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  #201  
Old 07-29-2014, 08:40 PM
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Oh, and I guess I'll bring it up just because no one else has: the whole TNA situation sucks. I haven't watched TNA myself; at this point, RAW and NXT are my weekly must watches, w/ SmackDown and Ring of Honor as nice to see if I can find the time. There's just no room in my wrasslin' watchin' week for another promotion, unless that promotion is flat-out awesome. TNA, from what I understand, is in no danger of being that, though their NY shows were apparently pretty darn good.

But, to paraphrase Eric Bischoff, competition creates cash. To borrow a line from HHH, competition is what's best for business. Not to mention that there's going to be a lot of guys scrambling for work; WWE isn't going to be buying talent wholesale in their current financial state. They might pick up Angle and the Dudleys, if they can pass a physical, but I don't see them raiding much else.

We'll have to see how things play out.
  #202  
Old 07-30-2014, 01:04 PM
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I brought up TNA in a separate thread.

That sank like a stone.
  #203  
Old 07-31-2014, 09:43 AM
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Although with TNA dying, that opens the door for televised Ring of Honor.

Now I have no ideas about Ring of Honor, and I've never seen a promotion and don't know much from it other than "It's where (wrestler x) came from and it's really good!", but I think if any promotion is going to have a chance to be televised its them. I've also heard their quality of wrestling is good which TNA just didn't have.

I also hope they do get on TV, it'd be fun to see a new show and to give WWE some REAL competition like WCW did back in the day
  #204  
Old 07-31-2014, 12:24 PM
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TNA has always had talented wrestlers. They just had no real direction. They had their own identity until they brought WCW failures like Bischoff, Hogan and Russo in to ru(i)n it, and thought they could be as cutting edge as WWE. They tried turning Abyss into another Hulk Hogan. They tried making Bully Ray into another Steve Austin. They copy ideas that worked for other promotions in the past, but times have changed.

Daniel Bryan becomes WWE champ, so they get their own lookalike Eric Young to become their champ. ECW was a hot thing, so they bring in ECW alumni to heat things up again. Problem is, those guys are now 20 years older, and their act just looks quaint. WWE's Authority turns heel, so Dixie Carter turns heel, and can somehow throw a 300 lb man through a table.

RoH at least doesn't pollute their shows with management drama. They're pretty open-door, and will bring in talent from overseas and put on amazing matches. They remind me of the old ECW shows that took place in small venues but had more intense interaction with the audience. My main criticism is that they perhaps rely too much on the death-defying stunts, and that can wear out the novelty. But at least they don't wannabe WWE.
  #205  
Old 07-31-2014, 02:39 PM
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RoH at least doesn't pollute their shows with management drama. They're pretty open-door, and will bring in talent from overseas and put on amazing matches. They remind me of the old ECW shows that took place in small venues but had more intense interaction with the audience. My main criticism is that they perhaps rely too much on the death-defying stunts, and that can wear out the novelty. But at least they don't wannabe WWE.
That actually sounds like the recipe WCW used before they were booked into oblivion.

Bringing in different talent, showcasing different styles of wrestling (WCW had the cruiserweight title and latino title) and had "death defying stunts" (luchadores and their high-flyingness) and did stuff that made them different than the WWE.
  #206  
Old 07-31-2014, 04:07 PM
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I'd just like to see several different styles of wrestling again. That's what I liked about ECW in the 90's. I could see fast paced things between Super Crazy and Tajiri, high risk matches between RVD and Jerry Lynn, and brutal matches between Mike Awesome and Masato Tanaka, all in one card. WWF started copying that to a degree and their wrestling eventually got a lot better.
  #207  
Old 07-31-2014, 06:19 PM
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Although with TNA dying, that opens the door for televised Ring of Honor.

Now I have no ideas about Ring of Honor, and I've never seen a promotion and don't know much from it other than "It's where (wrestler x) came from and it's really good!", but I think if any promotion is going to have a chance to be televised its them. I've also heard their quality of wrestling is good which TNA just didn't have.

I also hope they do get on TV, it'd be fun to see a new show and to give WWE some REAL competition like WCW did back in the day
Ring of Honor has a one-hour weekly show that's available in some, but not all of the country. I DVR it (seeing as it's not on until 1 AM Friday night here), and I don't always watch it, but it's pretty decent - much like NXT, it's a very wrestling-centric program. It apparently airs on a tape delay of several weeks and is out of sync with their PPVs (which I haven't really looked at yet) which can make it difficult to follow the world title scene, but the Television Championship is usually pretty prominent. (I think Jay Lethal, formerly of TNA, is the TV champ right now.)

They apparently did a crossover PPV with New Japan awhile back, which they showed a couple matches from on their weekly show, and it looks good.

Last edited by Smapti; 07-31-2014 at 06:20 PM.
  #208  
Old 08-01-2014, 06:10 PM
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While I'd love to see RoH get a national TV deal, I don't really think Sinclair is interested in going that route. If they did, they'd have to start out by improving their production to a level that at least approaches "professional"--right now, it's more "high school football game on local access TV". Obviously there's no need to bring it up to WWE level, but I don't see why NXT level shouldn't be doable.

I did go to one of their live shows here a few weeks back. Heck of a good show--it was pretty much total nonstop action. In fact, by the time we got to the main event, my friend and I were kinda worn out. I guess pops are kind of like bumps--you've only got so many of them in you. Luckily, the pop counter resets on a regular basis.

ETA: Oh, forgot to mention--RoH put their weekly TV show up free on their website, so if you want to watch it but aren't in a market with it, there's nothing stopping you.

