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  #101  
Old 04-13-2019, 10:50 AM
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Quoth RikWriter:

To who? Not to a lot of people.
To me, of course. Also incidentally to the friend I went to see it with. And I was rather surprised when I learned that few people agreed with me.
  #102  
Old 04-13-2019, 11:07 AM
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Remember, Chronos. It did $620 million domestic. Itís #4 all time in Science Fiction Action. It did $1.3B worldwide.

Thereís this perception that it was somehow unpopular. Thatís nonsense. Anytime I see someone say Ďa lot of peopleí I know itís pretty likely that be an unrepresentative sample.

Itís like an old assistant of mine in 2012 who told me she knew Obama wouldnít win re-election because no one she knew was going to vote for him. Of course she didnít; she was an upper middle class white woman from South Carolina. Itís likely she didnít actually know anyone who would vote for him. She was still wrong then.

Itís a noisy batch of fanboys badmouthing it. But it did something new and both critics - with their reviews - and the audience - with their dollars - rewarded it. Donít be deceived by a noisy minority.
  #103  
Old 04-13-2019, 12:23 PM
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Remember, Chronos. It did $620 million domestic. It’s #4 all time in Science Fiction Action. It did $1.3B worldwide.

There’s this perception that it was somehow unpopular. That’s nonsense. Anytime I see someone say ‘a lot of people’ I know it’s pretty likely that be an unrepresentative sample.

It’s like an old assistant of mine in 2012 who told me she knew Obama wouldn’t win re-election because no one she knew was going to vote for him. Of course she didn’t; she was an upper middle class white woman from South Carolina. It’s likely she didn’t actually know anyone who would vote for him. She was still wrong then.

It’s a noisy batch of fanboys badmouthing it. But it did something new and both critics - with their reviews - and the audience - with their dollars - rewarded it. Don’t be deceived by a noisy minority.
A lot of people attribute the failure of Solo (400m total gross) to people hating TLJ instead of the fact that it released sandwiched in a one week window between Infinity War and Deathpool 2.

Last edited by DigitalC; 04-13-2019 at 12:23 PM.
  #104  
Old 04-13-2019, 12:29 PM
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No, you seem determined to say that not getting what you wanted is a fair criticism of the movie. It's not.
Has nothing to do with what I want and everything to do with actually taking a chance. I would have been okay with any ending that actually took a chance. That's one example that wouldn't have required any other major changes to the plot and wouldn't have deprived us of anything significant. There are many other ways it could have happened that would have been infinitely better than what we got.
The movie was bloated, the plot was murky, the whole section at Canto Bight was a waste of time and added absolutely nothing. Pacing was horrid and sections of the movie dragged. You can keep trying to defend that, but saying "that's not a valid criticism" isn't going to convince me.
  #105  
Old 04-13-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
To me, of course. Also incidentally to the friend I went to see it with. And I was rather surprised when I learned that few people agreed with me.
Well, I am in an online community with a lot of science fiction writers (thousands, but I've only personally communicated with hundreds and met dozens of them face to face at conferences) and it isn't unanimous of course, but it is somewhere around 2/3 who think the movie stank. It has nothing to do with politics or "social justice" or any of that shit as they run the gamut from anarcho-libertarians to self-proclaimed socialists. It has to do with plotting, pacing and character building.

I also have a circle of friends locally who I discuss movies with and none of them liked it, but that might be skewed because we've hung around together for so long, our tastes may just be aligned particularly.

The only person in my local area I've met who even halfway liked it was my son's ex-girlfriend and even she was kind of blah on it.
  #106  
Old 04-13-2019, 12:55 PM
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Well, I am in an online community with a lot of science fiction writers (thousands, but I've only personally communicated with hundreds and met dozens of them face to face at conferences) and it isn't unanimous of course, but it is somewhere around 2/3 who think the movie stank. It has nothing to do with politics or "social justice" or any of that shit as they run the gamut from anarcho-libertarians to self-proclaimed socialists. It has to do with plotting, pacing and character building.



I also have a circle of friends locally who I discuss movies with and none of them liked it, but that might be skewed because we've hung around together for so long, our tastes may just be aligned particularly.



