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  #901  
Old 08-15-2018, 11:59 AM
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How does this reduce Brock Turner's guilt?

If I leave my keys in my car, and the car is stolen, I absolutely acted in a stupid way that led to my car being stolen.

The car thief is still one hundred percent guilty.
But you are saying that the victim (you) acted in a stupid way. I thought that wasn't allowed when it came to rape?
  #902  
Old 08-15-2018, 12:16 PM
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But you are saying that the victim (you) acted in a stupid way. I thought that wasn't allowed when it came to rape?
If you want it to be legal to have sex with passed out drunk women, you should petition your Congressman. As it stands, it's not.
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:16 PM
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Just checking in here: y'all realize this a troll, right? I'm not trying to be elitist or anything, but I do want to make sure we're on the same page here, and not getting too invested in this guy.

There is a possibility that someone might come in and bring up this concept legit , but they're not going to do it in this way. This was deliberately provocative without any indication of a good faith effort to discuss the topic. And further responses only confirm this initial suspicion. This is someone who told himself "see those libtards. Bet I can go piss them off. Watch me, bro!"

I could get more specific, but I don't like to help trolls figure out how to hide their trolling better.

I will say that defending convincted rapist Brock Turner is a low that even the alt-right doesn't even try. So go back to your MRA and Incel forums where you can whine about how unfair it is that you can't use alcohol to rape women.
  #904  
Old 08-15-2018, 12:48 PM
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If you want it to be legal to have sex with passed out drunk women, you should petition your Congressman. As it stands, it's not.
I do not see any way that this pertains to what I posted.
  #905  
Old 08-15-2018, 12:51 PM
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Just checking in here: y'all realize this a troll, right? I'm not trying to be elitist or anything, but I do want to make sure we're on the same page here, and not getting too invested in this guy.
Hear what you're saying, but he's actually posted a few non trollolol posts that make me wonder if he isn't just a bitter post middle aged guy* in a loveless relationship** who's now got deep seated rage issues against women.

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Hands down the time travelers (1964.) It had everything a 5-year old needed for his first science fiction movie: the concept of time travel, robots, the first time I learned of hydroponics, the first time I heard of Alpha Centauri, mutation in humans. And Steve Franken as Danny McKee kept everything from looking too dire and frightful.
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Nineteen years, living semi-separated. Could have ended altogether on the second or fifth year.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:39 PM
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But you are saying that the victim (you) acted in a stupid way. I thought that wasn't allowed when it came to rape?
1. Acting in a stupid manner doesn't have anything to do with the blameworthiness of the perpetrator.

2. A lot of what rape victims are said to have been "Stupid" about is either not stupid, or is something women are criticized for that men aren't.

3. Telling the victim of a vicious crime that they acted stupidly is unnecessarily cruel.
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  #907  
Old 08-15-2018, 02:43 PM
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1. Acting in a stupid manner doesn't have anything to do with the blameworthiness of the perpetrator.

2. A lot of what rape victims are said to have been "Stupid" about is either not stupid, or is something women are criticized for that men aren't.

3. Telling the victim of a vicious crime that they acted stupidly is unnecessarily cruel.
I agree with all these. That's why the analogy shouldn't be used. No analogies are necessary actually. Just "The rapist is at fault" said over and over again. Analogies to other crimes seem to bring elements in that don't exist in a rape. That's all I meant.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:43 PM
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Sorry, but last time I checked, the victim has not showed signs of taking some kind of responsibility for what happened, besides thinking her alcohol tolerance was still college-level
The only consequence she should have expected was a hangover.
  #909  
Old 08-15-2018, 03:33 PM
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I do not see any way that this pertains to what I posted.
You are saying that a rape victim being drunk is a righteous point to make. You are mocking the idea that bringing it up is a bad thing. The logical conclusion is that you think raping passed out drunk women is not as bad as raping a sober woman. That's how it pertains to your post.
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:10 PM
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You are saying that a rape victim being drunk is a righteous point to make.
I am? That's news to me. I thought saying the victim of rape did something stupid was not allowed? Are you saying it is?
  #911  
Old 08-15-2018, 06:13 PM
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They took a long time to get to the point but we finally have it: we are cruel. But facts are right there. He's a rapist, she's stupid.
  #912  
Old 08-15-2018, 10:37 PM
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How is this hard to understand? If I meet a girl at a party. She's all over me. She's kissing me. She says, "I want you!" over and over. She's wasted, continues drinking. Then she passes out. If I then, after all of this and her "stupid" behavior, I have sex with her, I raped her. Stupidity or stupid behavior doesn't give another person reason to act stupid too.
  #913  
Old 08-16-2018, 08:46 AM
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He's a rapist, she's stupid.
One is a crime, one is not. I'll wait until you figure out which is which.
  #914  
Old 08-28-2019, 05:56 PM
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In the news today.

