Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 08-30-2016, 02:24 PM
K364's Avatar
K364 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,787
Auctions like

Code:
  1S, pass,  INT, pass
  2C, pass,  ...
can be passed
  #52  
Old 08-30-2016, 04:03 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by K364 View Post
Auctions like

Code:
  1S, pass,  INT, pass
  2C, pass,  ...
can be passed
Yes, that's giving suit preference.
  #53  
Old 08-30-2016, 04:19 PM
Johnny Ace is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5,064
And the 1NT response is negative anyway.
  #54  
Old 08-31-2016, 06:28 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
When playing with a new partner (as is frequently the case online), one thing I always try to enforce is an agreement that changing suit during the bidding is ALWAYS forcing (for at least the next round, I mean - not necessarily to game). Without this convention you really struggle to find the best contract on a lot of hands. Although I must admit to forgetting this rule on one occasion, having made my partner agree to it. That was embarrassing, though partner took it with very good grace.
New suits by responder should be forcing for one round, but not by opener, as per examples given by other posters.
  #55  
Old 08-31-2016, 07:20 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
I would start with 2D, planning to bid 3C next - both are forcing.
We were playing 4th suit forcing, so a bit of 3C over 2S would have been asking for a club stop, not showing clubs myself.
  #56  
Old 08-31-2016, 08:04 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
We were playing 4th suit forcing, so a bit of 3C over 2S would have been asking for a club stop, not showing clubs myself.
Yes, that is why I said "planning". Over a 2H or 2NT rebid from opener, I would bid 3C. If opener rebid 2S, which is what would happen on the actual hand, that is game forcing and I would probably bid 2NT to show that I have a club stop, as there is now minimal possibility that we have a club fit (partner could be 4504, but unlikely).

A hand from today's A/X pairs in the Atlanta Regional: void, K76432, AJT74, K7. You open 1H, LHO bids 1S, partner bids 4D, showing 4+ hearts, singelton or void diamond, and game going values.

Your bid?
  #57  
Old 09-01-2016, 07:25 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Partner could have as little as Jxxx in hearts, but a slam is a definite possibility even so - we can cross-ruff spades and diamonds. So bid 4NT Blackwood and we can always stop in 5H. If we're playing RKCB a 5S response would be the most difficult - which of SA, HA, or CA does partner not have?

I've read about but am not fully au fait with cue bids but I'm not sure I can use them here as I'm missing HA. Theoretically, the sequence could continue 4S-5C-5D, but what then? Bidding 5H would stop the sequence (with HA would partner bid 5H or 6H?). Suppose partner had SAQxx HJxxx DK CQJxx? And partner doesn't know I have six hearts - for all she knows, I might only have four.
  #58  
Old 09-01-2016, 08:11 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
He has five. 4 card majors would be uncommon at a US regional.

I'd typically take the low road in pairs, and we're talking about a sub 25point slam here, but I think I'd have a nibble. If exclusion blackwood is available then 4S would be nice - needs a well-oiled partnership to roll that out over a splinter, though, you'd need to have discussed this possibility.

No gadgets, then 4S cue hoping to hear 5C from partner. If this emerges then a bold 6H - pard has the AC, four trumps, stiff D, and opps spade bid enhances the prospects of a heart honour or two. If no club cue then we subside in five.
  #59  
Old 09-01-2016, 10:12 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
He has five. 4 card majors would be uncommon at a US regional.
I don't know about the US but over here an opening bid of 1H may have only four hearts. Even if we were playing five card majors, partner doesn't know that my only honour is the King.

Quote:
I'd typically take the low road in pairs, and we're talking about a sub 25point slam here, but I think I'd have a nibble.
Absolutely!

Quote:
If exclusion blackwood is available then 4S would be nice
I wasn't aware of that convention and have just read about it (see also this pdf). ITYM 5S, not 4S, and that would mean committing to the slam. Interesting how the problem of 'Blackwood in the minors' is reversed.

Quote:
No gadgets, then 4S cue hoping to hear 5C from partner. If this emerges then a bold 6H - pard has the AC, four trumps, stiff D, and opps spade bid enhances the prospects of a heart honour or two. If no club cue then we subside in five.
The problem with that is the possibility of HAQ sitting over me.
  #60  
Old 09-01-2016, 07:02 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
I won't try to intersperse answers to quotes of all the different comments, so here's a list.

- partner knows you have at least 5 hearts. We play 2 over 1, so the 1H opener guarantees at least 5 (except occasionally 3rd in hand).

- it may only be 11 high card points, but under various ways of evaluating hands with a trump fit it is 15 - 17 points. And 5-loser using the losing trick count, which suggests slam zone if partner's values are in the right places.