The only person in my local area I've met who even halfway liked it was my son's ex-girlfriend and even she was kind of blah on it.
Your opinion is your own, and fine to have, but it's no better or more "legitimate" than that of those of us who loved it.
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  #107  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:00 PM
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Your opinion is your own, and fine to have, but it's no better or more "legitimate" than that of those of us who loved it.
Nonsense. He's citing a bunch of authorities--thousand of writers on an unnamed board--who agree with him, so he's gotta be right! Forget all the published reviews that we can actually cite. That unnamed community trumps them all.
  #108  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:03 PM
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The only valid criticisms i can take seriously are the ones that don't equally apply to the original trilogy, and they are few and far between.
  #109  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:06 PM
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Nonsense. He's citing a bunch of authorities--thousand of writers on an unnamed board--who agree with him, so he's gotta be right! Forget all the published reviews that we can actually cite. That unnamed community trumps them all.
No stop trying to be the victim. It doesn't suit you. I was responding to someone who said they were surprised other people didn't like the movie. I was telling my experience. If it doesn't match yours, well, that's the point, isn't it?
  #110  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:11 PM
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I'ma name some authors instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Dickinson
There was a sort of David Lynch-ian scene where Rey goes down into this ‘dark side hole’ and encounters a mirror that turns her into a causal string of herself in the past and the future . . . I thought that scene was fantastic. It wasn’t a pastiche of any other mystical vision. I wanted Rey to have three more of those scenes.
(Dickinson wrote The Traitor Baru Cormorant, one of the most accomplished fantasy novels of the past five years IMO).
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barr Khirtley
This is arguably my favorite Star Wars movie. . . it has the most moral complexity of any of the movies, it has the most surprises of any of the movies, and is the most intellectual and self-aware, and gives you the most to think about afterward.
From other sources:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NK Jemisin
[A] bigass chunk of SW fandom suddenly realized these recent films are pro-democracy, pro-resistance, & anti-fascist... and that the bad guys ain't gonna win.
...
This one [film] actually remembers what the series is supposed to be about.
Froma long and nuanced review, the bottom line:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scalzi
In terms of ranking The Last Jedi, I’d tie it with Rogue One, which puts it above Return of the Jedi and every one of the prequel films. It’s, again, solid, fun and points toward a new direction for the Star Wars universe. I enjoyed it!
I'm sure RikWriter's unnamed forum has some crankypants authors who didn't like it, but when I googled "Science Fiction Authors Review The Last Jedi," I got authors who really did like it, and then when I looked for specific excellent authors, I got more praise for it.

Edit: "Stop trying to be the victim"? What the what? That's bordering on word salad. You may as well contempuously tell me to stop juggling the Weimeraner for all the relevance of the comment.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 04-13-2019 at 01:13 PM.
  #111  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:33 PM
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Name all the authors you want. The point was, there is a sizable amount of people who don't like it. It's not just a tiny minority as some here have claimed. It's NOT universally liked, no matter how much you want to convince yourself it is. You KNOW that was the point. it was obvious. You're ignoring it because you don't want to accept it. Sorry.
  #112  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:35 PM
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Name all the authors you want. The point was, there is a sizable amount of people who don't like it. It's not just a tiny minority as some here have claimed. It's NOT universally liked, no matter how much you want to convince yourself it is. You KNOW that was the point. it was obvious. You're ignoring it because you don't want to accept it. Sorry.
Who has argued that it's "universally liked"?
  #113  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:36 PM
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I couldn't find any comments by any other Hugo nominees from last year, but in looking around, I'm finding a few other quotes by published SF authors:

Simon Jones:
Quote:
In the case of The Last Jedi, if there’s a fault to be perceived (and I’d argue there isn’t – the film’s deconstruction of familiar Star Wars tropes is what I liked about it) it isn’t with director Rian Johnson, but with all the previous Star Wars films, which never took their world building seriously enough. Star Wars has tended to think that making things dirty is all you need to do when building a science fiction setting.
Award-winner and HBO-series-head Nnedi Okorafor: --well, you kinda gotta see it yourself, it's a meme.
  #114  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:38 PM
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Name all the authors you want. The point was, there is a sizable amount of people who don't like it. It's not just a tiny minority as some here have claimed.
Do you mind quoting just a single person whom you've interpreted as making this claim? Just one.
Quote:
It's NOT universally liked, no matter how much you want to convince yourself it is. You KNOW that was the point. it was obvious. You're ignoring it because you don't want to accept it. Sorry.
I accept your apology, but since you're apologizing for some bonkers thing I didn't say, can I accept it instead as an apology for your suggestion that roughly 2/3 of science fiction authors didn't like it?

