Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:28 AM
Paul in Qatar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia
Posts: 12,863

How May I Flee and Avoid Extradition to the United States?


I do not need the answer fast.

The Epstein case brought this to mind. Once upon a time Israel would not extradite a Jew. This is no longer true. In the past, Brazil would not extradite the father of a child born in Brazil. Is this still true. Japan is often reluctant to extradite its own nationals. Some have hidden in Cuba for years.

If you had a lot of money, where could you hide? Is there a place to run for those on a fixed income?
__________________
800-237-5055
Shrine Hospitals for Children (North America)
Never any fee
Do you know a child in need?
  #2  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:50 AM
txjim is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 385
May need to define the crime, impacts whether a country will extradite you. Roman Polanski has been pretty comfortable in France since his departure from the US.
  #3  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:56 AM
Nansbread1 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: England
Posts: 362
Three steps to fulfil

1. flee. If you are free, aware of impending arrest and sufficiently unknown and crime of low calibre (airport notices not circulated) then you could flee easily using your own id. If high newsworthy crime then to avoid detection at airports or ports you will have to invest in fake documents

2. Avoid detection in new country. You are safe until arrested. If you commit another crime or try to travel even after decades, you could be caught

3. If detected. Then use all your money to hire the best lawyers to avoid deportation.

Thats all there is to it. You will be a nervous wreck at all3 stages.

Last edited by Nansbread1; 08-11-2019 at 08:57 AM.
  #4  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:36 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,407
Many places refuse extradition of people who face the death penalty at home. I think that includes every country in Europe.
So what you do is, first you flee to Texas to rape a white girl and/or kill a few people there; hop on the first plane to Florence to enjoy la dolce vita then write "I totally did it and I'd do it again for a dollar ! And btw BBQ SUCKS !" to the newspapers & cops to make sure they convict you to fry.

Last edited by Kobal2; 08-11-2019 at 09:36 AM.
  #5  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:45 AM
friedo's Avatar
friedo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 24,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Many places refuse extradition of people who face the death penalty at home. I think that includes every country in Europe.
So what you do is, first you flee to Texas to rape a white girl and/or kill a few people there; hop on the first plane to Florence to enjoy la dolce vita then write "I totally did it and I'd do it again for a dollar ! And btw BBQ SUCKS !" to the newspapers & cops to make sure they convict you to fry.
Many jurisdictions will happily waive the possibility of capital punishment to get fugitives back.
  #6  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:58 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by friedo View Post
Many jurisdictions will happily waive the possibility of capital punishment to get fugitives back.
Yes, but Texas ?
  #7  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:11 AM
Alpha Twit's Avatar
Alpha Twit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Somewhere south of normal
Posts: 2,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Yes, but Texas ?
Absolutely, just remember, you don't need a needle in the arm to have an execution. All you need is a guard that's suddenly just fascinated with the sports section in the newspaper while the powers that be do what they believe needs to be done. Much simpler and faster with no pesky appeals to spoil their plans.

Tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.
__________________
Ask not the Dopers a question for you will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know.
  #8  
Old 08-11-2019, 11:26 AM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is online now
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,356
There are many countries with whom the U.S. has no extradition treaties, including Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia. . . Wikipedia has a list of countries that extradite to the U.S., along with a map.

That doesn't mean these countries won't deport you for some other reason. You could be deported for not having a valid visa, for instance. To avoid this, you could establish legal residence in one of these countries before committing the crime in the U.S., or you could run to a country that has poor law enforcement (possibly a failed state). Somalia, for example, has no extradition treaty with the U.S., and has such a weak government that they would probably never do anything about you living there illegally.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #9  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:02 PM
Atamasama's Avatar
Atamasama is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,745
Ira Einhorn comes to mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Einhorn

Murdered his ex-girlfriend and fled to France, he was convicted in absentia and French authorities were worried he’d be sentenced to death if extradited. He hid in France for 34 years before Pennsylvania passed a law allowing a person to be re-tried if their initial trial occurred without their involvement . He was then extradited, re-tried, convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment.

