Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Old 08-30-2017, 04:01 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Our league starts up in a couple of weeks so I was just going over the card with my partner. It's funny how you form you own views of what conventions / treatments are essential, yet others consider them trivial - would you say, for example, that a serious / non serious 3NT bid [or equivalent] was fundamental to a 2/1 system? I would, but my partner isn't bothered about it at all. He recognises the concept of course, but I guess thinks 2/1 sequences are relatively rare and can normally be worked out with natural hand evaulation.
OTOH, he likes the multi and Muiderberg 2s - I suspect because they slay at the club, but they're nothing special against good players and 3 weak 2s is simpler and better IMHO.

At the end of the day, there is probably no bridge card on earth that could not be improved by taking stuff out....
  #252  
Old 08-30-2017, 09:26 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
Our league starts up in a couple of weeks so I was just going over the card with my partner. It's funny how you form you own views of what conventions / treatments are essential, yet others consider them trivial - would you say, for example, that a serious / non serious 3NT bid [or equivalent] was fundamental to a 2/1 system? I would, but my partner isn't bothered about it at all. He recognises the concept of course, but I guess thinks 2/1 sequences are relatively rare and can normally be worked out with natural hand evaulation.
Most of my partners have 4,000+ points (US system), or are equivalent to UK Premier Life Masters or better (but I have not kept up with UK ranking changes), so are pretty good players, but I only play serious 3NT with one of them, so I would not say it is fundamental to 2/1 (in the US at least). I think it is a good thing to play, and allows you to dispense with fast-arrival in most cases, but you can live without it. And in occasional partnerships you can run into issues as to whether a particular 3NT bid is serious/non-serious or simply a suggestion to play there.
  #253  
Old 08-30-2017, 09:42 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
As this thread was started after making a grand slam, here's a hats off to Andrew Robson and David Gold for one of the best bidding sequences I have ever seen. They bid and made 7D on a 4-3 fit after agreeing a 5-4 spade fit earlier in the auction. And diamonds were first bid naturally at the 7-level.

Code:
Robson     Gold
AJxx        KQTxx
Ax          x
KQJ9        Axx
J9x         AK8x
1NT - 2H (1)
3S (2) - 4C (3)
4D (4) - 4NT (5)
5H (6) - 6C (7)
7D (8) - Pass (9)


(1) transfer
(2) superaccept
(3) first or second round control, will not be shortage
(4) first or second round control
(5) RKCB. Imples heart control
(6) 2 keycards, no QS
(7) asking for third round club control.
(8) suggestion to play. Robson took 3 minutes to find this bid.
(9) pass. Gold took 5 minutes to find this.

Note that even if Gold held just Ax diamonds, 7D is still a better slam than 7S.

Robson worked out that Gold might have the hand he did, and that getting a heart ruff (and club discard on the fifth spade) would allow 7D to make. And with a different hand, Gold could convert back to 7S/NT. Gold worked out what Robson was suggesting and why, and passed.

This was also the last board in the Bermuda Bowl final. France bid 6S, making. USA2 bid 7S, down one, to lose 17 IMPs. Fortunately for the USA2 team, they were 19 IMPs ahead.
  #254  
Old 08-30-2017, 10:57 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
That is very cunning bidding. Just what you expect from someone of Robson's caliber.
  #255  
Old 08-31-2017, 11:10 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
I wonder how the bidding would have gone if they were using a Weak NT? Perhaps 1S - 4H (splinter) - 4N - 5D (three Aces) - and I've forgotten about how to ask for the Queen. I suspect that that line would end up in 7S. Or would you bid 1D first? 1D - 1S - 3S - 4C - 4D - etc.
  #256  
Old 08-31-2017, 08:08 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
I wonder how the bidding would have gone if they were using a Weak NT? Perhaps 1S - 4H (splinter) - 4N - 5D (three Aces) - and I've forgotten about how to ask for the Queen. I suspect that that line would end up in 7S. Or would you bid 1D first? 1D - 1S - 3S - 4C - 4D - etc.
To open 1S would mean playing a system that allows 4-card major openings. Robson/Gold play 2/1, so they would not open 1S. An Acol pair opens 1S (presumably). A 4H splinter is possible but the issue is that the bid uses up such a lot of bidding space that it is best to play it with a relatively tight range, e.g. 10 - 14 HCP. Otherwise, opener does not know whether it is safe to bid on and commit to at least the 5-level. I would prefer a Jacoby 2NT bid with a stronger hand, such as the one Gold held, although some people prefer to restrict Jacoby to balance hands.

