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Old 09-11-2019, 08:49 PM
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Dear Marvel and DC, please shorten the origin stories in your movies.


A quick recap of how Joe Blow became Mr Awesome after a headlong dive into his universe is all that's needed, even when showing it to noobs. Save the hour(s)-long Origin Issue for later in the series, or never, unlike X Men Origins: Wolverine. Origin stories are boring.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:57 PM
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That was the best thing about Captain Marvel I thought , they wrapped the Origin story up as the plot of the movie basically.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:02 PM
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Uncle Ben has suffered enough.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:32 PM
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I think the common problem isn't the origin; it's the pre-origin. The stuff with Peter Parker being bitten by a spider, discovering his powers, using his powers for selfish reasons, having Uncle Ben get killed, and deciding to become a hero - that can be an interesting story. But the stuff before he gets bitten by the story is just the typical life of a high school student. We don't need to spend all that time establishing who Peter's family members and schoolmates are.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:38 PM
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That's one of the reasons I loved 2008's The Incredible Hulk: the origin story was told by the opening credits.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:47 PM
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That's one of the reasons I loved 2008's The Incredible Hulk: the origin story was told by the opening credits.
That, and the origin story had already been done in Hulk in 2003.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:49 PM
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Which was a totally unrelated movie.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:56 PM
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Tim Burton's Batman starts with Batman already active and known, albeit recently started. It has an origin story told briefly in flashback.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:59 PM
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Depends on how popular the character(s) is/are. They did what you suggest with their with their Spider-Man and DCEU Batman movies and that worked fine, but everybody already knows their origins. But somebody like Guardians of the Galaxy, or even Captain America when his first movie hit and they didn't.

And lot of people, like myself, often find heroes origin stories to be the best stories told for some characters. At the very least they give you the characters motivations, and a full movie origin story can give you a lot of insight into a character's head.

So, I can kind of agree, if the audience already knows the story, no origin story or a minimal recap. But if they don't, full origin movie.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:09 PM
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Tim Burton's Batman starts with Batman already active and known, albeit recently started. It has an origin story told briefly in flashback.
I admit, I kinda liked how Knox (Robert Wuhl) did some basic research into Bruce Wayne's history and told Vicki Vale (Kim Basinger) that he suspected Wayne was a very screwed-up individual for having witnessed his parents being murdered.

It's notable that Knox was trying to get Vale to be interested in him instead of Wayne, and that Knox didn't imagine that Wayne was expressing his trauma in the form of chiropteran-themed vigilantism, but really, how much detail does a story like that need?

One minor element I found annoying in Michael Keaton's performance as Wayne is that he occasionally played Wayne as a comical character (not the irresponsible-playboy cover that Christian Bale would much later perform, but just silly for no reason) and there was virtually no indication of the physical training he'd have to be constantly doing to maintain his Batmantics.


Incidentally, I find the Jesus-imagery that keeps sneaking into various cinematic portrayals of the Superman origin to be especially irritating. He has far more in common with Moses in the bulrushes than Jesus.
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Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 09-11-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:15 AM
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Depends on how popular the character(s) is/are. They did what you suggest with their with their Spider-Man and DCEU Batman movies and that worked fine, but everybody already knows their origins. But somebody like Guardians of the Galaxy, or even Captain America when his first movie hit and they didn't.

And lot of people, like myself, often find heroes origin stories to be the best stories told for some characters. At the very least they give you the characters motivations, and a full movie origin story can give you a lot of insight into a character's head.

So, I can kind of agree, if the audience already knows the story, no origin story or a minimal recap. But if they don't, full origin movie.
Yeah, this. In the MCU, with a single exception, every second movie was a step down from the origin movie. The only one that got better was Captain America:The Winter Soldier, and only because that's one of the top 3 MCU movies anyway. A well done origin story should be and usually is a great movie.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:37 AM
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Origins we never should have to sit through again:
Batman-We all know he got bitten by a radioactive bat.
Superman-Magic ring from the Superman Corps
Spiderman-Spiders killed his parents in a dark alley after they saw "Kiss Of The Spider Woman".
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:48 AM
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Yeah, it's not the origins I think you're complaining about. It's the thrice-told tales that we already know. For example, essentially the first two seasons of Jessica Jones were her origin story. And it was great. Ditto some of the others. But telling Spider-man or Superman again seems pointless unless you really come up with a new spin on it.

Best origin of Superman was in 'All Star Superman'.

Four panels. Eight Words.

Doomed Planet
Desperate Scientists
Last Son
Kindly Couple

Almost like Morrison was saying, "Can we get on with it, now?"
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:59 AM
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From a writers perspective, other than the origin story what drama is there? A super hero is super, they are not easily injured or killed. Their interpersonal conflicts between superheros are as interesting as a Real World episode.

They are dumb, but the origin story is the only actual story, the rest is T&A and explosions.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:21 AM
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Marvel's been pretty good at keeping it a mix. Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Captain America, and Ant-Man all got "pure" origin story movies. Black Panther, Spider-Man, Hulk, and Thor all started with them already heroes. GotG is about them becoming a team but isn't an origin for any of the characters. Captain Marvel starts with her already having powers but then uses flashbacks to tell her origin.

Curious to see how they'll handle all the new properties being introduced with Phase 4.

