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  #201  
Old 08-13-2016, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Kinthalis View Post
Really don't understand. This game is moving massive numbers on PC with over 200k concurrent users.

It just doesn't make sense for them to have a shoddy release like this.
The impression they're giving through their twitter account is that they're basically completely overwhelmed by the response and can't quite handle it in their current state.

They just yesterday more than doubled their staff size by adding a (comparatively) massive QA team. (Or, Sony made them do that, I don't know. )
  #202  
Old 08-13-2016, 12:04 AM
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I disagree; at least in my case. I like the idea of setting up a home base on some interesting world I'd discovered - Ubaltopia, on the Planet Galena.
Why not have a ship as a base? Collect materials, bits of transporters you've destroyed, and gradually build a ship capable of interstellar travel, complete with crafting rooms, defense systems, a hangar for your planet exploration shuttle, etc etc.
  #203  
Old 08-13-2016, 12:05 AM
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From above:

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a majority of players are bumping up against a host of technical issues rendering the game unplayable in its current state.
I mean, how do they figure it's "the majority of players"? It's more players than it ought to be but I have no idea what proportion of players it is. What inside information do they have?
  #204  
Old 08-13-2016, 12:08 AM
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Yes, I've seen YouTube videos with giant monoliths of gold.
The monoliths I've only seen as Heridium, in every video I've seen and on every planet I've visited.

There are these giant lumps that appear, and those can be several different metals. But I am pretty sure there are no gold monoliths.

Edit: You know, I"m starting to think I maybe remember an Aluminum monolith, so maybe I'm all wrong about this.

Last edited by Frylock; 08-13-2016 at 12:11 AM.
  #205  
Old 08-13-2016, 12:11 AM
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But the UI functions exactly like the consoles! A UI that is essentially a MOUSE UI for a gamepad functions exactly the same when using a mouse complete with having to hold down the mouse button and waiting for a stupid circle to fill in order to select something. That clumsy shit is fine for the handicap of a gamepad, but not for a mouse and keybaord.
Yeah the hold-the-mouse-button thing is supremely annoying, and even more so when I quit the game and keep on "holding down the button" on Windows and in browsers etc!

They better fix this up in a patch. Please I hope. Also, recentering the cursor when going to a new tab/screen/whatever--oh god why?!
  #206  
Old 08-13-2016, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
The monoliths I've only seen as Heridium, in every video I've seen and on every planet I've visited.

There are these giant lumps that appear, and those can be several different metals. But I am pretty sure there are no gold monoliths.

Edit: You know, I"m starting to think I maybe remember an Aluminum monolith, so maybe I'm all wrong about this.
There are Aluminium and Nickel monuments, but I think Gold and Emeril are only in the giant lumps.
  #207  
Old 08-13-2016, 02:01 AM
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Stupid question from a person who hasn't had a console since the Atari 2600...

I've got the PC version, and I can tell it's still optimised for gamepads. Can I get and use any gamepad that's compatible with Windows, like the XBone's wireless? I'd assume so, but the game documentation is nonexistent, and I suppose this is a "you dummy" question anyway.
  #208  
Old 08-13-2016, 04:29 AM
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I'm enjoying it so far - it's exactly what I thought it was going to be, I quite like walking simulator games, and there's enormous potential for you to create your own story.

I'll be interested to see what the expansions are like.
  #209  
Old 08-13-2016, 04:59 AM
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Yeah the hold-the-mouse-button thing is supremely annoying, and even more so when I quit the game and keep on "holding down the button" on Windows and in browsers etc!

They better fix this up in a patch. Please I hope. Also, recentering the cursor when going to a new tab/screen/whatever--oh god why?!
The hold the button thing is annoying in consoles as well. I've only become aware of it recently, The Witcher 3 maybe. What is the point of it? Is it to protect against accidental button presses? I think it should be gone from all games, not just PC games.
  #210  
Old 08-13-2016, 07:16 AM
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Call me cynical, but I can see a simple explanation for the host of rabid fanboys in online discussions.
  #211  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:15 AM
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The game is clearly unfinished on both the PS4 and the PC, although the PC seems to have got the rougher deal for now. Beyond crashing issues (which I haven't experienced on the PS4 but there are a lot of people saying they've had to deal with) there's things like the non-existent multiplayer and dodgy texture work on things like water that makes you feel that they decided on a date, probably pushed by Sony, slipped a bit but then decided to release no matter what. That's the only explanation I can come up with to explain the huge game-changing day one patch.

I'm enjoying the PS4 version for now. I may pick the PC version up in a sale if they firstly sort it out and secondly if any interesting additions get added, but either the developers or the community.

But for now ... I'm enjoying it but don't really know why. And I have no idea how long that will last. It really is going to need some of the new features they have discussed, including adding in stuff that was discussed beforehand but never made it into the final product.
  #212  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:16 AM
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The hold the button thing is annoying in consoles as well. I've only become aware of it recently, The Witcher 3 maybe. What is the point of it? Is it to protect against accidental button presses? I think it should be gone from all games, not just PC games.
That's the only reason I can think of. The Division does the same thing.
  #213  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by galen ubal View Post
Stupid question from a person who hasn't had a console since the Atari 2600...

I've got the PC version, and I can tell it's still optimised for gamepads. Can I get and use any gamepad that's compatible with Windows, like the XBone's wireless? I'd assume so, but the game documentation is nonexistent, and I suppose this is a "you dummy" question anyway.
Yep. most games now a days, unless designed solely with mouse and keyboard in mind (for which there exists the Steam controller) support any gamepad that will connect to your PC.