If you splinter then bid RKCB, and partner responds 5D, the queen ask is 5H (next suit up other than the trum suit). East would respond 6C, showing QS and KC as the lowest king. On this auction West does not know that East has 5 trumps, so it is hard to see them bidding 7 with any confidence. And there is no way they will get to 7D. I expect them to stop in 6S.

If East responds 2NT instead of splintering, it can go 3NT (15-17 points), 4C - 4D - 4NT - 5H - 6C. This is very similar to the actual sequence, but again the issue is that West does not know that East has 5 spades, so they are likely to stop in 6S.

Playing 2/1, if outside the 1NT opening range, West opens 1D, East bids 1S. West probably bids 3S. Now 4C - 4D - 4NT - 5H - 6C. Again, West does not know about the 5th spade, which was key to the original 7D bid - it is where West's 3rd club gets parked. So I suspect they end up in 6S.

But who am I to state with any accuracy how players would bid in the world championships? I have not played in any such championships myself.
  #257  
Old 08-31-2017, 08:48 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
5 card majors are a pain in the butt, but we've been over that before.
  #258  
Old 09-04-2017, 05:15 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Played in a decent teams congress at the weekend and picked up the following:

S ATxxx
H x
D AKx
C KJxx

All non vuln, IMPs, good opps. Partner obliges by opening 2NT, 20-21.

What is your approach? Could this be the one auction per year where you dust off gerber?
  #259  
Old 09-04-2017, 08:21 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
2NT is 20-22. You have 15 HCP so bid 5NT which is a demand to partner to bid 7NT if maximum or 6NT if not.

Otherwise you could bid 3H as a transfer to Spades and after parner's response bid 4NT to ask for aces, ending in 6NT or 7. If partner shows enthusiasm for spades by responding 4S you might prefer 7S as a contract.
  #260  
Old 09-04-2017, 10:00 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
2NT is 20-22. You have 15 HCP so bid 5NT which is a demand to partner to bid 7NT if maximum or 6NT if not.

Otherwise you could bid 3H as a transfer to Spades and after parner's response bid 4NT to ask for aces, ending in 6NT or 7. If partner shows enthusiasm for spades by responding 4S you might prefer 7S as a contract.
2N is 20-21 here, as stated. So 5N transfer of responsibility will be hard for them to evaluate.

Jacoby transfer would see pard bidding 3S, suggesting he does not love the spade suit. An immediate 4N would then be for spades, but you could prob convert to 6N if you liked.

I'm interested in the team psychology of it more than anything - checking for aces, hearing 4 and then ploughing 7 must have chances, and in a pairs game I'd be happy doing that. Teams, though - it's very expensive when it's wrong and will bomb morale if you can't justify it with an intelligent auction.
  #261  
Old 09-04-2017, 02:47 PM
OldGuy is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,451
By and large bidding 7 NT is not a good idea missing a King, unless you have a long running suit as a source of tricks. You don't, and your partner opening 2 NT shouldn't either. So 7NT could easily be on a finesse if you don't find out about As and Ks.
  #262  
Old 09-04-2017, 08:17 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
Played in a decent teams congress at the weekend and picked up the following:

S ATxxx
H x
D AKx
C KJxx

All non vuln, IMPs, good opps. Partner obliges by opening 2NT, 20-21.

What is your approach? Could this be the one auction per year where you dust off gerber?
I don't have methods for this. I would transfer to 3S then bid 5NT "pick a slam". I don't know how to find out about a grand slam with any confidence. We would need spades to be coming in, so I could bid 4H, transfer to 4S, then bid 4NT, which would be RKCB in that sequence in my methods (2NT - 3H; 3S - 4NT would be natural and quantitative. 2NT - 3H; 3S - 4C would be natural). But I still do not see how we can know that we have no minor suit losers, so would not go past 6.
  #263  
Old 09-04-2017, 08:25 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
A hand from today. Not difficult, but somewhat unusual in that I only made one bid: 7NT.

