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  #101  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:21 AM
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Really enjoyed this episode even if I wish the character development had been done more in advance. They would have the freedom to do that if they were more episodic and less serialized but what can you do?
  #102  
Old 03-16-2019, 05:44 PM
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So is all this AI vulnerability going to result in more than just a scrapping of holo tech...but a complete retrofit to TOS-look stuff?? I know a lot of people say "Mannn just move forward. Stop looking back and trying to appease old fans"

I personally find that insulting. That said, I'd be fine with old-school look. TOS looks great and it looked great in Trials and Tribbleations. I also would be fine with a modified retrofit look. And I'd be fine with no retrofit. I'm just not fine with the veiled and not-so-veiled insults at fandom as if ALL fandom are toxic assholes.

Also...are Spock and Pike going to be permanent cast members? How is that going to be reconciled? "Hows Enterprise doing No.1?" "Still in repairs" "k."

Two years later: "Still in repairs"
  #103  
Old 03-17-2019, 05:26 PM
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Well that was a terrible episode.

Any episode where they mysteriously forget the signature technology of Star Trek to allow a character to die is nonsense.

Come on, the final act BEGAN with three people TRANSPORTING onto the space station. There is no, absolutely no, reason people were not beamed into the brig in that final act.

Terrible. Absolutely terrible, lazy-ass writing and producing.
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  #104  
Old 03-17-2019, 05:50 PM
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Well that was a terrible episode.

Any episode where they mysteriously forget the signature technology of Star Trek to allow a character to die is nonsense.

Come on, the final act BEGAN with three people TRANSPORTING onto the space station. There is no, absolutely no, reason people were not beamed into the brig in that final act.

Terrible. Absolutely terrible, lazy-ass writing and producing.
Havent seen it but I read a synopsis. In my HEAD...if its all placed in the right order, I thought it was great. Especially the stuff about deleting memories and holding onto the memory of her and her husband. I quite like the notion of Control too...not so hot on the time travel stuff though.

If they keep Spock and Pike and integrate everyone on Enterprise...I'll sign up for CBS. Or if they make Archer the Red Angel, Ill sign up. Those are my conditions.
  #105  
Old 03-17-2019, 06:29 PM
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Well that was a terrible episode.

Any episode where they mysteriously forget the signature technology of Star Trek to allow a character to die is nonsense.

Come on, the final act BEGAN with three people TRANSPORTING onto the space station. There is no, absolutely no, reason people were not beamed into the brig in that final act.

Terrible. Absolutely terrible, lazy-ass writing and producing.
It seemed an obvious solution. I thought I must have missed a throw-away line where Control has fargled the glatzenbergers so that it wasn't possible.

I don't understand why Spock's big question is "why me?". Not "what causes it?" or "how do I stop it?".
  #106  
Old 03-17-2019, 06:54 PM
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Well that was a terrible episode.

Any episode where they mysteriously forget the signature technology of Star Trek to allow a character to die is nonsense.

Come on, the final act BEGAN with three people TRANSPORTING onto the space station. There is no, absolutely no, reason people were not beamed into the brig in that final act.

Terrible. Absolutely terrible, lazy-ass writing and producing.
I'll add to the lack of transporters, with suddenly ineffective phasers. In a universe where small hand phasers can disintegrate things, suddenly a phaser rifle can't even open a door?
  #107  
Old 03-17-2019, 08:45 PM
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I imagine there is already a trope name for when in a single episode a minor character suddenly gets a ton of backstory followed by a completely forced OMG SO EMOTIONAL SO VERY IMPORTANT death scene. I don't know the name of that trope, but for me, it will be known as Fartboting.

Seriously, "You adored me and I adore you, too?" Is there a left field in the galaxy big enough for that to have come out of?

Last edited by zbuzz; 03-17-2019 at 08:47 PM.
  #108  
Old 03-17-2019, 09:19 PM
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I imagine there is already a trope name for when in a single episode a minor character suddenly gets a ton of backstory followed by a completely forced OMG SO EMOTIONAL SO VERY IMPORTANT death scene.

A Death In the Limelight. (No, I didn't already know that--I found it on the episode recap page.)