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Call me cynical, but I can see a simple explanation for the host of rabid fanboys in online discussions.
Don't leave us hanging!
  #214  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:45 AM
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Not sure why you'd be angry, I mean how it does it affect you?
Have you ever been angry when a really stupid movie comes out that's been overhyped, and the reviews come out and say it's bad and not what it promised to be and has all sorts of problems, but people ignore that and go see it anyway due to the hype?

What if it was up against other movies that had merit and were small projects with similar appeal but higher quality and those movies withered because all the money was going to the super hyped one?

I normally wouldn't care very much, but it's always sad to me to see when advertising/hype completely takes something over. We'd all like for things to be a meritocracy and not simply a battle of marketing budgets. If this game was a $20 game with 30,000 concurrent users on day one - like a lot of other niche indie games with fun ideas like, say, Starbound, Rimworld, Rust, 7 days to die, Don't Starve, etc. it would've been fine.

But instead, Sony's marketing department got ahold of it and suddenly this game that should be a $20 indie title is a full blown $60 title. And despite this it explodes anyway, having one of the biggest launches ever on steam by concurrent numbers, higher than a lot of legit AAA games with broad mass appeal and not that far behind behemoths like Grand Theft Auto 5.

And it's not like it turned out to be great and exactly what everyone wanted. The user ratings are very poor. Features were flat out lied about. Hints that the final stages of the game at the center of the galaxy were going to be this amazing thing that no one should spoil were misleading. It's a technical mess (not just on PC, the damn thing runs on like 50 FOV on PS4 to keep the frame rate acceptable) because despite having an AAA marketing budget and an AAA price and an AAA timeframe to develop the game, no one bothered to hire QA testers and put out AAA quality.

The defenders treat it like it's a $20 niche indie game. Dismissing all the flaws by saying "what did you expect, it's a 15 man development team!" leaving out the part about how a 15 man development team doesn't get to charge $60 for games. They want Terraria/Don't Starve/etc-level acceptance of limitations but GTA-5 level price and launch success.

And... I just don't understand why people allowed themselves to be hoodwinked. The developer was suspiciously vague about pre-launch promises. The developer had no track record and yet everyone expected this mind-blowing game - at least with Spore we had a developer with a track record. We had Sony using heavy-handed tactics to suppress early footage and early reviews and even early discussion and not allow any reviews. When does that ever speak well to the quality of the product? And then we even had 3 days after the console launch to see that it wasn't what it was cracked up to be and it was at least disappointing. And yet after that, we still had a whole lot of people who preordered and kept their preorders. Why?

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As for me, I've never pre-ordered a game but I pre-ordered this because I thought the concept sounded cool and I was in a bit of a gaming slump at the time. Maybe there were just lots and lots of people who thought the concept sounded cool. The difference between that and something like The Witcher is that The Witcher is a known quantity. The Witcher 3 was a sequel to a game that some people like and some don't. That automatically excludes a large number of gamers from ordering it because they already know they aren't interested. NMS had a cool sounding concept to pique gamer's interest and little enough actual detail that gamers would fill in the blanks with wishful thinking.
What advantage did you get by preordering this game? You couldn't even preload the thing. I truly don't understand the preorder mentality. I understand kickstarter backing - if you don't do it, the game may not be made at all. But whether or not you preordered this game had no impact on its development cycle at all. You received no advantages for doing so. No discount or anything. So why do it? Why not see if it's actually any good before committing $60 to it?

It's hard to believe anyone could be in a "gaming slump" that they needed to preorder a new game to cure. Aside from the fact that preordering a game doesn't actually allow you to play it, there are thousands of amazing games out right now for PC. You could find something better, something cheaper, something that was a known quantity with reviews and gameplay footage and something you could actually play now.

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If this ends up being a disaster for Hello Games then I think they can blame Sony for jumping on it and themselves for not seeing the adverse affect the hype would ultimately have.
It won't be a disaster because they've already made tens of millions of dollars off of it. Who cares anymore? The marketing team delivered masterfully - which means it doesn't matter that the development team didn't.
  #215  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:56 AM
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We've got some procedurally generated reviews for the game which is not surprising. My friend dug around on metacritic and identified a pattern - there would be blocks of 20 or 30 user reviews in a row in which the account was created just a minute prior to posting that review, has no reviews except their positive 10/10 no man's sky review. Incidentally, you get a lot of "Everyone who doesn't like this just expected a stupid call of duty game!" meme a whole lot in the cult-like defense of the game.

So these awful user reviews (4.9 on metacritic, 56% on steam) are already with all of the fake astroturfed reviews mixed in. Steam reviews work like rottentomatoes (positive or negative), except since gaming journalism has set stupid expectations, we only use the 40-100 range and not the 0-100 range like movies do, so 56% is sort of like a rottentomatoes score of 12-20%.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 08-13-2016 at 08:57 AM.
  #216  
Old 08-13-2016, 09:36 AM
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The PC version has also been packet sniffed showing that no location data is sent back to servers to allow for multiplayer.

It is pretty clear now that if it was ever there it has been disabled.
  #217  
Old 08-13-2016, 09:50 AM
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The PC version has also been packet sniffed showing that no location data is sent back to servers to allow for multiplayer.

It is pretty clear now that if it was ever there it has been disabled.
Apparently, the PS4 retail copy in Europe had a sticker with a PEGI 7 or something like that rating... but if you peeled it off, out came a PEGI 13 rating with a disclaimer: "Online experience might vary".

