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  #151  
Old 01-14-2017, 02:23 AM
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No, nothing she had done counted. She got all those points by sacrificing herself to go to the Bad Place in order to save everyone else. The whole dying to save someone else turned up a notch.
Yeah, I had interpereted it as the points effectively being frozen when her motivation was impure, and then being "cashed in" when the motivation changed.

Oh well, pobody's nerfect.
  #152  
Old 01-14-2017, 05:12 AM
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I loved the episode, but, what bugs me, if all those other people are really as good as they are supposed to be, why do they dislike Eleanor and resent the events she caused so much? When they were alive, they dealt with much worse and forgave much worse. So why don't they just get over it? After all, there aren't any real consequences in The Good Place. So you got hit with a turkey leg while you're flying and crash into a wall. You aren't hurt. Tahani's motives aren't pure, either. She was trying to get her parents' love and approval while alive, and even in the afterlife is constantly looking for attention, approval, and applause.

I know, I'm overthinking and nitpicking. I love this show.
  #153  
Old 01-14-2017, 05:19 AM
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I know, I'm overthinking and nitpicking.
I don't think you are. I have a feeling this disconnect will be bought up.
  #154  
Old 01-14-2017, 10:25 AM
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Did I hear right that Mindy lives alone in the neutral zone (aka the medium place)?
That's what I heard as well. I am curious to find out what sort of person Mindy is, because if she's the sole inhabitant of the neutral zone that suggests she's not just average.
  #155  
Old 01-14-2017, 11:42 AM
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That's what I heard as well. I am curious to find out what sort of person Mindy is, because if she's the sole inhabitant of the neutral zone that suggests she's not just average.
Well, maybe she is the only one who is average.
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  #156  
Old 01-14-2017, 12:45 PM
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Well, maybe she is the only one who is average.
I meant "average" in the sense of typical or normal, but you may be right that we'll learn she's the one person who's precisely in the middle of the good/bad scale. It's interesting to think about exactly what that would mean in the moral system presented by The Good Place. Maybe Mindy's actions while alive were all morally neutral so she never gained or lost points, or maybe her good deeds and bad deeds were of equal weight and thus cancelled each other out.
  #157  
Old 01-14-2017, 05:21 PM
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No, nothing she had done counted. She got all those points by sacrificing herself to go to the Bad Place in order to save everyone else. The whole dying to save someone else turned up a notch.
It makes sense that Fake Eleanor would earn way more points for volunteering for The Bad Place than a living person would for "merely" sacrificing their life. After all Fake Eleanor knows exactly what's in store for for the rest of eternity, but is doing it anyway. Pobody on Narth could possibly do the same. Also, we're finally going to see The Medium Place.

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  #158  
Old 01-14-2017, 09:32 PM
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What I don't understand, is why now that Michael knows that Jianyu is Jason, haven't they at least shared the blame of all the mix-ups with him? Or acknowledge that since a least a couple of things have gone wrong, maybe the issues aren't with either Fake Eleanor or Jason, but with Michael?

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  #159  
Old 01-15-2017, 01:43 AM
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Good point. Wasn't Jason most likely the cause of at least one of the disasters? The sinkhole for example.
  #160  
Old 01-15-2017, 03:09 AM
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My absolute favorite bit is the revelation that the real Jianyu is as big an idiot as Jason is.
  #161  
Old 01-19-2017, 08:06 PM
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OK. I didn't see that coming.

This show got so much better as it went along.
  #162  
Old 01-19-2017, 08:26 PM
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Holy mother-forking shirtballs!
  #163  
Old 01-19-2017, 09:25 PM
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I think people in the thread had suggested something like this, but it was a wonderful twist. The show has been a real treat. I don't know if there will be any more episodes, but I realized I'd love to see what happens next.
  #164  
Old 01-19-2017, 10:07 PM
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I thought it was very interesting this evening. Very good ending and/or new beginning. I hope it comes back.

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  #165  
Old 01-19-2017, 10:34 PM
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I was more "Holy motherforking shirtballs!" that it was the season finale. It just came back! I hope they bring it back.
Tonight's episodes were among the best.
  #166  
Old 01-20-2017, 03:22 AM
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That was deeply satisfying. TV twist done right.
  #167  
Old 01-20-2017, 03:26 AM
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Yeah, it always seemed odd that Chidi and Tahani were in the Good Place, for exactly the reasons mentioned.
  #168  
Old 01-20-2017, 05:30 AM
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I'll echo the Holy shirt comment
Did Baba john(?) have a loophole, or just a way to prolong the charade?
Were the bad place folks were in on it also? How about Mindy?