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Seriously, "You adored me and I adore you, too?" Is there a left field in the galaxy big enough for that to have come out of?

Can you imagine if that had been said by Kirk and Spock at the end of ST2tRoK?
  #109  
Old 03-17-2019, 09:36 PM
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A Death In the Limelight. (No, I didn't already know that--I found it on the episode recap page.)






Can you imagine if that had been said by Kirk and Spock at the end of ST2tRoK?


I believe that would be ST2tWoK.
  #110  
Old 03-17-2019, 09:50 PM
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I wonder if this will get a chance to express how much it loves Tilly meaningful character development?
  #111  
Old 03-17-2019, 10:56 PM
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, but


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So is all this AI vulnerability going to result in more than just a scrapping of holo tech...but a complete retrofit to TOS-look stuff?? I know a lot of people say "Mannn just move forward. Stop looking back and trying to appease old fans"

I personally find that insulting. That said, I'd be fine with old-school look. TOS looks great and it looked great in Trials and Tribbleations. I also would be fine with a modified retrofit look. And I'd be fine with no retrofit. I'm just not fine with the veiled and not-so-veiled insults at fandom as if ALL fandom are toxic assholes.
Holographs and “modern” graphics are just data output. For all we know that the TOS era Enterprise had much more powerful computers but less flashy and graphical data output.
We see in in real life, SuperComputers are a lot more Spartan than commercial ones.
https://futurism.com/the-eight-most-...s-in-the-world

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Also...are Spock and Pike going to be permanent cast members? How is that going to be reconciled? "Hows Enterprise doing No.1?" "Still in repairs" "k."

Two years later: "Still in repairs"
[/QUOTE]
So? A refit can take years. They are not going to waste a pair of trained officers.
  #112  
Old 03-18-2019, 06:13 AM
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Holographs and “modern” graphics are just data output. For all we know that the TOS era Enterprise had much more powerful computers but less flashy and graphical data output.
WAIT! Wait. That reminded me of another thing that was terrible about this episode.

Since WHEN do Star Trek's ubiquitous surveillance cameras record infrared? And have the bridge display also show infrared as a matter of course?

Seriously, that was a WTF moment.


Don't get me wrong: I love the character development and would like to see more of it, but not at the expense of everyone in the bridge taking stupid pills for the final five minutes of an episode.
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  #113  
Old 03-18-2019, 07:28 AM
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Well that was a terrible episode.

Any episode where they mysteriously forget the signature technology of Star Trek to allow a character to die is nonsense.

Come on, the final act BEGAN with three people TRANSPORTING onto the space station. There is no, absolutely no, reason people were not beamed into the brig in that final act.

Terrible. Absolutely terrible, lazy-ass writing and producing.
I'm not sure you understood what was happening. There were plenty of ways they could have saved her but she didn't want saving. She was sacrificing herself to keep the ship safe. No one forgot about transporters.
  #114  
Old 03-18-2019, 08:05 AM
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I'm not sure you understood what was happening. There were plenty of ways they could have saved her but she didn't want saving. She was sacrificing herself to keep the ship safe. No one forgot about transporters.
exactly - she specifically said "I cannot control the cybernetic stuff - when I get out of here I will kill you and I will destroy discovery"

Other points with regards to phasers not working on her - taken -but are also to show that somehow her upgrades/cybernetics were somehow immune or less affected, making beaming her onto discovery even more problematic. Against teh door(s) - well - those were prison doors.
  #115  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:01 AM
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I'm not sure you understood what was happening. There were plenty of ways they could have saved her but she didn't want saving. She was sacrificing herself to keep the ship safe. No one forgot about transporters.

Burnham was trying to stop her from uploading the file but was unable to do so. Airiam was asking to be blown into space because she couldn't stop herself any longer.


But there was nothing wrong with the transporter. Airiam wouldn't have done much sitting inside the brig -- or sitting inside a transparent aluminum crate being towed via a tractor beam.


And she could have been transported there after being blown into space.



I repeat: weak-ass writing.
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  #116  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:45 AM
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Burnham was trying to stop her from uploading the file but was unable to do so. Airiam was asking to be blown into space because she couldn't stop herself any longer.