Kx AJx AK AKQJ9x. In 4th seat, I started to think about my second bid after partner responded to my 2C opening, but this was stopped by LHO opening 2H. I decided I would start with a double but before I got a chance, partner started thinking. Surely he cannot have a bid, I thought, but he emerged from the tank with 3H. It is only the second time we have played together and have never agreed what this sequence means. I decided I did not care, and bid 7NT. This has 15 top tricks. Partner was AQTxx xxx QJxxx void. 3H was Michaels.

5 out of 13 pairs bid 7NT, 3 bid 6NT, 2 went down in 7S and 3 played in 3NT.
  #264  
Old 09-04-2017, 11:40 PM
OldGuy is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
I don't have methods for this. I would transfer to 3S then bid 5NT "pick a slam". I don't know how to find out about a grand slam with any confidence. We would need spades to be coming in, so I could bid 4H, transfer to 4S, then bid 4NT, which would be RKCB in that sequence in my methods (2NT - 3H; 3S - 4NT would be natural and quantitative. 2NT - 3H; 3S - 4C would be natural). But I still do not see how we can know that we have no minor suit losers, so would not go past 6.
Would you really play 5NT there as pick-a-slam after you transferred to spades and not the Grand Slam Force asking partner to bid 7 spades with two of top three honors? And if you did play it as pick a slam, what do you do if partner suggests diamonds or hearts, and are quite possibly only 4 card suits. He might well be 2-4-4-3. He certainly doesn't have a 6 card suit after opening 2NT. DO you want to play 6D in a 5-3 fit? I'd think the bidding would go

2N 2H (transfer) 2S 3C. Partner will know you're at least 5-4 in black suits. If he doesn't like either, he'll likely bid 3NT. You could then try 6N. If he supports either suit bid 6 of that one.
  #265  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:11 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Thks for the replies - we played in 6N for a flat board.
We're missing the KH which is off side, but both 7N and 7S [pard had KQ tight] make due to very even breaks in all suits.

7N sounds like a guess, but maybe 7S is percentage with 36 pts, and pard showing all key cards and the Q? Just unclear whether pard has 2 or 3 spades.
  #266  
Old 09-05-2017, 05:07 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post
Would you really play 5NT there as pick-a-slam after you transferred to spades and not the Grand Slam Force asking partner to bid 7 spades with two of top three honors?
Yes. GSF has been made virtually obsolete by the invention of RKCB. I can find out about the top spade honors with RKCB, so no need to have another bid for the same thing.

Quote:
And if you did play it as pick a slam, what do you do if partner suggests diamonds or hearts, and are quite possibly only 4 card suits. He might well be 2-4-4-3.
I put it back to 6NT if I have no fit for another suit he suggests. However, as I have already shown 5 spades, he should not be looking for me to have another 4 card suit and I would expect 5D/H to show 5. Actually, 5S and 4H is one of the hardest hands to show after a 2NT opening. (2N 3H 3S 4H should show 5-5 else you have a problem when opener is 2-3).

Quote:
He certainly doesn't have a 6 card suit after opening 2NT.
Wanna bet? KJ AQ AQTxxx KJx. I open 2NT with that.

Quote:
Do you want to play 6D in a 5-3 fit?
Yes. Ruffing hearts in the short hand and/or ruffing spades good. If partner has 5 diamonds we have a better shot at 7D than 7S.
Quote:
I'd think the bidding would go

2N 2H (transfer) 2S 3C. Partner will know you're at least 5-4 in black suits. If he doesn't like either, he'll likely bid 3NT. You could then try 6N. If he supports either suit bid 6 of that one.
It would be fantastic if you can do that, but 2H is insufficient. The difficulty on this hand is the lack of room after the 2NT opening to explore whether you really have a spade fit (or a club fit), which is why one of my suggestions was that 2N 3H 3S 4C shows a club suit and is not Gerber. That then works as you suggest, but a level higher. If partner bids 4S, you can use RKCB and head for a spade slam. As long as you can play this sequence as not Gerber, I prefer it to my original suggestion of 5NT as you can find out about a spade fit.
  #267  
Old 09-19-2017, 05:33 PM
merrick is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Over here
Posts: 333
I had some interesting bidding problems the other day (most of which I completely flunked). First up was this one.

Playing Acol, I opened 1D first in hand on:

S JTx
H QJTx
D AKJ9xx
C -

Partner responded 2C (shows 9+) and RHO weighed in with 2H. Now what?
  #268  
Old 09-19-2017, 07:09 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrick View Post
I had some interesting bidding problems the other day (most of which I completely flunked). First up was this one.