Brock Turner Loses Appeal to Overturn Sexual Assault Conviction
  #915  
Old 08-28-2019, 08:54 PM
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Good.
  #916  
Old 09-04-2019, 12:09 PM
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I am late to the party, but since I actually teach a class in supporting survivors and re-thinking prevention, here is my wee input:

1) Tips like "Stay together" is not about rape-prevention, but about risk minimization. Even if, through my actions, I eliminate my own risk of being assaulted in that moment, that offender has not learned that what they were about to do was wrong, and they will still go on to find a more vulnerable target. This has been proven by years and years and years of "prevention" tips that have not done a damn thing to change the number of assaults.

2) The only way to prevent rape/sexual assault is to not rape or assault anyone - that comes through a culture change and re-thinking consent.
  #917  
Old 09-04-2019, 02:13 PM
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2)The only way to prevent rape/sexual assault is to not rape or assault anyone

I've heard that before, and it is a really weird and stupid thing to say.


"The only way to prevent robbery is to not rob anyone."
"The only way to prevent murder is to not murder anyone."
"The only way to prevent tax fraud is to not cheat on your taxes."
"The only way to prevent global warming is to not warm the globe."


Do you not see how trivial that is to say, and how utterly useless it is?
  #918  
Old 09-04-2019, 02:20 PM
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Woman assaulted by Turner publishes a book about it: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/b...&section=Books
  #919  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:42 PM
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The only way to prevent rape/sexual assault is to not rape or assault anyone - that comes through a culture change and re-thinking consent.
I'm not seeing the logic of this. I've never raped or sexually assaulted anyone in my entire lifetime. But obviously, my actions did not prevent rapes and sexual assaults from happening during that period.

It seems almost flippant for somebody to say their contribution to stopping sexual crimes is to not personally commit any - and nothing further. They're just standing by while the problem continues unabated.
  #920  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:44 PM
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The AP has a story about Ms. Miller and her book as well.
  #921  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:23 PM
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It seems almost flippant for somebody to say their contribution to stopping sexual crimes is to not personally commit any - and nothing further.
It is even sillier than that--it is saying that the way to protect yourself is to tell other people to change their behavior: "The way to not have your house robbed is to tell other people not to steal." Well, duh, why didn't I think of that easy and obvious solution--problem solved!
  #922  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:35 PM
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I really think the point is being missed. Unless I'm wrong, I think what Poysyn is saying is that it's not the behavior of rape victims that needs to change, it's the behavior of rapists that needs to change - and that can only take place through cultural change.
  #923  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:39 PM
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Come on, you guys are being obtuse. Common "helpful" tips to prevent rapes are to walk in a group, stay in well-lit areas, or some other action that makes the individual a less desirable target. Look how many comments are made that "she wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't done ___."

But while steps like this might prevent (or more accurately, minimize the chances of) that individual being raped, they aren't particularly useful steps in reducing the occurrence of rape in general. There is always some woman who doesn't have a choice about who she walks with or where.

Poysyn's point was that to truly prevent rapes, you need to take steps that prevent the perpetrator from raping, not the victim from being raped. It does not in any way reduce the importance of steps to minimize risks for an individual, but those steps will not be sufficient by themselves.
  #924  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:58 PM
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I am late to the party, but since I actually teach a class in supporting survivors and re-thinking prevention, here is my wee input:

1) Tips like "Stay together" is not about rape-prevention, but about risk minimization. Even if, through my actions, I eliminate my own risk of being assaulted in that moment, that offender has not learned that what they were about to do was wrong, and they will still go on to find a more vulnerable target. This has been proven by years and years and years of "prevention" tips that have not done a damn thing to change the number of assaults..
This.

Iím tired of people trying to draw all sorts of distinctions between different ďtypesĒ of rape. Itís a violent assault, whether it happens in a dark alley, the living room of your dateís condo, or in a massage room on a private island. Itís not something that normal guys do when they get carried away. Itís just that rapists sometimes act like normal guys in order to create opportunities.