- as stated by someone, 5S is exclusion Blackwood, so that does not help here.

I like a 4S cue bid next. It shows the spade control (partner likely has some spade losers) and by going beyond game, shows slam interest. If partner cooperates with 5C (which he does), then I think it reasonable to bid 6H. If you want to be more cautious, you can bid 5D to show your AD and continued interest. I think partner would then bid the slam (and I should know, as I was said partner).

Partner had QJxx Axxx x AQxx. It actually makes 7 when diamonds break 4-3 and the suit can be ruffed good.
  #61  
Old 09-02-2016, 03:37 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
- partner knows you have at least 5 hearts. We play 2 over 1, so the 1H opener guarantees at least 5 (except occasionally 3rd in hand).
As I said, we play differently over here: 1H shows 4+, not 5+.

Quote:
Partner had QJxx Axxx x AQxx. It actually makes 7 when diamonds break 4-3 and the suit can be ruffed good.
Plus trumps are not 3-0.
  #62  
Old 09-02-2016, 06:15 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
As I said, we play differently over here: 1H shows 4+, not 5+.
You might want to watch the way the wind is blowing - 4 card majors are nowhere near universal. All three England pairs in the upcoming World Mind Games play 5 card majors - ACOL seems to be losing favor at the highest levels. Okay, I know you are in Scotland but I do not know the Scottish team.


Quote:
Plus trumps are not 3-0.
True.
  #63  
Old 09-02-2016, 09:25 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Not heard of a top pair playing Acol for a while - think it's dead and buried for team play at those levels - too weak a system for slam bidding.
It's decent at pairs (matchpoints), although again I doubt many experts play it, where you can be quite aggressive low in the auction but you're not stretching for games or slams.

I learned using Acol and now play 2/1 - wouldn't go back (although I do like the weak NT).

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 09-02-2016 at 09:27 AM.
  #64  
Old 09-02-2016, 12:15 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
You might want to watch the way the wind is blowing - 4 card majors are nowhere near universal.
I'm actually well aware of that. I used to play Better Minor myself, but I'm currently playing with random partners and we all know ACOL, because that is what is taught here.
  #65  
Old 10-10-2016, 10:55 PM
Biotop's Avatar
Biotop is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Faber, VA
Posts: 8,164
Fun hand from the club tonight:

******

Both sides vulnerable.

This is how, I think, the bidding should have gone:

Partner opens pass.

RHO bids 4 hearts!

You:

S: A, Q, xxx
H: void
D: A, K, xx
C: A xxx

We have takeout double marked through 4D only.

What do you bid?
  #66  
Old 10-11-2016, 02:54 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Double for takeout and hope that partner understands. An alternative would be 4NT, but that removes the possibility of 4S.
  #67  
Old 10-11-2016, 03:19 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Here's one from last night which I got wrong

Partner holds

S: Kx
H: AQTxx
D: KQT
C: AKJ or AKQ

I hold

S: QJTxx
H: Kxx
D: AJx
C: xx

Partner opened 2H (strong), I responded 2S, he then rebid 2NT, and I was somewhat flummoxed by this and bid 4H. He made 11 tricks, letting an opponent get a ruff. I'm thinking that my partner should have opened 2C or 2NT, not 2H as 2H indicates an unbalanced hand.
  #68  
Old 10-11-2016, 11:39 AM
Biotop's Avatar
Biotop is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Faber, VA
Posts: 8,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biotop View Post
Fun hand from the club tonight:

******

Both sides vulnerable.

This is how, I think, the bidding should have gone:

Partner opens pass.

RHO bids 4 hearts!

You:

S: A, Q, xxx
H: void
D: A, K, xx
C: A xxx

We have takeout double marked through 4D only.

What do you bid?
My partner would have left a double in for penalty. So I don't know what to bid. But here is what really happened:

Partner had:

S: Kxxx
H: x
D: Q, J, xxxx
C: xx

But partner had his heart mixed in with his diamonds! He bid 3 Diamonds to open. RHO bids 4 hearts. I look at my hand and 5 diamonds seems a sure bid with partners supposed 7 Diamonds, so I bid 5 diamonds. The other guys bid 5 hearts. I think one of them must be void in diamonds, so a double is too risky. I bid 6 Diamonds. It is passed out and partner, already apoplectic at my "overbidding" suddenly sees he only has 6 Diamonds in his hand not 7.

The hand makes 7 Diamonds cold. A top board for us as most everyone else defended a heart game.

Last edited by Biotop; 10-11-2016 at 11:40 AM.
  #69  
Old 10-11-2016, 11:54 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biotop View Post
Fun hand from the club tonight:

******

Both sides vulnerable.