So it didn’t work forever but he escaped justice for more than three decades at least.
  #10  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:20 PM
psychonaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by txjim View Post
May need to define the crime, impacts whether a country will extradite you. Roman Polanski has been pretty comfortable in France since his departure from the US.
This has nothing to do with his alleged crime and everything to do with the fact that Polanski is a French citizen. France doesn't allow its own citizens to be extradited, period.
  #11  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:26 PM
psychonaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nansbread1 View Post
Three steps to fulfil

[…]

Thats all there is to it. You will be a nervous wreck at all3 stages.
I think you're rather missing the point of the OP, which is that there are certain countries where you are not, in fact, in danger of arrest and extradition, at least if you meet certain requirements. I doubt Ronnie Biggs was much of a nervous wreck in Brazil, where he was immune from extradition by dint of his Brazilian child. Or at least, he had no reason to be afraid of the state—as it turned out, some private citizens from the UK did once attempt an extrajudicial extradition (read: kidnapping).
  #12  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:51 PM
PastTense is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut View Post
France doesn't allow its own citizens to be extradited, period.
False. It certainly allows it to other European Union members:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Arrest_Warrant
  #13  
Old 08-11-2019, 04:55 PM
ASL v2.0 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
Somalia, for example, has no extradition treaty with the U.S., and has such a weak government that they would probably never do anything about you living there illegally.
But then the US government would have fewer qualms about running roughshod over the sovereign rights of a failed state. Also, a relatively weak government (and we ARE talking about a failed state here) would likely be easier to coerce by, say, withholding aid and assistance. So, depending on the crime (if it’s a particularly serious one or just happens to draw a lot of publicity), a failed state might not be so secure.
  #14  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:03 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is online now
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL v2.0 View Post
But then the US government would have fewer qualms about running roughshod over the sovereign rights of a failed state. Also, a relatively weak government (and we ARE talking about a failed state here) would likely be easier to coerce by, say, withholding aid and assistance. So, depending on the crime (if it’s a particularly serious one or just happens to draw a lot of publicity), a failed state might not be so secure.
I don't think the U.S. would invade Somalia in order to catch one fugitive, unless it's someone like Edward Snowden. As far as I know, Somalia gets no aid from the U.S. When it comes to imposing sanctions, there's little the U.S. could do to Somalia that it hasn't already done to itself.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #15  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:03 PM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 42,831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
So what you do is, first you flee to Texas to rape a white girl and/or kill a few people there; hop on the first plane to Florence to enjoy la dolce vita then write "I totally did it and I'd do it again for a dollar ! And btw BBQ SUCKS !" to the newspapers & cops to make sure they convict you to fry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Yes, but Texas ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha Twit View Post
Absolutely, just remember, you don't need a needle in the arm to have an execution. All you need is a guard that's suddenly just fascinated with the sports section in the newspaper while the powers that be do what they believe needs to be done. Much simpler and faster with no pesky appeals to spoil their plans.

Tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.
Moderating

I know this is mostly joking, but lets stay away from political commentary.

Also, while this does involve discussion of how the law might be evaded, I assume the OP and other participants are not themselves planning to leave the US. However, please keep the discussion hypothetical.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator
  #16  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:43 PM
drachillix is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: 192.168.0.1
Posts: 9,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
I don't think the U.S. would invade Somalia in order to catch one fugitive, unless it's someone like Edward Snowden.
Invade, no. Task one of the local in country CIA peeps to engage a few locals for a kidnapping....oh yes.
__________________
Rumor has it, I fix computers. Sometimes it even works after I fix it...
  #17  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:00 PM
Alpha Twit's Avatar
Alpha Twit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Somewhere south of normal
Posts: 2,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
Moderating

I know this is mostly joking, but lets stay away from political commentary.
Fair point, your polite suggestion is welcomed.
__________________
Ask not the Dopers a question for you will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know.
  #18  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:02 PM
Northern Piper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by PastTense View Post
False. It certainly allows it to other European Union members:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Arrest_Warrant

