Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-05-2018, 05:04 PM
robardin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Flushing, NY
Posts: 4,766

What By The Rules of Major League Baseball...?!


My son likes to think of the corner cases... I'm pround of him that way.



These are some rules questions he asked me the other day at a baseball game that I told him I'd have to look up, which means of course, I'm asking the SDMB because using Google is going to be more work and less amusing.



Every so often a major league baseball player forgets how many outs there were, and starts jogging towards the dugout after the second out. (I don't think this ever happens after the FIRST out.) Sometimes, if he caught a fly ball for the second out, he even tosses the ball into the stands... And some of THOSE times, there are runners on base. In which case, all runners get to advance two bases.



Same thing if an infielder or catcher slings the ball to first base REALLY wildly, and it goes into the stands - all runners advance two bases.



Meanwhile, it happens every so often that a ball in play bounces into the stands for a ground rule double, which limits a guy on first base to stopping at third base, even if there were two outs and he was a fast runner already in motion with the pitch and would obviously have scored.



So, what prevents an outfielder from intentionally throwing the ball into the stands to keep a runner on first base from scoring the winning run in the bottom of the ninth? I think there's some kind of clause that the umpires can award MORE than two bases at their discretion under certain conditions, a general "you're making a mockery of the game" clause or something, to give them leeway to deal with creative attempts to game the system.



He also wondered, in watching all the trash blowing around the field on a windy day: is airborne debris deemed "in play"? What if the shortstop was just about to glove a ball when the ball hits a hot dog wrapper that suddenly blows right in front of it, and he messes up the pick - is that an error? Certainly any baserunners get to take advantage of it, I'd think, but would the batter get credited for an infield hit?



What if that wrapper messed up a ball as its pitched to the batter, is it a do-over or is it just a ball? If it's bad enough that the catcher can't catch it, is it a wild pitch or a passed ball?



Or would it be like the time Randy Johnson threw a fastball that an unlucky seagull got in front of somehow, and exploded in a shower of feathers? That is the canonical example of the very rare call of "no pitch". But I don't think there is a fielding equivalent, is there? If an African Pinstriped Swallow swooped down and carried off a fly ball into the distance just as Tony Tarasco was about to catch it, too bad, it's a home run?



Is a pitch grazing a player's beard considered a hit by pitch? Since the ball grazing the uniform (and not actually striking the batter's body) is deemed a HBP, it would see one's beard would count, too. So, could a batter grow out a really long, Pharaonic or Ancient Assyrian type beard, waxed stiff, that jutted out 2 feet from his chin... And move in such a way as to intentially draw contact with a pitch to get on base?



I said that could get ruled by the umpire as not trying to avoid the pitch, but we all know there are times when a batter all but or even clearly attempts to lean into the pitch to draw a HBP and still get awarded first base (so long as he doesn't actually project himself into the strike zone), so maybe "Walk Like An Egyptian" could find another life as "Get To First Base Like An Egyptian"?

Last edited by robardin; 04-05-2018 at 05:07 PM.
  #2  
Old 04-05-2018, 06:07 PM
OldGuy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,418
I'm not going to give you specific cites on this as they've revamped and reordered the baseball rule book since I gave up umpiring. You can get a pdf of the rules on line. Here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by robardin View Post
So, what prevents an outfielder from intentionally throwing the ball into the stands to keep a runner on first base from scoring the winning run in the bottom of the ninth?
If the throw into the stands is by an infielder, each runner is awarded two bases from his position at the time of the pitch. If the throw is by an outfielder, each runner is awarded two bases from the last base he touched at the time of the throw. If the runner had not yet reached second by the time the outfielder had the ball, I very much doubt he could score.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robardin View Post
If an African Pinstriped Swallow swooped down and carried off a fly ball into the distance just as Tony Tarasco was about to catch it, too bad, it's a home run?
If a batted or thrown ball hits something on the field like a bird, it is in play. There was a minor league game in which an apparent home run hit a bird in flight and the ball was then caught by an outfielder for an out. I suspect if some animal picked a ball up off the ground and flew or ran it into the stands an umpire would not award a home run, but a double. If a bird caught one in flight, I don't know, but that would be a big bird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robardin View Post
Is a pitch grazing a player's beard considered a hit by pitch? And move in such a way as to intentially draw contact with a pitch to get on base?[/b]
Being hit on the beard would be considered a HBP. Intentionally getting hit wold not work, though an ump is not a mind reader. Also if the beard was hanging into the strike zone when it was hit, that would also not be a HBP.
  #3  
Old 04-05-2018, 06:37 PM
robardin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Flushing, NY
Posts: 4,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post
Being hit on the beard would be considered a HBP. Intentionally getting hit wold not work, though an ump is not a mind reader. Also if the beard was hanging into the strike zone when it was hit, that would also not be a HBP.

