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  #6051  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:56 PM
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Why is Curly repeating 'Not again' over and over?

Did I miss some traumatic backstory?
Per the GITP forums, which jogged my memory, she had to run away from the first ambush of the Order, where V Forcecaged the entire party, and then she had to run away from Durkula getting his ass kicked. Now Durkon's extended family is beating on her team again.

Plus it's been a very short time since she was vampirized to begin with. It's been a bitch of a day.

FWIW, I am on Team Alessan with regards to the MITD. I think it fits better than any of the other suggestions. A Protean? Really? Just call it a shoggoth already...

I forget which one of you called RedCloak 'the personification of the Sunk Cost Fallacy', but I agree. He could turn away from the Plan, but then Right Eye, and abandoning Gobbotopia, would have been for nothing.
  #6052  
Old 08-15-2019, 05:04 PM
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I, likewise, am on Team Alessan.

I have become so completely sold on the idea that I'm basically willing to say that if Burlew chooses differently, it is Burlew who is wrong.
  #6053  
Old 08-15-2019, 05:04 PM
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Per the GITP forums, which jogged my memory, she had to run away from the first ambush of the Order, where V Forcecaged the entire party, and then she had to run away from Durkula getting his ass kicked. Now Durkon's extended family is beating on her team again.

Plus it's been a very short time since she was vampirized to begin with. It's been a bitch of a day.

FWIW, I am on Team Alessan with regards to the MITD. I think it fits better than any of the other suggestions. A Protean? Really? Just call it a shoggoth already...

I forget which one of you called RedCloak 'the personification of the Sunk Cost Fallacy', but I agree. He could turn away from the Plan, but then Right Eye, and abandoning Gobbotopia, would have been for nothing.
If he were to have that realization, though, he'd have to confront Xykon. And that has real problems. Shoot at Xykon and if you miss, he just might decide that all goblins everywhere needed to die. And he has the means by which to achieve such things.
  #6054  
Old 08-16-2019, 08:29 AM
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What's confusing about Break Enchantment is that there are two different ways that it's superior to Dispel Magic. The first is that Dispel Magic only removes ongoing magic: It's therefore useless against petrification (such as from Flesh to Stone), because there, the magic only happens at the moment of transformation, and afterwards you're left with a nonmagical statue, with nothing to dispel. But Break Enchantment can explicitly reverse even instantaneous effects.

The second limitation of Dispel Magic is that there are some spells, like Bestow Curse, that do have a continuing magical effect, but which explicitly state that Dispel Magic won't work on them. Break Enchantment also works on those, provided that the spell is low enough in level.

The limitation on spell level doesn't apply to Flesh to Stone, for the same reason that Dispel Magic doesn't work on it in the first place: There is no ongoing spell to dispel. There's no difference between a statue made by Flesh to Stone, a statue made by a cockatrice, a statue made by a basilisk, or a statue made by Prismatic Spray: All of them are nonmagical statues that used to be creatures, and the specific magical effect that produced them (including its spell level or even whether it was a spell) is irrelevant, because that magic is now gone.
  #6055  
Old 08-16-2019, 08:35 AM
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Oh, and I still say that Thor's plan isn't an abandonment of Redcloak's plan; it's its fulfillment. Redcloak's plan is to put enough power in the hands of the Dark One that the other gods will be forced to recognize him and deal with him as an equal. Thor recognizes that the Dark One has enough power that he wants to deal with him as an equal. The only surprising thing to Redcloak is that the Plan succeeded much more quickly than expected.

Or at least, that should be the only surprising thing to Redcloak. As others have pointed out, he does not have a strong history of thinking rationally about The Plan.
  #6056  
Old 08-18-2019, 11:43 AM
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A random thought occurred to me; where is Durkon's soul right now? Is being turned into stone a form of death, in which case his soul has made another trip to the afterlife? Or is he in a form of suspended animation and his soul is trapped in his stone body?
  #6057  
Old 08-18-2019, 12:00 PM
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Suspended animation, at least in OOTS world.

spoiler for Snips Snails and Dragon Tales.