But there was nothing wrong with the transporter. Airiam wouldn't have done much sitting inside the brig -- or sitting inside a transparent aluminum crate being towed via a tractor beam.


And she could have been transported there after being blown into space.



I repeat: weak-ass writing.
I disagree - weak writing would be to have her redeemed by the end of the episode and part of the regular crew without repercussions (Tyler/Voq) - this was a staple of every other "crew member gone bad for 60 minute episode" (Data would have been sold for spare parts the FIRST time he locked me out of my ship).

Strong writing to have them actually have to sacrifice the character - space is dangerous, this AI is/was clearly dangerous - and even had transporting worked (maybe the Prison nature of that particular area was such that transporters couldn't) - what then? (Isaac) How would you be able to trust said char to be in control from "now on" ? Far stronger writing to have the 'ultimate sacrifice' and then deal with the repercussions of that.

Last edited by simster; 03-19-2019 at 08:47 AM.
  #117  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:51 AM
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I disagree - weak writing would be to have her redeemed by the end of the episode and part of the regular crew without repercussions (Tyler/Voq)
That would have been the default choice and it's been done to death on Star Trek.
A better option would have been to leave her in a box and continue dealing with her for the rest of the season.

(and this is Star Trek, not Battlestar Galactica, so selling Data for spare parts is not an option).
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  #118  
Old 03-19-2019, 09:18 AM
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How would you be able to trust said char to be in control from "now on" ? Far stronger writing to have the 'ultimate sacrifice' and then deal with the repercussions of that.
As I said earlier, you use a disruptor on pod people e.g. the doctor. You don't assume that just because it looks like your dead lover it is.
I also don't throw out my computer after cleaning viruses from it.



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  #119  
Old 03-19-2019, 09:35 AM
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I thought the episode was well done. My only complaint was I wish they introduced her backstory sooner.
  #120  
Old 03-19-2019, 04:36 PM
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If they keep Spock and Pike and integrate everyone on Enterprise...I'll sign up for CBS. Or if they make Archer the Red Angel, Ill sign up. Those are my conditions.
No word on what happens to spock, but Anson Mount exits Discovery at the end of season 2.
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  #121  
Old 03-20-2019, 02:41 AM
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How does Terminator-style time travel work in Star Trek? The cyborg character was taken over by a probe sent back by a future AI to ensure the advanced AI data gets uploaded to itself so that it will be able to conquer the galaxy. Reese was sent back in time with the Red Angel suit to stop it. Assuming he succeeds- what? Is the cyborg still dead? Did people still see the Red Angel?

Last edited by DPRK; 03-20-2019 at 02:41 AM.
  #122  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:26 AM
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How does Terminator-style time travel work in Star Trek? The cyborg character was taken over by a probe sent back by a future AI to ensure the advanced AI data gets uploaded to itself so that it will be able to conquer the galaxy. Reese was sent back in time with the Red Angel suit to stop it. Assuming he succeeds- what? Is the cyborg still dead? Did people still see the Red Angel?
I don't think Trek has any special rules for time travel compared to any other franchise. There are several different methods shown that move characters to different times (mechanical devices or vehicles, natural anamolies, slingshotting around stars while traveling faster than light, and Q-like powers, to name some.)

From the perspective of the Red Angel, he/she may have initially time traveled to try and prevent AI armegeddon, but later on he/she may perceive that they time traveled to "protect" the "correct" time stream from being changed (back to the original original). I don't see a requirement that the Red Angel must cease to exist.

Last edited by mlees; 03-20-2019 at 08:27 AM.
  #123  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:49 AM
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Talk about your unearned emotional moments, that long Fartbot funeral was cringe-worthy. Add to that the half-dozen other attempts to evoke emotions and half the episode had sad background string music. Might as well call the show Stardates of Our Lives.
  #124  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:57 AM
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Come to think of it, the series doesn't have a lot of earned emotional moments. I think we're supposed to be moved by the death and then alternate universe resurrection of Phillipa, but she's such a wooden actor and has no charm that it generates no actual genuine feelings. And we, the audience, don't share whatever appreciation for her that Michael does.