This is how, I think, the bidding should have gone:

Partner opens pass.

RHO bids 4 hearts!

You:

S: A, Q, xxx
H: void
D: A, K, xx
C: A xxx

We have takeout double marked through 4D only.

What do you bid?
Agree with Quartz that double is feasible - flexible call. Value-showing, expressing doubt over 4H and keeps spades in the picture. However, there's a v good chance of it getting passed out - pard knows you have some defense and they prob have a few hearts. Unless RHO is a comedian, a second seat red pre-empt can be very heavy, and taking it one or two off might not net a very good score.

We have to find game and I think I'd just go 4S direct here. Worth the risk to try and find the spade fit, which has decent chances of existing given the pre-empt, and our spade suit is not bad.

Another issue with doubling is that LHO may further squeeze our space with a 5H call if they have a fit and are very weak.
  #70  
Old 10-11-2016, 12:01 PM
Biotop's Avatar
Biotop is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Faber, VA
Posts: 8,164
As it is, the opps do make 4 hearts. RHO had 8 hearts, and a void in diamonds. They lose 2 spades and the club ace. A sacrifice of 6 hearts would still work, but opps do not know our hands fit together so well.
  #71  
Old 10-11-2016, 12:15 PM
Dead Cat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Here's one from last night which I got wrong

Partner holds

S: Kx
H: AQTxx
D: KQT
C: AKJ or AKQ

I hold

S: QJTxx
H: Kxx
D: AJx
C: xx

Partner opened 2H (strong), I responded 2S, he then rebid 2NT, and I was somewhat flummoxed by this and bid 4H. He made 11 tricks, letting an opponent get a ruff. I'm thinking that my partner should have opened 2C or 2NT, not 2H as 2H indicates an unbalanced hand.
I agree with you that your partner's hand looks like a 2NT opener (20-22), or 2C if he does have Qc instead of the J (23 HCPs). I assume he intended his rebid of 2NT to show that he was fairly balanced but with H as his longest suit. Unless I thought it would totally confuse the situation, I think I would have attempted a cue bid of 3D over this (as I always play change of suit as 100% forcing for one round - and in this case it would obviously be forcing to game anyway), showing I had a first round control in diamonds but not clubs. Partner can then deduce he has no losers in clubs or diamonds and use Blackwood/Gerber/RKCB (or whatever you have agreed) to find out that you do not have the spade Ace (as he already knows you have the diamond Ace - unless your cue bid was to show a diamond void, which is unlikely) but you do have the heart King. If I were him I think I'd try 6NT, which seems to make comfortably.

Any gaps in the above analysis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biotop View Post
My partner would have left a double in for penalty. So I don't know what to bid. But here is what really happened:

Partner had:

S: Kxxx
H: x
D: Q, J, xxxx
C: xx

But partner had his heart mixed in with his diamonds! He bid 3 Diamonds to open. RHO bids 4 hearts. I look at my hand and 5 diamonds seems a sure bid with partners supposed 7 Diamonds, so I bid 5 diamonds. The other guys bid 5 hearts. I think one of them must be void in diamonds, so a double is too risky. I bid 6 Diamonds. It is passed out and partner, already apoplectic at my "overbidding" suddenly sees he only has 6 Diamonds in his hand not 7.

The hand makes 7 Diamonds cold. A top board for us as most everyone else defended a heart game.
Nice when an error leads to a top (and it looks like you bidded well) - I'm sure in my case that would be more than cancelled out by my many other errors that lead to bottoms!
  #72  
Old 10-12-2016, 04:15 PM
TexCat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,329
Biotop,
Most people here play X thru 4H as takeout. Is there some reason why you only play thru 4D?
Also, your partner's vulnerable preempt looks a little light to me, even with 7 diamonds. I only count 5 1/2 tricks. Plus, I hate to preempt with a good major holding and an unpassed partner. Too many times you end up missing a major suit game. Although they do say it's a bidder's game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Partner opened 2H (strong), I responded 2S, he then rebid 2NT, and I was somewhat flummoxed by this and bid 4H. He made 11 tricks, letting an opponent get a ruff. I'm thinking that my partner should have opened 2C or 2NT, not 2H as 2H indicates an unbalanced hand.
You have a good idea of partner's strength (if not his shape). Does he know how strong your hand is? (I'm not familiar with strong 2s).
Whatever partner opens (and I don't disagree with 2NT or 2C), I think you need to push for slam. Would you have bid 2S with zero points? 4H by you sounds like a sign-off. Maybe just try 3H and see what partner does next?
  #73  
Old 10-12-2016, 06:15 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
As I said, I got flummoxed. My mistake.