Last edited by LawMonkey; 08-01-2014 at 06:13 PM.
  #209  
Old 08-05-2014, 07:28 AM
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Pure curiosity...

Would anyone happen to know where I can watch Summerslam? And how much it might be?





















  #210  
Old 08-05-2014, 08:25 PM
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Well, that show was a hot mess. It started w/ giving the Network's excellent price heel heat that, as the show went on, drifted for those of us back at home, at least, into X-Pac heat, and just kept the hits comin' from there. It had its highlights: Dean worked an awesome match w/ ADR, then did the best ringside distraction routine ever, and did I mention that HEATH SLATER MAIN EVENTED RAW AND PINNED SETH ROLLINS!!! Oh, and THE DEMON (gentleman) KANE handed in his mask, perhaps recognizing that he hasn't won a match since putting it on.

But Cesaro jobbed out in like two minutes, because we needed the time to give him a good match (which he totally could have had with Zigs) to play the (very good) hype video we played up near the top of the show for a second time in the third hour. And they missed the opportunity to have Leo Kruger looking back at Adam Rose from the Oculus mirror. Brie and Nikki continued to be lady John Cenas (Johns Cena?), getting heel heat from at least some of us when they're supposed to be faces. (It's not quite as bad as it is with Cena, but then, we've not had to listen to Brie try to act and make prison bitch jokes for 10+ years, either.) I think everyone agrees Steph was pretty great, though.

Also, it's fun watching the 'E react to its financial woes by trying to get more edgy while staying within the technical bounds of PG... sort of. It started, IIRC, with Brie calling Steph a bitch... then Roman got cleared to say ass... then Brie and Steph each had to say "bitch" at least five times a show... then Ron Simmons came and gave Roman "damn"... and now Brock has added bodily fluids to the party and Brie is making prison bitch jokes. I was going to say we'd have everything but fuck and cunt by Night of Champions at the latest, but we don't even have that far to go!
  #211  
Old 08-06-2014, 10:17 AM
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Well, that show was a hot mess. It started w/ giving the Network's excellent price heel heat that, as the show went on, drifted for those of us back at home, at least, into X-Pac heat, and just kept the hits comin' from there. It had its highlights: Dean worked an awesome match w/ ADR, then did the best ringside distraction routine ever, and did I mention that HEATH SLATER MAIN EVENTED RAW AND PINNED SETH ROLLINS!!! Oh, and THE DEMON (gentleman) KANE handed in his mask, perhaps recognizing that he hasn't won a match since putting it on.

But Cesaro jobbed out in like two minutes, because we needed the time to give him a good match (which he totally could have had with Zigs) to play the (very good) hype video we played up near the top of the show for a second time in the third hour. And they missed the opportunity to have Leo Kruger looking back at Adam Rose from the Oculus mirror. Brie and Nikki continued to be lady John Cenas (Johns Cena?), getting heel heat from at least some of us when they're supposed to be faces. (It's not quite as bad as it is with Cena, but then, we've not had to listen to Brie try to act and make prison bitch jokes for 10+ years, either.) I think everyone agrees Steph was pretty great, though.

Also, it's fun watching the 'E react to its financial woes by trying to get more edgy while staying within the technical bounds of PG... sort of. It started, IIRC, with Brie calling Steph a bitch... then Roman got cleared to say ass... then Brie and Steph each had to say "bitch" at least five times a show... then Ron Simmons came and gave Roman "damn"... and now Brock has added bodily fluids to the party and Brie is making prison bitch jokes. I was going to say we'd have everything but fuck and cunt by Night of Champions at the latest, but we don't even have that far to go!

I don't know where you think the Bellas are getting Cena-heat, but they are both being huge faces right now. It's probably because Steph is AMAZING at what she does, so the fans are loving the rivalry right now.

Cesaro losing is kinda weird to me because I think "creative" doesn't know what to do with him. They don't want to give him the IC belt since its on a newly minted Miz (and possibly Zigs which would be...pardon the term...awesome), and they know he isn't big enough to fight for the bit title(s), so he's kind of in no-man's land, especially after the Paul Heyman failure.

IIRC correctly this is two wins in a row for Heath Slater after the 3mbreakup, I don't know if WWE is pushing him, or banking on the fact that he's a nobody, but if his wins keep coming I'm not gonna complain.

This should be an awesome Summerslam, I'm looking forward to pretty much every match!
  #212  
Old 08-06-2014, 10:30 AM
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Anyone else suspect a Nikki Bella heel turn at Summerslam?
  #213  
Old 08-06-2014, 10:49 AM
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Oh, and I guess I'll bring it up just because no one else has: the whole TNA situation sucks. I haven't watched TNA myself; at this point, RAW and NXT are my weekly must watches, w/ SmackDown and Ring of Honor as nice to see if I can find the time.
Where do you watch ROH? I've looked for it on and off for years.
  #214  
Old 08-06-2014, 12:17 PM
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Anyone else suspect a Nikki Bella heel turn at Summerslam?
Like join The Authority? Turn on Brie?

I would doubt it. If anything I would think that Brie would turn on Nikki so that everyone in the Cena family would be uber-faces
  #215  
Old 08-06-2014, 12:24 PM
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Like join The Authority? Turn on Brie?