Yes, but imagine a guy doing the hip jerk back out of the way of an inside pitch... Looking down at the ball... Which points his chin down pointing at his feet... And the ball grazes his two foot beard. Aww yeah.
  #4  
Old 04-05-2018, 06:56 PM
mixdenny is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Cleveland suburbs
Posts: 1,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by robardin View Post
Is a pitch grazing a player's beard considered a hit by pitch? Since the ball grazing the uniform (and not actually striking the batter's body) is deemed a HBP, it would see one's beard would count, too. So, could a batter grow out a really long, Pharaonic or Ancient Assyrian type beard, waxed stiff, that jutted out 2 feet from his chin... And move in such a way as to intentially draw contact with a pitch to get on base??
I think your son has a fine career ahead of him as a defense lawyer.

Dennis
  #5  
Old 04-05-2018, 08:23 PM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,749
Hereís another situation Iíve always wondered about. Why does someone attempting to steal a base wait until the pitcher has the ball before taking off? Wouldnít it make sense to try to steal when the catcher is throwing the ball back to the pitcher after a pitch that the batter didnít swing at?
  #6  
Old 04-05-2018, 10:53 PM
Robot Arm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Medford, MA
Posts: 23,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by robardin View Post
Is a pitch grazing a player's beard considered a hit by pitch? Since the ball grazing the uniform (and not actually striking the batter's body) is deemed a HBP, it would see one's beard would count, too. So, could a batter grow out a really long, Pharaonic or Ancient Assyrian type beard, waxed stiff, that jutted out 2 feet from his chin... And move in such a way as to intentially draw contact with a pitch to get on base?
If the intention is to make the beard, and therefore the batter, more hittable, I think you'd want it to cover as much area as possible. Rather than a slender, Pharaonic beard, I think you'd do better with a large fan shape, akin to a pelican.
  #7  
Old 04-05-2018, 11:25 PM
OldGuy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
Hereís another situation Iíve always wondered about. Why does someone attempting to steal a base wait until the pitcher has the ball before taking off? Wouldnít it make sense to try to steal when the catcher is throwing the ball back to the pitcher after a pitch that the batter didnít swing at?
You do see "delayed" steals sometimes, but I suspect it's not as easy as you'd think. When a pitch is coming in, the catcher is in a crouch and usually must stand up to throw it well, may not be catch it cleanly, is watching the pitch intently, and needs to throw the ball 120+ feet to second base, and doesn't really have any "motion" that the runner can run on.

The only advantage a delayed steal has over a regular steal, apart from surprise, is that the cather's throw to the pitcher is going slower. A pitcher throws at about 90 mph or about 120 fps. So it takes the pitch about half a second from the pitcher to the catcher. If the catcher throws back
at half the pitcher's speed (?) you only gain half a second of time, and the pitcher has a much shorter second throw than the catcher would.
  #8  
Old 04-06-2018, 12:15 AM
Regallag_The_Axe's Avatar
Regallag_The_Axe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: United States of Leifholm
Posts: 3,231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post
If the intention is to make the beard, and therefore the batter, more hittable, I think you'd want it to cover as much area as possible. Rather than a slender, Pharaonic beard, I think you'd do better with a large fan shape, akin to a pelican.
Use hair gel to shape your beard into many long, thin spikes, to increase the chance of a pitch hitting any one of them.
__________________
PMA to the grave
  #9  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:00 AM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 41,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
Hereís another situation Iíve always wondered about. Why does someone attempting to steal a base wait until the pitcher has the ball before taking off? Wouldnít it make sense to try to steal when the catcher is throwing the ball back to the pitcher after a pitch that the batter didnít swing at?
While this does happen occasionally, it's a surprise play. The reason the runner usually begins a steal as the pitcher is delivering the pitch is because that gives him more time to steal the base.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #10  
Old 04-06-2018, 06:31 AM
robardin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Flushing, NY
Posts: 4,766
Hmm, maybe Blackbeard style chin-dreads would be a good strategy. You can claim it's a legitimate Pirate Look you're going for, while getting a facial bead curtain to work in your favor to keep looking help get on base on the inside pitches.
  #11  
Old 04-06-2018, 06:41 AM
robardin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Flushing, NY
Posts: 4,766

What By The Rules of Major League Baseball...?!


Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post

If a batted or thrown ball hits something on the field like a bird, it is in play. There was a minor league game in which an apparent home run hit a bird in flight and the ball was then caught by an outfielder for an out. I suspect if some animal picked a ball up off the ground and flew or ran it into the stands an umpire would not award a home run, but a double. If a bird caught one in flight, I don't know, but that would be a big bird.

But when Jose Canseco misplayed a fly ball short of the warning track and it bounced off the top of his head and over the wall some ten feet away - the infamous "Dome Run" was scored a homer.

So if an actual fielder can record the assist, so to speak, and a live bird is considered not "fan interference" but simply part of the field in play - which also happened to Kevin McReynolds in 1987 when a bird in flight converted a routine double play into an RBI double - then wouldn't it stand to reason that an avian interception would be like if a blown hot dog wrapper somehow scooped a deep fly ball over the wall?

I mean, it'd be a different story if it was a trained bird working in tandem one of those self-named "ball hawks" who pursue catching home run balls at ballparks. But I'm talking a wild bird.

Last edited by robardin; 04-06-2018 at 06:43 AM.
  #12  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:00 AM
Tom Tildrum is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Falls Church, Va.
Posts: 14,004
Birds and ballparks do not always mix well. (video)
  #13  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:24 AM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Yet again, Titletown
Posts: 22,849
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
While this does happen occasionally, it's a surprise play. The reason the runner usually begins a steal as the pitcher is delivering the pitch is because that gives him more time to steal the base.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
https://www.mlb.com/video/must-c-bra...s/c-1908854483
  #14  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:32 PM
That Don Guy's Avatar
That Don Guy is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by robardin View Post
So, what prevents an outfielder from intentionally throwing the ball into the stands to keep a runner on first base from scoring the winning run in the bottom of the ninth? I think there's some kind of clause that the umpires can award MORE than two bases at their discretion under certain conditions, a general "you're making a mockery of the game" clause or something, to give them leeway to deal with creative attempts to game the system.
As said earlier, it is two bases from the time of the throw. Presumably, if the winning run has not reached second yet, it makes little sense to throw the ball into the stands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robardin View Post
He also wondered, in watching all the trash blowing around the field on a windy day: is airborne debris deemed "in play"? What if the shortstop was just about to glove a ball when the ball hits a hot dog wrapper that suddenly blows right in front of it, and he messes up the pick - is that an error? Certainly any baserunners get to take advantage of it, I'd think, but would the batter get credited for an infield hit?

What if that wrapper messed up a ball as its pitched to the batter, is it a do-over or is it just a ball? If it's bad enough that the catcher can't catch it, is it a wild pitch or a passed ball?[/B]
I'm pretty sure you treat the pitch as if it didn't touch the wrapper (e.g. whether it is a WP or PB depends on whether or not the catcher could have caught it with ordinary effort).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
Hereís another situation Iíve always wondered about. Why does someone attempting to steal a base wait until the pitcher has the ball before taking off? Wouldnít it make sense to try to steal when the catcher is throwing the ball back to the pitcher after a pitch that the batter didnít swing at?
Usually, he waits until the pitcher starts his motion toward the plate - because if the pitcher then stops to turn around, it is a balk. I have seen a number of high school games where, with a runner on first, the pitcher starts a full windup, and the coach (and usually a few of his teammates as well) immediately yells at the player to steal second.
  #15  
Old 04-08-2018, 03:03 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,369
I have seen baserunners steal on the throw back to the pitcher. It can happen if the catcher gets lazy and inattentive, and just lobs the throw without paying attention to the runner. An alert catcher can make a snap throw to first base if a runner is taking too big a lead. The danger of being put out this way forces the runner to retreat to the bag once the catcher has the ball.