Playing Acol, I opened 1D first in hand on:

S JTx
H QJTx
D AKJ9xx
C -

Partner responded 2C (shows 9+) and RHO weighed in with 2H. Now what?

Between pass and 3D for me. Do you recall the vulnerability? A pass at fav is worth considering because there's a potential misfit brewing up and a re-opening X from pard is nailed on. 2HX [or even 3HX if LHO feels like they're being obstructive] could be a profitable spot sitting over declarer with 2 natural trump winners, balance of the points, plus maybe a diamond ruff for pard.

3D is prob the normal bid and gives pard options. They will pass this with a minimum club hand, they have a Western cue bid available when they have extras [which must be a spade stop from the bidding] which will get you to 3N when it is right. If they're very shapely with 2 or 3 small diamonds they can also look for 5D.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 09-19-2017 at 07:11 PM.
  #269  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:07 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
I had a bit of a disaster last week. My partner opened 3NT and I passed holding a balanced 10 HCP (no aces). I thought he had a long solid minor; he had 25 points. Of course, the bidding should have gone 2C - 2NT - 3NT - 6NT (which made at every table).
__________________
Quartz
  #270  
Old 09-20-2017, 01:57 PM
merrick is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Over here
Posts: 333
Quartz - Ouch. Sympathy. But don't worry, I've got a bigger one.

Same session as the above, fourth in hand I pick up:

S ATxxx
H x
D x
C AKxxxx

and am wondering the best bid over a red-suit opening when LHO opens 1D and partner overcalls 2C(!)
I force with 2D and partner responds 2H. Then, thinking we were in a game-forcing situation (pickup partner, very much undiscussed situation) and not wanting to conceal my trump holding any longer, I bid 3C.
Partner did not agree about the game-forcing and passed with:

S K
H Axxx
D Axx
C QTxxx

Playing a lay-down grand slam in a part score was not the high point of my session.

Still don't know how it should have been bid. (1D)-2C-2D-2H-2S-3C-?


Busy Scissors Vulnerability was all-vul. Pass would probably have turned out better, but it still feels like the hand has too much strength to go quietly. And if partner has a one-suited hand, he may go to 3C instead of doubling...

Anyhow, that's the intro to the big question. Over 3D partner forces with 3H, and whether you punt 3NT or retreat to 5D, the next you hear from him is 6C! Now, do you leave him in it or run to 6D?
  #271  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:38 PM
K364's Avatar
K364 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,784
Merrick - partner might bid 2NT instead of 3C. Either way, getting to 7 is difficult. It depends upon what ace-asking options you have. Ideally, after finding out you have all the aces, you want to show partner you have the club king by asking for kings. Partner might bid 7 then with the KQ of spades. But 5NT asking for kings might get you over 6C, not having the king of spades.
  #272  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:40 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Bidding 3C seems like simple suit preference. Partner is showing 5+ clubs, you have 6, including AK so there are no trump losers. You have two aces so can bid 4NT (straight Blackwood or 0314 RKCB) and cope with any response partner makes. Partner shows 2 aces so you bid 7C. Note that you can't do this if you play 1430 RKCB as you can't cope with the 5D response.
__________________
Quartz
  #273  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:41 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrick View Post
Quartz - Ouch. Sympathy. But don't worry, I've got a bigger one.

Same session as the above, fourth in hand I pick up:

S ATxxx
H x
D x
C AKxxxx

and am wondering the best bid over a red-suit opening when LHO opens 1D and partner overcalls 2C(!)
I force with 2D and partner responds 2H. Then, thinking we were in a game-forcing situation (pickup partner, very much undiscussed situation) and not wanting to conceal my trump holding any longer, I bid 3C.
Partner did not agree about the game-forcing and passed with:

S K
H Axxx
D Axx
C QTxxx

Playing a lay-down grand slam in a part score was not the high point of my session.

Still don't know how it should have been bid. (1D)-2C-2D-2H-2S-3C-?


Busy Scissors Vulnerability was all-vul. Pass would probably have turned out better, but it still feels like the hand has too much strength to go quietly. And if partner has a one-suited hand, he may go to 3C instead of doubling...