Over an opening bid of 2NT I would have bid 3NT, being 1 point short of values for a 4NT bid. Over 2C I would bid 2S. With zero points it's legal to pass 2H, but the general negative is 2NT.
  #74  
Old 10-12-2016, 06:23 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexCat View Post
Biotop,
Most people here play X thru 4H as takeout. Is there some reason why you only play thru 4D?
Also, your partner's vulnerable preempt looks a little light to me, even with 7 diamonds. I only count 5 1/2 tricks. Plus, I hate to preempt with a good major holding and an unpassed partner. Too many times you end up missing a major suit game. Although they do say it's a bidder's game.
I like a style where you're prepared to pre-empt with a hand containing one flaw - pure weak 2s / 3s are too conservative nowadays IMHO. But draw the line at two flaws - too wild. So Biotop's partner going 3 first seat red with an outside 4cM plus a (mis-assessed) void is too erratic for me.

As ever it's about knowing what to expect, rather than one approach being right or wrong. If you agree to pre-empt freely that can work.
  #75  
Old 10-12-2016, 06:34 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
As I said, I got flummoxed. My mistake.

Over an opening bid of 2NT I would have bid 3NT, being 1 point short of values for a 4NT bid. Over 2C I would bid 2S. With zero points it's legal to pass 2H, but the general negative is 2NT.
Your partner's completely misbid their hand so I wouldn't say it was your mistake. It probably is wrong to jump to game after making your 2S bid, as that has to be GF or close to, and you're way too strong to just shut up shop. But what does pard's 2N rebid really mean in that sequence? It's hard to interpret and has been made in error really as they chose the wrong opening bid.
  #76  
Old 10-12-2016, 09:45 PM
Biotop's Avatar
Biotop is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Faber, VA
Posts: 8,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexCat View Post
Biotop,
Most people here play X thru 4H as takeout. Is there some reason why you only play thru 4D?
Also, your partner's vulnerable preempt looks a little light to me, even with 7 diamonds. I only count 5 1/2 tricks. Plus, I hate to preempt with a good major holding and an unpassed partner. Too many times you end up missing a major suit game. Although they do say it's a bidder's game.

We both tend to overbid on distribution. Sometimes it backfires. But there had been a hand earlier where we failed to make the sacrifice bid on shape, so that may have been the catalyst.

I don't know where we got the "thru 4 diamonds" takeout double. Always been on our card. We should probably think it out and change to 4H.
  #77  
Old 10-12-2016, 10:10 PM
Biotop's Avatar
Biotop is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Faber, VA
Posts: 8,164
On an earlier hand (E/W vulnerable), sitting South I held:

S: 8, 6
H: A, Q, T, 8, 6, 4, 3
D: J
C: A, 4, 2

The bidding went:

E: 1C
S (me): 1H
W: 1S
N: Pass
E: 3S
S: 4H
W: 4S

All pass. I wanted to sacrifice 5 H with favorable vulnerability, but I had heard nothing from partner and my hand had a lot of losers.

Partner had:

S: 9, 3
H: J, 9, 7, 2
D: 9, 7, 5, 3
C: Q, 8, 3

We held the opps to just their 4 spades contract. But with the club king favorably with west, I could have held it to down 3 ( 2 spade losers, a club, a diamond and the trump king). Had the club king been in the wrong place it might have been wrong to interfere. But then again I could have gotten lucky with the trump king. Or maybe they would error by overbidding to 5 spades.

I think we needed to sacrifice at 5 hearts, but I am not sure the fault is mine or partner's. I wanted to bid it. I should have, I guess.
  #78  
Old 10-13-2016, 03:10 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
You're speaking with the benefit of hindsight and perfect knowledge. Partner might have been void in Hearts and West might have had 6.

Something similar happened to me the other night. RHO opened 1H (showing 5) and I held H AKxxxx and opening points. With no other biddable suit, I passed! The hand was a complete misfit and one of those cases where the last to bid is the loser. Partner had 6 or 7 diamonds headed by the QJ and I had a singleton.
  #79  
Old 10-13-2016, 04:43 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
Agree with Quartz that double is feasible - flexible call. Value-showing, expressing doubt over 4H and keeps spades in the picture. However, there's a v good chance of it getting passed out - pard knows you have some defense and they prob have a few hearts. Unless RHO is a comedian, a second seat red pre-empt can be very heavy, and taking it one or two off might not net a very good score.

We have to find game and I think I'd just go 4S direct here. Worth the risk to try and find the spade fit, which has decent chances of existing given the pre-empt, and our spade suit is not bad.

Another issue with doubling is that LHO may further squeeze our space with a 5H call if they have a fit and are very weak.
I agree with all of this, and that it is best to play a double as takeout.