I would doubt it. If anything I would think that Brie would turn on Nikki so that everyone in the Cena family would be uber-faces
Gotta give the Bellas something to do after Summerfest. Sibling warfare is a wrestling tradition. And I still maintain, sooner than later, Cena has got to turn. Many fans will be cheering Brock over Cena. Reigns, Ambrose and a returning Bryan will be top faces. At some point, Cena will need to turn and the seeds are planted for several good reasons for that turn.
  #216  
Old 08-06-2014, 12:33 PM
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And I still maintain, sooner than later, Cena has got to turn. Many fans will be cheering Brock over Cena. Reigns, Ambrose and a returning Bryan will be top faces.
Why? He sells more merchandise than anyone else by a huge margin, he's far more popular with the kids (which is the most important demographic for a number of reasons) than Reigns or Ambrose or Bryan are, and Cena personally loves being able to work with Make-a-Wish and do meet-and-greets with the troops. (Side note: In another online community, I know an active-duty Marine who met Cena in Iraq several years ago and absolutely loves the guy because of how cool he is in real life and how much he loves the troops.) The people who dislike Cena are a relatively small part of WWE's audience and are less likely to pay to go to live shows or to buy PPVs or merch, and they probably still wouldn't buy Cena merch if he turned heel anyway. It makes no sense from a business standpoint for WWE or a personal standpoint for Cena.

As for Lesnar, I honestly don't see the man who conquered the Streak ever getting face heat no matter who he's up against. Reigns and Ambrose both have potential to be top faces, but they'll never be Cena-level top faces, and it's not a sure thing whether Bryan will actually be able to return since he's having to undergo another surgery.

Last edited by Smapti; 08-06-2014 at 12:34 PM.
  #217  
Old 08-06-2014, 01:03 PM
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Why? He sells more merchandise than anyone else by a huge margin, he's far more popular with the kids (which is the most important demographic for a number of reasons) than Reigns or Ambrose or Bryan are, and Cena personally loves being able to work with Make-a-Wish and do meet-and-greets with the troops. (Side note: In another online community, I know an active-duty Marine who met Cena in Iraq several years ago and absolutely loves the guy because of how cool he is in real life and how much he loves the troops.) The people who dislike Cena are a relatively small part of WWE's audience and are less likely to pay to go to live shows or to buy PPVs or merch, and they probably still wouldn't buy Cena merch if he turned heel anyway. It makes no sense from a business standpoint for WWE or a personal standpoint for Cena.

(Note: I realize this depends upon Bryan being able to return. But I'm hoping he will.)

Cena sells merchandise now, but how about tomorrow? It is hard to deny that face Cena peaked a while ago. What the WWE needs is a big story to sell the new Network, and a heel turn by Cena would be that story. Seriously, after he loses to Brock, what is left for Cena? How do you keep selling his merchandise and winning over the kids when the "Champ" will be out of the title picture?

Sure it would be a big gamble, but not so much as it would have been a few years ago. Here is the guy that put the Rock out of wrestling. He is booed by a significant number of fans already. The fans "voted" Cena to face all the Wyatts. He has done everything right and still gets booed. Now is the time for the turn while the character is still near the top. He will be booed by more than some at Summerslam. Survivior Series screwjob anyone?

Hogan turned heel successfully. Austin turned heel (less successfully). Punk turned heel while still champion. Down the road a few years Cena can become a face again like they all do. But now is the time to shock the Wrestling World and get those Network numbers up.
  #218  
Old 08-06-2014, 01:13 PM
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The big difference is that Hulk Hogan really had stopped being a draw by the time they turned him heel - it's been written that WCW had to give out free Hulk merch to audience members, and confiscate signs making fun of him around '95-'96. Cena is still six years younger than Hogan was when he turned, and has only been wrestling for half as long as Hogan had at that point. True, Cena gets booed often (and in some cities more than others), but it's hard to tell how much of that is genuine fan dislike and how much of it is just the live audience having fun. Hell, I like Cena, and at the live shows I've been to I chant along with the "CENA SUCKS!" crowd just because it's fun to do so.

As far as selling the Network, I think having Brock as champion, and his wrestling exclusively on PPV, will be a big shot in the arm there without taking such a big gambit on Cena, and the fact that the worldwide launch of the Network is coming up in just a few weeks is going to be a big boost as well. Maybe Cena will turn heel in the future, but I don't think now is the time.
  #219  
Old 08-06-2014, 02:30 PM
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Where do you watch ROH? I've looked for it on and off for years.
ROH is syndicated, and only available on Sinclair-owned stations. Only these cities have it:
Asheville, NC
Baltimore
Birmingham
Buffalo
Cape Girardeau, MO
Cedar Rapids
Charleston, SC
Charleston, WV
Cincinnati
Columbus
Dayton
Des Moines
Flint
Greensboro
Greenville, SC
Las Vegas
Lexington
Madison, WI
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
Mobile
Nashville
Norfolk
Oklahoma City
Paducah, KY
Pensacola
Peoria
Pittsburgh
Portland, ME
Raleigh
Richmond
Rochester, NY
San Antonio
Springfield, IL
St Louis
Syracuse
Tallahassee
Tampa

Back to WWE: anybody know why WWE Network didn't have a post-RAW show this week? This is the third time this has happened.
  #220  
Old 08-06-2014, 02:36 PM
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Catch-22

Cena won't turn heel while he's still #1 merch seller.
He'll be #1 until someone else unseats him.
They won't build anyone else up enough to unseat him while he's still #1.

So we can count on another 5-7 years of LOLCENAWINS until they're utterly FORCED to build a new top star. Meanwhile a good half-dozen people who had the potential to unseat him will come and go, or simply be buried too far to be rebuilt to those levels.
  #221  
Old 08-06-2014, 02:39 PM
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ROH is syndicated, and only available on Sinclair-owned stations. Only these cities have it...
You left out Seattle, which definitely has it, because I watch it here.

