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  #2701  
Old 02-21-2018, 07:42 AM
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I won't be satisfied with just that. Remember the scene from Game of Thrones?

Shame. Shame. Shame.

Dragged through the mud, covered with shit, humiliated, financially ruined forever, friendless, abandoned, broken, and then tossed in prison forever.
Yeah, lets not go there. That didn't work out all that well for those that shamed her. (Not so great for her family either.)
  #2702  
Old 02-21-2018, 08:47 AM
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Yeah, lets not go there. That didn't work out all that well for those that shamed her. (Not so great for her family either.)
Plus, I'd rather let Trump off scot-free than see him walk around naked.
  #2703  
Old 02-21-2018, 08:56 AM
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Plus, I'd rather let Trump off scot-free than see him walk around naked.
Justice is blind. And damned lucky in this case.
  #2704  
Old 02-21-2018, 10:49 AM
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His father-in-law's a billionaire Russian oligarch and he was involved in helping pro-Russian activities in the Ukrainian government. Just another coincidental Russian connection among Donald's friends.

Anyway. I'm sure he'll be fine. His father in law can buy him a new degree. Maybe he'll be an architect this time!
Or a marine biologist!
  #2705  
Old 02-21-2018, 12:42 PM
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Yeah, lets not go there. That didn't work out all that well for those that shamed her. (Not so great for her family either.)
Tell me when it is, I'll go on vacation
  #2706  
Old 02-21-2018, 12:44 PM
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The Guardian is reporting that Mueller's office has filed updated charges against Manafort.
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  #2707  
Old 02-21-2018, 02:17 PM
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The Guardian is reporting that Mueller's office has filed updated charges against Manafort.
Link.

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Reuters saw a court record referring to the sealed charges, which were also directed against Rick Gates, Manafortís former business associate, but the documents provided no details on the nature of the charges.
  #2708  
Old 02-21-2018, 05:18 PM
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No, A Goldwater Republican is one with balls, for good or for ill. There don't appear to be any in the current Congress.
Yes, the thing about Goldwater was that he actually thought for himself. For him there was no "party line" to adhere to.

Obviously, that little habit had to be rooted out of the modern GOP. Might have been contagious.
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  #2709  
Old 02-21-2018, 05:25 PM
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Oh, dear. Influence peddling may now be one of Manafort's concerns. (The Hill) Selling jobs in the White House in exchange for home loans.

I'm sure Trump knew nothing about it.
  #2710  
Old 02-22-2018, 03:40 PM
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Additional charges just filed against Manafort and Gates.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...tment-EDVA.pdf

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In total, more than $75,000,000 flowed through the offshore accounts. MANAFORT, with the assistance of GATES, laundered more than $30,000,000, income that he concealed from the United States Department of the Treasury (Treasury), the Department of Justice, and others.
Also this reminds me that I need to use the phrase "In furtherance of the scheme" a lot more often...
  #2711  
Old 02-22-2018, 04:46 PM
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Interestingly in light of the new charges, it's now being reported that Gates is firing the attorney that was supposed to be negotiating a plea deal, and isn't planning on pleading guilty after all. More power to him, I guess, but those charges seem like the sort that are pretty hard to beat if the Feds have receipts.
  #2712  
Old 02-22-2018, 04:54 PM
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each is being forced to Forfeit money and properties. I hope once they are forced to Forfeit everything they bought with their money laundering activities that they are fined additional amounts for tax evasion.
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  #2713  
Old 02-22-2018, 04:57 PM
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That seems like a shitload of money to launder, are they likely to have gotten away with it if this particular investigation wasn't happening or does someone keep eyes on money movements that big?
  #2714  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:06 PM
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Interestingly in light of the new charges, it's now being reported that Gates is firing the attorney that was supposed to be negotiating a plea deal, and isn't planning on pleading guilty after all. More power to him, I guess, but those charges seem like the sort that are pretty hard to beat if the Feds have receipts.
Or . . . maybe he's actually keeping his lawyer.