SPOILER:
There's a Durkon story where he encounters a medusa. He persuades her to take a job in a clinic. She turns terminally ill patients to stone, in the hopes that future developments in clerical magic will be able to cure them. Metaphorically like cryogenic freezing of dead bodies, but with more chance of success. The implication is that no time passes for the patients while in stone form.
  #6058  
Old 08-18-2019, 12:08 PM
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Suspended animation, at least in OOTS world.
Xykon once talked about how evil beings needed to avoid being punished in the afterlife. This seems like another possibility. As an emergency measure, an evil wizard could carry a magic item that would turn him into stone as he was dying. Being in suspended animation might not be great but it beats eternal damnation.

That said, what happens if the stone body is damaged? Does it still hold the person's soul if you break off a limb? How about breaking off their head? Or grinding it up into gravel? At some point, does the person die for real?
  #6059  
Old 08-18-2019, 12:18 PM
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Oh, and I still say that Thor's plan isn't an abandonment of Redcloak's plan; it's its fulfillment. Redcloak's plan is to put enough power in the hands of the Dark One that the other gods will be forced to recognize him and deal with him as an equal. Thor recognizes that the Dark One has enough power that he wants to deal with him as an equal.
My guess is that it may be a fulfillment of Redcloak's plan, but not of the Dark One's plan. I'd be surprised if the DO's real objective isn't basically the same as Hel's: become the supreme god over all the others. The only difference is Hel was just going for supremacy over the Northern pantheon, while the DO wants it over all three. Now he may have told Redcloak something different, but that's just to get a young, idealistic cleric to enthusiastically work towards fulfillment.


A stray thought that came to me: If the gods ever wanted to give the goblins a level field, but didn't want to give up land of their followers, they could raise up a new continent somewhere, say to the east of the main continent, and decree that this new land belongs to goblinoid races.
  #6060  
Old 08-18-2019, 12:21 PM
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That said, what happens if the stone body is damaged? Does it still hold the person's soul if you break off a limb? How about breaking off their head? Or grinding it up into gravel? At some point, does the person die for real?
spoiler for Snips Snails and Dragon Tales.

SPOILER:
In the story mentioned above, the medusa's victims (before she takes her new job) actually are broken down into gravel. It is explicitly stated that they are still alive.


Also:

Celia didn't know how long she'd been transmuted.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html

Haley was stoned in the middle of a sentence, and resumed the sentence when the enchantment was broken.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html

It seems that no time at all passes for the person in stone form.

Last edited by Peter Morris; 08-18-2019 at 12:21 PM.
  #6061  
Old 08-18-2019, 12:53 PM
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Suspended animation, at least in OOTS world.

spoiler for Snips Snails and Dragon Tales.
(spoiler cut 'cause the tag does not work in a quoted post)

Please tell me
SPOILER:
the medusa's name was Alcor.
  #6062  
Old 08-18-2019, 02:27 PM
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That said, what happens if the stone body is damaged? Does it still hold the person's soul if you break off a limb? How about breaking off their head? Or grinding it up into gravel? At some point, does the person die for real?
From the Flesh to Stone description:
Quote:
If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities.
If you busted a person into gravel, you're going to want to track all the pieces and have a way to reassemble it before reversing the effect. That said, it doesn't specify a point where reversal is impossible. Which make for an interesting question: one if I took one small piece and reversed it -- can I still reverse the rest later or is the person dead now?

Last edited by Jophiel; 08-18-2019 at 02:29 PM.
  #6063  
Old 08-18-2019, 06:17 PM
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Which make for an interesting question: one if I took one small piece and reversed it -- can I still reverse the rest later or is the person dead now?
I'm speculating that you couldn't do a partial reversal. The spell turned the person into stone as a single action. Cancelling the spell would turn all of the statute back into all of the person - even if the statute had been broken up since the spell was cast.

At that point, some people might discover that the stones they used for building a chimney or wall used to be a person. I'm assuming chaotic evil wizards use this effect for practical jokes.
  #6064  
Old 08-18-2019, 06:47 PM
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(spoiler cut 'cause the tag does not work in a quoted post)

