste my time playing fetch for you.

Regards.

Last edited by Muffin; 03-10-2017 at 01:11 PM.
  #10472  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:47 PM
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Just making it clear that your opinion isn't based on anything real.

Regards,
Shodan
  #10473  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:03 PM
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Police in North Carolina pull over an Uber driver. When he begins to record their interactions, they tell him he's violating a new law against recording police. The Uber driver, whose day job is as a defense attorney, disagrees. They pull him out of the car and search it and him without his consent.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/P...m-10992745.php
  #10474  
Old 03-10-2017, 05:22 PM
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What's funny is watching the lefties squirm around and try to change the subject when they lose an argument.

Regards,
Shodan
I don't remember engaging in any arguments with you lately, but you die hard Trump supporters never can seem to keep things straight.
  #10475  
Old 03-10-2017, 06:57 PM
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Just making it clear that your opinion isn't based on anything real.

Regards,
Shodan
cite?
  #10476  
Old 03-11-2017, 11:15 AM
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Police in North Carolina pull over an Uber driver. When he begins to record their interactions, they tell him he's violating a new law against recording police. The Uber driver, whose day job is as a defense attorney, disagrees. They pull him out of the car and search it and him without his consent.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/P...m-10992745.php
According to this version: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...dts7js22fn7b9&

They said a K9 alerted on the car which prompted the search. We've all know how accurate K9's are, but it gives them the probable cause they need to search.
  #10477  
Old 03-11-2017, 06:22 PM
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Right. One of those police K9s that alert on whatever car the cops want to search.
  #10478  
Old 03-14-2017, 12:40 PM
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Video released from an incident a few years back, showing Alabama police shooting a man with no provocation, then leaving him rolling on the ground without help for several minutes. Some of these incidents appear to be created by the officers themselves, and the more they make citizens fear them, the more they come to fear the citizens, in a dangerous spiral of fear escalation.
  #10479  
Old 03-15-2017, 02:26 PM
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Video released from an incident a few years back, showing Alabama police shooting a man with no provocation, then leaving him rolling on the ground without help for several minutes.
I missed the part where they shot him with no provocation. Your cite only mentions the affirmation of the federal appeals court ruling that a reasonable person in the cops' position would have feared for his life.

Did you have a cite for what you claimed?

Regards,
Shodan
  #10480  
Old 03-18-2017, 05:20 PM
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So apparently, what amounts to boiling a man alive is not enough cause to charge correction officers with a crime.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/fl...-death-9213190

Quote:

As punishment, four corrections officers — John Fan Fan, Cornelius Thompson, Ronald Clarke and Edwina Williams — kept Rainey in that shower for two full hours. Rainey was heard screaming "Please take me out! I can’t take it anymore!” and kicking the shower door. Inmates said prison guards laughed at Rainey and shouted "Is it hot enough?"

Rainey died inside that shower. He was found crumpled on the floor. When his body was pulled out, nurses said there were burns on 90 percent of his body. A nurse said his body temperature was too high to register with a thermometer. And his skin fell off at the touch.

But in an unconscionable decision, Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle's office announced Friday that the four guards who oversaw what amounted to a medieval-era boiling will not be charged with a crime.
Fuck that bitch, fuck those officers. Yet another example of this ass-hats getting away with murder and that the system just doesn't work.

Last edited by Kinthalis; 03-18-2017 at 05:24 PM.
  #10481  
Old 03-18-2017, 05:38 PM
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So apparently, what amounts to boiling a man alive is not enough cause to charge correction officers with a crime.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/fl...-death-9213190



Fuck that bitch, fuck those officers. Yet another example of this ass-hats getting away with murder and that the system just doesn't work.
Wow. This is horrific.
  #10482  
Old 03-18-2017, 07:49 PM
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Wow. This is horrific.
Except based on the article, it's not true.

Quote:
"In response to specific questions by Detective Sanchez regarding burns, Dr. [Emma] Lew advised that Rainey did not sustain any obvious external injuries, and, particularly, that there were no thermal injuries (burns) of any kind on his body," the report says. It then adds that from 2012 to 2014, no cause of death was determined.
When the autopsy says that, it's pretty obvious why no-one's been charged.
  #10483  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:06 PM
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Except based on the article, it's not true.



When the autopsy says that, it's pretty obvious why no-one's been charged.
The article also says:
Quote:
Quote:
Fernandez Rundle's 72-page close-out memo leans heavily on an autopsy that has been roundly criticized by civil-rights advocates. The report claims Rainey was not found with burns when he died. Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida American Civil Liberties Association, has said in the past that the autopsy, which was leaked to the press during the investigation, showed that a federal investigation was needed.

Rundle's office, however, noted that one Miami-Dade County cop reported that nurses said Rainey's body had "red areas" on it, and that his skin was, indeed, "slipping off" after being removed from the shower. Rundle's memo said, however, that this could have instead been due to "body decomposition," rather than burns.
Rather rapid decomposition. It sounds like there are some issues with the autopsy report.
  #10484  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:11 PM
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Except based on the article, it's not true.



