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  #151  
Old 09-01-2019, 06:28 PM
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Worcestershire Sauce is apparently the hip e-flavour all the kids are into.

Now if only broccoli liquid extract could get somehow worked into e-juice.
  #152  
Old 09-02-2019, 12:35 PM
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"...studies have repeatedly shown that young people use e-cigarettes because of the flavors. If flavors didn’t exist, they say they wouldn’t vape.

Many of the more than 15,000 unique e-cigarette flavors have silly names, such as Honey Doo Doo, Booger Sugar and Barney Pebbles. Names that aren’t exactly aimed at an adult audience. Kids are also attracted to the mint and menthol flavors, long thought to be the purview of adults."


https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/1...ling-epidemic/
  #153  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
"...studies have repeatedly shown that young people use e-cigarettes because of the flavors. If flavors didn’t exist, they say they wouldn’t vape.

Many of the more than 15,000 unique e-cigarette flavors have silly names, such as Honey Doo Doo, Booger Sugar and Barney Pebbles. Names that aren’t exactly aimed at an adult audience. Kids are also attracted to the mint and menthol flavors, long thought to be the purview of adults."


https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/1...ling-epidemic/
Cannabis also has similar silly names.
  #154  
Old 09-02-2019, 05:01 PM
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"...studies have repeatedly shown that young people use e-cigarettes because of the flavors. If flavors didn’t exist, they say they wouldn’t vape.

Many of the more than 15,000 unique e-cigarette flavors have silly names, such as Honey Doo Doo, Booger Sugar and Barney Pebbles. Names that aren’t exactly aimed at an adult audience. Kids are also attracted to the mint and menthol flavors, long thought to be the purview of adults."


https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/1...ling-epidemic/
So why not just ban Juul? Or convenience store sales of tobacco products? Why is nicotine the one product that requires a flavor ban?
  #155  
Old 09-02-2019, 09:10 PM
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Cannabis also has similar silly names.
Really???

Rest
God
God's Gift
God's Treat
Bio-Jesus
Critical Mass
Cat Piss
Floppy Donged Gorilla
Hippie Crippler (actually that one's not too bad)
Afghooey
Connie Chung
Romulan
Girl Scout Cookies
Rockstar Master Kush


...ok maybe one or two dumb ones.
  #156  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:23 PM
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Michigan becomes first state to ban flavored e-cigarettes (WaPo article)
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Michigan on Wednesday became the first state in the nation to ban flavored e-cigarettes, a step the governor said was needed to protect young people from the potentially harmful effects of vaping.

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) said in an interview Tuesday that she ordered the ban after the state health department found youth vaping constituted a public health emergency. The action was officially announced Wednesday.

. . . Besides sweet flavors, the prohibition will also apply to vaping products that use mint and menthol flavors. It does not cover tobacco-flavored e-cigarettes, the governor’s aides said.

The ban, which covers both retail and online sales, will go into effect as soon as the health department issues rules, sometime in the next 30 days. It will last for six months, and can be renewed for another six months, according to the governor’s aides. In the meantime, they said, the health department will develop permanent regulations banning flavored e-cigarettes. The legislature could try to block those rules, but would face a veto, they added.

Whitmer also barred what she called misleading descriptions of vapor products as “clear,” “safe” and “healthy” and ordered the enforcement of an existing ban on billboard advertising for e-cigarettes.

While Michigan is the first state to prohibit sales of flavored e-cigarettes, several cities and communities have moved to restrict or ban sales of e-cigarettes. In late June, San Francisco became the first major city in the United States to ban the sale and distribution of all e-cigarettes; the ban goes into effect early next year.
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On Wednesday, vaping advocates denounced the Michigan ban as misguided and predicted it would lead to a massive black market for the banned products.

“This shameless attempt at backdoor prohibition will close down several hundred Michigan small businesses and could send tens of thousands of ex-smokers back to deadly combustible cigarettes,” Greg Conley, president of the American Vaping Association, a consumer group, said in a statement.

