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  #151  
Old 07-23-2019, 10:03 PM
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[shrug]Oh dear Australia's selections 17-201 in a single day. [/shrug]
105 all out off 42.5 overs and 96/7 off 36.4.

It probably reflects more that the batsmen know this is mainly for show, that Langer has already made up his mind for his top 6 while there is at least one bowling spot up for the taking.

The women bat out a dour draw over four days.
You wouldn't trust these roosters to bat out 50 overs.

Who said there was only room in the calendar for 5 Tests? At this rate we could play 10 two day Tests and win the Ashes 5-4 with one drawn.

Last edited by penultima thule; 07-23-2019 at 10:03 PM.
  #152  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:04 AM
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Business as usual for England at Lords, 3 down within an hour. Great bowling from the Irish, making the most of good conditions.
  #153  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:11 AM
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Ireland might wind up giving England a bit of a scare. The team is a mix of first and second string, the top 3 aren't secure and Ireland have Tim Murtagh, who plays for Middlesex, knows Lord's like the back of his hand as a result, and takes his wickets in the CC at a very low average. He's your classic 80 mph at best seamer, the likes of which tend to do well in English conditions. A potential banana skin for the batsmen, but you'd think that England should have too much firepower with the ball for an Irish batting unit that will need to play fairly far above itself to put up a big score. Ireland will want to make it a low scoring shootout, I imagine.
I think it's probably not the done thing to quote oneself but this was predictable. England's bowlers are going to have to really come to the party.

42/6 currently.

Last edited by Cumbrian; 07-24-2019 at 06:12 AM.
  #154  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:35 AM
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7 now.
58/7.
Quick, someone take Cumbrians blood pressure....
  #155  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:39 AM
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Pretty calm to be honest. As I've said, predictable. Plus I went through 8 hours of torture a week last Sunday; this just elicits a sigh.

Murtagh getting on the Lord's honours board is a great. He's had to hang in until the very tail end of his career to get to play Test match cricket and he's made it count. For a real county cricket stalwart I think that's great - really pleased for him.

Given what happened in the opening innings of the Haddin/Hick game, The Ashes could be two one legged men in an arse kicking contest.
  #156  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:43 AM
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Would Geof Boycott or Brian Close be still available for selection?
  #157  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:51 AM
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Why didn’t England steal call up Murtagh 12 years ago?
Could have used him then.
  #158  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:52 AM
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This is the new Test cricket in England - 2-day matches, with 3 reserve days in case of rain.
  #159  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:58 AM
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This is one way of cementing the legacy of the World Cup in generating interest in cricket amongst kids. Morgan as captain of the World Cup winners, Ireland defenestrating England at Lord's - we'll have kids picking up bat and ball all over the Emerald Isle.
  #160  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:02 AM
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9-77 with 10 and Jack at the crease.
Words fail me
  #161  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:04 AM
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Surely, Stone will be the first debutant to top score batting at 10 if he can get a few more.
  #162  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:06 AM
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Why didnít England steal call up Murtagh 12 years ago?
Could have used him then.
Just picking up on this bit of snark. Murtagh is, in point of fact, English. He was born in London.
  #163  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:14 AM
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85 all out.

England can really back this up by bowling short and not threatening the stumps or the line that will carry to the slip cordon. I definitely back Broad in particular to have learned nothing from Murtagh's spell.
  #164  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:22 AM
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If you are right, I wonder if I can get a price about the first ball England bowls being ridiculously short and going for 5 wides over the keeper's head?
  #165  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:47 AM
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Just picking up on this bit of snark. Murtagh is, in point of fact, English. He was born in London.
Did Jack Charlton take over Cricket Ireland?
  #166  
Old 07-24-2019, 02:10 PM
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Took me quite a while to figure out what had happened waking up to that scoreline. Weirdly the Google match predictor still has England as massive favourites to win.
  #167  
Old 07-25-2019, 03:17 AM
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Yes, the live betting odds yesterday still had them at odds on all the way through, obviously reducing the more Ireland scored. But even when it was clear that Ireland weren't going to suffer the same sort of collapse, they could be had at 9/4 for the win. Wish I'd put a big bet on, to be honest. Since I didn't, hopefully England can make a better fist of it this time, maybe even set a challenging target. I wonder what Leach's strategy will be this morning - hit out or get out? Or try to hang around as long as possible to take the shine off the new ball?
  #168  
Old 07-25-2019, 04:21 AM
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Loved and bought the T-shirts following the 2015 Trent Bridge debacle.