Probably ought to just look at this stuff once a week or so, who the hell knows what's happening on a daily basis.
  #2715  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:43 PM
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Also this reminds me that I need to use the phrase "In furtherance of the scheme" a lot more often...
Yes, as in "In furtherance of the scheme to get ice cream, I propose that...". It will drive my kids bonkers. I like it.
  #2716  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:55 PM
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Manafort has shitty options. But maybe not flipping is his best chance. He gets convicted, he might get pardoned. He flips, and he gets dead.
  #2717  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:12 PM
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Manafort has shitty options. But maybe not flipping is his best chance. He gets convicted, he might get pardoned. He flips, and he gets dead.
We're thinking along the same lines. I have a private theory that in Manafort's world, flipping is more dangerous than staying quiet -- and even without a pardon (which I don't think is coming, because if he is pardoned, he can be compelled to testify), he's safer in prison than being set free to enjoy a cup of tea.
  #2718  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:18 PM
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Manafort has shitty options. But maybe not flipping is his best chance. He gets convicted, he might get pardoned. He flips, and he gets dead.
The optics of pardoning either Manafort or Gates would be bad for Trump, besides the possibility of the rumored coordination with the New York AG to bring state charges against either in case of a federal pardon. Trump has gone out of his way to distance himself from Manafort and point out that all of these crimes (well, the previous ones) occurred long before he was Trump's campaign manager. Some of Gates' new alleged tax-related crimes took place while he was still on the Trump campaign and assisting in inauguration planning.

Trump's likely rationale for pardoning any of his minions or himself for anything that took place during the 2016 campaign or shortly thereafter would be some word salad combination of hoax, fake news, and Democrat-controlled deep state witch hunt. There really isn't a PR rationale for pardoning Manafort and Gates for crimes that happened a year or more before they even signed on to the Trump campaign. Tax evaders and money launderers don't make the most sympathetic damsels in distress to the public.

And there is always the possibility that Mueller could be holding back a charge or two in case of a pardon so that a new post-pardon charge could be brought and force Trump to look extra afraid/guilty if he were to issue a second pardon.
  #2719  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:11 PM
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Additional charges just filed against Manafort and Gates.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...tment-EDVA.pdf

Also this reminds me that I need to use the phrase "In furtherance of the scheme" a lot more often...
I read the first 15 pages or so and skimmed the rest. But holy crap, that is some major league serious crime. And this is going to fly under the radar, it it’s exactly a slow news week. But there should be shock and/or outrage that Trump had someobe like Manafort as his campaign manager or someone Gates handling his Inagural Committee donations. But it won’t.

And I’m really curious about some of the vendors listed ( even though they weren’t implicated.) I know all the landscapers and home automation contractors in the Hamptons.

Plus Yanukovych, the Ukrainian President that Manafort worked for, is an authoritarian thug and Putin’s puppet that was working to overthrow the Ukraine ( and give it to Russia ) from the inside. He won his presidential election in part, by poisoning his opponent.

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Yes, as in "In furtherance of the scheme to get ice cream, I propose that...". It will drive my kids bonkers. I like it.
This is going to be my catchphrase from now on as well. And boy, Manafort and Gates sure furthered a lot of schemes, didn’t they?

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 02-22-2018 at 08:13 PM.
  #2720  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:45 PM
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That seems like a shitload of money to launder, are they likely to have gotten away with it if this particular investigation wasn't happening or does someone keep eyes on money movements that big?
They're likely to have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those nosy teenagers and their dog.
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  #2721  
Old 02-22-2018, 11:47 PM
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I can't wait to see how this event is entangled in the whole Trumpsia mess:
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The founder of one of China’s biggest insurers, who had discussed possibly investing in a Manhattan skyscraper owned by the family of U.S. President Donald Trump’s son-in-law and adviser, will be prosecuted for financial offenses and regulators have taken control of his company, the government announced Friday.

Anbang Insurance Group chairman Wu Xiaohui is charged with improper fundraising and “taking others’ money,” according to a statement by the Shanghai prosecutor’s office. It gave no details and there was no indication the charges were linked to Wu’s talks with the family of Jared Kushner, which ended last March with no deal.
Quote:
Regulators took control of Anbang, which owns Manhattan’s Waldorf Astoria Hotel, to protect its solvency and consumer rights, the China Insurance Regulatory Commission said on its website. It said the company will be run by a committee of officials from China’s central bank, foreign exchange regulator and other agencies.

The takeover will not affect the company’s debt obligations, the statement said.

Anbang has been under scrutiny since a multibillion-dollar string of global acquisitions raised questions about how it paid for its buying spree, including the $2 billion purchase of the Waldorf.