I also would not preempt with partner's hand even if the heart really were a diamond - Kxxx is too good a spade holding, making it too likely we miss a spade fit.
  #80  
Old 10-13-2016, 04:53 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Here's one from last night which I got wrong

Partner holds

S: Kx
H: AQTxx
D: KQT
C: AKJ or AKQ

I hold

S: QJTxx
H: Kxx
D: AJx
C: xx

Partner opened 2H (strong), I responded 2S, he then rebid 2NT, and I was somewhat flummoxed by this and bid 4H. He made 11 tricks, letting an opponent get a ruff. I'm thinking that my partner should have opened 2C or 2NT, not 2H as 2H indicates an unbalanced hand.
I would open partner's hand 2C, irrespective of whether it is J or Q clubs. The good 5-card heart suit is worth an extra point anyway. After that, it is simple to get to 6NT. 2C - 2S - 2NT - 6NT is feasible. You could use Gerber over 2NT to find out you are not missing an ace and a king.

There's no benefit in playing in hearts when you have masses of tricks, especially playing pairs. Indeed, if hearts are J9xx offside, you will go down in 6H when 6NT makes.
  #81  
Old 10-13-2016, 04:59 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
As I said, I got flummoxed. My mistake.

Over an opening bid of 2NT I would have bid 3NT, being 1 point short of values for a 4NT bid.
Your spades are worth an extra point. The 10 solidifies the suit and the 5th spade is an extra trick but no extra HCP. Compare the trick-taking potential with the same hand but where the 10S is replaced by the 10C. Clearly your hand is much better, but they have the same number of HCP.

Opposite a 2NT opener I would transfer to 3 spades and then bid 4NT, which is natural. Partner would bid 6NT (or possibly 6H).
  #82  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:06 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biotop View Post
On an earlier hand (E/W vulnerable), sitting South I held:

S: 8, 6
H: A, Q, T, 8, 6, 4, 3
D: J
C: A, 4, 2

The bidding went:

E: 1C
S (me): 1H
W: 1S
N: Pass
E: 3S
S: 4H
W: 4S

All pass. I wanted to sacrifice 5 H with favorable vulnerability, but I had heard nothing from partner and my hand had a lot of losers.

Partner had:

S: 9, 3
H: J, 9, 7, 2
D: 9, 7, 5, 3
C: Q, 8, 3

We held the opps to just their 4 spades contract. But with the club king favorably with west, I could have held it to down 3 ( 2 spade losers, a club, a diamond and the trump king). Had the club king been in the wrong place it might have been wrong to interfere. But then again I could have gotten lucky with the trump king. Or maybe they would error by overbidding to 5 spades.

I think we needed to sacrifice at 5 hearts, but I am not sure the fault is mine or partner's. I wanted to bid it. I should have, I guess.
I think partner should have bid 5H, with 4-card trump support. You have bid your hand.

However, how does 5S go down? If you have a heart loser playing in hearts, then hearts must break 2-0 so you have no defensive heart trick. That leaves just two club tricks on defense.
  #83  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:17 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
Your spades are worth an extra point.
Really? With a maximum of 33 HCP, it would possible for someone to have an Ace and a King, possibly in the same suit. If that person were on lead, we'd go down immediately.
  #84  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:58 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Really? With a maximum of 33 HCP, it would possible for someone to have an Ace and a King, possibly in the same suit. If that person were on lead, we'd go down immediately.
Yes, really. You have to evaluate how many tricks you can make and QJTxx Kxx AJX xx is clearly better than QJxx Kxx AJx Txx. Just to count 10 HCP and use that as your sole evaluation is wrong. If you add one point for a decent 5-card suit, you will not go far wrong.

Of course it is possible you will be missing an AK, but you cannot have perfection. Bridge is a percentage game. Put your hand opposite a balanced 22 points and it will make 6NT way more often than it will go down. I (electronically) dealt 64 hands where your partner has a balanced 22 points. You can see them here. There are no occasions where the opponents have AK in a suit.

6NT is a good contract on the vast majority of the hands (maybe all of them). I only analyzed the first 10. 6NT is 100% on nine of them and better than 70% on the other.
  #85  
Old 10-13-2016, 06:33 AM
Dead Cat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz
You're speaking with the benefit of hindsight and perfect knowledge. Partner might have been void in Hearts and West might have had 6.
Exactly - partner knows you are long in hearts, so they are the one who needs to decide whether to increase the sacrifice, based on their values.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz
Something similar happened to me the other night. RHO opened 1H (showing 5) and I held H AKxxxx and opening points. With no other biddable suit, I passed! The hand was a complete misfit and one of those cases where the last to bid is the loser. Partner had 6 or 7 diamonds headed by the QJ and I had a singleton.
Had opener's partner bid (say) 1S, your partner passed, and opener bid 2H, would your system then allow you to double for penalties? I would normally play that the first (non-pass) bid by a partnership is always double for take-out, but in this particular case I think it would be obvious (if partner is paying attention) that the double must be for penalties, as if for take-out you would have done it the first time. On the other hand, the double might alert the opponents to where all the values are, which could help them in the play. What do you think?