Thought it only fair and reasonable to propose the equivalent design:

...1.3|....21nb.|.1.W...|....13|....1.|..44..|.1..1.|.4...4|2.....|..1w.2W.|
...W..|.2.4lb.W|...W.W|......|1W....|1nb44.3.1|.....2|......|...W12|.1lb1.13|
W.1..1|..44.4|......|..4W

Printed in orange type on emerald green.
  #169  
Old 07-25-2019, 10:19 AM
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And now from 171-1 to 194-5 in the second innings.
  #170  
Old 07-26-2019, 12:04 AM
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Over in the CWC2019 thread it was remarked that the ENG ODI team was the first to try to play T20 cricket over 50 overs.
Based on that strategy they compiled a phenomenal 75% win rate over the past 4 years.

What I wasn't aware that the 1st innings vs Ireland was the fourth time in that same period the Test line-up has been bowled out in under a session.
You can see when the ODI selections were practicing the "go for broke" strategy.
  #171  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:15 AM
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Never in doubt.

Ahem.

All the usual failings present and correct. All the usual successes too (i.e batting from sources that should be down the order and an ability to exploit home conditions and the red Duke's ball). Thing is, I think Australia's bowling line up is more likely to skittle us than we are to skittle them. Think we're going to need a bunch of low scoring shoot outs. If Australia score 350 in any innings, they're winning that match.
  #172  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:16 AM
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Comfortable win for England, never in doubt.

More seriously, with a bit more to the batting I think the first Ashes test will be very interesting. Shall we start a new thread for that or carry on here? Regardless, I'll have a first go at my preferred starting XI for next week: Roy, Burns, Denly, Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Woakes, Curran, Broad, Archer, Anderson. Yup, no spinner - why bother in English conditions? Ali isn't good enough and his batting is terrible too. I'm not concerned about the bowling attack, it's the top 6 that worry me. But Roy played well enough yesterday to merit a place, Denly deserves another chance after being run out by his captain, and who else is there? If Bairstow fails again with the bat I'd be inclined to think about Foakes or even Buttler, but I have a feeling he will be absolutely furious with himself about his pair and has the mentality to prove the doubters wrong. Fingers crossed anyway.
  #173  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:22 AM
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Yup, no spinner - why bother in English conditions? Ali isn't good enough and his batting is terrible too.
I'd pick Leach myself - but this judgement on Ali's bowling is at variance with the facts. Moeen Aliís last nine Tests with the ball: 45 wickets @ 23 (leading wicket-taker in Sri Lanka and West Indies). Also in his last ten home Tests he has 43 wickets at 21.04. How much better can he be?
  #174  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:26 AM
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Hmm, fair enough. I never let facts get in the way of a good argument . Clearly my frustration with his batting has unfairly coloured my perception of his bowling. Nevertheless, is it madness to play without a spinner when we have so many good pace/seam bowlers available? Does it risk the weather making a fool of you if you go for it on the basis of a damp, overcast forecast, only for the sun to come out for four days?

Who would you leave out for Leach?
  #175  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:31 AM
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Hmm, fair enough. I never let facts get in the way of a good argument . Clearly my frustration with his batting has unfairly coloured my perception of his bowling. Nevertheless, is it madness to play without a spinner when we have so many good pace/seam bowlers available? Does it risk the weather making a fool of you if you go for it on the basis of a damp, overcast forecast, only for the sun to come out for four days?

Who would you leave out for Leach?
Mo.

This is where I align with you - I think the seam up bowling is where you want to be looking to take wickets - but I would want a spinner so you don't get caught out by the pitch and can play for variety and containment. Mo is an attacking spinner but Leach is much more likely to be able to play a good containing role and let the seam up bowlers have at it. Woakes would bat 8. Leach 9.

I can see them picking Mo - if he has a bad test though, they should whip him out quickly for Leach before the series slips away.

The top order is a shambles (as I've mentioned multiple times passim). I've no solutions. I just knnow that they shouldn't be going back to the well with Vince and Ballance - two names mentioned in the rain delay when Atherton, Hussain and Lloyd were chucking around their potential selections for the 1st Test. They've been tried. They've not fixed their failings. Don't pick them. I acknowledge however that the same can be said for several of the current squad.