Anbang’s negotiations with Kushner Cos. about a possible investment in its flagship property, 666 Fifth Ave., prompted members of the U.S. Congress to raise ethics concerns.
I'm starting to think that we need to be asking "how many countries did/do the Trumps help launder money from", not "did they do anything wrong".

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-22-2018 at 11:47 PM.
  #2722  
Old 02-23-2018, 01:42 AM
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Yes, as in "In furtherance of the scheme to get ice cream, I propose that...". It will drive my kids bonkers. I like it.
I think it's lacking something. How about '... to obtain ice cream...' Or 'acquire' ?
  #2723  
Old 02-23-2018, 01:56 AM
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I propose "dominate" as the dominative verb in that sentence about food.

"In furtherance of the scheme to dominate ice cream, I propose..."

Ah, Bucky Katt, you've taught me so much!
  #2724  
Old 02-23-2018, 02:06 AM
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Procure.
  #2725  
Old 02-23-2018, 03:33 AM
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Procure.
Source, evaluate and procure frozen dairy-based comestibles, consumption, for the purpose of.
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  #2726  
Old 02-23-2018, 03:44 AM
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I think it needs a hereby.

In furtherance of the scheme to source and procure ad hoc ice cream portions to be evaluated and, if appropriate, consumed, I hereby advance the proposal that...







Some of us have waaay to much experience with corporate bingo and not enough ice cream.
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Last edited by Nava; 02-23-2018 at 03:45 AM.
  #2727  
Old 02-23-2018, 08:15 AM
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I still don't know how this wasn't bigger news, but even Manafort's daughter described Trump and Manafort as up to shady shit together in her leaked text messages from last year:

"Dad and Trump are literally living in the same building and mom says they go up and down all day long hanging and plotting together."

and describes their relationship as "The most dangerous friendship in America,”

She seems nice though:

"I hope my dad pulls it off. Then I can sell my memoir with all his dirty secrets for a pretty penny."
  #2728  
Old 02-23-2018, 09:45 AM
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NY Times sez Gates is flipping. Possibly today.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/u...stigation.html

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A former top adviser to Donald J. Trump’s presidential campaign indicted by the special counsel was expected to plead guilty as soon as Friday afternoon, according to two people familiar with his plea agreement, a move that signals he is cooperating with the investigation into Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.
  #2729  
Old 02-23-2018, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
I still don't know how this wasn't bigger news, but even Manafort's daughter described Trump and Manafort as up to shady shit together in her leaked text messages from last year:

"Dad and Trump are literally living in the same building and mom says they go up and down all day long hanging and plotting together."

and describes their relationship as "The most dangerous friendship in America,”

She seems nice though:

"I hope my dad pulls it off. Then I can sell my memoir with all his dirty secrets for a pretty penny."
I'm going to guess that the obscure (by which I mean "completely unknown") website that dug up the texts and the fact that the news is only about 15 days old (I see a February 8 date in the story but no dateline) are why. Reading thru it tho, I have a hard time believing Manafort won't be pleading guilty very soon; no fucking way he (and his people) want things aired in public trial IMO.

Thank you for that link, eh. This is the first I've heard of those texts (and I spend a lot of time reading about this) and they are, if not bombshells, surely flashbang grenades.

ETA: The original article at Krypt3ia.com is even more devastating than the Huffpost article.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-23-2018 at 11:07 AM.
  #2730  
Old 02-23-2018, 11:12 AM
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Missed my edit window; there's a 2nd article at Krypt3ia
  #2731  
Old 02-23-2018, 11:13 AM
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I'm going to guess that the obscure (by which I mean "completely unknown") website that dug up the texts and the fact that the news is only about 15 days old (I see a February 8 date in the story but no dateline) are why. Reading thru it tho, I have a hard time believing Manafort won't be pleading guilty very soon; no fucking way he (and his people) want things aired in public trial IMO.

Thank you for that link, eh. This is the first I've heard of those texts (and I spend a lot of time reading about this) and they are, if not bombshells, surely flashbang grenades.

ETA: The original article at Krypt3ia.com is even more devastating than the Huffpost article.
Check out the year. It was February of 2017. These texts have been out for over a year now. And, as you note, I picked a few choice quotes, but there is more and it paints Manafort as a murderer for hire.
  #2732  
Old 02-23-2018, 11:25 AM
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Check out the year. It was February of 2017. These texts have been out for over a year now. And, as you note, I picked a few choice quotes, but there is more and it paints Manafort as a murderer for hire.
Okay, I went back and looked and it took me a couple of minutes to find it in the upper corner of the first image. It was squished so much on my screen that I couldn't read the text until I clicked the image and it embiggened itself.