I realise I am in way over my head in terms of expertise in this thread, but if any kind soul would care to briefly critique my earlier post, I'd be very grateful.
  #86  
Old 10-13-2016, 07:48 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
Exactly - partner knows you are long in hearts, so they are the one who needs to decide whether to increase the sacrifice, based on their values.


Had opener's partner bid (say) 1S, your partner passed, and opener bid 2H, would your system then allow you to double for penalties? I would normally play that the first (non-pass) bid by a partnership is always double for take-out, but in this particular case I think it would be obvious (if partner is paying attention) that the double must be for penalties, as if for take-out you would have done it the first time. On the other hand, the double might alert the opponents to where all the values are, which could help them in the play. What do you think?

.
It's normally better to trust partner to re-open with a double in these sort of situations, which you can then pass. So if you're in the pass-out seat you need to be quite aggressive with your balancing doubles if you suspect pard might be sitting on a trump stack. If you're playing with someone who doesn't grasp this concept then a double like you describe usually gets the message across.

The information you give to the opps when you double is a trade off against the possible penalty you stand to collect, all part and parcel of bidding judgement. You obv want to avoid your double tipping the balance such that declarer takes a winning line - but don't talk yourself out of obvious doubles. It's a truism that people don't double enough at bridge, esp at pairs [imps is more dangerous]. Just look how shiny and new the red cards look compared to the green ones!
  #87  
Old 10-13-2016, 07:59 AM
TexCat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biotop View Post
The bidding went:

E: 1C
S (me): 1H
W: 1S
N: Pass
E: 3S
S: 4H
W: 4S
With 4 card support, I think partner(N) should have bid 3H. I play that jump as preemptive. A cue bid of 2S or 2C would show values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
Had opener's partner bid (say) 1S, your partner passed, and opener bid 2H, would your system then allow you to double for penalties? I would normally play that the first (non-pass) bid by a partnership is always double for take-out, but in this particular case I think it would be obvious (if partner is paying attention) that the double must be for penalties, as if for take-out you would have done it the first time. On the other hand, the double might alert the opponents to where all the values are, which could help them in the play. What do you think?

I realise I am in way over my head in terms of expertise in this thread, but if any kind soul would care to briefly critique my earlier post, I'd be very grateful.
I think a double here: 1H-P-1S-P-2H-X would show a hand like
xx
xxx
AKxx
KQxx
A good hand that couldn't double 1H for takeout because of not having spades.
  #88  
Old 10-13-2016, 08:05 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
Had opener's partner bid (say) 1S, your partner passed, and opener bid 2H, would your system then allow you to double for penalties? I would normally play that the first (non-pass) bid by a partnership is always double for take-out, but in this particular case I think it would be obvious (if partner is paying attention) that the double must be for penalties, as if for take-out you would have done it the first time. On the other hand, the double might alert the opponents to where all the values are, which could help them in the play. What do you think?
I think that in the case you posit, a double would be take-out for the minors, saying that you have near-bidding points and 4+ cards in each minor. My points are likely in the minor suits too. Doubling a low-level contract for penalties when you have already passed doesn't make sense.
  #89  
Old 10-13-2016, 08:09 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexCat View Post
I think a double here: 1H-P-1S-P-2H-X would show a hand like
xx
xxx
AKxx
KQxx
A good hand that couldn't double 1H for takeout because of not having spades.
Yes, though length can substitute for strength:

x
xx
KJxxx
KJxxx

Last edited by Quartz; 10-13-2016 at 08:09 AM.
  #90  
Old 10-13-2016, 08:11 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
I only analyzed the first 10. 6NT is 100% on nine of them and better than 70% on the other.
Better than 80%, actually (it is hand 1 in the link I provided). It needs one of two finesses or a 3-3 break (or a squeeze).
  #91  
Old 10-13-2016, 08:59 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
I agree with you that your partner's hand looks like a 2NT opener (20-22), or 2C if he does have Qc instead of the J (23 HCPs). I assume he intended his rebid of 2NT to show that he was fairly balanced but with H as his longest suit. Unless I thought it would totally confuse the situation, I think I would have attempted a cue bid of 3D over this (as I always play change of suit as 100% forcing for one round - and in this case it would obviously be forcing to game anyway), showing I had a first round control in diamonds but not clubs. Partner can then deduce he has no losers in clubs or diamonds and use Blackwood/Gerber/RKCB (or whatever you have agreed) to find out that you do not have the spade Ace (as he already knows you have the diamond Ace - unless your cue bid was to show a diamond void, which is unlikely) but you do have the heart King. If I were him I think I'd try 6NT, which seems to make comfortably.