No, as the Wikipedia article says, a country can refuse to extradite one of its own citizens if it is prepared to prosecute the citizen itself. That's what France does, conduct the trial in its own courts.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #19  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:06 PM
Isosleepy's Avatar
Isosleepy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,658
Please note, even if a country doesn’t have an extradition treaty with the US, they can sell choose to extradite you. They just can’t be compelled by treaty. Less of a risk in North Korea, maybe.
  #20  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:21 PM
Monty's Avatar
Monty is offline
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Beijing, China
Posts: 23,133
IIRC, in athe past, Israel wasn't adverse to deporting Jews, just Jews who exercised the Right of Return.
  #21  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:32 PM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 42,831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
IIRC, in athe past, Israel wasn't adverse to deporting Jews, just Jews who exercised the Right of Return.
Meyer Lansky attempted to invoke the Law of Return to seek Israeli citizenship, but was denied on the grounds of a criminal past. He wasn't technically extradited to the US, but he was deported there and the US prosecuted him.
  #22  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:09 AM
md2000 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,909
Also, generally, for many countries the crime also has to be a crime in the country that is extraditing you.
  #23  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:05 AM
Martin Hyde is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,229
The shortest answer is: flee somewhere that will allow you to stay there indefinitely and that has no extradition agreement with the U.S.

Particulars will vary based on circumstance. For example the Ira Einhorn and Roman Polanski options require having citizenship in another country.

The big thing to keep in mind is escaping the United States and avoiding extradition is only half the battle. Many countries lack extradition treaties with US, however that doesn’t mean those countries are keen to have you as a guest. For example if you fled to Russia on a murder warrant, assuming you entered the country legally, your stay in Russia is time limited. They don’t just allow random non-Russian citizens with American nationality to live in their country indefinitely. If they knew you were a fugitive murderer they would in fact probably not want you to remain in the country on whatever visa you had entered. So while they have no formal extradition agreement, just like any country they can deport foreigners in accordance with their own laws/policies. Under international law they cannot just deport you to a random country, if you’re an American they will deport you to the US and you’d likely be promptly arrested.

Someone like Ed Snowden isn’t just benefiting from the lack of extradition treaty, but also that the government of Russia has allowed him, a non-national permission to reside there indefinitely. A grant unlikely to be extended to “undesirable” common criminals.
  #24  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:49 AM
psychonaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
Someone like Ed Snowden isn’t just benefiting from the lack of extradition treaty, but also that the government of Russia has allowed him, a non-national permission to reside there indefinitely. A grant unlikely to be extended to “undesirable” common criminals.
Nitpick: Snowden has not been allowed to stay in Russia indefinitely. Russia granted him a visa for temporary residence as an asylee, and like all other visas, it is time-limited and needs to be (and has been) periodically renewed.
  #25  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:01 AM
psychonaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
No, as the Wikipedia article says, a country can refuse to extradite one of its own citizens if it is prepared to prosecute the citizen itself. That's what France does, conduct the trial in its own courts.
Well, technically PastTense is right. France does usually refuse extradition (including European Arrest Warrants) for its own citizens on the grounds that it prefers to try them locally. However, there was at least one high-profile case where France acceded to an EAW. A Web search turned up the case of Mehdi Nemmouche, the shooter of the Jewish Museum in Brussels, who was extradited from France to Belgium in 2014.
  #26  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:52 AM
Northern Piper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,393
The issue never was tested in the French courts, though, because he agreed to the extradition to Belgium: Mehdi Nemmouche: Arrestation
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #27  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:27 AM
psychonaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,924
Oh, how interesting. I wonder why he did that. Maybe he thought it would be preferable to serve time in a Belgian prison than a French one?
  #28  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:06 AM
Martin Hyde is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut View Post
Nitpick: Snowden has not been allowed to stay in Russia indefinitely. Russia granted him a visa for temporary residence as an asylee, and like all other visas, it is time-limited and needs to be (and has been) periodically renewed.
You're picking a nit that is not there--I didn't say they gave him Russian citizenship or permanent residency, only that he has been allowed to stay there indefinitely. A claim that is true as of now and shows no immediate indicators of changing.
  #29  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:06 AM
Dana Scully is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dizzyland
Posts: 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
I do not need the answer fast.