Last edited by Kinthalis; 08-13-2016 at 09:50 AM.
  #218  
Old 08-13-2016, 09:50 AM
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Quoth Kinthalis:

Don't leave us hanging!
I thought it was pretty obvious, but to be clear, I suspect that a significant fraction of the rabid fanboys are paid for it. I mean, if your marketing consists mostly of buzz, then you pay for buzz.
  #219  
Old 08-13-2016, 09:55 AM
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Paying people in India and other low wage places to astroturf online hype/reviews/anything is remarkably cheap. A few thousand dollars can buy a ton of astroturfing.

But I think there's lots of legit fanboyism going on too. People have hyped themselves up for years over this and invested a decent chunk of change - there's a strong incentive to justify your behavior if you're not introspective about it.


I just had a thought. Since they were delaying the game so long anyway, they should've delayed the game longer and made it a launch title with PSVR. It would've made a good VR title, the fact that it isn't really what it's cracked up to be would be masked by people experiencing it in a new way and having that make it feel revolutionary. VR would've made it seem closer to the revolutionary and unique experience it wanted to be.

I guess they'd have to make it run a whole lot better - VR demands higher frame rates and higher FOV than they use by quite a large margin.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 08-13-2016 at 09:58 AM.
  #220  
Old 08-13-2016, 11:11 AM
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I was mildly interested in NMS, despite having paid no attention to the hype. I saw a trailer recently and it seemed interesting, and it happened to be coming out soon. But it also seemed to be a 6 hour game. After 6 hours, you're just doing the same thing over and over, with no purpose or goal. A friend who bought it on PS4 loves it, but basically confirmed that suspicion.

Still, I watched a stream, and I wanted to try it. I wanted to see how varied the planets actually were. So I bought it for PC. It crashes on startup 100% of the time (which, I now see from checking online, is very, very common). So I got a refund. I'll wait six months, however long it takes to get discounted. This game isn't worth $60. I'm glad the crashes broke the spell so I could get out of the purchase.
  #221  
Old 08-13-2016, 11:28 AM
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I was mildly interested in NMS, despite having paid no attention to the hype. I saw a trailer recently and it seemed interesting, and it happened to be coming out soon. But it also seemed to be a 6 hour game. After 6 hours, you're just doing the same thing over and over, with no purpose or goal. A friend who bought it on PS4 loves it, but basically confirmed that suspicion.

Still, I watched a stream, and I wanted to try it. I wanted to see how varied the planets actually were. So I bought it for PC. It crashes on startup 100% of the time (which, I now see from checking online, is very, very common). So I got a refund. I'll wait six months, however long it takes to get discounted. This game isn't worth $60. I'm glad the crashes broke the spell so I could get out of the purchase.
Out of curiosity, what CPU do you have?
  #222  
Old 08-13-2016, 11:43 AM
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Apparently, the PS4 retail copy in Europe had a sticker with a PEGI 7 or something like that rating... but if you peeled it off, out came a PEGI 13 rating with a disclaimer: "Online experience might vary".
I'm in Europe and that isn't exactly how it went down.

The Collector's Edition, which is a very small percentage of copies, had the sticker. My normal version has the PEGI 7 logo and no mention of online play. Sony is saying that the collector's edition was a printing error.
  #223  
Old 08-13-2016, 11:48 AM
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PEGI information on the back of a Nordic PS4 standard version of No Man's Sky:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2346328/nms.jpg
  #224  
Old 08-13-2016, 12:13 PM
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cave depth, complexity and frequency
I nearly got lost in one last night!
  #225  
Old 08-13-2016, 12:20 PM
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The monoliths I've only seen as Heridium, in every video I've seen and on every planet I've visited.

There are these giant lumps that appear, and those can be several different metals. But I am pretty sure there are no gold monoliths.

Edit: You know, I"m starting to think I maybe remember an Aluminum monolith, so maybe I'm all wrong about this.
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There are Aluminium and Nickel monuments, but I think Gold and Emeril are only in the giant lumps.
I did run into a golden monolith but it contained Emeril rather than Gold. Another planet had immense cylinders of Gold, though.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 08-13-2016 at 12:24 PM.
  #226  
Old 08-13-2016, 04:00 PM
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If you need to mine a monolith, create a 'pocket' in it with your mining laser and then jet-pack inside. The metal will shield you from environmental effects like radiation and sentinels will ignore you which lets you mine them with impunity.
  #227  
Old 08-13-2016, 05:34 PM
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Paying people in India and other low wage places to astroturf online hype/reviews/anything is remarkably cheap. A few thousand dollars can buy a ton of astroturfing.

But I think there's lots of legit fanboyism going on too. People have hyped themselves up for years over this and invested a decent chunk of change - there's a strong incentive to justify your behavior if you're not introspective about it.


I just had a thought. Since they were delaying the game so long anyway, they should've delayed the game longer and made it a launch title with PSVR. It would've made a good VR title, the fact that it isn't really what it's cracked up to be would be masked by people experiencing it in a new way and having that make it feel revolutionary. VR would've made it seem closer to the revolutionary and unique experience it wanted to be.

I guess they'd have to make it run a whole lot better - VR demands higher frame rates and higher FOV than they use by quite a large margin.
How cheap we talkin?

'cause I wouldn't mind astroturfing myself a little bit.

"Wow kinthalis, you truly are a visionary. I've been folllowing your posts closely and every time you inspire and delight!"

Oh, jeez, thank you very much poster I've never seen before!
  #228  
Old 08-13-2016, 07:31 PM
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Have you ever been angry when a really stupid movie comes out that's been overhyped, and the reviews come out and say it's bad and not what it promised to be and has all sorts of problems, but people ignore that and go see it anyway due to the hype?