Turner selected a victim that was particularly vulnerable, and some people have actually manage to twist this into a mitigating factor. This is ridiculous, like saying that mugging an old lady is less of a violent crime than mugging a healthy young guy, because you donít have to use as much force.

The was a very interesting article in the Atlantic a few months ago.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...belief/592807/

There are tens of thousands of untested rape kits in police evidence lockers around the country. There is currently a movement to test these kits and possibly get evidence to reopen cases.

Something interesting happened during this project. A lot of rape kits had never been DNA tested because the identity of the rapist was known and undisputed. He was a date or aa acquaintance and there didnít seem to be any reason to run the DNA test. But lots of these samples were tested as part of this movement and it was not a fruitless exercise. The DNA from these known rapists, in many cases, matched up with uncleared stranger rapes and many of these cases were reopened. Because it turns out that rape is rape, not some sort of momentary judgemental lapse. And rapists are rapists.
  #925  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:59 PM
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I really think the point is being missed. Unless I'm wrong, I think what Poysyn is saying is that it's not the behavior of rape victims that needs to change, it's the behavior of rapists that needs to change - and that can only take place through cultural change.
You can say that about every crime, though--and it is just as stupid and polyannaish a thing to say. The day you "teach everyone not to rape" is no closer than the time you "teach" everyone to not commit every other category of crime.You control your behavior, not the behavior of other people.
  #926  
Old 09-04-2019, 05:49 PM
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You can say that about every crime, though--and it is just as stupid and polyannaish a thing to say. The day you "teach everyone not to rape" is no closer than the time you "teach" everyone to not commit every other category of crime.You control your behavior, not the behavior of other people.
Again, that is not the point. "Prevent rapists from raping" was not presented as a solution by itself; it was being used to draw a contrast to the typical advice that addresses only the victims. No one is saying we will stop all rapes by preventing rapists from raping, or that we will be successful in teaching everyone not to rape. This is not a zero-sum game, where we can either teach victims how to minimize their risk, or we can teach people not to rape. We should actually do both.

The fact is that while maybe you can't control what others can do, you certainly can influence it. We can create a culture where "boys will be boys" is not an excuse, where consent is well understood, and where penalties for rape are severe and predictable. These are all actions that address the perpetrators, not the victims.

Really, I don't think this is at all controversial. No one is arguing the point that you seem to be arguing against.
  #927  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:11 PM
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I really think the point is being missed.
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Come on, you guys are being obtuse.
Yes and no.

I think the points that Poysyn meant/tried to make were good ones. Yes, women shouldn't have to live in fear or limit their behavior to keep from being raped. And yes, we need to change whatever attitudes or culture have anyone thinking that any rapes are ever okay or justified or no big deal.

But what Poysyn actually saidó"The only way to prevent rape/sexual assault is to not rape or assault anyone"óstrikes me as silly, for the reasons that Darren Garrison and Little Nemo said.
  #928  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:17 PM
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Sure, it's silly if you interpret it literally. But since it was used as a contrast to common advice and was not meant to be taken literally, it's kind of silly to interpret it that way.

ETA: To be more charitable, it's not silly if it initially struck you that way, because it wasn't 100% clear. But it is silly to continue to argue against that point after it has been explained.

Last edited by TroutMan; 09-04-2019 at 06:19 PM.
  #929  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:24 PM
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I've heard that before, and it is a really weird and stupid thing to say.


"The only way to prevent robbery is to not rob anyone."
"The only way to prevent murder is to not murder anyone."
"The only way to prevent tax fraud is to not cheat on your taxes."
"The only way to prevent global warming is to not warm the globe."