Anyhow, that's the intro to the big question. Over 3D partner forces with 3H, and whether you punt 3NT or retreat to 5D, the next you hear from him is 6C! Now, do you leave him in it or run to 6D?
Yeah 2S all day there on that one Merrick, don't think 3C is right. From the sequence you suggest it then looks like you've got a solid cue-bidding train that will take you to 6. 7 isn't on the cards for a pickup partnership and I'm not sure any natural methods get you there, as don't you need to diagnose the KS being stiff as the critical card for grand?

Second one I wouldn't dream of taking that out - when partner stands on their chair and takes 3N out into 6C you've just got to let them get on with it unless it's incontrovertibly clear to take action. Here it's nowhere near that as you've bid your hand fine and certainly don't have a 6D bid.
Doing that in a real partnership can end them, as you're basically saying you don't trust partner's judgement. Otherside of the coin is that removing making 3N contracts into a fatuous 6C slam isn't great for partnership harmony, either. So did it make? At least you'll know if you should play with this person again!
  #274  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:43 PM
Dead Cat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,267
On the grand slam hand, it's hard to see what you did wrong. As a novice myself, even without any prior agreement I hope I would recognise your bid of opponent's suit as being forcing for at least one round. So as your partner I would have bid 2H (to show my second suit), as per the actual situation. Clearly it's then up to you to describe your hand, which you do by naming your longest (and strongest, as it happens) suit. Back to me, I can see I have an opening hand, you have forced so clearly you have some strength or shape, and you have just agreed my longest suit as trumps. So I don't need to know whether your intention was to force to game or not - quite clearly we have an excellent fit in clubs so I should be pushing for game anyway. Had you bid 2S instead, I think that would have created more confusion. It seems to me (1D)-2C-2D-2H-3C is a fine sequence. My next bid is a little trickier, it would be nice if we could start cue bidding with 3D (first-round control in diamonds), followed by 3S from you (first-round control in spades but not hearts). But even if this works, my problem is I don't get to find out about your very useful singletons under my aces. At this point I probably bid 3NT. Given your shape and the fit (you can assume I have 5 clubs due to the earlier bidding), I think you can then ask for aces, and on hearing I have 2, go on to kings. However, when I tell you I have one king, you don't know what colour it is, and you still don't know about my spade singleton. Does that mean you have to leave 6C to play? I'm really struggling to see how we could get to 7C or 7NT, but hopefully an expert will be along shortly.

On your other hand (where we don't know partner's holding yet), it looks like a horrible misfit (perhaps explaining Busy Scissors's preference for defending on it). It looks to me like 3NT is a better bid than 5D, you're probably losing 2 heart tricks but have the suit stopped after that, and although partner might assume you have a spade stopper, you'd be unlucky if oppos can reel off 5 spade tricks. If partner does bid 6C over your 3NT, I think you can assume he is very long in clubs and I wouldn't try to change to diamonds, he could easily be void in diamonds.

ETA: I see the better players have responded while I was typing.

Last edited by Dead Cat; 09-20-2017 at 02:44 PM.
  #275  
Old 09-30-2017, 01:03 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
I've got a question about claiming. I know that when declarer makes a claim, she's not allowed to finesse unless she says so when she's claiming. But does that also apply to other declarer techniques like squeeze plays and throw-ins? I remember a hand many years ago where the declarer claimed his contract and I could see that the claim was incorrect but challenging the claim would have told him where the problem lay and and allowed him to make the contract. Catch-22.
__________________
Quartz
  #276  
Old 09-30-2017, 02:24 PM
Some Call Me... Tim is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 1,821
My understanding (and it's from 20 years ago, so take it with a grain of salt) is that on an underspecified claim you can basically lay the cards down and assume the claimant took the worst plausible decision at each option. What 'plausible' means may somewhat depend on the field, but missing a squeeze or managing to screw up transportation are likely to be plausible misplays.