What if it was up against other movies that had merit and were small projects with similar appeal but higher quality and those movies withered because all the money was going to the super hyped one?
No, I really don't care what response a movie or any other piece of entertainment gets. Why would I?


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What advantage did you get by preordering this game? You couldn't even preload the thing. I truly don't understand the preorder mentality. I understand kickstarter backing - if you don't do it, the game may not be made at all. But whether or not you preordered this game had no impact on its development cycle at all. You received no advantages for doing so. No discount or anything. So why do it? Why not see if it's actually any good before committing $60 to it?
I pre-ordered it because I knew I would be getting it anyway, and it saved me a trip to the game shop when it launched, that is all, simple convenience. I don't pay a lot of attention to reviews and have never held off buying a game while waiting to see what other people think of it. If it interests me I'll get it, if it doesn't I won't. I wasn't looking for an advantage or to get ahead of the game or anything like that, I just knew I wanted it, and ordered it. What's so hard to understand?

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It's hard to believe anyone could be in a "gaming slump" that they needed to preorder a new game to cure. Aside from the fact that preordering a game doesn't actually allow you to play it, there are thousands of amazing games out right now for PC. You could find something better, something cheaper, something that was a known quantity with reviews and gameplay footage and something you could actually play now.
First I don't like playing games on the PC. Settle down, it's just a personal preference, get over it.

I was buying a few games and NMS was one of them, the fact I wouldn't be able to play it immediately wasn't a problem. I was in a game purchasing mood and it was one of the games I purchased.



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It won't be a disaster because they've already made tens of millions of dollars off of it. Who cares anymore? The marketing team delivered masterfully - which means it doesn't matter that the development team didn't.
It will be a disaster if they want to continue making games but have this debacle hanging over them.
  #229  
Old 08-13-2016, 07:56 PM
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Have you ever been angry when a really stupid movie comes out that's been overhyped, and the reviews come out and say it's bad and not what it promised to be and has all sorts of problems, but people ignore that and go see it anyway due to the hype?
Honestly, no, I can't say that I have.

What if it was up against other movies that had merit and were small projects with similar appeal but higher quality and those movies withered because all the money was going to the super hyped one?

I normally wouldn't care very much, but it's always sad to me to see when advertising/hype completely takes something over. We'd all like for things to be a meritocracy and not simply a battle of marketing budgets. If this game was a $20 game with 30,000 concurrent users on day one - like a lot of other niche indie games with fun ideas like, say, Starbound, Rimworld, Rust, 7 days to die, Don't Starve, etc. it would've been fine.

But instead, Sony's marketing department got ahold of it and suddenly this game that should be a $20 indie title is a full blown $60 title. And despite this it explodes anyway, having one of the biggest launches ever on steam by concurrent numbers, higher than a lot of legit AAA games with broad mass appeal and not that far behind behemoths like Grand Theft Auto 5.

And it's not like it turned out to be great and exactly what everyone wanted. The user ratings are very poor. Features were flat out lied about. Hints that the final stages of the game at the center of the galaxy were going to be this amazing thing that no one should spoil were misleading. It's a technical mess (not just on PC, the damn thing runs on like 50 FOV on PS4 to keep the frame rate acceptable) because despite having an AAA marketing budget and an AAA price and an AAA timeframe to develop the game, no one bothered to hire QA testers and put out AAA quality.

The defenders treat it like it's a $20 niche indie game. Dismissing all the flaws by saying "what did you expect, it's a 15 man development team!" leaving out the part about how a 15 man development team doesn't get to charge $60 for games. They want Terraria/Don't Starve/etc-level acceptance of limitations but GTA-5 level price and launch success.

Quote:
And then we even had 3 days after the console launch to see that it wasn't what it was cracked up to be and it was at least disappointing. And yet after that, we still had a whole lot of people who preordered and kept their preorders. Why?
Because a lot of people, like me, looked at the gameplay footage and said "That still looks fun, I want to play it anyway." And it is, and I'm enjoying it.
  #230  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:03 PM
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Sorry, there was an issue with the formatting there and I missed the edit window. Paragraphs 2-6 are SenorBeef's words, not mine.
  #231  
Old 08-13-2016, 10:22 PM
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Steam peaked around 140k users today. Given that today was a Saturday, the day after launch, you'd expect it to meet or exceed its Friday numbers. But that's a steep decline. Probably because hundreds of thousands of refunds were issued.
  #232  
Old 08-13-2016, 11:01 PM
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Steam peaked around 140k users today. Given that today was a Saturday, the day after launch, you'd expect it to meet or exceed its Friday numbers. But that's a steep decline. Probably because hundreds of thousands of refunds were issued.
Or - and this is equally likely - people have shit to do on the day during Saturday?

I can't speak for the US, but the average age of gamers in Australia is about 34, so statistically they're likely to be doing Family Stuff or playing sport or something on Saturday.

If literally hundreds of thousands of people had refunded their copy of the game, I'd expect one of the major and reputable gaming outlets to have a story on it. I haven't seen that story yet. Not saying it isn't true, but I'd suggest there's probably other factors at play too.

I agree this game has been way, way overhyped - but I also know the marketing-led hype stopped months ago and the residual has been carried on by the fans - many of whom are not doing anyone any favours by getting their undies in a twist over (IMHO) trivial stuff like exactly how multiplayer the game really is.