Last edited by Cumbrian; 07-26-2019 at 08:32 AM.
  #176  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:43 AM
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Agreed, but which seamer do you leave out of my XI (assuming they are all fully fit, of course)? Not Stokes, he's mainly there for his batting at the moment, and rightly so. Not Archer, who is our only real quick. Woakes, who is in great form right now? Broad, with 2015 still in Aussie minds? Anderson? It has to be Curran, I suppose, which seems harsh given he bowls tidily and (possibly more importantly in this side) has made several vital contributions with the bat, not least yesterday. Then again, I suppose you could say the same of Leach!
  #177  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:57 AM
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Curran is the one to come out - he's useful if it's going around corners but you've got Woakes and Anderson for that, at a higher level - he might be useful in rotation. Archer is someone I would want in but a more practical view is that you look at the conditions and play your best combination for those. If it's flat, I'd consider dropping Broad or Woakes for Archer. If it's seaming around (or you're in Birmingham or Lord's given his record there) you might well want Woakes. 5 Tests in 6 weeks will be difficult on some of the fast bowlers and having Curran and Archer to spell players could be useful.

For what it's worth, I would pick:

Roy
Burns (on a short leash but for whom? Unsure)
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes/Archer
Leach
Broad/Archer
Anderson
  #178  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:11 AM
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Looks good. I guess on a pitch like today's, having 'only' four seamers isn't a problem when you only need 2 .
  #179  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:29 AM
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Looks good.
I don't think I'd go that far!
  #180  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:40 AM
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I'd like to see Bairstow dropped in favour of Foakes, but it's not going to happen.

Bairstow has done nothing in Tests recently - in the last 2 years, his average has been 29, with a high score of 119. It hasn't helped that he's been shoved around the order, but that just shows that they don't really know what to do with him. He's not as good a technical keeper as Foakes, and Foakes has played 5 Tests with an average of 41 - he got 2 tons in Sri Lanka and then it seems that a couple of bad games in the West Indies, where the rest of English batting also did not fair well, has him removed from contention.

As for the rest:

Roy
Burns
Denly
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes

Bowling is a bit more horses-for-courses, but I'd be surprised if Archer didn't get a nod for next week if Anderson is injured. I'd suggest that otherwise, Woakes, Broad and Anderson are pretty much undroppable for the time being.

I hope they stick with Leach, and I repeat my call from earlier in the year for some consistency with the batting lineup. Roy, Burns and Denly especially need to play through, and to feel that they can fail without being immediately chucked out. We've picked them now, re-assess after the ashes.
  #181  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:41 AM
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Oh, and hell of a game, eh? Perfect conditions for England's seamers, they'd have run through a lot of very good teams today, but you've still got to turn up and do it, and a potential banana skin averted.
  #182  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:05 AM
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Bairstow has done nothing in Tests recently - in the last 2 years, his average has been 29, with a high score of 119.
Genuine question: how does this compare with any of England's top 3 over the same period? At the moment I'd settle for our top 3 averaging 29 apiece this series! 87/3 isn't a collapse, it's a solid start by recent standards especially in the prevailing conditions. I'm not even joking.

On the other hand, I do agree with you in that if Bairstow fails with the bat in the first test, we should bring Foakes in instead. I also agree with you about the top 3. As we have all said, it's not as if anyone is smashing on the door to replace them.

Got to feel for Curran, he has the misfortune to be competing for selection against two players (Stokes and Woakes) who do similar things with a bit more experience, who both happen to be in good form at the same time. Still, his time will come I feel, not least if and when one of those two picks up an injury.

Oh, and reviewing earlier posts: Cumbrian's "this judgement... is at variance with the facts" is the nicest way I've been called a fucking idiot in some time, nicely played sir .
  #183  
Old 07-26-2019, 02:35 PM
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Genuine question: how does this compare with any of England's top 3 over the same period?
You mean that top three that has been constantly chopped and changed as players are dropped and brought back?

Bairstow has also opened in that time, I don't see any of the other failed openers coming in further down.

Well, except Ali.
  #184  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:04 PM
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Warner
Harris
Khawaja
Smith
Wade
Burns
Paine
Cummins
Starc
Pattinson
Siddle

Burns should open rather than Harris but that selection horse has bolted.
They are going to pick either Marnus Lambruschagne or Mitchell Marsh at #6 but fucked if I can.
Not convinced Starc is fit but he’s the best leftie they have in some form
Team really needs the GOAT (Lyon) but why pick a spinner who needs bounce when the tracks are more likely shooters and Tests probably over in 3 days?
  #185  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:25 AM
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Why is Lyon the GOAT? Just heavy sarcasm or is there more to it?

From my uninformed perspective, there are only three names in that line up to worry about (Warner, Smith, and Starc) - which probably means several of the others will play blinders. But it certainly doesn't feel as scary as the days of the likes of Waugh, Ponting, Hayden, Langer, McGrath, Lee, Warne, Gilchrist et al.
  #186  
Old 07-27-2019, 05:58 AM
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Lyon is Australia’s most successful finger spinner.
It’s a skill Aussies have an uneasy relationship with, like the classic medium pacer, the stereotypical work horses of English county cricket.