A full listing of stations and timeslots that show ROH can be found on their website, here.

And as has been noted above, every week ROH posts the previous week's show on their website, so if you don't live in an area where it's televised, you can still catch it there.

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Back to WWE: anybody know why WWE Network didn't have a post-RAW show this week? This is the third time this has happened.
Budget cuts, I assume. They're having to trim a lot of fat this summer due to the shareholder concerns over the Network (which will eventually blow over, but nobody ever accused the stock-buying public of being rational actors).

Last edited by Smapti; 08-06-2014 at 02:43 PM.
  #222  
Old 08-06-2014, 02:55 PM
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You left out Seattle, which definitely has it, because I watch it here.
I must have gotten an older list - the one I had definitely didn't have any California cities on it, but your link includes Bakersfield.
  #223  
Old 08-06-2014, 03:55 PM
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Budget cuts, I assume. They're having to trim a lot of fat this summer due to the shareholder concerns over the Network (which will eventually blow over, but nobody ever accused the stock-buying public of being rational actors).
It can't be this.

The network is about the only thing the WWE is holding its hat on to get them OUT of this funk they're in, they can't start cutting shows on it (not to mention a staple show) this early in the ballgame

ETA: Flagship. The word I meant was flagship, not staple

Last edited by Sir T-Cups; 08-06-2014 at 03:56 PM.
  #224  
Old 08-06-2014, 06:01 PM
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Catch-22
And if you turn Cena heel, then all the teen/adult males who currently hate him because he's stale/SuperCena/etc then will start cheering him again, resulting in a still-divided audience except that the demographics probably aren't as good for merchandise sales.
  #225  
Old 08-06-2014, 06:10 PM
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And if you turn Cena heel, then all the teen/adult males who currently hate him because he's stale/SuperCena/etc then will start cheering him again, resulting in a still-divided audience except that the demographics probably aren't as good for merchandise sales.
Not necessarily. If they make the turned Cena a self-righteous jerk who "deserves" to be liked but is not, then he might just pull heat from both factions. Molded like the heel Bret Hart, Cena could draw massive boos.
  #226  
Old 08-06-2014, 07:17 PM
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They don't even have to do it all at once. Cena already gives promos about people booing him, about how he's given his life to the company. Just amp that up a bit, add some subtle, growing anger. Talk about how he's been the #1 guy for 10 years, he's earned his spot and he's earned people's respect. Lose to Lesnar. Get pushed down the card. Get disrespected. Get quietly angrier. After two months, get put in a match with Zach Ryder. No post or pre-match beatdown, no actual cheating, nothing traditional... Just slowly beats the ever living fuck out of Ryder while deliberately prolonging the match. 15-20 minute match later, Ryder is a puddle of goo and the announcers are stunned by what they've seen, not entirely sure what to make of it. Renee interviews Cena backstage later in the show. He calmly talks about how he's been the #1 guy for 10 years and deserves everything he's ever gotten or wanted. But tonight they gave him Zach Ryder, and he showed them what he thought of that idea.

From there, he just savagely beats down every opponent he thinks is beneath where he deserves to be. Kofi Kingston, Adam Rose, other mid-card faces not currently in hot angles.
  #227  
Old 08-06-2014, 08:36 PM
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I don't know where you think the Bellas are getting Cena-heat, but they are both being huge faces right now. It's probably because Steph is AMAZING at what she does, so the fans are loving the rivalry right now.
Eh. There's at least a few of us smark types who have trouble w/ Brie because, to be kind, her acting leaves something to be desired. There's also a case to be made that she's not exactly been a saint in this feud, but mostly she's just got anti-charisma. It's a shame Steph (and HHH) don't have a dance partner worthy of their skills.

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Cesaro losing is kinda weird to me because I think "creative" doesn't know what to do with him.
No kidding. They've booked him for crap ever since Mania--he came out of it ready to be a red-hot face, then they paired him with Paul and whipped him around heel again and (per the rumors) tried to astroturf a D-Bry style story for him, but just wound up taking all that heat away. To see him jobbing out like that... just... ouch. He's good enough to bounce back, I hope.

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The people who dislike Cena are a relatively small part of WWE's audience and are less likely to pay to go to live shows or to buy PPVs or merch, and they probably still wouldn't buy Cena merch if he turned heel anyway.
You've usually got half the house chanting (or singing) "Cena sucks!" with more in your smarky cities like Chicago and New York; folks that don't like Cena are anything but rare. That said, I agree that we're not likely to rush out and buy merch in anything like the way Cena moves it to the kids (mostly).

SummerSlam does look good so far; fingers crossed that they don't drop the ball again like they did w/ Battleground, which looked good on paper, but fell down in the execution.

Oh, and if anyone's a fan of the Rhodes Brothers, Jericho had them both on his podcast this week. Good stuff, though I wish they'd gotten a bit further into the thinking on Stardust--I guess he's a bit too fresh still.
  #228  
Old 08-07-2014, 07:39 AM
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I still think it will be a few years until Cena turns heel. While us smarks can't stand him, he's still a big draw to the kids and their merchandise-buying parents. I did think he was going to turn heel against Daniel Bryan, since at one point in his promos he talked about how he earned his big houses and cars because he had the ambition to do so. Bryan just likes to wrestle. He doesn't aspire to be a big name. He said he took a test which revealed he scored in the lowest percentile for ambition. That's been a behind-the-scenes criticism of Bryan, since he doesn't do any political jockeying. The fans like him so much, he doesn't have to.