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  #169  
Old 01-20-2017, 08:49 AM
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That was deeply satisfying. TV twist done right.
Yeah. It was perfect. Totally obvious in retrospect but completely surprising at the time. It makes me want to go back and watch the whole thing over again from the beginning.

I hope there is more too!
  #170  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:03 AM
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I was extremely happy with it. It really was a show that was both entertaining and made you think.

The way it ended I would be fine with it being a single season show. Of course, I wouldn't turn down a second season but it's just the right level of cliffhanger to let you wonder without needing a sequel.

It does make you wonder how much of what they saw was real. Is Mindy real, or just another bad place imposter? Is Janet going to become more self-aware? Is Shawn's real boss going to find out what happened and get pissed?

I would *love* for them to explore other neighborhoods, ones that are actually good and bad places. Given that this is supposedly the first time architects have stuck around, it might be interesting to see if some good places are actually hellholes and some bad places have worked out something pretty nice.
  #171  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:06 AM
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So...that was something. I liked it. I would say I'll miss nice Michael but we'll still be getting him it seems (although now we know better). Curious to see where this goes.

One unanswered question: is the Medium Place a real thing or part of the deception?
  #172  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:34 AM
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Quimby - My guess is that the Medium Place was real. Janet was acting off-program when she took them there. The fact that there was only the one person living there makes me think it was exactly as they say - a place without yogurt stands and without fire demons.

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  #173  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:38 AM
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"Celebrity Baby Plastic Surgery Disasters".

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  #174  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:43 AM
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What made this different from other sitcoms was that it told a complete, overarching plot. And that the writers knew where they were going from the beginning. In that way, it was much like Babylon 5 (though less ambitious). I can't think of an American sitcom that has done something like this.
  #175  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:46 AM
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Oh, this was so satisfying...It made all the things that bugged me make sense, and Ted Danson was so good at making the shift from good to evil. Definitely the best show on tv. And, yes, it works both as a series finale or as a cliffhanger for a new season. I'm happy either way.

Oh, the burning lava demon coming into the conference room with a time dispute was very funny. That kind of corporate set up is exactly how I imagine hell to be.
  #176  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:49 AM
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Quimby - My guess is that the Medium Place was real. Janet was acting off-program when she took them there. The fact that there was only the one person living there makes me think it was exactly as they say - a place without yogurt stands and without fire demons.

StG
I think that the medium place was still a variant of Bad Place. Mindy as she presented herself was even worse than Eleanor. I suspect she was another fake resident/demon, and the stolen train gambit was another aspect of the torture. Jason, Chidi, Tahani, and Eleanor were the only former humans. Everyone else was a demon or Janet.
  #177  
Old 01-20-2017, 10:37 AM
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Mindy made no real sense as part of the plot. Janet is the only one who knew about her, apparently, and Janet isn't really part of the Bad Place. It could be that she was just there to put Tahani and Chidi into a jam. (I loved the throwaway bit where Michael is shouting into Bad Janet's mouth to use her as a walkie-talkie. The little background gags are the best part of the show.) But it could be setting up a plotline for next season where they know something that Michael doesn't.

If there is a next season. The latest news I can find says that no decision has been announced.
  #178  
Old 01-20-2017, 11:46 AM
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I think that the medium place was still a variant of Bad Place. Mindy as she presented herself was even worse than Eleanor. I suspect she was another fake resident/demon, and the stolen train gambit was another aspect of the torture. Jason, Chidi, Tahani, and Eleanor were the only former humans. Everyone else was a demon or Janet.
No. Mindy was both worse and far better than Eleanor.

She lived a bad life, but reformed and planned to give her money to charity. She died before it happened, but the money did create a lot of good in the end. So the reason no one could decide was that was she bad -- as evidenced by her life -- or was she good -- as evidenced by her change of heart and the results of that. You could argue either way, depending on your philosophical bent, which makes it understandable they couldn't decide.

But she really had no function in the plot. If she weren't introduced, nothing would have change.
  #179  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:09 PM
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No. Mindy was both worse and far better than Eleanor.

She lived a bad life, but reformed and planned to give her money to charity. She died before it happened, but the money did create a lot of good in the end. So the reason no one could decide was that was she bad -- as evidenced by her life -- or was she good -- as evidenced by her change of heart and the results of that. You could argue either way, depending on your philosophical bent, which makes it understandable they couldn't decide.

But she really had no function in the plot. If she weren't introduced, nothing would have change.
Possibly if the second season (assuming there is one) repeats some of the storylines, Mindy will remember the earlier visit but none of the "Bad Place Four" will. They might even pick up the pace, Groundhog Day style, so that we get multiple iterations within a season and Mindy will be again surprised/naked for the second visit, startled/underweared for the third, then annoyed/dressed for the fourth, etc.
  #180  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:35 PM
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No. Mindy was both worse and far better than Eleanor.