The Epstein case brought this to mind. Once upon a time Israel would not extradite a Jew. This is no longer true. In the past, Brazil would not extradite the father of a child born in Brazil. Is this still true. Japan is often reluctant to extradite its own nationals. Some have hidden in Cuba for years.

If you had a lot of money, where could you hide? Is there a place to run for those on a fixed income?
even if I knew, I wouldn't post it on a message board that anyone can read.
  #30  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:17 PM
psychonaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
You're picking a nit that is not there--I didn't say they gave him Russian citizenship or permanent residency, only that he has been allowed to stay there indefinitely. A claim that is true as of now and shows no immediate indicators of changing.
Then I submit that you have a rather different notion of "indefinitely" than most people. As far as the Russian authorities are concerned, he has been given a specific date upon which his right to stay ceases. At or before that time, he must either leave the country or request permission to stay longer.
  #31  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:44 AM
bizerta is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: wilmington, ma
Posts: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Many places refuse extradition of people who face the death penalty at home. ...
I was watching one of those true-crime stories on TV about 20 years ago. IIRC, the murder was committed in California and the fellow fled to Ontario who refused to extradite because a conviction in CA could possibly lead to execution. Ontario changed its mind when California threatened to announce that all murderers should flee to Ontario. It was more subtle than that, but Ontario got the message. I do not recall whether the death penalty was given at his trial back in CA.
  #32  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:07 AM
Martin Hyde is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut View Post
Then I submit that you have a rather different notion of "indefinitely" than most people. As far as the Russian authorities are concerned, he has been given a specific date upon which his right to stay ceases. At or before that time, he must either leave the country or request permission to stay longer.
I mean unless you've been living with your head in the sand; Snowden is in Russia as personal gift of its President, who has spoken on the issue directly to the global press. Russia's legal mechanisms for allowing it are not meaningful, it is Putin's opinion and position on the matter. He is allowed to remain in Russia as long as Putin lets him, which since Putin has given no firm indication he plans to deport him any time soon, is a term indefinite in duration. Russia is not a laws based society, the date on whatever legal document he has, has no bearings on reality. He could be sent home tomorrow, or he could be allowed to stay 20 years beyond that date. It's entirely up to political will of Russian leadership.
  #33  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:08 AM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is online now
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizerta View Post
I was watching one of those true-crime stories on TV about 20 years ago. IIRC, the murder was committed in California and the fellow fled to Ontario who refused to extradite because a conviction in CA could possibly lead to execution. . .
Could it have been Charles Ng?
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #34  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:02 PM
md2000 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
Could it have been Charles Ng?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizerta View Post
I was watching one of those true-crime stories on TV about 20 years ago. IIRC, the murder was committed in California and the fellow fled to Ontario who refused to extradite because a conviction in CA could possibly lead to execution. Ontario changed its mind when California threatened to announce that all murderers should flee to Ontario. It was more subtle than that, but Ontario got the message. I do not recall whether the death penalty was given at his trial back in CA.
As I recall, that was Alberta not Ontario. He was caught shoplifting at which point he shot the security guard while trying to escape. Ironic because the initial murders in California were discovered when he was caught shop lifting.

Canada (not the province) declined to deport because California would not take the death penalty off the table. In the end, California said "fine - you can have a psycho mass murderer roaming your streets when his current shooting sentence is over." Eventually Canada saw the wisdom of allowing Ng to be deported.
  #35  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:27 PM
md2000 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,909
nm;.