When the autopsy says that, it's pretty obvious why no-one's been charged.
So what happened? Dude slipped and died while being tortured with hot water in the shower by these psychopaths? just a happy coincidence?
  #10485  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:35 PM
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So what happened? Dude slipped and died while being tortured with hot water in the shower by these psychopaths? just a happy coincidence?
I think that there's significant doubt that there was any torture, given that the autopsy showed he was unharmed. So, no chance of a conviction, so no ethical prosecutor could charge them.
  #10486  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:46 PM
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It could be that this really was just an unfortunate set of circumstances, but the report and the delays in this case both stink of institutional ass-covering. From the Miami Herald:
Quote:
Among the most controversial portions of the state inquiry is the temperature of the shower. The report gives no indication that crime scene investigators turned on the water to see how hot it ran. A prison captain, assigned as the environmental health and safety officer, tested it two days after Rainey’s death and found it to be 160 degrees, far greater than the 120-degree limit set by the state.

<snip>

The final report does not address why the case was put on hold, or why, nearly five years later, the autopsy has never been released.

Dr. Emma Lew, Miami-Dade’s medical examiner, was emphatic, however, that Rainey did not suffer burns of any kind, and there was no evidence of any trauma on his body, according to the state attorney’s report issued Friday.

However, a never-released preliminary report written the day of the autopsy refers to “visible trauma … throughout the decedent’s body.”

A nurse told the Herald early on that Rainey’s body temperature that night was so high it could not be measured on a thermometer.
You can read the whole report yourself, if you're interested. Some interesting bits include:
Quote:
Dr. Lew noted that people with schizophrenia have a "dysregulation of body temperature, including an impaired ability to compensate to heat stress." Therefore, placing Rainey in the shower atmosphere for a prolonged period of time with his mental condition (schizophrenia) could have created an impaired ability to deal with heat stress.

<snip>

Dr. Lew noted that Rainey had an elevated body temperature (as taken by a nurse) after he was taken out of the shower and his temperature was still elevated hours later when it was taken as part of the autopsy protocol. Without knowing what inmate Rainey' s temperature was before he was placed in the shower, it is hard for Dr. Lew to assess this fact. The only comment she could make was that, along with knowledge of the time of death, elevated temperature contributed to decomposition and most likely to his skin slippage.

pp. 53-55
So placing him a shower for a prolonged period could have impaired his ability to cope with the heat. Also, the coroner concedes that a nurse observed an elevated body temp "hours later," but won't attach any significance to that because she doesn't have a reading from before he was placed in the shower.

The conclusion offered by the doctor was:
Quote:
The cause of death is schizophrenia, atherosclerotic heart disease and confinement inside the shower room. There was no evidence of any intent to harm Rainey, only for him to wash off the feces he had smeared on his body. The appropriate manner of death is accident.

p. 55.
Firstly, even the coroner concludes that the confinement in the shower room was one of the causes of death. If that's true, then surely the next question should be, "Was there any good reason to keep a prisoner confined in a running shower for a period of almost two hours?"

Secondly, the doctor concluded that there was "no evidence of any intent to harm Rainey." I was unaware that the question of intent in cases like this was left up to the medical examiner, rather than police investigators. How did the doctor arrive at a conclusion about intent? Did she interview the guards? Did she talk to other prisoners? Could she somehow magically divine the question of intent from the physical state of the body? Is she a mind reader?

In the legal conclusion, the report exonerates the officers of any intent to harm Rainey, and regarding his placement in the shower, the report notes:
Quote:
Placing an inmate who has defecated upon himself in a shower to decontaminate himself is not conduct that is criminally reckless. Moreover, the fact that there were no burns on Rainey's body substantially and convincingly refutes any possible claim that he was either intentionally or unintentionally exposed to excessively hot water. The shower itself was neither dangerous nor
unsafe.

pp. 71-72.
All of this seems, at first glance, to be perfectly reasonable. If a prisoner defecates on himself, he needs cleaning, and placing him in a shower seems like a reasonable course of action.

But never does the report move beyond this to make any assessment of whether it is reasonable to leave a prisoner in a shower for a period of two hours, and nor does it infer anything regarding intent from this extended time period that the prisoner was left in the shower. I mean, if we're talking about drawing reasonable inferences here, I'm having trouble thinking of any reason other than punishment. Whether or not an inmate has medical or psychological problems, I can't think of a good reason to keep a prisoner confined in a shower for such a long period of time, especially when there are a number of witnesses who say that they heard him screaming to get out.

The report makes much of the fact that the witness testimony was inconsistent, but dismisses some of the inconsistencies among the prison staff. It also completely dismisses the claim of excessively hot water made by a few of the prisoners. As the Miami Herald notes, the report says at one stage that only a single prisoner complained about excessively hot water, but another section of the report has two other prisoners making similar allegations.

The report also spends a lot of time criticizing one of the most vocal prisoners and his testimony, focusing on his criminal convictions. This is, of course, a very convenient strategy in an institution where any prisoner who complains about anything has, by definition, a criminal conviction or he wouldn't be there in the first place. Also, as the Herald notes, this same prisoner was, completely coincidentally, transferred out of state on the same day that the report was released.
  #10487  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:48 PM
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So the police officer who said his skin was slipping of when he was removed from the shower- lying, i guess? Or the nurses?