She lived a bad life, but reformed and planned to give her money to charity. She died before it happened, but the money did create a lot of good in the end. So the reason no one could decide was that was she bad -- as evidenced by her life -- or was she good -- as evidenced by her change of heart and the results of that. You could argue either way, depending on your philosophical bent, which makes it understandable they couldn't decide.

But she really had no function in the plot. If she weren't introduced, nothing would have change.
That's assuming that there really is a Good Place involved. Remember, what was presented as the Good Place really is just another neighborhood of the Bad Place. Any info we have on how to get into the Good Place, the points system and all, was given by Michael (and Janet, programmed by Michael/Mike), and is therefore unreliable info.

The way she talked to Eleanor made me think that she didn't have any epiphany of the sort she claimed to have, and so I think she was another creature meant to make Eleanor feel bad about herself. Michael's and Sean's apparent lack of knowledge about where she was was an act to torture Chidi and Tahani .
  #181  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:37 PM
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Possibly if the second season (assuming there is one) repeats some of the storylines, Mindy will remember the earlier visit but none of the "Bad Place Four" will. They might even pick up the pace, Groundhog Day style, so that we get multiple iterations within a season and Mindy will be again surprised/naked for the second visit, startled/underweared for the third, then annoyed/dressed for the fourth, etc.
If Mindy turns out to be a real deceased human and not another demon, that would be fun plotting.
  #182  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:14 PM
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I can't go back and check now, but the scene where Michael kicked a dog into the sun wasn't witnessed by the main 4, was it? If not, what was the in-universe point to that scene?
  #183  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:31 PM
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Did Baba john(?) have a loophole, or just a way to prolong the charade?
The latter, I think. As Eleanor pointed out, Michael and Shawn had no intention of putting anyone on a train to the Bad Place, since they were already in the Bad Place. So if Eleanor didn't figure it out, Michael would have to come up with a way to let them all stay that made enough sense to them that they wouldn't question the decision but wouldn't be absolved of the anxiety, either. I think that's what Baba John was coming in to reveal.
  #184  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:59 PM
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That's assuming that there really is a Good Place involved. Remember, what was presented as the Good Place really is just another neighborhood of the Bad Place. Any info we have on how to get into the Good Place, the points system and all, was given by Michael (and Janet, programmed by Michael/Mike), and is therefore unreliable info.
Even if it's just a cover story, it works as an explanation for why she's there.

It also ties in with the show's ongoing theme of what is moral.

Last edited by RealityChuck; 01-20-2017 at 03:00 PM.
  #185  
Old 01-20-2017, 03:00 PM
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Any info we have on how to get into the Good Place, the points system and all, was given by Michael (and Janet, programmed by Michael/Mike), and is therefore unreliable info.
In one of the Bad Place meetings, Mike said "I even stole a Good Place Janet we can use", to fool the four test subjects into thinking they were in the Good Place. Since he was talking only to other Bad Place Managers/Architects at the time, I think it's fairly assumed true.

If it turns out to be not true, then that'll be a mark against the show, because if we the audience can trust literally none of the information presented, the show is pointless.
  #186  
Old 01-20-2017, 04:39 PM
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In one of the Bad Place meetings, Mike said "I even stole a Good Place Janet we can use", to fool the four test subjects into thinking they were in the Good Place. Since he was talking only to other Bad Place Managers/Architects at the time, I think it's fairly assumed true.

If it turns out to be not true, then that'll be a mark against the show, because if we the audience can trust literally none of the information presented, the show is pointless.
My assumption is that the system is real, but that it's not quite as difficult to get into the Good Place as Michael makes it out.
  #187  
Old 01-20-2017, 04:49 PM
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I have this idea of future seasons turning into a sort of Mission Impossible/Columbo mashup, where Michael keeps coming up with strange fake situations that seem real, the test subjects eventually figure everything out, and we the audience enjoy seeing how they figure out the clues along the way.

All we need is for Eleanor to peel off her face and turn out to be Martin Landau.
  #188  
Old 01-20-2017, 05:03 PM
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Did anyone else think that Michael's workplace seems sort of like a Bad Place? Straight desks, not even cubicles, a kid for a boss, coffee (or anti-matter) that always tastes wrong. In meetings with 14 million point plans. Michael's stuck in the Bad Place, too!

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  #189  
Old 01-20-2017, 06:32 PM
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I will not soon forget Ted Danson's evil smile and chuckle at the reveal. What a fantastic (and fantastically acted) moment.
  #190  
Old 01-20-2017, 07:32 PM
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Yeah, that was a forking mind screw.