Sure, the developer hasn't done himself any favours by coming across as a bit unspecific on some subjects; I understand his desire to want to preserve a sense of wonder and magic, but I also think there's a time to say (for example), "Look, at launch we're not going to be implementing any sort of multiplayer mechanic but it's on The List for further down the track once we see how the sales numbers are and what would actually be involved in doing it."

Let's be completely honest here - let's say that it was actually possible to meet another player. So what? As the developer has said, the odds of it happening are astronomical. So assuming people did, I'd suggest you'd get a couple of YouTube videos and the occasional Reddit thread about it and not much else.

IMHO it's really, really not a huge deal and certainly doesn't warrant the "HOW VERY DARE YOU NOT IMPLEMENT THIS THING!" reaction it's been getting.

The game definitely isn't perfect and still has an unpolished feel about it, but so far I'm enjoying it. The real question isn't "Is it fun now?", it's "How fun will this be after I've been to 100 planets?" or "What updates and features will get added to the game after everyone has visited dozens of planets?"

Take Civ V - when it came out it was widely regarded as incomplete, lacking, and not as good as Civ IV by many people; it took some expansions to get it up to the "Super Excellent" level.

While I wish developers got things right out of the gate, I'm also glad we live in a world where it's possible for developers say "You know what? We will add base-building to this; we'll make the ships customisable", if they decide to go down that road.

The point is, it's not an awful game, no matter how much some people have apparently decided it should for some reason.
  #233  
Old 08-14-2016, 01:25 AM
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I find it deeply amusing. The reactions from the self-appointed guardians of the culture, not the game. I didn't think it looked interesting to me. If anybody has a problem with a game they bought, at least now they can easily get a refund. Progress.

As for accusations of astroturfing, that could be one guy doing that because he thinks his opinion is important. It's not, other than in a personal way. Neither is mine.

But by all means, please continue to pontificate. It's tasty, provided the bites are kept small.
  #234  
Old 08-14-2016, 02:58 AM
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Out of curiosity, what CPU do you have?
CPU? An i7 2600K. I think the issue might be that my video card is either just at, or just below, the minimum requirements. I really don't want to upgrade, but it's almost time.
  #235  
Old 08-14-2016, 03:43 AM
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Or - and this is equally likely - people have shit to do on the day during Saturday?
On what basis do you conclude that this is equally likely?

Concurrent game daily peak players is actually remarkably stable, but the peaks are typically on Saturday and Sunday with about 10-20% more players than the weekday peaks. Most games follow this pattern.

So people weren't too busy on Saturday to play GTA 5 or Civ 5 or Rocket League or hundreds of other games. But people are too busy on Saturday to play No Man's Sky.

Meanwhile, the game has terrible reviews and a whole lot of people have said they've refunded.

But you suppose that it's equally likely that there's a No-Man's-Sky-specific Saturday drop off in popularity because people are too busy for gaming which only applies to that game (meanwhile every other game sees a minor Saturday boost) than that Steam offers refunds and that people are using it on a game with poor reviews and widespread technical issues.

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If literally hundreds of thousands of people had refunded their copy of the game, I'd expect one of the major and reputable gaming outlets to have a story on it. I haven't seen that story yet. Not saying it isn't true, but I'd suggest there's probably other factors at play too.
Valve is a private company and has no obligation to release sales reports nor reports about refunds. It's against their interest to publicize refunds since it's likely to remind people that such an option exists and create a perception that everyone is doing it which would encourage more refunds. So where are these stories going to come from? If you want anecdotes you can go to any reddit thread about the game and see dozens of people talk about how they refunded it.

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I agree this game has been way, way overhyped - but I also know the marketing-led hype stopped months ago and the residual has been carried on by the fans - many of whom are not doing anyone any favours by getting their undies in a twist over (IMHO) trivial stuff like exactly how multiplayer the game really is.
Whether or not a game is multiplayer or not is not trivial. It wasn't so long ago that they were spinning the game as sort of an MMO. But yes, that's one of the more minor complaints.

The main complaint I've seen is that there's simply not much meat to the gameplay. After you go to 20 planets, you start seeing the pattern. Blue cat-headed-lizard turns into red lizard-headed-cat. There's not much of interest about the crafting and survival elements either. Survival is pretty easy - you just run around shooting your laser at whatever has a label on it and you'll survive just fine. There's not really any crafting, just upgrading your suit and ship. There's so little to do with the materials you gather that you end up selling most of it. And there's not any sort of even minecraft-level challenge to collecting resources. You don't have to delve into deep carve caves to grab uranium, you don't have to find specific animals that would process something like pearls. You just walk around the surface finding different nodes and lasering them, all the same. There might as well just be one resource type and you collect +1 of it every time you point your laser at a node.

The exploring gets repetitive fast, there's no challenge to the survival, there's no meaningful crafting, and the resource system is extremely samey and has very little gameplay challenge or variety. So for an explore-gather-survive game it's pretty much empty on those core components.

The space component isn't any better. Space combat has the complexity of an atari game, you just point at things and shoot. There's no galactic economy so it's not like you can play your own version of a pirate or merchant like you can in something like freelancer.

So even if the launch were honest, and there were no lies about multiplayer and no technical issues, the actual things that it purports to be are lacking. People are in the honeymoon phase now because a lot of people have said that the first 5 hours are fun, but it gets pretty repetitive after that, and because people really want to justify and like how much they invested in this game, both emotionally and financially. But this one is going to drop off the radar fast. It'll be trivially easy to demonstrate with the steam numbers in the coming weeks.
  #236  
Old 08-14-2016, 05:46 AM
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[QUOTE=SenorBeef;19553042]On what basis do you conclude that this is equally likely?[quote]

I'm being slightly facetious, but my point is that more than 100,000 people refunding a USD$60 game would mean that more than USD$600,000 in refunds were issued for one game in one morning/afternoon.