Australian spinners are (usually) wrist spinners who bowl a few overs in the first innings and then are expected to turn ‘em square on a deteriorating pitch and bowl the team to a win.

McGill rather than Warne.

Lyon doesn’t do that. Even on deteriorating pitches.
What he can do is get top order wickets in the first session of a Test.
He gets his wickets more with bounce than spin. He fields well and doesn’t give his wicket away.
100% honest performer who has simply earn his place amongst the first picked.
  #187  
Old 07-29-2019, 11:50 AM
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England covering their bases by naming a 14 man squad for the first game on Thursday. No Leach, no Rashid, and a variety of pace bowlers to choose from.

There's a piece on cricinfo about Trevor Bayliss suggesting to Root to bat at 3, but I'd be surprised if he did it.
  #188  
Old 07-31-2019, 07:14 AM
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There's a piece on cricinfo about Trevor Bayliss suggesting to Root to bat at 3, but I'd be surprised if he did it.
Me too, but apparently they have. Root's rationale for batting 4 was that he needed the extra time to put captaincy stress behind him and get in a batting frame of mind. A cruel person would suggest that the switch back to 3 is motivated by the reflection that in practice it really wasn't buying him that much time.
  #189  
Old 07-31-2019, 07:34 AM
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To misquote Douglas Adams, "Rumours that the England no. 6 starts getting padded up as soon as the openers leave the dressing room were all vigorously denied and absolutely true.".

I don't see the point of Root at 3, if someone is going to fail there it would be better for the team if it were Denly, I would have thought. Or perhaps they are going to play an extra bowler - just accept the batting is awful and try to bowl the Aussies out for 150 every time.
  #190  
Old 07-31-2019, 09:00 AM
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Team has been selected:

Rory Burns, Jason Roy, Joe Root (c), Joe Denly, Jos Buttler, Ben Stokes, Jonny Bairstow, Moeen Ali, Chris Woakes, Stuart Broad, James Anderson.

Think I would have Woakes coming in ahead of Mo. This is what I'd expected though, as a general selection. Attack looks a bit one paced but you're not going to play Archer and Anderson (both coming back from injury) in the same team together in case both break down at once and you're then royally screwed. Mo, at the moment, has to be selected as pure bowler, where his stats support that. The minute Australia really get on top of him though, I'd be looking at Leach.

I fancy the look of Australia in this series, without wishing to rehash stuff I've said above. Good chance they're not going to be playing Starc tomorrow. What's worrying is that it could well be the right call. In English conditions, Siddle and Pattinson are potentially lethal. Save Starc for a flatter deck later in the series and make sure he's fit.
  #191  
Old 07-31-2019, 09:05 AM
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Re: Root at 3. Two points, one I have made before, one exclusively on the current merits:

The idea your best batsman should play 3 is rubbish. IVA Richards played most of his Tests away from 3, Tendulkar didn't really play 3, nor did Lara, nor does Kohli or Smith, nor did KP, Kallis, Sangakkara and many others besides. Pick your best batsman where he is comfortable, don't shoehorn him in wherever because of some mythical piece of logic.

Root's average as captain at 4 is 45.28. His average at 3 is 28.54. Are we really saying that either a) Root is going to turn this around, b) Denly will score 17 runs an innings more at 4 than he would have at 3 or c) a combination of the above? Seems unlikely to me - seems instead like it's weakening an already brittle batting order.
  #192  
Old 07-31-2019, 09:17 AM
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Drop Buttler and you can play another bowler.
  #193  
Old 07-31-2019, 09:20 AM
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Why would we do that when, after Ben Foakes (who isn't playing because management is scared of Jonny Bairstow's temper, it seems), he averages the most with the bat for England in Tests over the last 18 months? The one to drop was Denly or Burns for Archer or Curran. They'd probably have gone for Curran on the grounds that the top order is still brittle and tehy like to bat all the way down if possible. I'd have picked Archer - because he's a point of difference and probably better than anyone in the attack not named Anderson (and even then he's coming back from injury).
  #194  
Old 07-31-2019, 10:14 AM
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I still say YJB will prove the doubters wrong, I'd back him to average at least 50 in the first test. If proved wrong I'm quite prepared to eat my words and hope he is swapped for Foakes, or even a bowler with Buttler taking the gloves.