“These businesses and their customers will not go down without a fight,” he added. “We look forward to supporting the lawsuits that now appear necessary to protect the right of adults to access these harm reduction products.”

While many vaping advocates concede the long-term effects of e-cigarettes are not known, they say vaping is almost certainly safer than traditional smoking, which causes the deaths of more than 480,000 people a year in the United States.
  #157  
Old 09-04-2019, 05:34 PM
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We actually do something *not* clearly an unmitigatedly awful thing! Yay for MI! (Oh yeah, electing Whitmer would also count there too)

Last edited by Ambivalid; 09-04-2019 at 05:36 PM.
  #158  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:14 PM
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A second possible vaping-related death is under investigation in Oregon

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Health officials in Oregon are investigating the recent death of a person who had severe respiratory illness after vaping. If confirmed, it would be the second such death reported in the country.
. . .

The Oregon Health Authority reports the individual had used a vaping device purchased from a cannabis dispensary before becoming ill. The death occurred in July.
Summit County [OH] Public Health Urges Residents to Stop Using Vaping Products

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Summit County Public Health (SCPH) is urging residents to stop using any vape and/or e-cigarette devices immediately. Individuals from Ohio have been hospitalized with severe pulmonary illness. These individuals reported using vape products or dabbing (vaping marijuana oils, extracts, or concentrates) prior to hospitalization. However, at this time, the specifics of the products are unknown. Residents are strongly encouraged to not utilize any vaping products, especially those that contain tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) or cannabidiol (CBD).

Vaping and e-cigarette products of any kind contain cancer-causing chemicals, heavy metals such as nickel, tin, and lead, and chemical flavorings linked to serious lung disease. The long-term health impacts for using these products are unknown but the immediate dangers of vaping are becoming increasingly evident and alarming in Ohio and across the nation.
CDC warns against vaping after mysterious spike in lung illnesses

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The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) issued an advisory that "includes the recommendation that while this investigation is ongoing, if you are concerned about these specific health risks, consider refraining from the use of e-cigarette products" following the spike in illnesses.

The advisory, which was issued this past Friday, notes that as of Aug. 27, there were 215 possible cases from 25 states of lung disease which may be tied to vaping.
  #159  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:17 AM
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So a bunch of people got sick vaping contraband THC vape cartridges. Sounds like a perfect reason to ban Tooty Fruity nicotine vape juice.
  #160  
Old 09-06-2019, 06:14 PM
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Get your facts straight if you want to contribute to this debate. You are conflating to different points.
Jurisdictions are seeking to ban "Tooty Fruity nicotine vape juice" and suing the manufacturers and distributors because they appeal to and were being subtly marketed to underaged users.
The current spate of vape related illnesses seems to be (and the investigation is far from over) related to additives in some vape products; both "legitimate" and black market varieties.

mc

Last edited by mikecurtis; 09-06-2019 at 06:15 PM.
  #161  
Old 09-06-2019, 09:28 PM
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New study suggests the solvents used in vaping can cause serious damage to lung tissue, even without nicotine. It's the vaping itself that may be the problem, not the drugs.

"Vaping causes 'havoc' with lungs, study with mice finds"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/e-cig...mage-1.5270986
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  #162  
Old 09-07-2019, 05:03 AM
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Vaping has been around for awhile now, which leads to the question why the sudden appearance of lung disease now?

Of course, it may only appear sudden, there could have been diagnosed cases for some time now.

It could be that the damage builds over time and there is only now a pool of people who have been vaping long enough to show damage.

It might be that even though vaping is statistically less dangerous/damaging the damage occurs over a much shorter time period (months or a few years) than with tobacco (decades) so the link is more apparent.

Or maybe other things, which is why it is still being researched.
  #163  
Old 09-07-2019, 08:55 AM
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So a bunch of people got sick vaping contraband THC vape cartridges. Sounds like a perfect reason to ban Tooty Fruity nicotine vape juice.
"Many, though not all, of the patients who have fallen ill had used cannabis-derived vaping products, and some had also used nicotine-containing products. A smaller group reported using nicotine only."

http://npr.org/sections/health-shots...ss-has-doubled
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Originally Posted by Broomstick
Vaping has been around for awhile now, which leads to the question why the sudden appearance of lung disease now?