I've been fast-forwarding through the Stephanie/Brie drama. Their showdown just does not interest me, mainly because I see it as some prima donna from the office who wants air time. The most egregious example I remember of that was when fat blobby Ed Ferrara booked himself over Vampiro in WCW. I guess there has to be at least one match on the card that allows the audience time to get beer refills.
  #229  
Old 08-07-2014, 09:39 AM
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Cena is kind of a victim of circumstance to some degree. I saw Kane interviewed before WM30 in which he said one reason he's had so much success in his career is that he's never had a really serious injury. If you think about it, it's true. Kane has been consistently involved in main event storylines, even at times when it doesn't necessarily make sense. But when you recognize the huge injury rate WWE has, and how they don't have guys "work through injuries" like they used to, it makes sense why a guy like Kane has basically never left the main event tier.

Cena is basically the same way, he's the Hulk Hogan of his era and he's never been injured. Now, Hulk was disliked by a lot of Internet fans, but he was not openly booed by the fans until the early 90s. I remember at one point he had a feud with Sid Justice/Vicious/Eudy who was technically the heel, but the fans were actually cheering Sid. This wasn't long before he left WWE. When Hogan first arrived on the scene at WCW he was even more stale and uninspiring, but then he went heel and had a pretty decent career throughout the 1990s.

Now, unfortunately that didn't translate to him working great matches or anything, but just in terms of merchandise/fan interest/fan reaction, Hollywood Hogan was a winning character.

I'd say Cena hit this point probably 4 years ago, maybe 5. But WWE has absolutely no roster of main event caliber faces with which to replace Cena. Even early WWE had guys like Ultimate Warrior and later Bret Hart they could put the crown on. WCW had Sting, and a few other guys. If WWE flipped Cena heel, they have no one that can be that Ultimate Warrior / Sting / Bret Hart type guy.

Cena has also been simply overused, because of the fact he's the only top tier heel who can wrestle for a year without ending up in the hospital. Sting was basically always a face in the NWA/WCW (to my knowledge), but he wasn't over exposed to the degree Cena has been. Sting was used more judiciously, he'd have big runs, then he'd be a little more in the background. Cena is on almost every Raw and Smackdown, and certainly in every PPV. I don't have a lot against John, at the very least he can at least work a match which guys like Hogan never could in their big run. But he's a victim of circumstance, way too little development of new main event caliber characters in WWE, and the guys they have gotten to that point fizzle out, often due to being sidelined for months and months due to injury right in the middle of what would have been their time to shine.
  #230  
Old 08-07-2014, 02:08 PM
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It can't be this.

The network is about the only thing the WWE is holding its hat on to get them OUT of this funk they're in, they can't start cutting shows on it (not to mention a flagship show) this early in the ballgame
A couple of sources say the reason it was pulled was, the network was debuting its "Video Vault" series and decided to give it maximum exposure by airing it at the time it probably has the largest number of viewers - right after RAW, when people are tuning in expecting to see Backstage Pass.
  #231  
Old 08-07-2014, 02:33 PM
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A couple of sources say the reason it was pulled was, the network was debuting its "Video Vault" series and decided to give it maximum exposure by airing it at the time it probably has the largest number of viewers - right after RAW, when people are tuning in expecting to see Backstage Pass.
That makes more sense.

A lot like when the debuted that first "Monday Night Wars" episode, or the CM Punk special, etc.
  #232  
Old 08-07-2014, 08:29 PM
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I still think it will be a few years until Cena turns heel. While us smarks can't stand him, he's still a big draw to the kids and their merchandise-buying parents.
Honestly, I think he could turn some of us smarks with a few tweaks to his character. I'm not asking for anything radical, like learning how to really sell; the man's been in the ring for ten years, after all. If he's not got that yet, he's not going to (and arguably, it would be out of character). But, for example--the man can cut a promo when he wants to. I mean, look at his promo last week(?), with Heyman. Look at the video package this week (so I'm told; I was eating and kinda tuned it out other than BLOOD, URINE & VOMIT). Look at his promo back after MITB w/ Steph and H (ok, Steph and H stole the show, but they'd steal it from anyone other than Heyman, Ambrose or Wyatt at this point). Heck, even look at some of his promos from the Wyatt feud--basically every other week he'd cut a promo that put Wyatt over. That's the Cena we want--Serious Cena, w/ fire and a love for the business (and the company, let's be honest) and yes, even some Hustle, Loyalty & Respect. Jokin' Jern, who likes crappy photoshops and sings about Bray Wyatt having no testicles... not so much. Humor is not your strong point, John; leave it for the professionals. You can get a bit one-note on the serious thing as well, but you've got a better shot at keeping that relatively fresh and likeable than you do poopy jokes.

So, start with that. Maybe some new theme music (though I have to admit I'd miss being able to sing "John Cena sucks!" along with the melody and make fun of BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR APPLEDOUGH!). Just a few little things. It'd never win over all of the smarky crowd, but it'd at least make him less irritating.

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I've been fast-forwarding through the Stephanie/Brie drama. Their showdown just does not interest me, mainly because I see it as some prima donna from the office who wants air time.
Soooooo... who's the "prima donna from the office" here? Not Steph? I mean, she's the best heel in the company right now (or she would be if she weren't feuding with the Bellas, anyway). Not only that, she demonstrated that she is capable of delivering a Pedigree just as well as her husband. That doesn't mean she can work a decent match--I'm expecting a complete train wreck at SummerSlam--but she's obviously putting a little bit of work into this.