Last edited by md2000; 08-13-2019 at 03:29 PM.
  #36  
Old 08-13-2019, 04:38 PM
Triskadecamus is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: I'm coming back, now.
Posts: 7,587
Central African Republic, Chad, Mainland China, Comoros, Congo (Kinshasa), Congo (Brazzaville), Djibouti, Equitorial Guinea, Mauritania, Micronesia, Moldova, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Nepal, Niger, Oman, Qatar, Russia, Rwanda, Samoa, São Tomé & Príncipe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, and Serbia do not have extradition treaties in force with the United States. Any request for extradition would be done as a separate diplomatic effort, and could be decades long in process. Movement between and among those countries, if accompanied with sufficient bribe money would delay the procedure each time.

It is worth noting that the motives of the governments of those countries might not be uniformly in line with your personal preferences, either originally, or continuing into the future.

Tris
__________________________
Nice place to escape to, but I wouldn't want to live there.

Last edited by Triskadecamus; 08-13-2019 at 04:40 PM.
  #37  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:58 AM
TokyoBayer's Avatar
TokyoBayer is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,508
My wife's classmate in university is a police officer in Taiwan. He has worked in their international division and one of his responsibilities included retrieving Taiwanese who had fled to countries which didn't have extradition treaties with Taiwan.

The suspect would be held by the host country. Acting as a Taiwanese official, he would seize their passport. Without a passport, the host country would deport the suspect to Taiwan, and he would accompany them on the flight. Once they entered Taiwan territory, he would then officially arrest them.
  #38  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:10 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoBayer View Post
My wife's classmate in university is a police officer in Taiwan. He has worked in their international division and one of his responsibilities included retrieving Taiwanese who had fled to countries which didn't have extradition treaties with Taiwan.

The suspect would be held by the host country. Acting as a Taiwanese official, he would seize their passport. Without a passport, the host country would deport the suspect to Taiwan, and he would accompany them on the flight. Once they entered Taiwan territory, he would then officially arrest them.
Yep, fleeing isn't as easy as it looks, particularly if the alleged crimes are of a violent or sexual nature and deemed credible by host country officials.

My WAG is that anyone who wants to evade authorities would need to go to a developing country with comparatively weak bureaucracy, such as in parts of Africa, Central America, the former Soviet Union, or parts of South and Southeast Asia (there's always North Korea). Local authorities might not care, and even if they do, they might not be able to find you right away, as you wouldn't necessarily be a high priority as long as you don't irritate locals, can hold down a job, and stay out of legal trouble in the host country.

However, said fugitive won't necessarily have an easy experience, as many of these countries have harsh conditions, and some might even be in a state of civil war. They could become victims of violent crime themselves and there would be no recourse - what are ya gonna do, complain to your embassy, lol? Don't expect good medical care, air conditioned apartments, or cable TV. The conditions might be unsanitary and medical care might be poor. If it's small crime, might be just easier to hire a lawyer and negotiate a light sentence.

Last edited by asahi; 08-14-2019 at 07:11 AM.
  #39  
Old 08-14-2019, 09:48 AM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman is online now
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
. . . Southeast Asia (there's always North Korea). . .
First North Korea isn't in Southeast Asia. Second, and more important, an American who enters North Korea without permission will almost certainly be thrown into prison. Remember what happened to Euna Lee and Laura Ling?
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #40  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:30 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
First North Korea isn't in Southeast Asia. Second, and more important, an American who enters North Korea without permission will almost certainly be thrown into prison. Remember what happened to Euna Lee and Laura Ling?
Understood - the parentheses were my lazy attempt at a humorous afterthought but I shouldn't have put it right after mentioning SE Asia. I don't disagree that North Korea is probably a bad idea for a multitude of reasons.
  #41  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:12 PM
Mama Zappa is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by drachillix View Post
Invade, no. Task one of the local in country CIA peeps to engage a few locals for a kidnapping....oh yes.
Even then, would they bother, for a run of the mill embezzler or murderer?

There is something to be said for the idea that living in Somalia is sufficient punishment.... so the ancillary question for the OP should be "what countries THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO LIVE IN" are safe from extradition".

Some of the tricks to avoid it might not be available to all people, as well, so when researching your options, bear that in mind. For example it's fairly unlikely I could ever father a child in Brazil (or, well, elsewhere either) short of marrying a local woman and adopting her child (would that count? and of course assuming Brazil had same sex marriage).