Challenging the claim would involve you looking for a plausible way for him to fail to make the contract, not the reverse of letting him see the cards and getting to retroactively assert the ideal line.
  #277  
Old 09-30-2017, 04:53 PM
OldGuy is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Very east of Foggybog, WI
Posts: 5,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Call Me... Tim View Post
My understanding (and it's from 20 years ago, so take it with a grain of salt) is that on an underspecified claim you can basically lay the cards down and assume the claimant took the worst plausible decision at each option.
No you don't get to assume the worst possible play. For example in running a suit, you assume play is from the top so with AKx2 in your hand and one card outstanding, you assume A is lead first not 2. One "worst "assumption you do make is you may not first pull trump after an unspecified claim so if there's an outstanding trump it often takes a trip by roughing one of your winners even if it could have been extracted.
  #278  
Old 09-30-2017, 05:20 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
I've got a question about claiming. I know that when declarer makes a claim, she's not allowed to finesse unless she says so when she's claiming. But does that also apply to other declarer techniques like squeeze plays and throw-ins? I remember a hand many years ago where the declarer claimed his contract and I could see that the claim was incorrect but challenging the claim would have told him where the problem lay and and allowed him to make the contract. Catch-22.
You can no doubt claim on a squeeze in the expert game (I believe Zia does this, pour le panache), but good luck doing that down the club. Would be pretty funny to try - Claiming 6, squeezing east in the pointed suits, followed by a 10 min explanation to Doris and Agnes.

I have had a similar situation to what you describe, with an opp claiming on a marked finesse, my pard (being more perceptive than me) refusing it because there were transportation issues with the dummy, thus alerting declarer to the problem, so he makes the contract. I don't know what the answer is - One for the secretary birds on the bridge forums [who will unequivocally answer any ruling issue IME].
  #279  
Old 09-30-2017, 05:41 PM
K364's Avatar
K364 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,784
Don't worry about alerting the declarer to lines of play or possible holdings because when declarer claims play is suspended. There will be no more playing, just analysis as to the correctness of the claim.
  #280  
Old 09-30-2017, 09:00 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
I had one today where I claimed with a marked finesse against RHO for a queen. LHO had already shown out twice and I had already finessed against the queen once. I claimed without stating I would take the finesse again. When they acted unsure, I said "taking the marked finesse". They called the director anyway, who ruled the claim as valid because it was inconceivable that I would not finesse again. So you are not forced to take an obviously silly line.
  #281  
Old 09-30-2017, 09:39 PM
Some Call Me... Tim is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 1,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post
No you don't get to assume the worst possible play. For example in running a suit, you assume play is from the top so with AKx2 in your hand and one card outstanding, you assume A is lead first not 2. One "worst "assumption you do make is you may not first pull trump after an unspecified claim so if there's an outstanding trump it often takes a trip by roughing one of your winners even if it could have been extracted.
None of what you said contradicts what I said. Are you unaware of the definition of the word plausible? Heck, I even qualified it further by mentioning that how bad a play would be plausible would depend on the strength of the field.

Last edited by Some Call Me... Tim; 09-30-2017 at 09:41 PM.
  #282  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:07 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,742
After a three-week hiatus, I logged into PlayOK. I was hoping for some easy hands to warm up with. Instead, tragedy struck on the very first hand:
♠ -
AQJ82
QJ96
♣ AT85
Everyone is vulnerable. RHO deals and passes. You're playing SAYC with RKCB. You open One Heart. The auction continues One Spade, Two Diamonds, Two Spades; back to you.

What call do you make?
  #283  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:09 PM
Dead Cat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,267
I don't know SAYC, but my reading of the situation is that evidently the opponents have a big fit in spades, and your side have a reasonable fit in diamonds. You can't possibly play in NTs as you could lose all the spade tricks, so I don't think it would be implausible to bid 5D. That has the three advantages of agreeing diamonds as trumps (presumably your partner should read your hand as 5-4 H-D), telling partner you don't have a huge amount of points for your opening bid, and making it as hard as possible for the opponents to compete for the contract and/or reach slam in spades. LHO might bid 5S, which may not make, or they might pass. Not sure how your side can get to a slam if there is one (e.g. partner holds xxx xx AKxxxx KQ).
  #284  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:26 PM
K364's Avatar
K364 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,784
septimus I would bid 3S at this point. I expect to have a good shot at six diamonds. The only way to bail out at five is to have partner bid 3NT and then refuse to cue bid when I pull to 4D.
  #285  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:28 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by K364 View Post
septimus I would bid 3S at this point. I expect to have a good shot at six diamonds. The only way to bail out at five is to have partner bid 3NT and then refuse to cue bid when I pull to 4D.
This.
  #286  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:35 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
I too would bid 3S. Note that partner may still have four Hearts. 3S is a forcing bid agreeing diamonds, but 4H is likely easier to make than 5D.