In that case, I'd guess that Mueller's folks have known about this for months now; they really don't seem like the type of people that ignore details.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-23-2018 at 11:25 AM.
  #2733  
Old 02-23-2018, 11:32 AM
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I mean, when your own daughter states:

"Don’t fool yourself. That money we have is blood money.”

“You know he has killed people in Ukraine? Knowingly. As a tactic to outrage the world and get focus on Ukraine. Remember when there were all those deaths taking place. A while back. About a year ago. Revolts and what not. Do you know whose strategy that was to cause that, to send those people out and get them slaughtered."

You're probably in a lot of trouble. So, either he flips because that's his only option, or he doesn't flip because he's scared of being killed.
  #2734  
Old 02-23-2018, 11:52 AM
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AFAIK, the first rule is still "You do not talk about Fight Club".

If Manafort has any brain in his head at all, he'll know that even if he has to plead guilty, opening his mouth is not an option if he wants to live past his next birthday; he knows what kind of people he's been dealing with.
  #2735  
Old 02-23-2018, 12:09 PM
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NY Times sez Gates is flipping. Possibly today.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/u...stigation.html
Definitely today; 2pm in fact:
Quote:
Rick Gates is set to appear at 2 p.m. at the federal courthouse in Washington for a plea agreement hearing. A court filing shows Gates has agreed to plea to charges accusing him of conspiring against the U.S. government related to fraud and unregistered foreign lobbying as well as lying to federal authorities.
  #2736  
Old 02-23-2018, 01:58 PM
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Yup, it's officially official!

Two counts - conspiracy and lying to the FBI. That's quite a bit down from what was filed yesterday...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.fd5f46ab7aa0
  #2737  
Old 02-23-2018, 02:01 PM
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Yup, it's officially official!

Two counts - conspiracy and lying to the FBI. That's quite a bit down from what was filed yesterday...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.fd5f46ab7aa0
IANAL but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Gate's lawyers need more time to look at yesterday's charges before they'd advise him to plead (or not plead) guilty to all that as well.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-23-2018 at 02:01 PM.
  #2738  
Old 02-23-2018, 02:05 PM
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IANAL but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Gate's lawyers need more time to look at yesterday's charges before they'd advise him to plead (or not plead) guilty to all that as well.
Oh granted I'm skimming articles between meetings at work, but I took it to mean that Gates took a plea deal and is gonna do like 6 months at Country Club Prisons Inc in exchange for the goods on Manafort and probably Trump*




* Seeing as how Gates was deputy campaign muckity-muck and deputy inaugural committee thingy ... or how the Post puts it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington Post
Unlike Manafort, who resigned from his position as Trumpís campaign chairman in August 2016, Gates remained with the campaign until Election Day, working at one point for the Republican National Committee. He then joined the inaugural committee as deputy chairman. Once Trump took office, Gates helped launch an allied group to support the presidentís agenda and was a regular visitor at the White House.
  #2739  
Old 02-23-2018, 02:19 PM
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Oh granted I'm skimming articles between meetings at work, but I took it to mean that Gates took a plea deal and is gonna do like 6 months at Country Club Prisons Inc in exchange for the goods on Manafort and probably Trump*




* Seeing as how Gates was deputy campaign muckity-muck and deputy inaugural committee thingy ... or how the Post puts it:
Thump says he never met the man and doesn't have any idea who he is... in three... two... one...
  #2740  
Old 02-23-2018, 02:25 PM
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It'll be Sarah first: "Rick Gates wasn't even an official 'official' member of the campaign. He was just some kid who came in occasionally and made copies for people. He was friends with that Papadapolous kid, I think and that's the only reason he was there."