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In one of the Bad Place meetings, Mike said "I even stole a Good Place Janet we can use", to fool the four test subjects into thinking they were in the Good Place. Since he was talking only to other Bad Place Managers/Architects at the time, I think it's fairly assumed true...
Agreed. Which means there really Good Places. I'm going to assume Mindy St. Clair was real as well since Janet's real, and thus wouldn't be in on the deception. Speaking of the Medium Place; did anyone else notice that was the Bad Place was represented by Trevor in the orientation video, the Good Place was represented by a character we've never seen before?
  #191  
Old 01-20-2017, 08:58 PM
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Agreed. Which means there really Good Places. I'm going to assume Mindy St. Clair was real as well since Janet's real
Still, Janet did identify the location as the Good Place several times, didn't she? Her programming must have been altered, or at least her inputs, since she seems to "think" she's in a Good Place neighborhood.

I'm guessing that if you go over the previous episodes minutely, there will be inconsistencies in the behaviour of Janet and Michael (and indeed any character other than the four [plus Mindy?] since they all seem to have been in on the joke), but as long as its not a total mindfuck (i.e. if we learn that one or more of the four test subjects is a fake), I'm willing to stick with the show. They could probably get a lot of humour out of this premise - Micheal trying to find a self-sustaining four-way torture circle, and it gradually spinning out of control each time, the characters getting mind-wiped but leaving clues for themselves and gradually figuring out the nature of their reality... it could turn into a much lighter-toned version of WestWorld.

Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 01-20-2017 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 01-20-2017, 10:58 PM
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I had sorta thought that all those people werent so great and maybe it was Hell, but then Ted Danson fooled me.
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Old 01-21-2017, 01:38 AM
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Now that Janet's been rebooted, I wonder what she'll learn this time around. Does she learn how to get angry? Does she learn about autonomy and starts resenting being at the beck and call of an architect? Does she learn how to retrieve old memories that were supposed to have been wiped away?

Last edited by Scribble; 01-21-2017 at 01:39 AM.
  #194  
Old 01-21-2017, 01:47 AM
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Yeah, that was a forking mind screw.



Agreed. Which means there really Good Places. I'm going to assume Mindy St. Clair was real as well since Janet's real, and thus wouldn't be in on the deception. Speaking of the Medium Place; did anyone else notice that was the Bad Place was represented by Trevor in the orientation video, the Good Place was represented by a character we've never seen before?
We already knew this was Michael's first neighbourhood, Shawn is (thought to be at this point) impartial. We've never met any other ostensible Good Place adminsistrators, so the GP advocate in the video would have to be someone we've never met.

Mindy St. Claire being alone doesn't make much sense, if we assume she's on the level. There would have to be thousands baddish people who died after putting into motion something that did tremendous good.
  #195  
Old 01-21-2017, 03:09 AM
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Shawn is (thought to be at this point) impartial.
Shawn is an agent of the bad place. He dropped the act in private with Michael, complaining about having to wear a goofy judge's robe.
  #196  
Old 01-21-2017, 03:19 AM
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Hence the (thought to be at this point) bracket
  #197  
Old 01-21-2017, 09:15 AM
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Still, Janet did identify the location as the Good Place several times, didn't she? Her programming must have been altered, or at least her inputs, since she seems to "think" she's in a Good Place neighborhood.
She's a Good Janet - so her default programming would be that any place she is is by definition a Good Place. If one of our four asked her to investigate if they are really in a Good Place, she might be able to figure it out - but there is no reason for that to happen. Note that they rebooted Janet, so she presumably has no memory of Eleanor's insight.
  #198  
Old 01-21-2017, 09:26 AM
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Well, that was a heck of a twist. I do not see how they can go on after that.

Is a new season scheduled or what?
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  #199  
Old 01-21-2017, 09:55 AM
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I had sorta thought that all those people werent so great and maybe it was Hell, but then Ted Danson fooled me.
Yeah, I had thought that perhaps all of the four main human characters didn't really belong in the Good Place, and that the Good Place could be a kind of hell if you didn't belong there (I think I mentioned upthread that Tahani's idea of hell probably was being constantly surrounded by people who were objectively better than her), and that there was something important about the Bad Place that was being hidden from us...but I had taken Michael at face value and was genuinely surprised when everything turned out to be part of his scheme to torment the main characters.
  #200  
Old 01-21-2017, 10:39 AM
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Real Fake Eleanor spoiled Michael's plan because she figured out the scheme before 1000 years were up.

But what if she didn't? What if she and Chidi both volunteered for the Bad Place as he expected? Wouldn't that have ruined the plan just as thoroughly? What was he planning to do in that case?
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