I mean, I know that's not precisely what you said, but that sure was your implication.

Of course I know it's not universally liked. That's an entirely different point, and one that I'll concede, in the same way that I'll concede that water is wet.

But your attempt to buttress your criticisms of the movie by trying to place the bulk of published SF authors on your side is absurd. Apology accepted.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 04-13-2019 at 01:40 PM.
  #115  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:47 PM
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Name all the authors you want. The point was, there is a sizable amount of people who don't like it. It's not just a tiny minority as some here have claimed. It's NOT universally liked, no matter how much you want to convince yourself it is. You KNOW that was the point. it was obvious. You're ignoring it because you don't want to accept it. Sorry.
There is certainly a lot of mindless hate desperately trying to cling to ridiculous reasons thrown at this movie.
  #116  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:47 PM
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I mean, I know that's not precisely what you said, but that sure was your implication.
No, that wasn't the implication either. But good try. You keep going, maybe someday you'll stumble upon it.
And as for the quote I believe someone said very recently something to the effect of how it was "unambiguously clear that The Last Jedi was better than The Force Awakens."
  #117  
Old 04-13-2019, 02:19 PM
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No, that wasn't the implication either. But good try. You keep going, maybe someday you'll stumble upon it.
And as for the quote I believe someone said very recently something to the effect of how it was "unambiguously clear that The Last Jedi was better than The Force Awakens."
Please. Chronos posted "And I thought that it was unambiguously clear...."

Your truncation of the quote changes its meaning.
  #118  
Old 04-13-2019, 04:23 PM
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TLJ was terrible because it left plot holes in the saga that a star cruiser couldn’t cross, not because they were “taking it in a new direction”. Abandoning the Sith And Jedi cults and replacing it with individual force users on varying scales of light-dark referenced by Rey-Ren with their great chemistry and their frenemy status would be a welcome and believable change. That evolution had a sloppy transition.
  #119  
Old 04-13-2019, 07:01 PM
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I don't really care what anyone else thinks. I loved The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, and I'm pretty sure I'll love this too. I also loved Rogue One and liked Solo a lot. I'm looking forward to any Star Wars whatsoever in the future, including Rian Johnson's trilogy.

I say this as someone who was so obsessed with the original Star Wars (ok, A New Hope, if I must) that I saw it over 100 times on the big screen (counting both theaters and Drive-Ins) when it was originally released. I even met Mark Hamill (with stars in my eyes) and gave him a present. It was a book about comic books that he probably already had, but he was sweet, kind, and gracious, and gave me a hug. *swoon*
  #120  
Old 04-13-2019, 07:50 PM
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The movie was bloated, the plot was murky, the whole section at Canto Bight was a waste of time and added absolutely nothing. Pacing was horrid and sections of the movie dragged.
These are good arguments. I support these arguments, even if I disagreed (and in this case I do not disagree - I loved the movie despite them). But these are not what you listed earlier as your reasons why you didn't like it. You originally listed what you hoped for and expected and didn't get, not what was actually on screen.
  #121  
Old 04-13-2019, 09:19 PM
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I remain surprised that Kathy Kennedy and others at Disney approved a script that had:

- Luke die before Episode IX
- Snoke killed quickly
- The reveal of Rey's parentage(assuming its true)
- No light-saber battle

I liked TLJ, though I do feel that Force Awakens is the far superior movie. I have a lot of fond moments about Ep. VII, but Ep. VIII just kind of sits there for me.

I am optimistic about Episode IX, though. We'll see what they come up with.
  #122  
Old 04-14-2019, 08:13 AM
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Huh...I guess technically that throne room fight was not a lightsaber battle, but it was damn near the same thing and pretty awesome to boot.
  #123  
Old 04-14-2019, 09:10 AM
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Huh...I guess technically that throne room fight was not a lightsaber battle, but it was damn near the same thing and pretty awesome to boot.
The Imperial Guard or whoever those schmokes were, they used zappyswords, right? I'm not gonna split hairs over whether the zappyswords they used were official lightsabers or an off-brand knockoff. Lightsaber battles are cool because people hop around and bang glowy sticks together, not because they use Officially Licensed Lightsaber Brand glowy sticks.
  #124  
Old 04-14-2019, 10:21 AM
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The reveal of Rey's parentage was one of those things I mentioned that Abrams forced on Episod VIII. Either she's a Skywalker, or she isn't. Either way, it's bound to come up when she meets other Skywalkers. Abrams was able to keep it hanging for one film, but there wasn't any possible way to keep it hanging for a second, that starts with her meeting Luke.