That's enormous so like I said, I'd expect at least one of the reputable gaming news outlets to have done something on it. Several of them have excellent journalists who aren't beholden to the games companies and are reading the same Reddit threads you are, so the fact they haven't written that story suggests that maybe, perhaps, you're reading a bit much into things at this stage.

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The main complaint I've seen is that there's simply not much meat to the gameplay... So even if the launch were honest, and there were no lies about multiplayer and no technical issues, the actual things that it purports to be are lacking. People are in the honeymoon phase now because a lot of people have said that the first 5 hours are fun, but it gets pretty repetitive after that, and because people really want to justify and like how much they invested in this game, both emotionally and financially. But this one is going to drop off the radar fast. It'll be trivially easy to demonstrate with the steam numbers in the coming weeks.
The thing is, Steam refunds are only good for two hours of gameplay. So you can't get to five hours and go "Well, this sucks" and refund it. It doesn't work like that. Obviously there will be people who played it, found it boring or confusing or it didn't work and refunded it; that's a given. Maybe in a few weeks the numbers will drop off, they almost certainly will. Deus Ex is out in about 10 days; that's going to be pretty popular too.

My gut feeling is No Man's Sky will be a game you load up, derp around in a bit for, do some stuff, name some things, admire the scenery then go and do something else. It's not particularly stressful, it's not difficult, but it's different. And in space.

Personally, I'm still enjoying the game and I've got considerably more than five hours in it. There's some issues - the inability to set your own waypoints is a huge one; I came across a crashed awesome ship but didn't have everything I needed to get it working so I went away to get it, came back and couldn't find the crash site again, for example.

The way I'm playing the game is I'm telling my own story as I go, creating a photolog of things I've seen and generally enjoying the "Alone in a strange universe" aspect. I get that's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's definitely mine. I'm enjoying the game as is and am looking forward to seeing what they do with it.

IMHO No Man's Sky it's basically a space-based version of games likeThe Long Dark, Stranded Deep and Subnautica; they all have essentially no plot and drop you in a hostile environment and say "Have fun! Try not to die horribly." Two of those games have almost no buzz at all and one of them is fairly well known partly because of it's unusual setting (Canada after the apocalypse).

My point is just because you're angry at the game's existence doesn't mean the game has no value whatsover for anyone else - or that anyone who is enjoying the game is a fanboy or somehow "invested" in it for some reason. People like different things; it's why now is one of the best times to be a PC Gamer and I say that as someone who's been gaming on PCs since the days when full-colour display screens were a luxury not available to everyone.

Last edited by Martini Enfield; 08-14-2016 at 05:47 AM.
  #237  
Old 08-14-2016, 05:57 AM
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Let's be completely honest here - let's say that it was actually possible to meet another player. So what? As the developer has said, the odds of it happening are astronomical. So assuming people did, I'd suggest you'd get a couple of YouTube videos and the occasional Reddit thread about it and not much else.
You're making a flawed argument that we often see against evolution: that an outcome is unlikely to occur out of pure random chance, so it won't happen. But people's movements are not caused by pure random chance. It's right there in the title of this thread: people would have written instructions how to use constellations and named planets as landmarks to reach Straightdopia.
  #238  
Old 08-14-2016, 07:40 AM
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Let's be completely honest here - let's say that it was actually possible to meet another player. So what? As the developer has said, the odds of it happening are astronomical. So assuming people did, I'd suggest you'd get a couple of YouTube videos and the occasional Reddit thread about it and not much else.
Also, you know, people exploring the game with their friends.
  #239  
Old 08-14-2016, 08:32 AM
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Personally, I'm still enjoying the game and I've got considerably more than five hours in it. There's some issues - the inability to set your own waypoints is a huge one; I came across a crashed awesome ship but didn't have everything I needed to get it working so I went away to get it, came back and couldn't find the crash site again, for example.
I don't have the game myself so I can't confirm but I heard you can tag structures and crashed ships with your scanner to keep their waypoints from vanishing. Others have had the same complaint so even if there's a way to do it it must be fairly hard to find out, though.
  #240  
Old 08-14-2016, 11:06 AM
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I'm being slightly facetious, but my point is that more than 100,000 people refunding a USD$60 game would mean that more than USD$600,000 in refunds were issued for one game in one morning/afternoon.

That's enormous so like I said, I'd expect at least one of the reputable gaming news outlets to have done something on it. Several of them have excellent journalists who aren't beholden to the games companies and are reading the same Reddit threads you are, so the fact they haven't written that story suggests that maybe, perhaps, you're reading a bit much into things at this stage.
How would anyone know the difference between 100,000 refunds and 100,000 people who just decided they weren't going to bother to play a game that they were so hyped up for that they preordered it? Valve's sales and refund information is private.

There is one small piece of evidence, but it doesn't show the scale - yesterday No Man's Sky dropped out of the top 100 best sellers on steam. That's a 24-hour rotating window of what games are selling best. Apparently refunds count against new purchases, so for some significant fraction refunds out-stripped day 1 purchases in order to make it disappear completely from the best seller's list. Whether that was 30,000 refunds and 25,000 sales or 300,000 refunds and 150,000 sales can't be determined from that information. But more refunds than day 1 sales is pretty huge. I doubt any other game has ever achieved that honor.

In fact, I wasn't aware that refunds counted against the top seller list simply because no other popular game has ever dropped off the top seller list day one. No game has had more refunds than day 1 purchases before. It's unprecedented.