Cumbrian, can you square "not playing Starc could be the right call" with "I'd have picked Archer"? Seems to me that if Australia do indeed not play Starc, and it's the right call, then not playing Archer (in favour of strengthening the batting and having a 4-5 seam attack) could also be the right call. Then again, I could be missing an important difference between Starc and Archer (other than left-arm/right-arm, which I don't think is relevant here?).
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:47 AM
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Cumbrian, can you square "not playing Starc could be the right call" with "I'd have picked Archer"? Seems to me that if Australia do indeed not play Starc, and it's the right call, then not playing Archer (in favour of strengthening the batting and having a 4-5 seam attack) could also be the right call. Then again, I could be missing an important difference between Starc and Archer (other than left-arm/right-arm, which I don't think is relevant here?).
I think, for me, it's about variety of the seam up bowling attack. All of England's pace bowlers are of similar pace and try to seam it around a bit. Good for these conditions, but if it goes flat or the overhead conditions don't work, you've no point of difference. Archer has raw pace that no one else in England has.

Australia by contrast are going to play Cummins who will supply that raw pace. They can afford to then play the guys who will exploit the conditions better - imo, that's Pattinson and Siddle, rather than Starc - knowing that Cummins is fit and definitely in their side.

I think Starc, with the injury, is a gamble Australia don't need to take. I don't think England can take their gamble with Archer since two of the guys they would select (if Archer is fit, I think I'd drop Broad rather than Woakes but it's a tough call) are coming back from injury and they would be screwed if they had to rely on Woakes/Broad, Stokes and Ali for a long stretch.

The alternative is to pick both and drop a bat, as AK84 intimates; for me, either Denly or Burns. If everyone can bowl full bore though, then you've got 6 bowlers and a different problem. Might be an easier one to solve though...
  #196  
Old 07-31-2019, 05:20 PM
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Australia by contrast are going to play Cummins who will supply that raw pace. They can afford to then play the guys who will exploit the conditions better - imo, that's Pattinson and Siddle, rather than Starc.
It's been a while since Pattinson was fit to play but when he was he is quicker than Cummins.
Agree that Pattinson, Cummins and Siddle is the best pace attack for Edgbaston with one claveat ... they are all right armers.

Given that the most fanciful result is a 5 day batting display, I'd bring in Starc for Lyon and go straight pace.
  #197  
Old 07-31-2019, 05:27 PM
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Warner
Harris
Khawaja
Smith
Wade
Burns
Paine
Cummins
Starc
Pattinson
Siddle
Langer is sending redemption signals and so it will probably be Bancroft to open. JL really likes his home WA boys regardless of how gronky muppets they are.

Burns isn't in the squad and Head is vice captain so the line-up now becomes:

Warner
Bancroft
Khawaja
Smith
Head
Wade
Paine
Cummins
Pattinson
Siddle
Lyon

Am trying to convince myself that lot can reliably bat for two sessions in English conditions. It's a struggle.
Only Smith of that lot has scored a Test century in Blighty.

Last edited by penultima thule; 07-31-2019 at 05:29 PM.
  #198  
Old 08-01-2019, 12:53 AM
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Well, I'd back at least Warner and Khawaja to add themselves to that list before the series is out.
  #199  
Old 08-01-2019, 02:37 AM
Cumbrian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penultima thule View Post
It's been a while since Pattinson was fit to play but when he was he is quicker than Cummins.
Agree that Pattinson, Cummins and Siddle is the best pace attack for Edgbaston with one claveat ... they are all right armers.

Given that the most fanciful result is a 5 day batting display, I'd bring in Starc for Lyon and go straight pace.
I think there's fair enough reasoning here. If it doesn't look like it will spin much, don't bother with Lyon. He's pretty useful against the several left handed batsmen England have but it might not be required.

Pattinson is an odd one - I've never thought of him as super quick (though evidently he is) mostly because all the highlights I've ever seen of him on the web from his time at Notts are him seaming the ball around and making everyone look useless. Pace and seam movement to exploit English conditions? Arguably he should be first name on the team sheet.

We haven't even discussed Hazelwood...

Last edited by Cumbrian; 08-01-2019 at 02:38 AM.
  #200  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:24 AM
penultima thule is offline
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Before he got hurt the the combination of Pattinson & Starc promised to be a better opening partners than Holding and Garner. Combined with Hazlewood or Siddle with Lyon would have been as good as we have ever fielded, though Lille, Thomson, Walker and Mallet weren’t bad either.

I don’t know if he has remodelled his action but a swing & seam merchant isn’t how I know and rank him, but he was a top shelf quick.

Hazlewood was considered the successor to McGrath but he hasn’t proved to be as disciplined and accurate and he hasn’t taken on the hack work forcing captains to over bowl Cummins. This is why his CA contract has been downgraded and he may lose his spot to Siddle.
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