The emotional climax of the first season is supposed to be when we all fawn over Michael giving a rousing speech about how we in the federation are far too evolved and self-righteous to attack the homeworld of a race that's about to attack our own homeworld and wipe us out. (They're so proud of that one they replayed almost the whole damn thing in the "last season on..." section of the first episode of the second season). We're supposed to buy that Tilly is this hidden magnificent talent and it's supposed to be emotionally satisfying when everyone recognizes this, but it never feels organic or earned.

I kinda feel like the show goes through the motions for what an earned emotional moment should look like, but the writing failed to get us to appreciate the characters or the events enough for there to actually be an emotional impact. Almost like a cargo cult, the writers are trying to imitate what they've seen work elsewhere. "This is what an emotional payoff should be structured like!" without any actual organic weight to make it work.

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  #125  
Old 03-22-2019, 01:34 PM
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Come to think of it, the series doesn't have a lot of earned emotional moments. I think we're supposed to be moved by the death and then alternate universe resurrection of Phillipa, but she's such a wooden actor and has no charm that it generates no actual genuine feelings. And we, the audience, don't share whatever appreciation for her that Michael does.

The emotional climax of the first season is supposed to be when we all fawn over Michael giving a rousing speech about how we in the federation are far too evolved and self-righteous to attack the homeworld of a race that's about to attack our own homeworld and wipe us out. (They're so proud of that one they replayed almost the whole damn thing in the "last season on..." section of the first episode of the second season). We're supposed to buy that Tilly is this hidden magnificent talent and it's supposed to be emotionally satisfying when everyone recognizes this, but it never feels organic or earned.

I kinda feel like the show goes through the motions for what an earned emotional moment should look like, but the writing failed to get us to appreciate the characters or the events enough for there to actually be an emotional impact. Almost like a cargo cult, the writers are trying to imitate what they've seen work elsewhere. "This is what an emotional payoff should be structured like!" without any actual organic weight to make it work.


I think you’ve nailed why I haven’t been able to quite get into this show. The Saru webisode actually had more emotional impact, and it was only like 20 minutes.
  #126  
Old 03-22-2019, 01:50 PM
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I think we're supposed to be moved by the death and then alternate universe resurrection of Phillipa, but she's such a wooden actor and has no charm that it generates no actual genuine feelings.

I was noticing during this episode that her English seems to have improved a lot since the beginning of the series.
  #127  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:03 PM
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Ugh. 42 minutes of people talking about their feelings, 3 minutes of things actually happening.
  #128  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:09 PM
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Ugh. 42 minutes of people talking about their feelings, 3 minutes of things actually happening.
No shit! Every episode keeps forcing us to watch Michael cry about something. Can't we just have Pike and Spock only? Oh, and that chick with the cybereye, too
  #129  
Old 03-25-2019, 04:11 PM
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After the funeral scene, I was kind of hoping someone would nudge Spock and say, "Before the previous episode, Fartbot spent more screen time delivering farts than delivering actual lines of dialog and yet her funeral scene is twice as long as yours will be. How does that make you feel?"
  #130  
Old 03-25-2019, 04:40 PM
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After the funeral scene, I was kind of hoping someone would nudge Spock and say, "Before the previous episode, Fartbot spent more screen time delivering farts than delivering actual lines of dialog and yet her funeral scene is twice as long as yours will be. How does that make you feel?"
And be honest, this is for posterity.
  #131  
Old 03-26-2019, 01:12 AM
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No shit! Every episode keeps forcing us to watch Michael cry about something.
Yeah, the actress seems to deliver every line with some weird emotional intensity, as if she could barely hold back some torrent raging within her, and then she's basically talking about the weather. It gets really exhausting, to me, and actually makes me less emotionally invested---like somebody making a huge drama out of everything doesn't make you empathize, but just makes you want to tell them to chill the fuck out.

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  #132  
Old 03-26-2019, 07:02 AM
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Yeah, the actress seems to deliver every line with some weird emotional intensity, as if she could barely hold back some torrent raging within her, and then she's basically talking about the weather. It gets really exhausting, to me, and actually makes me less emotionally invested---like somebody making a huge drama out of everything doesn't make you empathize, but just makes you want to tell them to chill the fuck out.
She must have been a hoot on Planet Vulcan. She should have spent a fraction of the time meditating that she spent in science class. Then again, the mythology is that basically all Vulcans are like that unless they rigidly suppress their emotions; when they don't, they act like maladjusted Romulans.