But even if you're right - you're saying that people didn't refund but that they dislike the game so much that they're not playing it on day 2. Either way that's a pretty big deal. On day one, the game peaked at 212,231 simultaneous players. On day two at the same time, 141,035. That's a one third drop.

Unfortunately after a few months steamcharts stops keeping daily player counts and only keeps weekly and monthly averages, so I can only compare it to the day 1 and day 2 of recent games.

Starbound: 35,935; 53,921
Dead by Daylight: 12,774; 11,761
Total War: Warhammer 111,909; 104,413
Hearts of Iron 4: 40,632; 35,637
Doom: 28,297; 24,858

Those weren't data points I cherry picked to support my point, just going down the game list looking for stuff that came out recently. The pattern is that they either increase in day 2, or decrease slightly around 10% or less. I'm pretty sure that if I could see the exact data back to big hyped games like GTA 5 or Fallout 4 we'd see the same pattern. If we looked at less hyped games that didn't have a ton of preorders, we'd see more games actually increasing as word of mouth spread.

I watch player counts on game a lot because I'm curious about the life cycles of games - a big game getting a 30%+ drop on day two is unprecedented in my experience. Nothing I can recall even comes close.

So even if you say there's no proof of refunds - and because of the way valve doesn't have to report things, anecdotes are the best you'd ever see - it simply means that people missed their refund windows or were unaware that they could refund, and simply stopped playing it on day two. That isn't really any better for your case.

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The thing is, Steam refunds are only good for two hours of gameplay. So you can't get to five hours and go "Well, this sucks" and refund it. It doesn't work like that.
I mean, okay. I'm not sure if you're making a defense of the company's bottom line, but otherwise "getting a refund after an hour" and "wanting to refund after a few hours but couldn't, so stopped playing" both seem like very negative reactions to me.

Incidentally, people who've played this say that the first few hours are really fun and then it wears thin quickly after that. It may be a game that's somewhat resistant to the two hour refund window because of that. But it also means after a few days-weeks the player count will drop like a rock.

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Personally, I'm still enjoying the game and I've got considerably more than five hours in it.
Cool, good for you. All the things I'm saying aren't a personal attack or a plea to make you unhappy with the game. I'm sure there's a small niche for which this game scratches the itch despite the disappointment. But it's not a game with wide, mainstream appeal like the big blockbusters, but that's what the marketing managed to create.

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IMHO No Man's Sky it's basically a space-based version of games likeThe Long Dark, Stranded Deep and Subnautica; they all have essentially no plot and drop you in a hostile environment and say "Have fun! Try not to die horribly." Two of those games have almost no buzz at all and one of them is fairly well known partly because of it's unusual setting (Canada after the apocalypse).
I actually agree, that's exactly what this game is. It's a high-concept small-studio game with rough edges and niche appeal. You know what the difference is? Subnautica is $20, Stranded Deep is $15, and The Long Dark is $20. And they all had the decency to admit they were Early Access/in development/unfinished/rough games. If No Man's Sky was the same, it would be acknowledged as a success within its target demographic and would have a solid following.

But it didn't. It pretended to be a full AAA priced game with AAA marketing that was ready for retail release. Hence the massive disappointment.
  #241  
Old 08-14-2016, 12:59 PM
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I knwo I'm going to sound like a total conspiracy nutjob here, but does anyone else get the impression from how this game was launched, with Crysis-like limitations for PC users leading to nigh-unplayability, versus an at least functional PS4 version (with all of the limitations of a console game, but at least playability for a hugely-hyped game) that Sony's investment into this game might have included a push to keep the PC version deoptimized?

Given the huge numbers of players who have refunded this game on Steam, I have to imagine that at least some of them did so because of the technical problems, not because the game is sort of an empty open world survival game (which is just what it was marketed as.) It's got to push the mindset that console makers want to put in the minds of PC gamers that one reason to switch to consoles is that the games that release on console will be playable, and not the mess that this game is on anything other than top-of-the-line rigs.
  #242  
Old 08-14-2016, 02:50 PM
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If you need to mine a monolith, create a 'pocket' in it with your mining laser and then jet-pack inside. The metal will shield you from environmental effects like radiation and sentinels will ignore you which lets you mine them with impunity.
Or get on top and mine down, then out.
  #243  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:29 PM
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I knwo I'm going to sound like a total conspiracy nutjob here, but does anyone else get the impression from how this game was launched, with Crysis-like limitations for PC users leading to nigh-unplayability, versus an at least functional PS4 version (with all of the limitations of a console game, but at least playability for a hugely-hyped game) that Sony's investment into this game might have included a push to keep the PC version deoptimized?

Given the huge numbers of players who have refunded this game on Steam, I have to imagine that at least some of them did so because of the technical problems, not because the game is sort of an empty open world survival game (which is just what it was marketed as.) It's got to push the mindset that console makers want to put in the minds of PC gamers that one reason to switch to consoles is that the games that release on console will be playable, and not the mess that this game is on anything other than top-of-the-line rigs.
Well, it's not that great on PS4 either. Every single review I've seen (with the exception of playstation Life, or whatever ) Mentions numerous crashes on PS4.

I think this is just a team that needed more time to cook this baby, and given the Sony is spending all this money on marketing your game, you're probably going to invest most of the time optimizing for that platform.