Last edited by enalzi; 09-12-2019 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:08 AM
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From a writers perspective, other than the origin story what drama is there? A super hero is super, they are not easily injured or killed. Their interpersonal conflicts between superheros are as interesting as a Real World episode.

They are dumb, but the origin story is the only actual story, the rest is T&A and explosions.
So you were the guy in the theater watching Endgame and saying "It's okay but it's not as good as Ant-Man."
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:45 AM
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We are all sick of the origin stories we've seen a million times already and those don't need to be told again. But the Guardians of the Galaxy "origin" was their incredibly entertaining first movie, ditto Ant Man, and I had zero idea how Black Panther, Dr Strange or Captain Marvel got their powers until i saw their movies. We don't need to see Batman's parents get killed, or the Fantastic 4's doomed trip to outer space, hell we got an entire multi season tv show about Superman's origin. When something like Moon Knight or Shang chi come out i certainly hope we get a decent origin story because I've never heard of them.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:52 AM
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So you were the guy in the theater watching Endgame and saying "It's okay but it's not as good as Ant-Man."
As a movie, as a story, of course Ant-Man was better. For Endgame any drama and character development was done in the ten movies that came before the finale. And finale is all Endgame was.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:52 AM
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Beg to differ on The FF. The movies have fucked up their origin over and over again(and in the process messed with the origin of Victor Von Doom, to boot).
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:25 PM
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Origins we never should have to sit through again:
Batman-We all know he got bitten by a radioactive bat.
Superman-Magic ring from the Superman Corps
Spiderman-Spiders killed his parents in a dark alley after they saw "Kiss Of The Spider Woman".
Are you being Czarcastic?


Yep, I think origin stories can be done away with for the most part, namely for the well-known heroes. Marvel even said a few years ago that they want to do away with origin stories. Sometimes they're needed, but I think the movie would be much better if they can somehow wrap the origin into the story without the entire movie being about the origin itself.
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:37 PM
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From a writers perspective, other than the origin story what drama is there? A super hero is super, they are not easily injured or killed. Their interpersonal conflicts between superheros are as interesting as a Real World episode.

They are dumb, but the origin story is the only actual story, the rest is T&A and explosions.
You create drama by giving the hero problems, and by having them face off against smart villains, something superhero films have had a hard time creating.
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:51 PM
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Anybody who thinks that Captain America needed yet another origin movie doesn't watch Svengooli.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:02 PM
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Anybody who thinks that Captain America needed yet another origin movie doesn't watch Svengooli.
I have seen this movie and it is indeed bad. Probably the most amusing part is when Captain America, super soldier, super hero, a man at peak human condition, tries to trick Ned Beatty by pretending to be sick and hopping out of the car.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:25 PM
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As a movie, as a story, of course Ant-Man was better. For Endgame any drama and character development was done in the ten movies that came before the finale. And finale is all Endgame was.
I was being sarcastic right up to the point where you agreed with me.

You seem to have the idea that there is only one good type of story and that a movie that tells any other type of story is therefore bad.

I disagree. I think most people would disagree. There are many different stories that can be told and they can all be told poorly or well.

Personally, I think the central point of the superhero genre is the characters being superheroes. If you're not going to show them in situations where they need to use their superpowers, why make a movie about superheroes? You might as well make a movie about normal people.

And from that point of view how the character acquired superpowers is irrelevant to the plot. If you're making a legal thriller, you don't need to show the protagonist going to law school. The audience already understands what a lawyer is and how a person becomes one. The point of an origin in a superhero movie is that the audience doesn't have that same familiarity; you might need to explain how the character came to be where he is.

So an origin story can be good. But you can tell an equally good story about a superhero and never explain their origin. You can even defy what I said above and tell a good story about superheroes and never show them using superpowers (James Gunn did that with The Specials).
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:46 PM
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Anybody who thinks that Captain America needed yet another origin movie doesn't watch Svengooli.
It was a very good movie. I also think that many, many movie goers were not comic book readers.

FTR - I've been reading comics since the 70s, and I've never seen Svengooli.
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:44 PM
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It was a very good movie. I also think that many, many movie goers were not comic book readers.

FTR - I've been reading comics since the 70s, and I've never seen Svengooli.
Sven has been on in one incarnation or another since the 70s. Now he's on MeTV on many cable systems. Here are his bits from Frankenstein. The humor has always been lame. It's part of the charm.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SHIb8pgilTc
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:05 PM
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Sven has been on in one incarnation or another since the 70s. Now he's on MeTV on many cable systems. Here are his bits from Frankenstein. The humor has always been lame. It's part of the charm.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SHIb8pgilTc
"Svengoolie" was, until recent years, pretty much a Chicago thing.

The character is played by a Chicago-area guy named Rich Koz, who has hosted a cheesy movie/comedy show on various Chicago stations for decades. His show is currently on WCIU, which is owned by the same parent company as MeTV -- and, as you note, MeTV now runs the Svengoolie show nationally.

Koz was a fan of the original Svengoolie (played by Jerry G. Bishop), who also hosted a similar movie show in Chicago in the early '70s -- Koz's character was originally known as "Son of Svengoolie" (with Bishop's permission), and eventually dropped the "Son of" portion of the name (again, with Bishop's permission).

/hijack

Last edited by kenobi 65; 09-13-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:49 PM
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Actually, I think that most of the Marvel movies (including Ant-Man) were better than Endgame. But then, I also thought that the first Avengers was better than most of them, so the point remains.
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