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  #133  
Old 03-29-2019, 12:48 AM
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The plot for Deep Space Whine was especially nonsensical tonight.
  #134  
Old 03-29-2019, 01:06 PM
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(YAY! I remembered that THIS was a place I could come talk about this without alienating people!)

Can someone explain to me WHAT Federation Protocol requires you to want something bad enough you have to be poked in the eyes to unlock a failsafe?
  #135  
Old 03-29-2019, 02:01 PM
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So, that Red Angel suit clearly contains technology from the future unlike anything known to Starfleet. Except oh wait, turns out they built it 20 years ago. The brain wave scan proves without a doubt that it was Michael in that suit. No error possible, couldn't have been spoofed, no way no how. Except oh wait, yeah, could've totally been her mother, too, the patterns are really quite alike.

The capabilities the suit possesses are completely beyond anything the federation has shown even in the 24th century---I could take the resurrection beam, but moving an entire colony of humans halfway across the galaxy, church and all? (By the way, I didn't quite get that point---did they survive the apocalypse?)

I thought this season had started to show improvement---have some genuine Trek moments, contact with the unknown, exploration, that sort of thing---but it seems my investment is inversely proportional to the size of the threat they're constructing. I can't really conceive of hundreds of trillions of lives; it's just an entirely abstract number. I'd take a simple tale of galactic exploration over saving the world, nay, galaxy, once again any day.
  #136  
Old 03-29-2019, 03:26 PM
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So, that Red Angel suit clearly contains technology from the future unlike anything known to Starfleet. Except oh wait, turns out they built it 20 years ago. The brain wave scan proves without a doubt that it was Michael in that suit. No error possible, couldn't have been spoofed, no way no how. Except oh wait, yeah, could've totally been her mother, too, the patterns are really quite alike.
I agree with your complaints, but let's try fanwanking. **I haven't yet seen the episode that aired 28 March.** Spoilers are fine, but my fanwank may get derailed by new plot twists. **

Burnham is indeed in the Red Angel suit when Spock tried to mind meld with it and detected "human brain patterns". The data collected from the ancient, dying what's-it also confirms that Burnham was indeed the Red Angel (at least, she was when the critter "met" the Red Angel).

But Burnham had to get the RA suit from somewhere, somewhen. Why not the scientists (her mother) who built it? Why can't the suit go forward in time, as well as back? In testing the new invention, Burnham's mom somehow discovered that her own daughter "was/will be" dying on some planet in the future, and (selfishly?) uses the suit to save her.

Last edited by mlees; 03-29-2019 at 03:29 PM.
  #137  
Old 03-29-2019, 04:37 PM
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Also, are we really supposed to believe that Control can wipe out everybody? All the hyper-advanced aliens encountered in the various ST series that could erase humanity with no more effort than blinking an eye, literally?
  #138  
Old 03-29-2019, 06:07 PM
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So Control takes over the captain of the section 31 ship, talks the two crew members into spying on Enterprise to steal the sphere data, and just...sits in a hallway with his nanobot exposed for anyone to walk in on?! Jeez, at least lock yourself in your quarters or a bathroom stall or something. This episode was better than the last one, but now the bad is starting to outweigh the good.

Also, Michael crying again.

They already cast Detective Greggs. Now we just need Hurk, Carver, Daniels, the Bunk, McNulty, and Cool Lester Smooth and this show might turn into something great!
  #139  
Old 03-29-2019, 06:30 PM
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Season 1 gets better and better with every episode from Season 2.
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  #140  
Old 03-30-2019, 07:02 AM
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This goes without saying, but I still have to say it: shut up, Tilly.
  #141  
Old 03-31-2019, 01:43 AM
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They already cast Detective Greggs. Now we just need Hurk, Carver, Daniels, the Bunk, McNulty, and Cool Lester Smooth and this show might turn into something great!
Saru comin', yo!