Last edited by LawMonkey; 08-07-2014 at 08:30 PM.
  #233  
Old 08-08-2014, 04:38 AM
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So, the big news today is that Alberto Del Rio has been fired, apparently for slapping a reporter during a press event. I haven't heard of any bad behavior like this out him before, so it sounds like he just snapped for some reason.
  #234  
Old 08-08-2014, 07:26 AM
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So, the big news today is that Alberto Del Rio has been fired, apparently for slapping a reporter during a press event. I haven't heard of any bad behavior like this out him before, so it sounds like he just snapped for some reason.
A reporter is much more serious than what I've herd.

I heard he either decked The Miz (HA!) or RKO. It makes more sense to outright fire him if he nailed a reporter though
  #235  
Old 08-08-2014, 07:32 AM
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LawMonkey: Actually, I like Cena (ducks). I could tell he was going to be the next Steve Austin. He's "establishment" now, but before his apex, he was the rebel. I read where he made his mark when he rapped about a can of tuna for Stephanie. He knows the business, he puts over nobodies like Zack Ryder, and he expertly reconciles the jeers he gets from the smarks. He knows how to get heat. Remember how he used to wear the jersey for the host city's sports team for cheap heat? Nobody else on the roster is as committed to the company as he is, except for maybe Kane. Sure, there's better wrestlers, but Cena's got the look, connects to the audience, fronts all the charity efforts, and doesn't let ego get in the way.

And yes, I mean Stephanie as "prima donna from the office." I realize she's 100% committed to the business, just as HHH and Vince are, but I can't let go of my prejudices. :-) Let the wrestlers who have trained and done all the hard work be the stars, and just limit the bookers' involvement to getting knocked off the ring apron.

Smapti: I'm glad Del Rio got the axe. He stopped being interesting when they took away Ricardo Rodriguez.
  #236  
Old 08-08-2014, 11:16 AM
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Smapti: I'm glad Del Rio got the axe. He stopped being interesting when they took away Ricardo Rodriguez.
Well, I'm never happy when someone loses their job, but he's definitely been rudderless since they split him from Ricardo (who was also released recently, because he wants to go back to actually wrestling instead of being on commentary). I liked Del Rio when he was doing the "made in America" babyface gimmick last year, and the beginning of his heel turn was great, but he's just been stuck in midcard limbo ever since. Chances are he'll go to Mexico after his 90 days are up and go back to being Dos Caras Jr. since he never actually "unmasked" per se, and he'll probably do well there.
  #237  
Old 08-08-2014, 11:53 AM
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ROH is syndicated, and only available on Sinclair-owned stations. Only these cities have it:
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Figures. I'm in Orlando.
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Honestly, I think he could turn some of us smarks with a few tweaks to his character. I'm not asking for anything radical, like learning how to really sell; the man's been in the ring for ten years, after all.
You know, I've always hated Cena (mostly because of the way he was pushed without earning his stripes, a la early Rock), but I'll say this for him: the man has a tremendous workrate for a headliner. It's easy to forget now that Vince is over his "push according to height order" theory of the early 90s, but WWE has typically put the belt on the worst wrestlers in the world. Seriously, who enjoyed Hogan's matches even in hs prime? Yokozuna? Diesel Kevin Nash?
  #238  
Old 08-08-2014, 12:19 PM
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Cena isn't amazing in the ring, but that is a point I make. He's a decent worker, he works tough, physical matches. He takes big bumps, he wrestles guys who work stiff (which not many really do anymore.) Basically the opposite of Hogan, who wouldn't wrestle with anyone who was stiff at all, barely took bumps. Cena can't sell very well but he works in the ring--and most importantly he genuinely does about 300 events a year.

Guys like Hogan in his prime might be on regular TV once a month, and would headline PPVs (of which they had four a year for most of Hogan's big run.) In WCW Hogan was the same, it was basically every 2-3 Nitro he would deign to make an appearance, and actually wrestling on TV even rarer (it was way out of the norm when he actually wrestled a championship match against Goldberg as the Nitro main event.)

I do think after Diesel dropped the belt to Bret Hart Vince has done a decent job of mostly keeping guys that can work a match with the strap--Bret, Shawn, Austin, Undertaker, HHH, Rock, Foley, Kane, Edge, Jericho, Cena, RKO etc.
  #239  
Old 08-08-2014, 01:06 PM
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Sigh. Hogan's talking about having one last match after his back heals, with Cena. The Big Boot and Leg Drop of Doom looked puny when he was in his 30s. They'll look even more sick in his 60s. Just go back to figurehead status, Hogan. Your glory days are far behind you.
  #240  
Old 08-08-2014, 02:09 PM
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The only come back I'd probably like to see is Austin vs Cena or something. Austin was always underrated as a worker, before he neck injury (Stunning Steve Austin / The Ringmaster / Steve Austin pre-SCSA) he was actually a gifted technical wrestler and had some legitimately great matches (you can see these on the WWE Network in fact, not sure on the pricing, though.) But even after his multiple knee injuries and neck injury turned him into a brawler, he was a hell of a worker brawler. His matches were electric and extremely high paced, his moveset was limited to Thesz Pressing, knee drops, punches and kicks (with a few things thrown in) but he worked the crowd, told the story in the ring, and had a tremendous pace. You really felt like you were watching a legitimate, knock down, drag out, ass kicking when Austin was on his game in the SCSA era.