Of course, it may only appear sudden, there could have been diagnosed cases for some time now.
Another concern: while acute or subacute lung injury from vaping constituents has been found, there's also a serious concern about slowly developing long-term effects that might manifest many years down the line.

My advice to aspiring pathologists: do a fellowship in pulmonary pathology. Your expertise will come in handy later on (those considering a career as pulmonologists should also take heart - while your business model will take a hit as smoking continues to decline, you'll probably be able to make up some of the difference on vaping-related chronic lung disease.
  #164  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:15 AM
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, you'll probably be able to make up some of the difference on vaping-related chronic lung disease.
What a bold prediction.
  #165  
Old 09-08-2019, 01:33 PM
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It's not just a river in Egypt.

Oh, and not that they need another source of income, but personal injury lawyers could have a bonanza in coming years from class action suits and other actions.

I'm surprised I haven't yet seen TV ads from law firms soliciting vape clients over lung injuries. So far they've concentrated on suing over addiction and vaping device explosions/burn injuries.

Regardless, the price of vaping supplies will reflect the cost of paying settlements. And nicotine addicts will be in no position to complain.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 09-08-2019 at 01:35 PM.
  #166  
Old 09-08-2019, 02:41 PM
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The notion, that some seem to have, that inhaling anything but air* isn't almost certainly gonna have long term deleterious boggles my mind.
(*With the exception, maybe, of therapeutic drugs.)

CMC fnord!
  #167  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:36 PM
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The notion, that some seem to have, that inhaling anything but air* isn't almost certainly gonna have long term deleterious boggles my mind.
(*With the exception, maybe, of therapeutic drugs.)

CMC fnord!
When was the last day you breathed nothing but air, do you think? I have no doubt that there is some health effects from vaping and I really don't understand why anyone would think otherwise. What I don't see is that it's worse than smoking, alcohol or a liter of Pepsi a day.
  #168  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:43 PM
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I'm surprised I haven't yet seen TV ads from law firms soliciting vape clients over lung injuries. So far they've concentrated on suing over addiction and vaping device explosions/burn injuries.
.
I'm not surprised you're surprised but lawyers like a little more than chicken little hypothetical predictions before launching class action suits.
  #169  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:51 PM
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We could also decide that other activities far less harmful than smoking should be minimally or not at all regulated.

Why inflict workplace safety regulations on private industry, when the number of workers killed each year in the U.S. is less than one-hundredth the death toll from smoking? Those regulations are job killers!
Only a tiny number of people are harmed every year by accidents on amusement park rides. Stop regulating them too. Contaminated foods, adulterated supplement pills, Ikea dressers - we could go on and on. They're all way less harmful than smoking, and regulating them results in increased costs and inconvenience for consumers.

Or maybe we can craft reasonable rules in each instance to protect the public without giving in to special pleading.

Well said! Also worth noting: while current commercialized vape systems appear safer than cigarettes, the industry is unregulated and will undoubtedly make 'innovations' to make vaping more appealing/ addictive/ lucrative. Those 'improvrments' will only be tested in the real world. You are the assay animal in the toxicity test. Sound like a good thing? Maybe not...
  #170  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:16 PM
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I'm not surprised you're surprised but lawyers like a little more than chicken little hypothetical predictions before launching class action suits.
Beyond the fact that vaping-associated lung injuries are not "hypothetical" any longer, it turns out that law firms are already soliciting clients who say they've been harmed in this manner.

Looks like the "Happy Time"* might be coming to an end for the vaping industry. Regulatory and legal costs will be going up and undoubtedly be passed on to consumers.

*a term used by German U-boat crews to describe their early successes in WWII.
  #171  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:51 AM
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Well, I don't use juul, so we'll see how big an impact those lawsuits have on the wider industry.