Sorry, that's the best I could come up with.

Maybe Tilly saying "Sheeeit!"?

Hmm, no, that's not right either. Not a lot of Wire/Discovery common ground to make for a funny mashup.

Last edited by zbuzz; 03-31-2019 at 01:43 AM.
  #142  
Old 03-31-2019, 11:14 AM
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Very little of the second half of this season makes any sense the second you stop to think about it.

They obviously wanted a season-long arc, got told to put some stand-alone episodes in there, and instead of working out details along the way hit the EMOTION button whenever they didn't know what else to do.

It just feels like there's a complete lack of continuity in anything that happens and substantial handwaving of off-camera events.

For instance: Why would the Captain of a Starship have to LEAVE THE BRIDGE in order to perform an ENGINEERING security override that requires a retina scan?
How exactly did Control get access to Section 31's ship without anyone noticing -- so much so that it could create nanobots and force itself into a human?
And all that nonsense about Michael not being allowed to talk to her mother. Give me a break.
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  #143  
Old 03-31-2019, 01:16 PM
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Also, while they can't erase the sphere data (because mumble mumble mumble), they've got access to the physical media it's stored on---so simply take a sledgehammer to that. Or, failing this, they can apparently download it: so download it into a probe, or a couple of probes, and shoot them into the nearest star.
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Old 03-31-2019, 01:54 PM
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Or--you know--design the computers so that programs can't lock themselves in.
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Old 03-31-2019, 02:26 PM
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I watched the first 2 episodes of this season and it's not grabbing me. From skimming the rest of the thread it sounds like I'm probably not going to like the rest any better.

Hopefully this won't count as threadshitting but The Orville really found its narrative voice starting at about s2e6 and it has been really good. And it's super trekky. It's lovingly crafted to be very similar to ST:TNG. Even if you didn't like the uneven first season, the second half of the second season is getting really good. The first few eps of the 2nd season aren't very good so don't start there if you didn't like season 1. S2e6 and onward is where it grows the beard.

With that I'll blow out of the thread.
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Old 03-31-2019, 08:36 PM
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CONTROL was a tool S31 used before it clandestinely took over and started running it so it was already on their ship with their knowledge.

The show is far, far from perfect but it feels like some people just watch to dunk on it and barely pay attention to what is happening.

Last edited by Quimby; 03-31-2019 at 08:37 PM.
  #147  
Old 04-01-2019, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quimby View Post
CONTROL was a tool S31 used before it clandestinely took over and started running it so it was already on their ship with their knowledge.
That's not what the show has said.
Control was a computer system located at 31's headquarters. It was not part and parcel of every section 31 vessel -- it was a central system that assessed threats and made recommendations.

That said, given Control apparently infiltrated Discovery and Airiam, it makes zero sense for anyone in Section 31 (i.e. the most paranoid people in Starfleet) to fail to examine their own vessel's computer system.

I'll add another quibble: between Leland being stabbed in the face by Control (which, let me tell you, if I'm having to use a retinal scan system as a captain, I'm damn well making sure there are no stabby needles in it) and us next seeing Leland five hours pass. During a crisis. Did nobody think to go check on Captain?

Like I said, it falls apart the moment you start to examine it.
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Old 04-01-2019, 04:32 PM
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Did I miss the episode when they introduced Control? Because it seems like they just mentioned it once or twice, and suddenly it's the most important thing in the show.
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Old 04-01-2019, 08:52 PM
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Yeah I have to admit this season is starting to take me out of the show a little bit. I love a lot of things about it. The elements are all pretty great, and the set up for the season excited me, but a few things aren't gelling yet. Part of it is, it feels like it wants to be a timey wimey puzzle box like the River Song or Sally Sparrow bits on Dr Who or other clever time travel stories. But I don't know, maybe the pacing is off? The explanations for the mysterious red angel appearances we got so far seem a little random or half assed like an after thought. The only thing that gives me hope in that regard is that Mom Angel apparently didn't cause the signals, and next week it seems we start investigating the rest of them.
  #150  
Old 04-02-2019, 07:33 AM
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I just saw the latest episode. Did the download complete before the rift sucked up the Mcguffin?
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