With a conventional stolen base (i.e. the runner takes off with the pitch), the ball has to travel a lot farther than with this type of "sneak" stolen base. First the pitch has to go from the pitcher to the catcher, and then from the catcher to the base. This negates a lot of the advantage a runner might get with a "sneak" steal attempt on a lobbed throw back to the pitcher.

The pitcher Jon Lester of the Cubs has problems throwing to first base, both on batted balls hit back to him and on pickoff plays. He tends to freeze up and make inaccurate throws. I don't know if he has the same problems throwing to other bases; if so, it would probably be possible to do the "sneak" steal against him.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #16  
Old 04-08-2018, 03:16 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,369
Here's one I've wondered about for a while. The rules say that baserunners are supposed to return to their bases after an uncaught foul ball, and that the umpire-in-chief shouldn't put the ball back in play until this happens. It's common, though, for a new ball to be put in play without the runners retouching their bases. The rules don't specify a penalty for this, as far as I can tell. What would happen if, say, on a foul ball a runner on first base wandered over to within a foot of second and then stepped over and touched second as soon as the pitcher toed the rubber? Of course, this would be a big mistake on the part of the umpires, but how could they fix it? Would it be possible to tag the runner out at second even if he's touching the base (because he's not entitled to it)? Would an appeal play at first be possible? Would the umpires just call time out and order the runner to return to first?
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #17  
Old 04-08-2018, 04:22 PM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 41,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
Here's one I've wondered about for a while. The rules say that baserunners are supposed to return to their bases after an uncaught foul ball, and that the umpire-in-chief shouldn't put the ball back in play until this happens. It's common, though, for a new ball to be put in play without the runners retouching their bases. The rules don't specify a penalty for this, as far as I can tell. What would happen if, say, on a foul ball a runner on first base wandered over to within a foot of second and then stepped over and touched second as soon as the pitcher toed the rubber? Of course, this would be a big mistake on the part of the umpires, but how could they fix it? Would it be possible to tag the runner out at second even if he's touching the base (because he's not entitled to it)? Would an appeal play at first be possible? Would the umpires just call time out and order the runner to return to first?
The proper call is to call time and return the runner to first.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!

Last edited by RickJay; 04-08-2018 at 04:22 PM.
  #18  
Old 04-09-2018, 09:30 AM
BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 21,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post
If the throw into the stands is by an infielder, each runner is awarded two bases from his position at the time of the pitch. If the throw is by an outfielder, each runner is awarded two bases from the last base he touched at the time of the throw. If the runner had not yet reached second by the time the outfielder had the ball, I very much doubt he could score.

I have to question this. I always thought it was two bases beyond the base last possessed at the time the ball is thrown by the fielder, regardless of who it is. Unless it's the pitcher, in which case the "one from the rubber, two from the field" rule applies.

Sometimes you'll see a fielder hand the ball to a fan, thinking it was the third out when indeed it was second. Then sometimes they get it back and throw it in. It seems to me that this is equivalent to the throw in the stands rule, give the runners two bases and the ball is dead.
  #19  
Old 04-09-2018, 12:43 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
I have to question this. I always thought it was two bases beyond the base last possessed at the time the ball is thrown by the fielder, regardless of who it is.
Rule 5.06 (4) (G):

Quote:
Two bases, when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes or a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made;

APPROVED RULING: If all runners, including the batter-runner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #20  
Old 04-09-2018, 12:54 PM
Ponch8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
The pitcher Jon Lester of the Cubs has problems throwing to first base, both on batted balls hit back to him and on pickoff plays. He tends to freeze up and make inaccurate throws. I don't know if he has the same problems throwing to other bases; if so, it would probably be possible to do the "sneak" steal against him.
This just happened the other night. Ryan Braun stole second without a throw from Lester. Moments later, when he tried to steal third, Lester easily threw him out.