And I thought, past tense, that it was unambiguously better than VII. I still think it's better, but it's clear that it's not unambiguously so.

Moving back on to the topic of Episode IX and the recently-released trailer, does anyone else get the feeling that that opening scene with her lightsabring a TIE fighter is going to turn out to be some sort of self-discovery Force-vision sequence, like Luke fighting "Vader" on Dagobah?
  #125  
Old 04-14-2019, 10:29 AM
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Moving back on to the topic of Episode IX and the recently-released trailer, does anyone else get the feeling that that opening scene with her lightsabring a TIE fighter is going to turn out to be some sort of self-discovery Force-vision sequence, like Luke fighting "Vader" on Dagobah?
I thought we already had that with the infinite-Rey sequence where she faced herself in the search for her parentage.
  #126  
Old 04-14-2019, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Moving back on to the topic of Episode IX and the recently-released trailer, does anyone else get the feeling that that opening scene with her lightsabring a TIE fighter is going to turn out to be some sort of self-discovery Force-vision sequence, like Luke fighting "Vader" on Dagobah?
I thought it was some sort of training exercise given than she gets in the "starting order" runner pose before taking off.
  #127  
Old 04-14-2019, 12:33 PM
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I don't know why, but I can not stop giggling at this video from Redlettermedia:

No One's Ever Really Gone
  #128  
Old 04-14-2019, 12:37 PM
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Note: watching the above goofy video gives me a prediction.

We will see
- Liam Neeson
- Ewan McGregor
- Hayden Christensen
- other Jedi ghosts

In some kind of cool "help the hero" type thing. It'd be a great way to unify all the previous movies and I don't think JJ can resist using everyone he can get.
  #129  
Old 04-14-2019, 01:33 PM
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Note: watching the above goofy video gives me a prediction.

We will see
- Liam Neeson
- Ewan McGregor
- Hayden Christensen
- other Jedi ghosts

In some kind of cool "help the hero" type thing. It'd be a great way to unify all the previous movies and I don't think JJ can resist using everyone he can get.
Now I'm picturing a Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire scene, with all the Force ghosts flying out of Rey's lightsaber to tackle the Emperor Force ghost.

Last edited by TroutMan; 04-14-2019 at 01:34 PM.
  #130  
Old 04-14-2019, 01:56 PM
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Now I'm picturing a Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire scene, with all the Force ghosts flying out of Rey's lightsaber to tackle the Emperor Force ghost.
"We can only hold him for a little while, Rey. Do it now! Go!!!"

:Rey charges at ghost-Palpatine:
  #131  
Old 04-14-2019, 03:28 PM
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Note: watching the above goofy video gives me a prediction.

We will see
- Liam Neeson
- Ewan McGregor
- Hayden Christensen
- other Jedi ghosts

In some kind of cool "help the hero" type thing. It'd be a great way to unify all the previous movies and I don't think JJ can resist using everyone he can get.
No Alec Guinness or Christopher Lee? Actors that are dead don't seem to be an issue lately.
  #132  
Old 04-14-2019, 07:53 PM
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"We can only hold him for a little while, Rey. Do it now! Go!!!"

:Rey charges at ghost-Palpatine:
"He slimed me"
  #133  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:56 AM
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Moving back on to the topic of Episode IX and the recently-released trailer, does anyone else get the feeling that that opening scene with her lightsabring a TIE fighter is going to turn out to be some sort of self-discovery Force-vision sequence, like Luke fighting "Vader" on Dagobah?
Maybe it'll end up on the cutting room floor like the "facing down a TIE fighter" scene in the Rogue One trailer!
  #134  
Old 04-15-2019, 09:01 AM
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Just coming here to restate what the Nerdist pointed out: The title is in purple, aka Sith-Red plus Jedi-Blue. I know Jedi are multicolored, but in the new trilogy they consistently use the original blue lightsaber. And it would be a terrible idea to make a cult of Skywalkers, but that's just me.
This whole thing for me is just an exercise in how bad planning can ruin storytelling. I didn't like VII or VIII very much, but baffling is the combination of both and the lack of oversight. I don't care if they switch Directors three times in the movie - someone like Kennedy needs to have the boss-hat and realise "This does not a make a coherent Story, cut it out. Here is our overall plan."
  #135  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:06 AM
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Just coming here to restate what the Nerdist pointed out: The title is in purple, aka Sith-Red plus Jedi-Blue. I know Jedi are multicolored, but in the new trilogy they consistently use the original blue lightsaber. And it would be a terrible idea to make a cult of Skywalkers, but that's just me.
This whole thing for me is just an exercise in how bad planning can ruin storytelling. I didn't like VII or VIII very much, but baffling is the combination of both and the lack of oversight. I don't care if they switch Directors three times in the movie - someone like Kennedy needs to have the boss-hat and realise "This does not a make a coherent Story, cut it out. Here is our overall plan."
Yeah. Rian really left Abrams in a hole. It scans more like an old 80's comicbook mini-series where each issue was helmed by a different author. The preceding author would end his issue with an outrageous cliffhanger and next author had to figure his way out of it.