Last edited by CarnalK; 09-10-2019 at 12:51 AM.
  #172  
Old 09-10-2019, 11:19 PM
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posted this in the MPSIMS thread. . .


There has just been another vape related death reported, bringing the current total to 6, and there are 450 cases in 33 different states that are being investigated.
So far there is no one thing linking all the cases together.
The NY State Health Dept has listed Vitamin E acetate as a likely culprit in most of the cases but cannot confirm a link to all the cases they are studying.
The CDC has not said anything yet about a possible cause. Their latest post is from 3 days ago

Quote:
CDC, FDA, state and local health departments, and other clinical and public health partners are investigating a multistate outbreak of pulmonary disease associated with e-cigarette product (devices, liquids, refill pods, and/or cartridges) use. This ongoing investigation seeks to identify the exposures, demographic, clinical, and laboratory features and behaviors of patients. All patients have reported e-cigarette product use. Some patients have reported using e-cigarettes containing cannabinoid products, such as THC. To date, the investigation has not identified any single substance or e-cigarette product that has been consistently associated with illness.

State health departments are working with FDA to enable collection of e-cigarette product specimens for testing at the U.S. FDA Forensic Chemistry Center.
Even tho this is getting alot of media attention right now, it could very well be that these illnesses have been happening all along and it is just now that TPTB are making the connection. The American Lung Association has been sounding the alarm for about 10 yrs now and in Jan 2018 the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine released a consensus study report that reviewed over 800 different studies that includes these findings
  • A study from the University of North Carolina found that the two primary ingredients found in e-cigarettes—propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin—are toxic to cells and that the more ingredients in an e-liquid, the greater the toxicity.
  • E-cigarettes produce a number of dangerous chemicals including acetaldehyde, acrolein, and formaldehyde. These aldehydes can cause lung disease, as well as cardiovascular (heart) disease.
  • E-cigarettes also contain acrolein, a herbicide primarily used to kill weeds. It can cause acute lung injury and COPD and may cause asthma and lung cancer.
  • Both the U.S. Surgeon General and the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine have warned about the risks of inhaling secondhand e-cigarette emissions, which are created when an e-cigarette user exhales the chemical cocktail created by e-cigarettes.
  • In 2016, the Surgeon General concluded that secondhand emissions contain, "nicotine; ultrafine particles; flavorings such as diacetyl, a chemical linked to serious lung disease; volatile organic compounds such as benzene, which is found in car exhaust; and heavy metals, such as nickel, tin, and lead."
  • The Food and Drug Administration has not found any e-cigarette to be safe and effective in helping smokers quit. If smokers are ready to quit smoking for good, they should call 1-800-QUIT NOW or talk with their doctor about finding the best way to quit using proven methods and FDA-approved treatments and counseling.
  #173  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:29 PM
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Zoinks this thread did not age well.
  #174  
Old 09-11-2019, 02:26 PM
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And now Trump wants to ban flavored vapes. Didn't Republicans once decry "nanny state" regulation?
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Last edited by Akaj; 09-11-2019 at 02:26 PM.
  #175  
Old 09-11-2019, 04:48 PM
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Didn't Republicans once decry "nanny state" regulation?
Republicans have all been run thru the Trumpmogrifier, so they bear little resemblance to the actual Republicans of any previous era.

The story so far:
a) It's not clear that vaping is an effective way to wean off nicotine, or even tobacco.
b) Unexplained acute respiratory debility and deaths are occurring, credibly attributed to vaping, in fairly significant numbers.

So the core assertion of this thread, that Vaping Saves Lives has not been reasonably established.

I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support.

Last edited by Qadgop the Mercotan; 09-11-2019 at 04:49 PM.
  #176  
Old 09-11-2019, 04:50 PM
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Shit, if three deaths is all it took, wait until I tell these guys about guns.
  #177  
Old 09-11-2019, 05:13 PM
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I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support.
Those aren't particularly useful either though, are they?
  #178  
Old 09-11-2019, 05:23 PM
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Shit, if three deaths is all it took, wait until I tell these guys about guns.
Tobacco kills 500000 americans a year, 50000 by second hand smoke. They know.
  #179  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:44 PM
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I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support.
Those aren't particularly useful either though, are they?
Yes and no.