Here's my own error:

LHO opens 1H. Partner overcalls 1S. RHO bids 2C. I'm holding SATxxx H- DKJTxxxx Cx. I jump to 4S. Opponents bid on to 6C making 7. I should have jumped to 5S.
  #287  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:57 PM
merrick is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Over here
Posts: 333
I'm with K364 - your hand has too much playing strength not to investigate slam.
3S looks the natural way to continue (unless it promises a Spade stop - you don't want to end up in 6NT!)
But I wouldn't expect partner to start cue-bidding CK or HK after 3S - 3NT - 4D. I think that to get to 6D, you'd have to bid 4C over partner's 3NT or 5C over 4D.

3C (assuming it's forcing) is worth considering, the trouble is it's asking LHO to bid 3S, and I'm not sure how you go on after 3C - (3S) - 4D (or even 3C - (3S) - 4H!)
  #288  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:23 PM
K364's Avatar
K364 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
I too would bid 3S. Note that partner may still have four Hearts. 3S is a forcing bid agreeing diamonds, but 4H is likely easier to make than 5D.

Here's my own error:

LHO opens 1H. Partner overcalls 1S. RHO bids 2C. I'm holding SATxxx H- DKJTxxxx Cx. I jump to 4S. Opponents bid on to 6C making 7. I should have jumped to 5S.
You let them play 6C? I wouldn't
  #289  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:10 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by K364 View Post
You let them play 6C? I wouldn't
That was another mistake that hand. 7S went 2 off - a fine save against a stone cold 7C, losing DA and CA. But hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?
__________________
Quartz
  #290  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:58 PM
K364's Avatar
K364 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,784
Quartz - so true.

It makes a difference as to what type of game. At IMP's you always take out insurance by bidding on - you can't get hurt too much and if their slam is making you'll get burned big time if you don't.

At Match Points you have to make the correct decision.
  #291  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:31 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
...
♠ -
AQJ82
QJ96
♣ AT85
... You open One Heart. The auction continues One Spade, Two Diamonds, Two Spades; back to you.

What call do you make?
Quote:
Originally Posted by K364 View Post
septimus I would bid 3S at this point. I expect to have a good shot at six diamonds. The only way to bail out at five is to have partner bid 3NT and then refuse to cue bid when I pull to 4D.
This is what I did! After my Three Spades it went Double, 3 NT, Pass.
I bid Four Diamonds; it went Pass, Five Diamonds, Pass.
I said Pass. Making Seven. Partner held
♠ QT9
3
AK872
♣ KQ42
The consolation was that we lost only 0.3 Imps! Out of 20 tables, only two bid and made six. One stopped in Four Diamonds; one Played Seven Diamonds Doubled down four!

I asked partner where I went wrong; he said that I should have bid 4 NT (RKCB) immediately over Two Spades. With a void???
But how should the auction have gone? Should partner cue-bid Clubs without the Ace? His NT bid made me worry about wasted values in Spades.

When partner bids Two Diamonds, my hand is huge ... but my Three Spade bid was very strong. (If I was just trying for 3NT I'd have passed 3NT. Did partner think the Double of 3 Spades scared me???)

Should I call this 100% partner's fault?

Last edited by septimus; 10-12-2017 at 09:35 PM.
  #292  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:17 AM
merrick is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Over here
Posts: 333
I think it's just a very hard hand to bid.
I agree that Blackwood from your side is pointless with the void. You might have tried 4C over 3NT to show CA (but then partner doesn't know about the Diamond support).
Partner might have realised after 4D that if all you wanted was to play 5D you could have bid it direct instead of 3S, so you must be looking for slam. Then he might have tried Blackwood himself (if you only have 1 ace he can stop in 5D) - but for all he knows there are two Spades to lose off the top.

To bid six with confidences, partner needs to find out about CA and the spade control - or you need to find out about CK and the Heart singleton - and with opponents crowding the bidding space that's just not easy.
  #293  
Old 10-13-2017, 04:18 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,742
My 3 Spades was ambiguous, but when I follow up by bidding 4 Diamonds, I think I'm promising spade control.

Partner has much more than needed for his 2 Diamond bid. Perhaps 4 Clubs would have been better instead of his 3 NT bid, especially since his spade stopper is so weak.

Perhaps I should have bid 4 Clubs instead of 4 Diamonds I think he could then infer I almost certainly have Diamond support. But I try to keep auctions straightforward, and didn't pass up the chance to make a forcing bid in Diamonds.