He's actually kept in very good shape in retirement, and he actually said in an interview recently that both his knees and neck are actually in far better shape than they were at any point during his championship runs in WWE, due to rehabbing, rest, and his aggressive training. I think Austin could do one more big WM style match with a current generation star.
  #241  
Old 08-08-2014, 02:31 PM
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Diesel could have a decent match with someone that could carry him, like Bret or Shawn. His matches with people like Mabel were terrible though.
  #242  
Old 08-08-2014, 05:54 PM
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LawMonkey: Actually, I like Cena (ducks). I could tell he was going to be the next Steve Austin. He's "establishment" now, but before his apex, he was the rebel. I read where he made his mark when he rapped about a can of tuna for Stephanie. He knows the business, he puts over nobodies like Zack Ryder, and he expertly reconciles the jeers he gets from the smarks. He knows how to get heat. Remember how he used to wear the jersey for the host city's sports team for cheap heat? Nobody else on the roster is as committed to the company as he is, except for maybe Kane. Sure, there's better wrestlers, but Cena's got the look, connects to the audience, fronts all the charity efforts, and doesn't let ego get in the way.
Nah, even I don't mind Cena sometimes, and he drove me away from the product back when he was getting his big push (right down our throats). But he seems to be a genuinely good guy, he has a sense of humor about himself, and he can work a decent match (though it's a crap shoot--he can also ruin it by no-selling). It's also a crap shoot on whether he's going to put a new talent over or bury them--see, e.g., the Wyatt feud. I think he's got something of a tin ear at times--he doesn't understand how to make his tone fit the storyline. Or that weird humming thing he was doing with the Usos back around the same time.

Oh, and occasionally he does really awesome stuff like challenging Aisha Tyler to a thumb war.

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Figures. I'm in Orlando.
Ooooh. Ever head over to Full Sail to check out an NXT taping?

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...the man has a tremendous workrate for a headliner.
Dumb noobish question: What exactly is "workrate"? It's a term I see thrown around a bit and I can't quite nail down what the hell it means, exactly.

Meanwhile, in other "WWE's firing absolutely everyone who isn't nailed down" news, Mark the timekeeper--apparently not HHH's friend Mark--has been let go as well. This has dire implications for anyone who wants to see Steve Austin in the ring again, as Mark was responsible for the laser-like accuracy with which Steveweisers found their way to Stone Cold's waiting hands. If I were Steve, I don't know as I'd trust this sensitive matter to anyone else. (I also wonder if he'll start getting Sierra Nevada Torpedo Extra IPAs tossed into the ring, now that he's a total hophead...)

Last edited by LawMonkey; 08-08-2014 at 05:54 PM.
  #243  
Old 08-08-2014, 06:45 PM
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Stone Cold / Hogan / The Rock were guzzling Bud Light at WM30. SCSA is a total IPA/hop freak these days, but for beer chugging American pale lagers, light as possible, is ideal. Especially since at WM30 he was doing a legit beer chug, versus the "spill beer all over myself and maybe drink 1 oz of it" he did during his career. [From what I hear SCSA drank more than his fair share of beer, but it's pretty reasonable that he didn't legitimately pound 2-3 beers prior to working a 15 minute match.]

Workrate - Basically as all wrestling matches normally are works, which means planned and not competitive, "workrate" simply means "doing that really well." Broadly it means putting on a show really well, and it's a combination generally of "skill" and intensity/effort.

Examples: Shawn Michaels had great in ring skill, and great intensity/effort. His matches were well executed and with great effort. Most of the time, you can find some bad HBK matches though, especially during stormy parts of his career when the drugs were a little too prevalent.

Goldberg is an example of someone with a very high effort level in matches, but bad skill. So he doesn't necessarily have a high workrate, he was intense, but without the requisite skill the effort/intensity made him very dangerous. He injured a lot of people in his career.

Ric Flair for the last 25 years is an example of someone with good skill but poor effort, slow and uninteresting in the ring largely due to old age.

So basically it's a combination of both skill and pacing/effort. It doesn't mean you have to be a high flying fiend, as effort is relative. Most would say Vader had a high workrate and he wasn't one of the Hardys (both had good work rate.) Edge had good workrate, Bret Hart had good workrate (more methodical/slow style compared to HBK.)

Hogan has never had good work rate, even his early 80s matches when he at least tried he still wasn't that good.
  #244  
Old 08-08-2014, 06:55 PM
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Here's more terminology, so you can pretend you have inside knowledge on the forums. :-)
  #245  
Old 08-08-2014, 07:42 PM
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This terminology was all a closely guarded secret up until the late 80s/early 90s. Even the "smarks" of earlier eras didn't quite know all the inner workings of kayfabe, even if they knew a lot of it. In the 90s that all changed with the Internet, there used to be a major Pro Wrestling FAQ that was shared on all the BBS/Usenet groups that basically gave chapter and verse on every single thing about pro wrestling including all the terminology.

That's where I remember a lot of these terms I'd never heard of before (but sort of understood the concept of just from knowing a lot about wrestling.)

Edit: And in the world of Google it's easy to rediscover stuff from the earlier Internet that people have preserved: Link has all the old Usenet FAQs and such.

Last edited by Martin Hyde; 08-08-2014 at 07:43 PM.
  #246  
Old 08-08-2014, 09:52 PM
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Yeah, I was just joking around w/ the IPA thing; he gives Sierra Nevada almost as much free air on his podcast as JR gives Sonic on his. (And seriously, Sonic, fire your two dorks and hire JR as your spokesperson.)