Truth is, there are NO highly effective methods for getting off any form of addiction. The success rate, even for the most effective methods, is under 20% per attempt. Which is why addicts typically need multiple attempts to quit before they finally do so for good, and why relapses are so common.

Nictoine gum and patches are, at present, two of the more effective means to end a tobacco addiction. Their success rate, per attempt, is still under 20%. There are other methods that are even worse than that.

Treating addiction is hard. There are no quick and easy fixes.
  #180  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:57 PM
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Yes and no.

Truth is, there are NO highly effective methods for getting off any form of addiction. The success rate, even for the most effective methods, is under 20% per attempt. Which is why addicts typically need multiple attempts to quit before they finally do so for good, and why relapses are so common.

Nictoine gum and patches are, at present, two of the more effective means to end a tobacco addiction. Their success rate, per attempt, is still under 20%. There are other methods that are even worse than that.

Treating addiction is hard. There are no quick and easy fixes.
This is true, which is why if vaping does work for a particular smoker, then I support it.
  #181  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:04 PM
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I will say that getting a new generation hooked on nicotine, then banning the most preferred delivery systems (flavored vapes), was a master stroke by the cigarette and blunt industries.

Last edited by JohnT; 09-11-2019 at 07:05 PM.
  #182  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:11 PM
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Yes and no.

Truth is, there are NO highly effective methods for getting off any form of addiction. The success rate, even for the most effective methods, is under 20% per attempt. Which is why addicts typically need multiple attempts to quit before they finally do so for good, and why relapses are so common.

Nictoine gum and patches are, at present, two of the more effective means to end a tobacco addiction. Their success rate, per attempt, is still under 20%. There are other methods that are even worse than that.

Treating addiction is hard. There are no quick and easy fixes.
Well, I personally immediately stopped cigarettes with vaping. I know it's not harmless and that I'm still addicted to nicotine but I feel a lot better and I'm pretty confident I've lowered some long term risks.
  #183  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:37 PM
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Zoinks this thread did not age well.
Smoking will do that. Vaping - who knows?
  #184  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:36 PM
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Well, I personally immediately stopped cigarettes with vaping. I know it's not harmless and that I'm still addicted to nicotine but I feel a lot better and I'm pretty confident I've lowered some long term risks.
Conga-rats!
  #185  
Old 09-12-2019, 03:22 AM
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Well, I personally immediately stopped cigarettes with vaping. I know it's not harmless and that I'm still addicted to nicotine but I feel a lot better and I'm pretty confident I've lowered some long term risks.
Because curing addiction is so damn hard I'm all for harm reduction. I'm not entirely convinced vaping is that much safer, but I'll admit I haven't put much study into it, either. It does seem to reduce (although not entirely eliminate) the second hand effects on non-users and that is definitely a win.
  #186  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:36 AM
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Because curing addiction is so damn hard I'm all for harm reduction. I'm not entirely convinced vaping is that much safer, but I'll admit I haven't put much study into it, either. It does seem to reduce (although not entirely eliminate) the second hand effects on non-users and that is definitely a win.
Quite a few of us are for harms reduction. Some of us are particularly concerned with net harms reduction.

There is the potential of the harms reduction you listed above on the one side.

And there is a potential increased harms of the wide easy availability of current product lines resulting in a huge number of NEW nicotine addicts in a generation that had been decreasing that dramatically with some still to determined but real health risks both from the products directly and from increased risk of smoking products as well.

The goal is a max-min question. Where do we draw the lines given what data we have, and which direction lays more burden of proof?

To completely ignore either the potential of benefits (over other methods) or the potential of harms is not ideal. IMHO.

Last edited by DSeid; 09-12-2019 at 09:36 AM.
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