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Old 11-25-2016, 11:37 PM
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1832/whats-the-verdict-on-the-loch-ness-monster


Some people believe in it, and some do not.
Some accept the "evidence" and some do not
Some attempt to explain away the "evidence" and point out inconsistencies

You could make the same three observations about the existence of human-created global warming.

Unlike the inference from E=MC2 that we could make a bomb, the existence of the Loch Ness monster (or global warming) is not amenable to being scientifically tested under controlled conditions to yield a definitive result.

The existence or otherwise of Nessie has no impact on the world, so people can believe whatever they like, whatever makes them feel most comfortable.

(It's a shame we can't say the same about human-created global warming - look at the billions being spent by countries closing down coal-fired power stations and buying wind-farms; based on no solid evidence that there is a need to do so. )
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Old 11-25-2016, 11:44 PM
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Old 11-26-2016, 12:04 AM
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1832?
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Old 11-26-2016, 12:08 AM
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There is zero evidence for the Loch Ness monster. The evidence for human-induced global warming is overwhelming. The OP is comparing apples and oranges.
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Old 11-26-2016, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by HenryG View Post
Some people believe in it, and some do not.
Some accept the "evidence" and some do not
Some attempt to explain away the "evidence" and point out inconsistencies

You could make the same three observations about the existence of human-created global warming.
You have loaded this observation with the unstated assumption that the existence of opposing beliefs and opinions necessarily implies uncertainty. The assumption is wrong. It's similar to the "false balance" fallacy of journalism. Many people are idiots, and some opinions are simply wrong. You have the right to hold any belief you choose, but that belief doesn't merit any respect unless it's supported by evidence.
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Old 11-26-2016, 02:43 AM
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I really wish people would post links in the first two or three responses, especially those who have been here five years or longer. Is this it?

What's the verdict on the Loch Ness Monster?

And if I can do it on a phone, it shouldn't take six posts.

Last edited by cochrane; 11-26-2016 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 11-26-2016, 03:20 AM
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I don't think this thread is really about the Loch Ness Monster.
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Old 11-26-2016, 10:34 AM
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There's no possible way to prove the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist ... this is pseudo-science ...

However, it actually really easy to prove Global Warming isn't happening ... just measure the temperatures over 100 years ... and here's the results ... this is real science !!!
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Old 11-26-2016, 02:53 PM
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What if global warming causes Loch Ness to evaporate?
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Old 11-26-2016, 03:35 PM
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1832?
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1832/whats-the-verdict-on-the-loch-ness-monster
  #11  
Old 11-26-2016, 04:55 PM
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Have "sightings" gone up or down since the ubiquity of mobile phones with cameras?
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Old 11-26-2016, 05:07 PM
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Have "sightings" gone up or down since the ubiquity of mobile phones with cameras?
Randall Munroe calls it settled.

A few weeks ago in the far Canadian Arctic temps were 40 degrees F above normal. The ice coverage in the Arctic started to go down. In October. When ice normally increases fastest.
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Old 11-26-2016, 07:13 PM
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Randall Munroe calls it settled.
But this tells us nothing about vampires, which do seem to be proliferating, especially the sexy ones.

This is a really clever prank, using a fake mirror and two identical actors in a restroom to trick people into thinking they have no reflection:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xdohwXJ4O0

Last edited by Riemann; 11-26-2016 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 11-26-2016, 09:14 PM
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The following is shtick


The Loch Ness monster DID exist. Then, a critical mass of people stopped believing. This caused Nessie and all evidence of Nessie to vanish. If, one day, enough people believed in Nessie he would return.
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Old 11-28-2016, 03:47 AM
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However, it actually really easy to prove Global Warming isn't happening ... just measure the temperatures over 100 years ... and here's the results ... this is real science !!!

FTG
A few weeks ago in the far Canadian Arctic temps were 40 degrees F above normal. The ice coverage in the Arctic started to go down. In October. When ice normally increases fastest.
Folks, you are missing the point. The issue is not whether or not global warming exists. The issue is that there is no way of telling whether global warming (if any) is due to humans or due to non-human phenomena. We cannot tell because we cannot set up an experiment to tests it.

For Nessie, the same analogy applies. We cannot set up an experiment, to be run under controlled conditions, to determine the monster's existence. We can look, but if we find nothing we will not be able to decide whether that result is due to poor searching or because there is nothing to find. As I said, believe what you want to believe.
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Old 11-28-2016, 04:50 AM
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WATCHWOLF49
However, it actually really easy to prove Global Warming isn't happening ... just measure the temperatures over 100 years ... and here's the results ... this is real science !!!