I don't think Sony straight out said make sure the PC version is broken.
  #244  
Old 08-15-2016, 12:33 AM
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Man! Found a crashed ship but the planet it's on apparently does not have the resources needed to get it going. Then I had a hell of a time finding my old ship.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 08-15-2016 at 12:33 AM.
  #245  
Old 08-15-2016, 03:25 AM
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I don't have the game myself so I can't confirm but I heard you can tag structures and crashed ships with your scanner to keep their waypoints from vanishing. Others have had the same complaint so even if there's a way to do it it must be fairly hard to find out, though.
Apparently there is some way to do it (so I discovered after extensive searching online) but it's not at all clear and never mentioned in-game. The tutorial is not great, I have to say.

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How would anyone know the difference between 100,000 refunds and 100,000 people who just decided they weren't going to bother to play a game that they were so hyped up for that they preordered it? Valve's sales and refund information is private.

There is one small piece of evidence, but it doesn't show the scale - yesterday No Man's Sky dropped out of the top 100 best sellers on steam. That's a 24-hour rotating window of what games are selling best. Apparently refunds count against new purchases, so for some significant fraction refunds out-stripped day 1 purchases in order to make it disappear completely from the best seller's list. Whether that was 30,000 refunds and 25,000 sales or 300,000 refunds and 150,000 sales can't be determined from that information. But more refunds than day 1 sales is pretty huge. I doubt any other game has ever achieved that honor.

In fact, I wasn't aware that refunds counted against the top seller list simply because no other popular game has ever dropped off the top seller list day one. No game has had more refunds than day 1 purchases before. It's unprecedented.

But even if you're right - you're saying that people didn't refund but that they dislike the game so much that they're not playing it on day 2. Either way that's a pretty big deal. On day one, the game peaked at 212,231 simultaneous players. On day two at the same time, 141,035. That's a one third drop.
Might I suggest contacting your preferred gaming news outlet with this information and see what they say? If you're onto something newsworthy they're likely to be very happy to hear from you.

Last edited by Martini Enfield; 08-15-2016 at 03:25 AM.
  #246  
Old 08-15-2016, 06:54 AM
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Now...we keep hearing "In the universe" and "In the galaxy". And that joke clip in the beginning of the thread insinuates you can name other galaxies, but the "goal" is to get to the center of the galaxy.

If each player started off in his own galaxy, wouldn't there be about 3 galaxies for each person on earth? So yeah...running into another player is rare. So rare I don't care if its a con.

Hopefully its just one galaxy and i hope the uploaded info on named stuff is going into one database.
  #247  
Old 08-15-2016, 07:08 AM
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Might I suggest contacting your preferred gaming news outlet with this information and see what they say? If you're onto something newsworthy they're likely to be very happy to hear from you.
I don't understand what you're trying to get at. Are you suggesting I'm making things up as some sort of conspiracy theorist because the specific things I'm saying aren't on the front page of ign? Valve won't release the actual numbers of refunds, but the number of people playing are objective and factually true. And there are plenty of news stories about the disappointment and backlash.
  #248  
Old 08-15-2016, 08:47 AM
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I don't understand what you're trying to get at. Are you suggesting I'm making things up as some sort of conspiracy theorist because the specific things I'm saying aren't on the front page of ign? Valve won't release the actual numbers of refunds, but the number of people playing are objective and factually true. And there are plenty of news stories about the disappointment and backlash.
No, I'm saying you've clearly put a lot of thought into this and if you love gaming as much as you say you do, then it's a story that someone reputable (I hesitate to offer suggestions because everyone has their own idea of who would qualify) might actually be interested in.

Most of the stories about the backlash have been based around "angry people on Reddit" and "Crap Steam reviews" - which is not the same as "100,000 people stopped playing this game on day two", even though that's actually a stronger story than "NERD RAGE ON THE INTERNETS!"
  #249  
Old 08-15-2016, 09:05 AM
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It's at the top of this list, but that's sorted by "relevance", which doesn't really mean anything. It *could* mean that it's sorted by sales, but it could just as easily be sorted by "things we want to sell".

I couldn't find a top 100 list, SenorBeef, is there a specific list you're looking at?

The "peak today" is 127,251. There's no real big new competition at the moment. I wonder how many players something like GTA V or Fallout 4 had at the end of their first week.
  #250  
Old 08-15-2016, 09:15 AM
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I knwo I'm going to sound like a total conspiracy nutjob here, but does anyone else get the impression from how this game was launched, with Crysis-like limitations for PC users leading to nigh-unplayability, versus an at least functional PS4 version (with all of the limitations of a console game, but at least playability for a hugely-hyped game) that Sony's investment into this game might have included a push to keep the PC version deoptimized?

Given the huge numbers of players who have refunded this game on Steam, I have to imagine that at least some of them did so because of the technical problems, not because the game is sort of an empty open world survival game (which is just what it was marketed as.) It's got to push the mindset that console makers want to put in the minds of PC gamers that one reason to switch to consoles is that the games that release on console will be playable, and not the mess that this game is on anything other than top-of-the-line rigs.
I honestly believe that the PS4 was prioritised to the point that the PC version was very much neglected. Why they didn't delay the launch further is a good question, probably as they anticipated middling reviews for the PS4 version and so didn't want to harm sales.

Threads on NeoGAF have been interesting. There's people datamining the PC version and one of the first things to come out was that it was compiled at 3am on the day of release. This would explain why there was no preloading and shows that they were probably desperately trying to fix stuff at the last minute.

There is now a thread there specifically for the results of the datamining. Some very weird stuff has turned up, but the strangest of all seems to be references to Unity, the Game Engine that gets a rough deal with a lot of people. It is possible that they had source access and have forked it in some way to use elements and then base their own engine on it. Or it might just be a coincidence with naming.
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