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/ryan-braun-...hs/c-271063110
  #21  
Old 04-09-2018, 01:00 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Yet again, Titletown
Posts: 22,849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch8 View Post
This just happened the other night. Ryan Braun stole second without a throw from Lester. Moments later, when he tried to steal third, Lester easily threw him out.
See post #13
  #22  
Old 04-09-2018, 01:22 PM
BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 21,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
Rule 5.06 (4) (G):
OK, apparently I was mistaken. Thank you for looking that up. But my question still stands: if a player mistakenly hands the ball or tosses it to a fan, is the ball dead at that moment? Seems like it should be, though I've seen clips of panicked players retrieving the ball from the fan and throwing it in play.
  #23  
Old 04-09-2018, 02:39 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
OK, apparently I was mistaken. Thank you for looking that up. But my question still stands: if a player mistakenly hands the ball or tosses it to a fan, is the ball dead at that moment? Seems like it should be, though I've seen clips of panicked players retrieving the ball from the fan and throwing it in play.
When a fielder hands or throws a ball to a fan, the umpires treat it just like an accidental throw. Even if the fielder gets the ball back, the ball is dead and the baserunners will advance two bases with no danger of being put out.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #24  
Old 04-09-2018, 02:50 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch8 View Post
This just happened the other night. Ryan Braun stole second without a throw from Lester. Moments later, when he tried to steal third, Lester easily threw him out.

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/ryan-braun-...hs/c-271063110
In this case, the successful stolen base wasn't even on a pitch or throw. Braun (the runner) noticed that Lester wasn't paying attention to him, and took off while Lester had the ball on the mound. Lester didn't even try to make a play.

On the second, unsuccessful steal attempt, Lester's throw to third wasn't very good (he bounced it), but it was in time to catch Braun. It's hard to catch someone napping twice in such a short period.

BTW, it looks to me like the first baseman didn't say anything to Lester until it was too late. Braun took a huge walking lead before he started running. Someone on the Cubs should have alerted Lester so he could make a throw to first. Even a poor throw would have gotten Braun.

Neither of these is quite the same as what we've been discussing, which is a steal on the catcher's throw back to the pitcher.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #25  
Old 04-13-2018, 01:44 PM
Hari Seldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Trantor
Posts: 12,968
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
Here's one I've wondered about for a while. The rules say that baserunners are supposed to return to their bases after an uncaught foul ball, and that the umpire-in-chief shouldn't put the ball back in play until this happens. It's common, though, for a new ball to be put in play without the runners retouching their bases. The rules don't specify a penalty for this, as far as I can tell. What would happen if, say, on a foul ball a runner on first base wandered over to within a foot of second and then stepped over and touched second as soon as the pitcher toed the rubber? Of course, this would be a big mistake on the part of the umpires, but how could they fix it? Would it be possible to tag the runner out at second even if he's touching the base (because he's not entitled to it)? Would an appeal play at first be possible? Would the umpires just call time out and order the runner to return to first?
The rule didn't always say that and one player tried it, standing with one foot over 2nd base. He said that no rule prevented that. The umpire said that no one was going to do that in any game he was in charge of. Guess who won. Then the rule was put in. But the umpires don't necessarily enforce it strictly if no one is trying any funny business. Baseball can be informal that way. Another example: if a runner is doubled off base on an infield line drive, say, that is technically an appeal play and the umpire should not call the out unless asked. But if the intent is clear and obvious, they do without any need to appeal. This also raises the possibility of a 4th out. Here is how that works. Suppose runners on first and third, one out. There is a double steal attempt. A liner is hit to second, who catches it and throws to first for the third out of the inning. But before it gets there, the runner from third has crossed the plate. The run should count. Except that if the defense realizes what has happened, they can throw to third and appeal for a fourth out. Which will be allowed. Incidentally, I didn't make this up; I read it in Bill James somewhere.
  #26  
Old 04-13-2018, 02:32 PM
DCnDC's Avatar
DCnDC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Dueling Grounds
Posts: 12,385
What if there's a popup and someone tosses a bunch of other balls into the air, Naked Gun style? I assume that would that be interference and an instant dead ball, instant out, followed by ejections and possible forfeit, depending on who interfered and how ornery the ump is that day?
  #27  
Old 04-14-2018, 12:41 AM
OldGuy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
The rule didn't always say that and one player tried it, standing with one foot over 2nd base. He said that no rule prevented that. The umpire said that no one was going to do that in any game he was in charge of. Guess who won. Then the rule was put in. But the umpires don't necessarily enforce it strictly if no one is trying any funny business. Baseball can be informal that way. Another example: if a runner is doubled off base on an infield line drive, say, that is technically an appeal play and the umpire should not call the out unless asked. But if the intent is clear and obvious, they do without any need to appeal. This also raises the possibility of a 4th out. Here is how that works. Suppose runners on first and third, one out. There is a double steal attempt. A liner is hit to second, who catches it and throws to first for the third out of the inning. But before it gets there, the runner from third has crossed the plate. The run should count. Except that if the defense realizes what has happened, they can throw to third and appeal for a fourth out. Which will be allowed. Incidentally, I didn't make this up; I read it in Bill James somewhere.