Any gaps in the above analysis?
Agree it is better to show the hand as balanced. As stated in another post, the good 5-card heart suit makes it better than 22 points. There is a site here that evaluates hands and assigns adjustments to raw HCP based on suit length, intermediates, honor combinations and maybe other factors. It gives a Kaplan & Rubens (or K&R) count. It evaluates the hand in question as 23 points. Hence I open 2C and rebid 2NT.

If you are concerned about missing a 5-3 major suit fit by bidding NT holding a 5-card major, there are conventions to find out about that - Puppet Stayman is the most popular. There is a variation called Muppet Stayman.

The problem with your proposed 3D bid is that you have not yet agreed trumps, so 3D will be construed as natural. I prefer a 3H bid to set trumps, then if partner cue bids you can bid 4D as a cue bid. Actually, I prefer to bid 3H over 2H, assuming that is forcing (it is 30 years since I played strong 2s). Kxx is a fantastic holding in hearts and I want partner to know immediately that we have found a fit.

You are then correct that partner can find out about slam using RKCB. I would not play Gerber when looking for a slam in a suit - you want 4C available as a cue bid. And you are correct that 6NT is the best contract, especially at matchpoints.
  #92  
Old 10-13-2016, 09:24 AM
Dead Cat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,277
Thanks all, informative as always.

In relation to the above post - on the layout given, I suppose if partner launched straight into Blackwood rather than cue bidding after your proposed 3H second response (which I agree with by the way, now you have explained it), it doesn't really matter which Ace you have from partner's point of view, as it means he has no losers in whichever suit it is. So he can still bid 6NT once he knows about the Kings. Of course, were this not the case it just becomes a demonstration of why cue bidding can be more accurate than Blackwood. I don't play Gerber as with my lack of experience there are only a (very) limited number of conventions I can rely on remembering correctly, and of the two Blackwood is more common (and RKCB is useful in more situations, in my view).
  #93  
Old 11-05-2016, 11:19 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
I suppose if partner launched straight into Blackwood ... it doesn't really matter which Ace you have from partner's point of view, as it means he has no losers in whichever suit it is.
Yes. I once had a huge hand in clubs and my partner opened. Things didn't go well and we missed bidding the easy slam in clubs. In the post-mortem, it was pointed out that I could have bid 4NT (ordinary Blackwood) as I was able to cope with any response, passing a response of 5C, and raising a response of 5D to 6C, and 5H to 7C.
  #94  
Old 11-07-2016, 06:52 AM
Dead Cat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,277
I love those (rare) situations where you can use a convention knowing that for some responses, you can pass where normally you would bid on and it will still be OK. It may leave partner horrified that you have forgotten the convention, until the end of the hand when they can see why you did it! I think a similar thing can arise if you use Stayman with few points and plenty of diamonds - potentially just passing out the 2D response.
  #95  
Old 11-16-2016, 05:41 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
A couple of grand slams from the Atlanta Sectional last week.

First hand in the A/X pairs - this is the top bracket. My LHO held

Axxx
AKx
AKQ98
Q

His partner opened 1H, he bid 2D, game forcing. His partner bid 2H showing a 6-card suit. He now bid 4NT RKCB (although I would play it as natural - you can bid 3H first of you want to agree hearts). His partner bid 5C, showing 1 or 4 key cards. He should now bid 5D, asking about the QH, and partner would have bid 6C showing both QH and KC. However, he bid 5NT, his partner bid 6C showing KC, and he bid 7H. Not only could he have been off the QH, but if hearts are coming in, he can count 13 tricks and should bid 7NT at matchpoints. I was sure that would be a good board. Nope. In this highest bracket, only one pair can apparently count to 13 and bid 7NT. Over 60% of the field missed the grand. His partner had

Jx
QJxxxx
Jx
AKx

Now one in our direction. I held ATxxxx Axx xx Ax. I opened 1S, partner bid 2D, game forcing, showing 5+ diamonds. I bid 2S, showing 6. He bid 3S, setting trumps. I cue bid 4C, which does not show serious slam intent but is a cue bid in case partner is interested. He bid 4NT, RKCB. I bid 5C showing 0 or 3, and he bid 7NT because he can count to 13.