I'd have been fine with the last movie being split in two, to give the series more time to breathe.
  #136  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:10 AM
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Critics gave TLJ a 91% on Rotten Tomatoes.
And it has an audience score of 44%
Compare that to The Force Awakens: 92% critics, 87% audience

Quote:
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It did $620 million domestic. It’s #4 all time in Science Fiction Action. It did $1.3B worldwide.
The Force Awakens did $936 million domestic and $2.1B worldwide #1 all time in Sci-Fi adventure.
  #137  
Old 04-22-2019, 01:35 PM
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Just coming here to restate what the Nerdist pointed out: The title is in purple, aka Sith-Red plus Jedi-Blue.
That can only mean one thing.... anyone know what Sam Jackson's been up to for the past year?
  #138  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:27 PM
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Kylo Ren reacts to the teaser trailer
  #139  
Old 08-26-2019, 09:42 AM
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D23 trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n1T3HxHd7Y

Is "dark Rey" a vision?

Brian
  #140  
Old 08-26-2019, 03:16 PM
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I think it's a fake-out, same as the "evil Luke" moments from the trailers of Eps VII and VIII. No way that Rey goes for a Darth Maul knock-off flip-phone lightsaber.
  #141  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:38 PM
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Though a vision might be possible, there's an argument that a whole new light sabre would be an unlikely inclusion. Some think this is part of the transition to the Not-Jedi Not-Sith evolution that may or may not be called Sky Walkers.
  #142  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:43 PM
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Is "dark Rey" a vision?
Evil Emperor: You are and have only ever been....another clone. Yes, we cloned a young Padawan girl years ago, long before Order 66. We lost you, but did you know....there are others?

:in walks Evil clone rey:

:Emperor laughs:

Emperor: You may not turn, but she did!

:Evil Rey Clone lights up light saber:

:Rey fights her own clone:
  #143  
Old 08-27-2019, 12:48 AM
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It's sad that SJWs had to take over and use these films for virtue signalling.
  #144  
Old 08-27-2019, 02:33 AM
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Most probably a Vision - I just cannot imagine that after a Trailer of "Forgive us, we still do Star Wars" and JJ's History of "I redo New Hope, almost shot by shot", the would go for an actual Twist. Even though a double blad would make sense for Rey, what with a staff being her weapon of choice before. But the flip design... I mean, why in the Force would you ever do this? It is super awkward to handle as Long as it is flipped shut, with the twin handles and everything.
Enough negativity - the new shots look nice, the Sea Battle has an awesome backdrop. The rebel fleet arriving is cool, even though the rows and rows of Star Destroyers is, I don't know, almost boring. Is that village we see supposed to be a Rebel Base?
  #145  
Old 08-27-2019, 04:28 AM
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It's sad that SJWs had to take over and use these films for virtue signalling.
Ha! Good one.
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  #146  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:10 AM
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It's sad that SJWs had to take over and use these films for virtue signalling.
Virtue signalling? Don't remember seeing anything like that in the last couple movies.
  #147  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:47 AM
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It's even sadder that some folks have decided that social justice is a bad thing.
  #148  
Old 08-27-2019, 07:56 AM
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Though a vision might be possible, there's an argument that a whole new light sabre would be an unlikely inclusion.
It's not a new design. It's appeared in Rebels used by the Jedi Temple Guard
  #149  
Old 08-27-2019, 08:08 AM
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And it's great for cracking walnuts.
  #150  
Old 08-27-2019, 03:05 PM
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I was thinking lobster...
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