My ability to flee to Israel and use the "law of return" is somewhat limited; I have Jewish ancestry but it is on my mother's grandfather's side so it doesn't count. And after this well known case, Israel changed its laws regarding extradition of citizens anyway. The "person" involved wound up serving his time in an Israeli prison anyway - which might or might not have been better than a US prison. The story has a lot more details than I heard at the time - what a lovely family (not!!).

Honestly, I think your best bet would be to find a country where there is no explicit extradition treaty, that has a decent standard of living at least if you're "rich", get fake papers there, and live modestly because you don't want to draw attention.
  #42  
Old 08-17-2019, 10:18 PM
Northern Piper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
Canada (not the province) declined to deport because California would not take the death penalty off the table. In the end, California said "fine - you can have a psycho mass murderer roaming your streets when his current shooting sentence is over." Eventually Canada saw the wisdom of allowing Ng to be deported.
None of this is correct, but it seems to have entered into Urban Legend™ territory, as I've seen variants on it elsewhere.

There were two Americans, both caught in Canada around the same time, and both facing murder charges with death penalty: Ng (from California) and Kindler (from Pennsylvania). Their cases went through the Canadian courts at about the same rate.

The federal Crown prosecution service brought extradition proceedings against both of them, acting on behalf of the United States, as is common in extradition treaties. The Canadian courts held that the US had met the test for extradition, on the basis of the submissions made by the Canadian federal prosecutors.

The next step is to have an order of extradition granted by the Minister of Justice. Both Kindler and Ng argued that Canada was bound by the Charter to insist on a "no-killing" clause from the United States, as a condition of extradition.

The federal Justice Minister refused to impose that condition and confirmed the extradition of both Ng and Kindler. That then went to the courts, eventually ending up in the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court held that the Charter did not require the federal government to obtain a "no-killing" clause from the US as a condition of extradition:

Kindler v Canada (Minister of Justice)

Reference re Ng Extradition

Canada then extradited Kindler and Ng.

According to the wiki article, as of 2018 Ng was still on death row in California.

Kindler was reprieved from the death penalty last March: A 1982 murder, a capital sentence, two escapes and now, a reprieve from death row (Note that this news article repeats the idea that Canadian officials "...initially balked at extraditing him back to Philadelphia to face a death sentence, an illegal punishment north of the border." As I said, the fact that the federal government fought every step of the way to extradite him without a "no-killing" clause has been turned into the idea that federal officials objected to extraditing him - a complete reversal of what actually happened.)

So, net result: Canada extradited without conditions; neither man has been killed by the state in the US, nearly 30 years on.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."

Last edited by Northern Piper; 08-17-2019 at 10:20 PM.
  #43  
Old 08-17-2019, 10:31 PM
Northern Piper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,393
Note that in a subsequent case, United States v Burns, the Supreme Court reversed its position and found that it would violate the Charter for the feds to extradite without a "no-killing" clause. Doesn't seem to have caused much problem with extradition. US prosecutors may not like it, but they're not going to refuse to prosecute someone with a murder charge hanging over their head.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #44  
Old 08-19-2019, 12:59 AM
md2000 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,909
Thanks for the update. As I understood from the news at the time (if I'm recalling right), Ottawa did, as was standard, ask California to waive the death penalty while pursuing the extradition, but California adamantly declined. In the face of this refusal, the Canadian government eventually decided that extradition would happen anyway (since if I understand right, it is up to the minister to block any extradition where there is the question about the death penalty, and he declined to), not that Ottawa happily sought extradition without the guarantee from the beginning. As I understood from news reports at the time, Canada expected as had happened with other cases, other states, that eventually following negotiations California would agree. However, Ng's actions were particularly heinous. I'm not sure the political climate of California at the time, but they seemed not willing to back down in this case. Once extradition was confirmed, then Ng petitioned to block it and lost.

Last edited by md2000; 08-19-2019 at 01:00 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017