Do you not see how trivial that is to say, and how utterly useless it is?
Jayzus. Rape anybody lately?
  #930  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:46 PM
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Being street smart is everyones responsibility. The only way to live in a street crime free environment is to live is a strong police state where the government commits the crimes.
  #931  
Old 09-04-2019, 07:07 PM
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Being street smart is everyones responsibility. The only way to live in a street crime free environment is to live is a strong police state where the government commits the crimes.
Interesting. Which police states are currently free of rape?
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Old 09-04-2019, 07:27 PM
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Free? Probably none. But in classic police states like the USSR, Maoist China or Nazi Germany rapists wondering around looking for opportunistic rape are going to stand out. The police dont need evidence nor probable cause to detain you.
  #933  
Old 09-04-2019, 07:30 PM
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Free? Probably none. But in classic police states like the USSR, Maoist China or Nazi Germany rapists wondering around looking for opportunistic rape are going to stand out. The police dont need evidence nor probable cause to detain you.
I don't think the bolded part is true or accurate in any way.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 09-04-2019 at 07:30 PM.
  #934  
Old 09-04-2019, 07:46 PM
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The day you "teach everyone not to rape" is no closer than the time you "teach" everyone to not commit every other category of crime.
But the difference is that we're still teaching people that it's in a sense okay to rape, in a way that we're not teaching them it's okay to steal or murder or whatnot. And this is emphasized when we focus so much on changing the behavior of potential rape victims. When we focus rape prevention efforts mostly on the behavior of the victims, we're telling the perpetrators that their own behavior is normal and to be expected.

As I've said before, if we treated robbery the way we treat rape, then guys who complain about having been robbed would be constantly faced with questions like this:
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Originally Posted by Kimstu
"Were you not being alert about the possibility that somebody might try to rob you?"

"Were you wearing a type of clothing that made you look easy to pickpocket or otherwise drew the robber's attention to you?"

"Were you being financially generous or careless in a way that might have caused somebody to believe that you wanted them to have your money?"

"Have you ever lent somebody your ID before? Do you have the reputation of somebody who is willing to share their ID?"

"Were you walking alone somewhere with a high incidence of pickpocketing/robbery, or after dark when pickpockets and robbers are more likely to operate?"

"Did you get drunk and fail to exercise due caution in looking after your wallet?"

"Why didn't you leave your valuables under lock and key in a secure place, carrying only the bare minimum of items you might need securely attached to your body?"

"Why did you choose to engage in this activity when you knew it carried an increased risk of being robbed or pickpocketed?"
We don't ask robbery victims that kind of question, because we don't have a lingering cultural assumption that robbery is "just something guys do" when their potential victims aren't being careful enough.
  #935  
Old 09-04-2019, 09:50 PM
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Poysyn's point was that to truly prevent rapes, you need to take steps that prevent the perpetrator from raping, not the victim from being raped. It does not in any way reduce the importance of steps to minimize risks for an individual, but those steps will not be sufficient by themselves.
I think it would be better to say "The only way to prevent rape/sexual assault is to work on changing society so people will not rape or assault anyone." That drives the point that people need to make a more active effort than just personal non-participation.

It's the difference between saying "I'm going to that college party and I won't take advantage of any girls who have too much to drink" and "I'm going to that college party and I won't stand by if I see anyone trying to take advantage of any girls who have too much to drink." (And the wrong attitude is saying "Girls shouldn't drink because somebody might take advantage of them.")
  #936  
Old 09-05-2019, 01:30 PM
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We don't ask robbery victims that kind of question, because we don't have a lingering cultural assumption that robbery is "just something guys do" when their potential victims aren't being careful enough.
We do. For example, to avoid being pick pocketed or scammed, don't go to areas where it's pervasive, and don't look like a tourist. That example isn't definitive, it is just pretty recent so I remembered seeing it.

Rape absolutely has a victim blaming aspect that is much worse than other personal crimes, and that often extends to excusing the perpetrator. The unfortunately ubiquitous "she was asking for it" compared to "that car was begging to be broken into." One of those is not something that is commonly said. Also take "that isn't a safe place to park" and "those aren't safe people to be drunk with." One of those will get many people all upset as victim blaming, while they'll say the other is just common sense.

Yeah, it would be nice if it was safe to park anywhere, and safe to hang out and get drunk with anybody. Those are goals to work towards, but it is still possible to recognize that avoiding dangerous situations is advisable.

What I'm trying to say is that I think the problem with the attitudes towards rape come after the reasonable statement: "I thought that was a safe place" is something a victim of both crimes might say (rape and getting your car broken into). One of those crimes will get the response, "that's too bad, I've never had a problem there before," and the other "what did you do to lead them on" or some such nonsense.