You can see a time it could have happened here.

https://www.mlb.com/indians/news/raj...in/c-186033050

Raj Davis made an incredible juggling catch of Cabrera's fly almost to the fence. With one out in the 9th, the runners on first and second had taken off. Raj threw it in and Lindor (it's normally the second baseman who takes relays from right center, but they had a shift on and I think Lindor took it) relayed it to the plate, but not in time to get the runner from second. They then threw to first doubling that runner off. Game over. Had they subsequently appealed at second, the "fourth out" would have replaced the third out and Cody Allen would not have been charged with an earned run.

The description on that page can't be quite right. If indeed Maybin took off from first, "believing Davis had dropped it", he should not have been called out. When tagging up, you may run as soon as the ball is touched no matter how long it takes the fielder to secure the ball. I assume they meant to say Maybin went half way and didn't tag up. I don't know whether Kinsler tagged up at second or not. I suspect not as that would be quite a sprint to beat the trow all the way home, though some players have indeed scored from second on sacrifice flies, and this one with the depth of the fly and the juggling, would have been a good one to try on.

Last edited by OldGuy; 04-14-2018 at 12:46 AM.
  #28  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:48 AM
newme is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Woods
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post
You can see a time it could have happened here.

https://www.mlb.com/indians/news/raj...in/c-186033050

Raj Davis made an incredible juggling catch of Cabrera's fly almost to the fence. With one out in the 9th, the runners on first and second had taken off. Raj threw it in and Lindor (it's normally the second baseman who takes relays from right center, but they had a shift on and I think Lindor took it) relayed it to the plate, but not in time to get the runner from second. They then threw to first doubling that runner off. Game over. Had they subsequently appealed at second, the "fourth out" would have replaced the third out and Cody Allen would not have been charged with an earned run.
Apparently no run was scored on that final play. The score is 7-4 when the last batter comes to the plate, and the final score is also 7-4. Is there a way to look up the official scorecard?
  #29  
Old 04-14-2018, 11:17 AM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by newme View Post
Apparently no run was scored on that final play. The score is 7-4 when the last batter comes to the plate, and the final score is also 7-4. Is there a way to look up the official scorecard?
I found the box score here. The final score was 7-5, not 7-4. OldGuy is right that they could have erased the fifth run by appealing at second, but the only point to it would have been to lower Allen's ERA. The extra run made no difference in the outcome of the game.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #30  
Old 04-14-2018, 02:00 PM
OldGuy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
I found the box score here. The final score was 7-5, not 7-4. OldGuy is right that they could have erased the fifth run by appealing at second, but the only point to it would have been to lower Allen's ERA. The extra run made no difference in the outcome of the game.
My recollection, is the final score was reported as 7-4 even the next day in the papers as many people thing of those appeals as a force play (they're treated as one as the baseman usually doesn't actually appeal like they do on a missed base) so the run would not count. They did change it though. I recall watching the game and yelling at the TV for them to appeal at second, but they didn't listen.

I recall another game a few years earlier when (I believe) a runner from third tagged and scored while a runner on first was running. He was doubled off, but not until after the runner from third had crossed the plate. The scoreboard didn't show the run. A few innings later the umpires informed the teams the run counted. I always wondered if that was grounds for appeal as the extra run could have changed strategies.
  #31  
Old 04-14-2018, 02:06 PM
OldGuy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCnDC View Post
What if there's a popup and someone tosses a bunch of other balls into the air, Naked Gun style? I assume that would that be interference and an instant dead ball, instant out, followed by ejections and possible forfeit, depending on who interfered and how ornery the ump is that day?
There was a play something like this in 1959 (?). Braves at bat vs I don't recall. Batter checked his swing ball sailed past everyone to the backstop. Catcher said foul tip, ump said no, but he did put a new ball into the cather's hand. Catcher threw to second trying to get the runner advancing from first and threw it into center field. Meanwhile the third (or possibly first) baseman had run and collected the original ball.