FTG
A few weeks ago in the far Canadian Arctic temps were 40 degrees F above normal. The ice coverage in the Arctic started to go down. In October. When ice normally increases fastest.
Folks, you are missing the point. The issue is not whether or not global warming exists. The issue is that there is no way of telling whether global warming (if any) is due to humans or due to non-human phenomena. We cannot tell because we cannot set up an experiment to tests it.
We not only can, we have.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming...l#.WDwEFXonPFI
Here’s how scientists know. The same elements (i.e. same number of protons in the nucleus) with different mass numbers (arising from the different numbers of neutrons in the nucleus) are called isotopes. Each carbon molecule has six protons in the nucleus, but there are many different isotopes with varying numbers of neutrons in the nucleus.[10] Carbon isotopes from different sources are “lighter” (high negative value) or heavier (lower negative value). For example, carbon from ocean is the standard with a value of “0” while carbon from fossil fuels ranges from -20 to -32.[11] While atmospheric carbon has an average value of -5 to -9, it is becoming “lighter” over time as carbon from fossil fuels become more abundant in the atmosphere (Figure 1).[9,11,12]
And of course, we can create models of what things would look like given what we know about CO2 (which you seem to accept) and see how these models react given what we know about natural sources. The article goes into detail, but the fact is that we have the smoking gun - we know how much of the CO2 in the atmosphere is anthropogenic.

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For Nessie, the same analogy applies. We cannot set up an experiment, to be run under controlled conditions, to determine the monster's existence. We can look, but if we find nothing we will not be able to decide whether that result is due to poor searching or because there is nothing to find. As I said, believe what you want to believe.
This is a completely different issue, though. Trying to prove a negative. Which we could do, it would be as simple as scanning the lake, unless you want to propose that this creature for which there is no convincing evidence of its existence not only exists but can hide from sonar. But we don't have to. Barring convincing evidence of Nessie's existence, there is no reason to believe in it.
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Old 11-28-2016, 05:13 AM
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Folks, you are missing the point. The issue is not whether or not global warming exists. The issue is that there is no way of telling whether global warming (if any) is due to humans or due to non-human phenomena. We cannot tell because we cannot set up an experiment to tests it....
For the compelling evidence that the warming is anthropogenic, see here:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming...to-gw-faq.html

Experiments are important in science, but the controlled experiment is not the only means of scientific enquiry. To give a couple of examples:

In astronomy, we know a lot about the composition and properties of stars and galaxies from spectroscopy. Spectrographic analysis of a star is not an experiment, but the underlying method has been validated by many experiments on earth, and the only assumption is that the laws of nature are the same throughout the universe.

In evolutionary biology, our knowledge of the common ancestry of all life on earth. We cannot set up planetary-scale experiments to re-run evolution over billions of years, so our evidence here is not experimental. It comes principally from molecular phylogenetics (the relationships between the DNA sequences in the genomes of different species) and from the evidence that all of life shares many genes and characteristics such as basic metabolic processes.
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Old 11-28-2016, 05:24 AM
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For Nessie... if we find nothing we will not be able to decide whether that result is due to poor searching or because there is nothing to find....
The aphorism that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is cute, but it is complete nonsense.

Given a hypothesis, if we find no evidence when the hypothesis predicts that we should see evidence, then this is evidence that the hypothesis is wrong. Of course, our dismissal of the hypothesis is always strictly provisional, but all of scientific knowledge is provisional. The confidence with which we would dismiss the hypothesis is a function of the strength of the prediction that we should see evidence.
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Old 11-28-2016, 12:03 PM
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Loch Ness Monster Impossible - Geology


Plate tectonics has caused our landmass to change slowly but surely. Geologists have plenty of evidence of what the planets surface looked like in the past, and Lock Ness, the body of water, is relatively new and was slowly filled with melt water after the gouge in the earth was created by an uplift. Hard to make an argument that some prehistoric creature could make it's way into the land locked Lock from an older body of water that was around more then 50,000 years ago.
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Old 11-28-2016, 12:48 PM
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I can't resist sharing something from 1978.

I was a machinist's helper at a university's shop in Chicago. One of the researchers associated with the university came in and discussed a special project with my shop's machinist and me. He wanted to develop a cheap, simple "biopsy harpoon" to use on his upcoming expedition to Loch Ness. He was perfectly serious and had several ideas for construction, materials, and so forth. The machinist and I just sort of looked at each other behind his back. Everything else he had asked us to work on prior to that point had been very practical and related to laboratory work.

So...we manufactured quite a few prototypes. A major problem was that we had no idea what the hide or skin of Nessie would be like. Like a whale? Dolphin? Alligator? Hippo? Plus, how was this harpoon going to be launched? By hand, like old-time whalers? By compressed air? Harpoon gun, using a blank shell? (According to the researcher, he would not be allowed to use a firearm to launch the harpoon, but a crossbow might be acceptable.)