Or more simply, both things can be true: it isn't the victims fault; examining the victims actions can be educational in avoiding future problems. "Don't leave your laptop in plain view on the front seat" and "those guys have a history of sexual assault, so don't hang out with them, and in fact they should be in prison."
  #937  
Old 09-05-2019, 01:44 PM
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We don't ask robbery victims that kind of question, because we don't have a lingering cultural assumption that robbery is "just something guys do" when their potential victims aren't being careful enough.
Also because sex is something that many, many people want and seek out. Very few people want and seek out robberies, murders, violent assaults, etc.
  #938  
Old 09-05-2019, 02:48 PM
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Also because sex is something that many, many people want and seek out. Very few people want and seek out robberies, murders, violent assaults, etc.
Bull.
In every robbery, there is at least one person who sought it out, the robber. Just like every rape has a rapist.

That most people want sex is a distracting non sequitur.
Every time I leave my house, I have money in my pocket. I anticipate possibly finding something that I want at a store or restaurant. You could say that by constantly carrying money on me, I am 'just asking to be robbed'. That would be considered 'victim blaming, and rightly so.

To say that people want sex does NOT mean they want rape!

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  #939  
Old 09-05-2019, 02:53 PM
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Bull.
In every robbery, there is at least one person who sought it out, the robber. Just like every rape has a rapist.

That most people want sex is a distracting non sequitur.
Every time I leave my house, I have money in my pocket. I anticipate possibly finding something that I want at a store or restaurant. You could say that by constantly carrying money on me, I am 'just asking to be robbed'. That would be considered 'victim blaming, and rightly so.

To say that people want sex does NOT mean they want rape!
Yeah, I know. I didn't say that. Just pointing out another reason the crime gets perceived differently. Very few people want to be robbed, want to be murdered, etc. Lots of people want to have sex. It would be ridiculously implausible for a robber to claim that his victim "wanted" to be robbed; do you disagree?
  #940  
Old 09-05-2019, 03:03 PM
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Yeah, I know. I didn't say that. Just pointing out another reason the crime gets perceived differently. Very few people want to be robbed, want to be murdered, etc. Lots of people want to have sex. It would be ridiculously implausible for a robber to claim that his victim "wanted" to be robbed; do you disagree?
Lots of people want sex. Rapists use force to obtain sex from people who don't want to give it to them.

Lots of people want money. Robbers use force to obtain money from people who don't want to give it to them.

I'm not sure what point you think you're making here, but you're making it extremely poorly.
  #941  
Old 09-05-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by echoreply View Post

Or more simply, both things can be true: it isn't the victims fault; examining the victims actions can be educational in avoiding future problems. "Don't leave your laptop in plain view on the front seat" and "those guys have a history of sexual assault, so don't hang out with them, and in fact they should be in prison."
The problem is that the behaviors labeled as reasonable steps to avoid future problems are established by men, and they are only "reasonable" if you are not being asked to follow them yourself. You're advised not to leave a party and walk across a campus or apartment complex alone, ever, anywhere, because the possibility of rape is too high. You also can't let just anyone escort you, because, again, some guy at the party could be a rapist, too, and letting a rando walk you home is unwise. If a college campus was so dangerous that men were afraid to walk home alone after dark, no one would go there. It would be a total breakdown of law and order.

On this board, every time this comes up, there's a poster who states that women who don't change into street clothes before they leave the gym are "taking a risk" that they compound if they look at their phone or listen to headphones. Can you imagine if a city was so crime-ridden that it wasn't safe for a man to walk from the gym to his car without changing clothes? What sort of post-apocalyptic hellscape would that be?

I would love to see a survey asking "do you avoid walking around your neighborhood after dark because of concerns about safety", divided by gender. And the saddest part is, it's probably not a reasonable level of fear. Most places are safe. Statistically speaking, most rapists are people the victim knows. But growing up with a million men giving you "common sense" advice--which is reinforced by other women who have heard the same thing, makes you afraid and limits your life.
  #942  
Old 09-05-2019, 03:06 PM
Manda JO is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Yeah, I know. I didn't say that. Just pointing out another reason the crime gets perceived differently. Very few people want to be robbed, want to be murdered, etc. Lots of people want to have sex. It would be ridiculously implausible for a robber to claim that his victim "wanted" to be robbed; do you disagree?
Thieves do it all the time. He loaned me that car. He said I could use his credit card.
  #943  
Old 09-05-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
On this board, every time this comes up, there's a poster who states that women who don't change into street clothes before they leave the gym are "taking a risk" that they compound if they look at their phone or listen to headphones. Can you imagine if a city was so crime-ridden that it wasn't safe for a man to walk from the gym to his car without changing clothes? What sort of post-apocalyptic hellscape would that be?
I'm that poster. (btw, I don't bring this up every time). Anyway, I don't see how bringing up the reality we live in is wrong. I'm not saying the situation is right, but it's the world we live in. If a guy walks through a dark parking lot with an appearance like he has a lot of money, he's increasing the odds he'll get robbed. That's a fact. A bum can walk through a dark parking lot with little risk of getting robbed, but a guy in a fancy suit will have more risk. If he leaves his car unlocked with lots of fancy electronics in it, he'll get robbed. The guy in a beater 70's car filled with fast-food wrappers can leave his car anywhere and nothing will ever happen to it. Anyone who says that every person has the same risk of harm regardless of circumstances is completely wrong.