Runner saw the ball go into center so he took off for third only to be tagged out with the original ball held by the shortstop (I believe). Ump ruled him out. That seemed like a travesty to me. Fairest thing would have been to allow him to stay on second. Second fairest call the ball dead and return him to first.
  #32  
Old 04-14-2018, 02:19 PM
OldGuy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,418
I mis-remembered this, but got the gist right.

It was the Cards not the Braves. Stan Musial walked and continued on to second then he saw the ball not picked up.

https://books.google.com/books?id=BK...seball&f=false

For those interested in strange plays there are a lot in that book.
  #33  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:35 PM
robardin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Flushing, NY
Posts: 4,766
I have continued to take my son to baseball games, and he has continued with his teenaged angles thereof.

I recently had this conversation with him, now 15 years old, at Citi Field a few weekends ago, home of the NY Mets.

Quote:
"If a ball hits a bird in flight in fair territory, drops down and a fielder catches it, is that an out?"

"Yes. A batted ball that has hit a bird remains in play; if caught, it's an out, if not, it's a hit. It actually happened to a Mets outfielder, Kevin McReynolds, in the '80s. He was tracking to catch a fly ball when it hit a bird and both just fell from the sky. The runner ended up getting a double."

"So what if instead of falling to the field, it deflected out of the field fair, over the wall. Would it be a home run?"

"I suppose so. I mean, it'd be like a combo of that play, and the Jose Canseco Dome Run. [If you don't know what that means... GO SEARCH IT ON YOUTUBE NOW. --ed.] As long as a live ball in play goes over the wall, it's a home run."

"So what if I got a falcon trained to go after a baseball in flight and bring it to me, and then sat in the outfield seats?"

"Ballpark security will not let you enter with a falcon on your arm."

"No, but maybe I could train it to sit on a flagpole, and go after the ball on cue. And I waited for when the Mets needed a walkoff home run to win."

"It'd be pretty suspicious when the falcon brings you the home run ball."

"OK, so I train it to fly out of the ballpark into the parking lot."

"You seem to have given this a lot of thought."

"Not really."
This is the same kid who, when he was turning 4 years old, wanted to have a Mets themed birthday party, because his Dear Old Dad loved watching the Mets all the time, and dressed him up in little Mets outfits. Like, Mets balloons and decorations and cake and all that. He brought this up about a week before.

The date of this party was scheduled on Sunday, September 30th, 2007, the final game of the Mets season that year. Yes, THAT year.

Not wanting to ruin his birthday if the Mets fell into the sinkhole that the bullpen was rapidly digging for them, I deflected him to choosing a Spider-Man party theme instead.

As we set up for the party, I listened to the game via an earphone to a portable AM radio. The baseball game began at 1:10pm, and was basically over by 1:20pm as Tom Glavine quickly gave up 7 runs to the last place Marlins. I put away the radio and proceeded to conduct his birthday party with the TV off and as if the Mets did not exist. I did check the score every 20 minutes or so to see if the Mets might be mounting a comeback, but no. Meanwhile, the Phillies won their final game and overtook the Mets by one game to win the division, precluding the Mets from the 2007 playoffs (yea, unto 2015 were they banished).

I mentioned this to him recently, and guess what? He says I jinxed the Mets with my lack of faith.

"You basically admitted it could happen. Which means, in some sense, you MADE it happen."

"WHAT? Seriously? You're gonna try to lay that collapse on ME?"

"Just saying. You didn't believe. You didn't even let a child believe. You lost them the belief of a CHILD. Isn't that, like, the most powerful magic there is?"

Well, guess what? His birthday this year is once again, the last game of the 2019 season. A season where the once-dead Mets are now fighting to make a to-the--finishing-line surge for a playoff berth.

If the Mets are in a win-and-in, lose-and-snooze scenario again on a final game that is on his birthday, I am going to force him to have a Mets themed birthday party. Balloons, decorations, and orange and blue ice cream cake - the whole 60 feet, 6 inches. I don't care if he's turning sixteen!
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:06 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017