He held:

QJx
KQx
AKQxxx
Q

You will have spotted the flaw. Partner may be able to count to 13, but apparently not to 5 - we were missing a key card. He thought my 5C bid showed 1 or 4. He won the club lead, crossed to hand and took the spade finesse. It lost, and they cashed six more club tricks. Down 7, vulnerable. This result, as they say in cricket, did not trouble the scorers.
  #96  
Old 11-16-2016, 06:28 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
An interesting hand came up last night: I opened 1NT (12-14) and my partner passed holding Sxx Hx DAQJ98 CKxxxx. I held SAK Hxxx DKxxx CAxx, making 9 tricks. 6D would have been an easy make as CQJ were doubleton - one of us held the Ten. We were playing transfers and a transfer to the minors via 2S usually requires 6 and he might have missed.a club fit. What should my partner have bid?
  #97  
Old 11-16-2016, 08:13 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
An interesting hand came up last night: I opened 1NT (12-14) and my partner passed holding Sxx Hx DAQJ98 CKxxxx. I held SAK Hxxx DKxxx CAxx, making 9 tricks. 6D would have been an easy make as CQJ were doubleton - one of us held the Ten. We were playing transfers and a transfer to the minors via 2S usually requires 6 and he might have missed.a club fit. What should my partner have bid?
It's tough to reach minor suit contracts after a no trump opening unless you have specific system agreements to handle it. With some partners I play that 3C = 5-5 minors, invitational; 3D = 5-5 minors, game forcing. That would work on this hand. Partner bids 3C and you are happy to bid game in diamonds.

Without that sort of convention, I probably would invite game in no trump and hope that one of the minors comes home. And that opponents do not lead hearts as they have at least 5 to cash. I don't criticize a pass of 1NT, though. I imagine +150 is a decent result at pairs.
  #98  
Old 11-17-2016, 05:36 AM
Dead Cat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
A couple of grand slams from the Atlanta Sectional last week.

First hand in the A/X pairs - this is the top bracket. My LHO held

Axxx
AKx
AKQ98
Q

His partner opened 1H, he bid 2D, game forcing. His partner bid 2H showing a 6-card suit. He now bid 4NT RKCB (although I would play it as natural - you can bid 3H first of you want to agree hearts). His partner bid 5C, showing 1 or 4 key cards. He should now bid 5D, asking about the QH, and partner would have bid 6C showing both QH and KC. However, he bid 5NT, his partner bid 6C showing KC, and he bid 7H. Not only could he have been off the QH, but if hearts are coming in, he can count 13 tricks and should bid 7NT at matchpoints. I was sure that would be a good board. Nope. In this highest bracket, only one pair can apparently count to 13 and bid 7NT. Over 60% of the field missed the grand. His partner had

Jx
QJxxxx
Jx
AKx

Now one in our direction. I held ATxxxx Axx xx Ax. I opened 1S, partner bid 2D, game forcing, showing 5+ diamonds. I bid 2S, showing 6. He bid 3S, setting trumps. I cue bid 4C, which does not show serious slam intent but is a cue bid in case partner is interested. He bid 4NT, RKCB. I bid 5C showing 0 or 3, and he bid 7NT because he can count to 13.

He held:

QJx
KQx
AKQxxx
Q

You will have spotted the flaw. Partner may be able to count to 13, but apparently not to 5 - we were missing a key card. He thought my 5C bid showed 1 or 4. He won the club lead, crossed to hand and took the spade finesse. It lost, and they cashed six more club tricks. Down 7, vulnerable. This result, as they say in cricket, did not trouble the scorers.
I guess your second hand just goes to show even the (relatively) simple conventions can easily go very wrong. Bad luck.

On the first hand, how can responder count 13 tricks? He doesn't know that partner has the jack of hearts, does he? True, for this to be a problem the defenders would need to have a lucky 4/0 split in hearts, so it might be a good gamble anyway, or am I missing something?
  #99  
Old 11-17-2016, 05:53 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
I guess your second hand just goes to show even the (relatively) simple conventions can easily go very wrong. Bad luck.

On the first hand, how can responder count 13 tricks? He doesn't know that partner has the jack of hearts, does he? True, for this to be a problem the defenders would need to have a lucky 4/0 split in hearts, so it might be a good gamble anyway, or am I missing something?
You are right that it is possible that hearts are 4-0, and you are also correct that it is a good gamble anyway. A 4-0 break is only 9.6%, and even then you make when:
  • partner has the jack
  • partner has no jack but has the ten and nine
  • partner has no jack or nine, but has the ten and the 4 card hearts are onside

I make that a nearly 98% grand slam, so well worth bidding. And the odds are the same in no trump, so you should bid 7NT at pairs.
  #100  
Old 11-17-2016, 06:33 AM
Dead Cat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,277
Makes sense, thanks.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:13 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017