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-23-2018 at 02:25 PM.
  #2741  
Old 02-23-2018, 03:46 PM
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It'll be Sarah first: "Rick Gates wasn't even an official 'official' member of the campaign. He was just some kid who came in occasionally and made copies for people. He was friends with that Papadapolous kid, I think and that's the only reason he was there."
"That Manaford dude brought him in. And the Mantaroo dude we barely knew. It's not like Mr. Trump and Mr. Manswell lived in the same building a floor apart and his daughter noted they spent oodles of time together or anything!"
  #2742  
Old 02-23-2018, 04:29 PM
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ďYou know he has killed people in Ukraine? Knowingly. As a tactic to outrage the world and get focus on Ukraine. Remember when there were all those deaths taking place. A while back. About a year ago. Revolts and what not. Do you know whose strategy that was to cause that, to send those people out and get them slaughtered."
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  #2743  
Old 02-23-2018, 08:59 PM
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Back when Manafort was working on the Ukrainian Presidential campaign, his candidate’s strategy included poisoning his opponent with dioxin. Hillary should consider herself lucky.

This Russia / Ukraine stuff is nasty and dirty to an extent that we just don’t see here in the USA, despite the people that try to equivocate it.
  #2744  
Old 02-23-2018, 09:13 PM
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Back when Manafort was working on the Ukrainian Presidential campaign, his candidate’s strategy included poisoning his opponent with dioxin. Hillary should consider herself lucky.

This Russia / Ukraine stuff is nasty and dirty to an extent that we just don’t see here in the USA, despite the people that try to equivocate it.
I take it you haven't read Paul Manafort's daughter Amanda's text messages yet? Here's a couple:
Quote:
Don't fool yourself. That money we have is blood money.
Quote:
You know he has killed people in Ukraine? Knowingly. As a tactic to outrage the world and get focus on Ukraine. Remember when there were all those deaths taking place. A while back. About a year ago. Revolts and what not. Do you know whose strategy that was to cause that, to send those people out and get them slaughtered.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-23-2018 at 09:17 PM.
  #2745  
Old 02-23-2018, 09:51 PM
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I take it you haven't read Paul Manafort's daughter Amanda's text messages yet? Here's a couple:
Wonder if Mueller has talked to her yet?
  #2746  
Old 02-23-2018, 10:09 PM
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I take it you haven't read Paul Manafort's daughter Amanda's text messages yet? Here's a couple:
I read those about a year ago when they were first published, may have even posted a link around here someplace. I thought they were extremely insightful into showing who Manafort & Co. really are. But I think it was just too soon... most people simply weren't ready to believe that the corruption was that deep and ugly -- let alone that it reached into the White House.

Ann Hedonia's comments above are well made.
  #2747  
Old 02-24-2018, 01:24 AM
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The lie that Gates was indicted for involves a dinner meeting at which Ukraine was discussed. The meeting was with a lobbyist and Congressman Dana Rohrabacher.
The money laundering also involves ex-Austrian Chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...guilty-n849256
  #2748  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen View Post
The lie that Gates was indicted for involves a dinner meeting at which Ukraine was discussed. The meeting was with a lobbyist and Congressman Dana Rohrabacher.
The money laundering also involves ex-Austrian Chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...guilty-n849256
That is a very good write-up and I would encourage everyone to read it; there's a lot of details laid out.
  #2749  
Old 02-24-2018, 05:41 AM
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Mueller is relentless, methodical and committed to his view of America as a Marine, Public Official and Law Man.

Trump is going to be Trump - no looking back, no self-reflection, pure Id and counter punching.

Could the two be more opposite? What is this, fucking Shakespeare? I don’t want to live in Richard III. Or High Noon.

Mueller, per above, is NOT political - heck, he’s a lifelong conservative and Republican. But he takes on cases to make those cases, in service to his duty and America. If he thinks Trump is dirty, he wants to take him down. He has to know that the only way any action could be taken on any indictments he hands down towards Trump would be if Dems have more power. So he has to be timing his findings to happen based on what is going on in the election.

So this is Shakespearean Chess. Chilling. Since Trump is the Great Distractor, who wants to guess what he would do to take attention away from the Russia investigation? Start a war? Launch a missile? Anyone believe those are not on the table? :shudder:

Last edited by WordMan; 02-24-2018 at 05:42 AM.
  #2750  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by WordMan View Post
So this is Shakespearean Chess. Chilling. Since Trump is the Great Distractor, who wants to guess what he would do to take attention away from the Russia investigation? Start a war? Launch a missile? Anyone believe those are not on the table? :shudder:
Oh, they're on the table. He's said we may have to move to Phase 2 with N. Korea, which (and I want you to notice that this is a direct quote from the president) "may be very, very unfortunate for the world."
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