If your daughter went to strange college parties and took drinks from strangers, would you tell her that is a risky behavior? The guy who gives her a spiked drink is a criminal, but aso we have PSAs about not taking drinks from strangers. I would think you can talk about the risks and also talk about ways to change the culture so it's not a risk.
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Old 09-05-2019, 03:49 PM
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Didn't we JUST do this?

Here is the thing, the advice handed out is either patronizing common sense or its life limiting - or both. And we are a little sick of having our lives limited because some men are assholes who can't limit their lives to not play grab ass on the subway or take no for an answer or risk not getting laid tonight, so they spike someone's drink.

Do you lock your doors every time you leave your house. Good. Deadbolt them? Oh, good. At least two deadbolts, right? Yeah, patronizing to tell you this, but we will keep mentioning it every time the crime rate comes up. Robbed anyway? Did you have bars on your windows? Do you live on the first floor? Yeah, I know, second floor isn't convenient and bars are expensive, but that's the price you pay for having stuff. And you should get a big dob. Oh, was it your car? Well, you do have indoor securing parking with cameras, right? In fact, why do you own a car at all, you are just asking for someone to rob it. Oh, you were mugged - you were carrying CASH?! Why were you carrying cash - you shouldn't do that. You need to be hypervigilant at all times.
  #945  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:07 PM
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Didn't we JUST do this?
We did.

And evidence was cited in that thread that people get raped wearing all sorts of clothes; and no evidence was cited that wearing gym clothes outside the gym increases the incidence of rape.

-- People who carry money do so because they intend to spend it. Seems to me that it's possible to make a better claim that anybody who goes out carrying money intends to give it to somebody else than to make a claim that somebody who goes out along with their body intends to hand their body over to somebody else: because it's perfectly possible to go out on the street while not carrying any money. It is, however, impossible to go anywhere (including one's own bedroom) or do anything (including breathing) without one's body.
  #946  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO
You're advised not to leave a party and walk across a campus or apartment complex alone, ever, anywhere, because the possibility of rape is too high. You also can't let just anyone escort you, because, again, some guy at the party could be a rapist, too, and letting a rando walk you home is unwise. [...]

On this board, every time this comes up, there's a poster who states that women who don't change into street clothes before they leave the gym are "taking a risk" that they compound if they look at their phone or listen to headphones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmore View Post
I'm not saying the situation is right, but it's the world we live in. If a guy walks through a dark parking lot with an appearance like he has a lot of money, he's increasing the odds he'll get robbed. That's a fact. A bum can walk through a dark parking lot with little risk of getting robbed, but a guy in a fancy suit will have more risk. If he leaves his car unlocked with lots of fancy electronics in it, he'll get robbed.
As I keep pointing out in these comparisons, though, the skew is in comparing extraordinarily reckless behavior on the part of men with ordinary behavior on the part of women.

Leaving your car unlocked and full of fancy electronics is unusually careless behavior that can be very easily avoided by the simple effortless action of locking your car. Simply being a woman walking from your gym to your car or bus stop in gym clothes is not unusually careless behavior, nor are the workarounds anywhere near as effortless.

Men in general: Please stop trying to justify your advice to women to avoid or fear ordinary reasonable behavior by drawing comparisons with men engaging in exceptionally stupid and/or reckless behavior.

The message you are sending with such comparisons is that merely existing as a woman trying to lead a normal life is as risky and unwise as leaving a car full of fancy electronics unlocked, and therefore counts as foolish and irresponsible behavior on a woman's part.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-05-2019 at 04:09 PM.
  #947  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:09 PM
filmore is offline
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Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
Didn't we JUST do this?