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Workrate - Basically as all wrestling matches normally are works, which means planned and not competitive, "workrate" simply means "doing that really well." Broadly it means putting on a show really well, and it's a combination generally of "skill" and intensity/effort.
Got it, more or less. As I suspected, it's a bit of a squishy term, so it's just going to take a while for me to get my head around it properly. I'll note that when it was used above re: Cena, it seemed to have a certain element of "this dude works a shit-ton of matches" as well. And maybe it does for John Cena, who for all his flaws puts on more good matches than he doesn't; the fact that he does it something like 300 nights a year gives him some bonus points. Damien Sandow doesn't get bonus points for being on basically every single Raw and Smackdown at the moment, because he's stuck in comedy jobber land for pissing in Vince's Wheaties or something--though god bless him, he's giving it his all. Ziggler probably gets credit for a good workrate despite his (usually) jobber status, right? He seems to have the enthusiasm/skill package down pretty good.

So far as the lingo goes in general, I know most of the key words; I picked it up, believe it or not, from a radio host I listened to back in the early 2000s, Lionel. He was a wrestling fan, and would regularly use wrestling slang in other contexts--politics and political commentary especially. I remain convinced that wrestling slang, especially work/shoot and related terms, is often terribly useful in non-wrestling contexts, if only the person you're talking to understands what you mean.

Which reminds me, to cap off this rambly post: Piper apparently cut a promo on the internet in his most recent podcast episode. I don't know the details, because after he got done talking to his son (which was sweet; Piper's obviously a real softie under the kilt, so to speak) he more or less locked himself in a closet and... had himself a good ol' rant at a bunch of people. I gave up pretty quick--a) it's not what I tune in for and b) I had no idea what the hell he was talking about. It wasn't so much a podcast as an open letter to certain individuals who had pissed him off, and if you weren't those individuals and you didn't know what the hell was rambling about, it wasn't likely to make much sense. Mentioned here just because, at the top of the rant, he was bitching about the IWC having the lingo wrong--it wasn't kayfabe, it was (something like) "kayfabin", and it wasn't jobber, it was something in Italian. Right or wrong, not Roddy's finest hour, IMO...
  #247  
Old 08-09-2014, 11:42 AM
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So, barring any last minute changes, injuries, or surprise midget matches, it looks like we've got the following eight-match card coming up at Summerslam next week;

* Cena vs. Lesnar for the world title. I know this isn't the first time they've feuded, but this match has had a good build and I'm really looking forward to it. Prediction: Lesnar wins and he wins decisively.

* Ziggler vs. Miz for the IC title. AFAIK this will be Miz's first title defense, and Ziggler's first shot at a title in awhile. Ziggler has been looking good lately, but I predict Miz retains in order to further build his Hollywood heel persona.

* Paige vs. AJ for the Divas title. Not particularly looking forward to this match since they've done it four times already, and AJ matches pretty much always go the same way. I'd like to see Paige win, but I predict AJ retains so they can keep her as a face champion until Charlotte comes up to the main roster to challenge her.

* Rollins vs. Ambrose in a lumberjack match. I assume that in kayfabe Ambrose picked this stipulation in order to stop Seth from running and the Authority from interfering. I expect both to happen anyway. This is a hard match to call - Seth could use a win since he's probably going to be treading water storywise until after Wrestlemania - I mean, can you imagine Seth trying to cash in his MITB on Brock Lesnar? I mean, I can imagine it, but I can't imagine it going well for Seth. I'd personally prefer to see Ambrose win because I love the hardcore brawling style he's been using since the Shield broke up, but let's call it Rollins by a nose.

* Rusev vs. Swagger in a flag match. It must have been decades since WWE has done a flag match, but it's the perfect blowoff for this feud. (I'm not even sure what the rules for a flav match are, though.) Rusev has been undefeated since January, but this is a good opportunity to have him put over babyface Swagger in a way that allows Lana to claim that Rusev was never pinned and didn't submit, just like VLADAMEER POOTIN.

* Jericho vs. Wyatt, Harper and Rowan banned from ringside. Easy booking here - the Family intervenes anyway, causing a DQ and setting up a blowoff for Night of Champions.

* Stephanie vs. Brie, Brie "gets her job back" if she wins. Again, easy call - Brie wins because that's the only logical ending to this storyline and because it's his time Steph got some comeuppance.

* Reigns vs. Orton. This one could really go either way, but the common sense logic says Reigns needs the win more if he's going to be a contender for the title down the road.

There's also been rumors of a four-way tag titles match on the pre-show, Usos vs. Rybaxel, the Wyatt's, and the Rhodeses. IMO, the Ascension is going to be coming to the main roster and taking those belts soon, so if this match goes forward, the Usos will likely retain for now.

Overall, it has the potential to be the strongest card since Wrestlemania, and I'm looking forward to most of it.

Last edited by Smapti; 08-09-2014 at 11:46 AM.
  #248  
Old 08-09-2014, 03:56 PM
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I love Roddy Piper's stories. Here he talks about when he first got into the business, he was 15 years old. Mad Dog Vachon told him to drive him to Kansas City. Along the way, Mad Dog had him pull over to a diner. Mad Dog ordered two large meals and after eating them, fell over and out of the booth, clutching his chest. He wouldn't let anybody call an ambulance. Instead, he told Piper to drive him to the hospital. Two minutes after they left, Mad Dog straightened up and said "we won't go into there again, that's how you eat for free kid."
  #249  
Old 08-09-2014, 05:45 PM
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One nitpick on your card, Smapti--IIRC, Brie has her job back regardless. The match is just for shits and giggles, basically.
  #250  
Old 08-09-2014, 10:27 PM
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Just back from Guardians of the Galaxy, which was great. Rocket and Groot remind me of Enzo and Big Cass--I can totally see Rocket saying, "We're big stars--we take meteor showers."

Oh, and Bluetista was actually really damn good. Gonna be interesting to see where he goes from here.
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