Do other Dopers play Bridge on-line? Any good sites other than BBase and PlayOK?
  #294  
Old 10-13-2017, 06:03 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I asked partner where I went wrong; he said that I should have bid 4 NT (RKCB) immediately over Two Spades. With a void???
Partner is partially wrong. There's a convention called Voidwood or Exclusion Blackwood. A bid of 4S, not 4NT would be required. Partner should respond according to your usual convention - using 1430 RKCB your partner responds 5D showing DAK. I'm not sure how you get to 7D from there. 5N would ask for partner's lowest King (excluding the king of trumps and implicitly excluding the king of the void suit), but a response of 6H commits you to 7D missing the king of clubs.
  #295  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:44 AM
K364's Avatar
K364 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,784
Yes, partner should have bid 4C rather than 3NT - it's IMPs and 5/6 diamonds must be cold whereas 3NT isn't guaranteed.
  #296  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:59 PM
K364's Avatar
K364 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,784
BTW, I definitely think that the 3S cue bid guarantees diamond support. With other types of powerful hands don't cue bid but bid fourth suit.

The only time 3S asks about playing in NT is when you've bid a few suits up to the 3 level without finding a major suit fit.

IMO
  #297  
Old 10-30-2017, 05:49 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Well roger me sideways with a dustpan. I've just come back from an individual event, and while the international-level members of the club were away competing elsewhere, a lot of the expert players were there. And I came top! By 5%: I scored over 68% and the next player scored 63%. I made a hash of only one of the hands I played, but where I really scored was in defence. Killer leads, killer defence. We defeated many contracts, and defeated them by greater margins than did others.
__________________
Quartz
  #298  
Old 10-30-2017, 07:45 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Well roger me sideways with a dustpan. I've just come back from an individual event, and while the international-level members of the club were away competing elsewhere, a lot of the expert players were there. And I came top! By 5%: I scored over 68% and the next player scored 63%.
Congratulations!
  #299  
Old 10-31-2017, 08:33 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Thank you. It was 24 boards so I had 24 partners over the evening.
__________________
Quartz
  #300  
Old 11-02-2017, 09:00 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,742
Congratulations, Quartz!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I had two bidding mishaps in my last session. We've agreed SAYC (with a few specific exceptions like RKCB and Inverted Minors) but AFAICT partner has never even Googled SAYC.

Vul against not in 2nd seat I hold
♠ AJ632
-
AQ5
♣ AQ965
My partner doesn't like it, but I usually open 1 Club with 5-5 blacks. Perhaps 1 Spade is preferable here since I have plenty strength to bid 1S, 3C and then 4C but I still opened 1 Club. (What do other Dopers do with 5-5 blacks?) Partner responded 2 NT with
♠ Q87
A43
K64
♣ K732
Perhaps 2NT here almost guarantees 3-3-3-4 specifically, but he's jumped in NT with livelier hands. The entire auction was
- - - Pass
1♣ Pass 2NT Pass
3♠ Pass 3NT Pass
4NT Pass 5♦ Pass
6♦ Pass 6♠ Pass
Pass Pass

I decided 4NT quantitative raise, but please bid a suit if you accept was the simplest way to proceed, especially since partner and I often disagree about bid's meanings. (I imagine there's a better bid in a well-practiced partnership.) When he bid 5D I thought he might have something like Qx - Axx - KJxxx - Kxx with 6D our best slam. Instead, his approach is to show Aces when he accepts. (He even said "why would I bid a new suit when we've already bid two suits?" Is that valid?) Six spades was a good result with 15 out of 20 pairs stopping in game.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

With nobody vulnerable, I'm in 4th chair and the auction starts Pass Pass 1 Spade. I overcall Two Hearts with
♠ J874
AJ432
KQ5
♣ A
That ends the auction since partner passes with
♠ A5
KT76
J62
♣ T853
We made three overtricks. (Lost only 2.5 imps since most pairs missed the game.) Partner volunteered that he was to blame; and I agree that the "Law of Total Tricks" suggests a 3H bid with his hand if we don't make 3H then (from his p.o.v.) the opponents probably make 3S.

But I have enough to Double first and then show Hearts, and would probably have done so if I had a doubleton in the unbid clubs instead of a singleton.

Dopers comments?
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:34 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017