Here is the thing, the advice handed out is either patronizing common sense or its life limiting - or both. And we are a little sick of having our lives limited because some men are assholes who can't limit their lives to not play grab ass on the subway or take no for an answer or risk not getting laid tonight, so they spike someone's drink.

Do you lock your doors every time you leave your house. Good. Deadbolt them? Oh, good. At least two deadbolts, right? Yeah, patronizing to tell you this, but we will keep mentioning it every time the crime rate comes up. Robbed anyway? Did you have bars on your windows? Do you live on the first floor? Yeah, I know, second floor isn't convenient and bars are expensive, but that's the price you pay for having stuff. And you should get a big dob. Oh, was it your car? Well, you do have indoor securing parking with cameras, right? In fact, why do you own a car at all, you are just asking for someone to rob it. Oh, you were mugged - you were carrying CASH?! Why were you carrying cash - you shouldn't do that. You need to be hypervigilant at all times.
Why do we view robberies differently? With the robberies, there are all kinds of signs and PSAs about being vigilant. Parking lots have signs to hide valuables. Every holiday season there are PSAs about locking packages in the trunk. These things are generally seen as helpful and useful to making people safer and less likely to be robbed. If someone leaves their car unlocked, with the keys in it, and packages visible, we have no problem telling they're likely to get their car and packages stolen. But if someone brings up that it's risky to take drinks from strangers or get drunk at parties, it's labeled as patronizing. Why can we talk about ways to minimize risks of being robbed but not ways to minimize risks of sexual assault?

Last edited by filmore; 09-05-2019 at 04:10 PM.
  #948  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:20 PM
Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
If someone leaves their car unlocked, with the keys in it, and packages visible, we have no problem telling they're likely to get their car and packages stolen. But if someone brings up that it's risky to take drinks from strangers or get drunk at parties, it's labeled as patronizing. Why can we talk about ways to minimize risks of being robbed but not ways to minimize risks of sexual assault?
As I mentioned in the post just above, the problem is in the misleading comparisons between easily avoidable especially careless behavior and ordinary reasonable behavior.

Leaving expensive-looking packages visible in an unlocked car with the keys in it is risky behavior that can be avoided with almost no effort. Leading an ordinary existence as a woman, on the other hand, is much more difficult to negotiate if you're supposed to be constantly avoiding perfectly reasonable and normal actions like walking out of your gym in gym clothes or accepting a drink at a friend's party.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-05-2019 at 04:21 PM.
  #949  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:27 PM
Sicks Ate is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
As I keep pointing out in these comparisons, though, the skew is in comparing extraordinarily reckless behavior on the part of men with ordinary behavior on the part of women.

Leaving your car unlocked and full of fancy electronics is unusually careless behavior that can be very easily avoided by the simple effortless action of locking your car. Simply being a woman walking from your gym to your car or bus stop in gym clothes is not unusually careless behavior, nor are the workarounds anywhere near as effortless.

Men in general: Please stop trying to justify your advice to women to avoid or fear ordinary reasonable behavior by drawing comparisons with men engaging in exceptionally stupid and/or reckless behavior.

The message you are sending with such comparisons is that merely existing as a woman trying to lead a normal life is as risky and unwise as leaving a car full of fancy electronics unlocked, and therefore counts as foolish and irresponsible behavior on a woman's part.
Fantastic post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmore View Post
But if someone brings up that it's risky to take drinks from strangers or get drunk at parties, it's labeled as patronizing. Why can we talk about ways to minimize risks of being robbed but not ways to minimize risks of sexual assault?
Because naturally, women only get raped when they take drinks from strangers or get drunk at parties.
  #950  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:41 PM
filmore is offline
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Originally Posted by Sicks Ate View Post
Because naturally, women only get raped when they take drinks from strangers or get drunk at parties.
Do you think taking drinks from strangers and getting drunk at parties carries no additional risk? I think we should be able to discuss that those are risky behaviors *and* that we should change society so that those things aren't risky.

I see signs on my kids college campus about being party safe, with messages about pouring your own drinks, knowing your limit, going with friends, etc. From the way the discussion goes on here, I don't know why the discussions are so contentious. Do the people mad at me think those signs on campuses are unnecessary and patronizing?
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