Were any of them ever used? Don't know. Never saw any news about him. But I still have one of the prototypes. It's quite amusing to see people's reactions to being told that tubular thing over there is a Nessie harpoon.
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Old 11-28-2016, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryG View Post
WATCHWOLF49
However, it actually really easy to prove Global Warming isn't happening ... just measure the temperatures over 100 years ... and here's the results ... this is real science !!!

FTG
A few weeks ago in the far Canadian Arctic temps were 40 degrees F above normal. The ice coverage in the Arctic started to go down. In October. When ice normally increases fastest.
Folks, you are missing the point. The issue is not whether or not global warming exists. The issue is that there is no way of telling whether global warming (if any) is due to humans or due to non-human phenomena. We cannot tell because we cannot set up an experiment to tests it.

For Nessie, the same analogy applies. We cannot set up an experiment, to be run under controlled conditions, to determine the monster's existence. We can look, but if we find nothing we will not be able to decide whether that result is due to poor searching or because there is nothing to find. As I said, believe what you want to believe.
"Keep looking until you find it!" isn't science-it's wishful thinking.
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Old 11-28-2016, 03:52 PM
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Here's an interesting breakdown of the LNM.

King Kong as a catalyst is an interesting angle to take. Though it kinda interesting that Avatar didn't spawn a whole new bestiary of cryptids--testament how inconsequential it is as a cultural touchstone, methinks.
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Old 11-28-2016, 11:57 PM
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The OP should not was authoritative on subjects he seems to know nothing about.
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Old 11-29-2016, 08:02 AM
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We cannot tell because we cannot set up an experiment to tests it.
This is a fundamental failure to understand the basics of Science.

Take the Earth being round. (I hope, hope, hope you're not a Flat Earther as well.)

Why is it round? Due to the enormous pressure of gravity. But can we do an experiment to prove this? That is, can we assemble a planet size mass and see if becomes round over time? Of course not!

What do we have instead: data, calculations, etc. Exactly like with human caused global climate change!

I have no idea why people with such an deep lack of basic knowledge about something question the results produced by experts.
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Old 11-29-2016, 11:40 AM
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I've often wondered if it was a big hoax by the locals made in order to bring in tourist money.
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:13 PM
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I've often wondered if it was a big hoax by the locals made in order to bring in tourist money.
Yep, I've seen the promotion materials - "Tired of freezing Titan? Come visit Earth, it's nothing but warmth, warmth, warmth, all Earth-year long. Earth - we've got nowhere to go but up!"
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:13 PM
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I've often wondered if it was a big hoax by the locals made in order to bring in tourist money.
Such a thing has been done. IIRC It was the Silver Lake Serpent.
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Old 09-09-2019, 12:39 PM
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Updating this thread depressing news:
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The Loch Ness monster could be a giant eel, according to a fishy new theory that will keep Highland tourists guessing.

In one of the biggest DNA studies of its kind, a team of scientists from New Zealand’s Otago University found the presence of about 3,000 species in the deep murky waters of the Scottish loch.

Most of the creatures were very small, and while they did detect DNA from pigs, deer, sticklebacks and humans, there were no monsters. But Prof Neil Gemmell, who led the study, said he couldn’t rule out a theory that eels in the loch have grown to an extreme size.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...say-scientists
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:14 PM
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You could make the same three observations about the existence of human-created global warming.
No, not until you take away the "air quotes" from the word "evidence". There is scientific evidence that clearly shows that humans are pouring greenhouse gases into the atmosphere at an alarming rate. We know exactly what carbon dioxide and, even worse, methane do from laboratory experiments. We can clearly measure how much CO2 is being belched into the atmosphere. We clearly see evidence of the warming earth releasing pockets of what used to be frozen methane into the atmosphere.

It's not AT ALL like the Loch Ness myth.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:50 PM
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Updating this thread depressing news:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...say-scientists
I don't see that as depressing -- those motherfuckers are HUGE.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:58 PM
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I don't see that as depressing -- those motherfuckers are HUGE.
But are they screaming eels?
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:31 PM
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And is your hovercraft full of them?
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Old 09-09-2019, 03:49 PM
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Just as a heads-up, this thread was started 3 years ago, and the OP has not been active for more than a year.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:05 AM
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The OP should not was authoritative on subjects he seems to know nothing about.
WAS (not was)

Apologies for the earworm!
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:15 AM
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Updating this thread depressing news:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...say-scientists
Interesting... no mention of catfish or sturgeon DNA which I assumed were the prevailing theories these days.
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