Last edited by raventhief; 03-18-2017 at 08:49 PM.
  #10488  
Old 03-18-2017, 09:11 PM
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So the police officer who said his skin was slipping of when he was removed from the shower- lying, i guess? Or the nurses?
That or the doctor who performed the autopsy. Unless there's good reason to believe the doctor is the one who's wrong, there's no case.

I don't know what happened. It's probable that the prosecutor doesn't either. So, there's no justification for charging them.
  #10489  
Old 03-22-2017, 01:57 PM
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We cannot trust bodycam video from police


A cop fires. A teen dies. Yet six police body cameras somehow miss what happens

Yup, Stinks to high heaven. 6 bodycams, none caught the action. Sure.

Quote:
Federal investigators said in December that they were probing allegations that police tampered with video evidence in the case, underscoring broader questions about whether a nationwide rollout of body cameras is fulfilling promises of greater accountability.
Quote:
The clearest look at Hawkes’s final moments could have come from the shooter himself, Officer Jeremy Dear. But his camera was not recording when he fired five shots at point-blank range, leaving Hawkes dying alongside a small handgun that Dear claimed she pointed at him just before he fired.
Bolding mine.

Quote:
The mystery of how so many body cameras missed the incident deepened in November with the release of a sworn affidavit from a former Albuquerque police employee, Reynaldo Chavez, who was the custodian of public records, including video evidence, before being fired in 2015. He said it was routine for officials to delete, alter or refuse to release footage because of “political calculations.”
Quote:
Chavez testified that three videos from the Hawkes case showed signs of alterations and a possible deletion.
  #10490  
Old 03-22-2017, 02:28 PM
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It's probable that the prosecutor doesn't either. So, there's no justification for charging them.
So you seem to be saying that the prosecutor needs to know the facts of a case before they are established in court, to press charges?
  #10491  
Old 03-22-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike Witt View Post
So you seem to be saying that the prosecutor needs to know the facts of a case before they are established in court, to press charges?
To a somewhat lesser standard of proof, yes. The standard for being legally able to prosecute is lower that the ethical one.
  #10492  
Old 03-22-2017, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
A cop fires. A teen dies. Yet six police body cameras somehow miss what happens

Yup, Stinks to high heaven. 6 bodycams, none caught the action. Sure.


Bolding mine.
You know how it is with those newfangled whizbang gizmos. They sometimes just conk out. Again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. Whaddayagonnado, amirite ? Nothing to see here, just your run of the mill technical glitch. Es.
  #10493  
Old 03-22-2017, 03:35 PM
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You know how it is with those newfangled whizbang gizmos. They sometimes just conk out. Again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. Whaddayagonnado, amirite ? Nothing to see here, just your run of the mill technical glitch. Es.
The technology is young, and should not be exposed to violence.
  #10494  
Old 03-23-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
A cop fires. A teen dies. Yet six police body cameras somehow miss what happens

Yup, Stinks to high heaven. 6 bodycams, none caught the action. Sure.



Bolding mine.
This needs to be investigated but with the current atty general, who knows.
  #10495  
Old 03-23-2017, 02:41 PM
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This needs to be investigated but with the current atty general, who knows.
I think we all know, unfortunately.
  #10496  
Old 03-23-2017, 02:52 PM
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This needs to be investigated but with the current atty general, who knows.
This happened three years ago, and it was investigated. Darn that Eric Holder for his cover ups!

Regards,
Shodan
  #10497  
Old 03-23-2017, 05:42 PM
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Meaning what, exactly? It is not going to be investigated. Not because of any administration. There is no evidence. Because the cops control the evidence. That was the point of the post. The only way to even get an investigation is to have a bystander record the action on a cell phone.
  #10498  
Old 03-27-2017, 09:45 PM
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Unarmed legal resident in critical condition after ICE agents raided Chicago home and shot him: family
Quote:
After speaking with Torres’ daughter, the People’s Response Team added that “no members of the family are undocumented, and the family has lived in the home for at least 30 years.”
  #10499  
Old 03-28-2017, 01:32 AM
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ICE couldn't legally have done a raid without a warrant. If everyone in the house was documented, whose name was on the warrant? I wish we could get more details.
  #10500  
Old 03-28-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
This happened three years ago, and it was investigated. Darn that Eric Holder for his cover ups!

Regards,
Shodan
AFAICT the investigation is ongoing. "Federal investigators said in December that they were probing allegations that police tampered with video evidence in the case, underscoring broader questions about whether a nationwide rollout of body cameras is fulfilling promises of greater accountability."

Who knows what happens to that investigation under this Attorney General. I have some hope because the victim in this case was white.

I disagree with the general sentiment that we cannot trust body cams. I think that there may be some "best practices" issues. But if the argument is that we can't trust body cams because the police are corrupt then we have an issue that defies all solutions. How would you fix a police force that destroys evidence like this? Sensitivity training?
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