Please tell me
SPOILER:
the medusa's name was Alcor.
That would be good, but it was Melissa.
  #6065  
Old 08-18-2019, 07:38 PM
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I'm speculating that you couldn't do a partial reversal. The spell turned the person into stone as a single action. Cancelling the spell would turn all of the statute back into all of the person - even if the statute had been broken up since the spell was cast.
Makes sense. Never really came up in the opposite sense -- if a statued person lost some chips, no one worried if the missing chips became little lumps of flesh somewhere but maybe they did. So now, what's the range? If I take a part and travel a continent away, is the remainder still affected? What if I travel to another plane of existence? I suppose a fair DM ruling would just be that you needed to have 50.01%+ of the stone for the spell to be successful. At that point, I could ignore whether or not the remaining 49-odd percent was transmuted back or not.
  #6066  
Old 08-18-2019, 10:15 PM
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Of course, Stone to Flesh also works on ordinary, natural stone that was never fleshy (before now). So if you need all of the statue-bits for the reversal form to work, that might be a way to discover that the stone you have isn't natural.
  #6067  
Old 08-19-2019, 02:08 AM
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spoiler for Snips Snails and Dragon Tales.
SPOILER:
There's a Durkon story where he encounters a medusa.
Slight diversionary rant here:
SPOILER:
I HATE that DnD did this to Medusa when the perfectly generic name gorgon already exists. Like what they did to Pegasus, but compounded by them naming their khalkotaurus expy "gorgon" for an idiocy-in-naming twofer
  #6068  
Old 08-19-2019, 03:23 AM
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Slight diversionary rant here
It could have been worse. Just be glad they didn't decide to rename dragons as puffs.
  #6069  
Old 08-19-2019, 03:37 AM
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It could have been worse. Just be glad they didn't decide to rename dragons as puffs.
Naah, this is Gygax we're talking about - he'd have called them smaugs. I believe his motto was "First rip off Tolkien, then look around"
Until he was forced to go with fafnirs for legal reasons.
  #6070  
Old 08-19-2019, 07:10 AM
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You can't blame gorgons on Gygax. Medieval bestiaries had a "gorgon" as something resembled an armor-plated bull with noxious breath. In fact, rather a lot of D&D traces back to those medieval bestiaries.

One imagines that they were popular among much the same demographic as play D&D nowadays. Nerds have always been with us.
  #6071  
Old 08-19-2019, 08:19 AM
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You can't blame gorgons on Gygax.
You're right I can't blame him for first coming up with the idea of a bull-shaped monster called gorgon.

I can certainly blame him for including it under that name, one entry under "Medusae", and changing the breath from poison to petrifying. That's all on him.
Quote:
Medieval bestiaries
Topsel isn't mediaeval, and AFAIK he's the only period one who had a bull-shaped gorgon. I'm happy to be shown otherwise.[/quote]In fact, rather a lot of D&D traces back to those medieval bestiaries.[/quote]
That doesn't absolve Gygax of blame for not doing his research. And I mean, c'mon, ultimately he was just lazy - "Nick it from White or Fantastic Bestiary and call it done".
  #6072  
Old 08-19-2019, 08:26 AM
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Stupid quotes!
  #6073  
Old 08-19-2019, 08:26 AM
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Of course, Stone to Flesh also works on ordinary, natural stone that was never fleshy (before now). So if you need all of the statue-bits for the reversal form to work, that might be a way to discover that the stone you have isn't natural.
True that (although I wouldn't expect it to come up often). In that case, I'd likely rule that a petrified character who loses 50%+ of their body is dead and Stone to Flesh only restores life (if at all) to the major portion.

It occurs to me that I almost never used Stone to Flesh effects in my games or see it used in games I play. I suspect because it's either an effect where it's easily mitigated (either by player spells or the inevitable reversal scroll in a handy chest nearby) or it just wrecks the character for a single failed save. In neither case is it especially fun. But the net result is that I never spent much time considering what happens to a busted up statue-guy's soul in the meanwhile.
  #6074  
Old 08-19-2019, 08:42 AM
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OK, MrDibble, it sounds like you know more about this than I, so I will bow to your expertise.

But I'm still waiting for D&D stats for a bonnacon. Maybe even the devs have their limits.
  #6075  
Old 08-19-2019, 10:00 AM
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OK, MrDibble, it sounds like you know more about this than I, so I will bow to your expertise.

But I'm still waiting for D&D stats for a bonnacon. Maybe even the devs have their limits.
If you play 3.5 (or Pathfinder, probably), you're covered. In dung, probably, but still...
  #6076  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:18 AM
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1176. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html
  #6077  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:25 AM
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SPOILER:
I've not seen a God fade away like that before. Hel is a major god in their pantheon too. If she completely fades out, that's it for her, right? She can't come back? Does another god take on her duties then? Or do they have to wait until enough worshippers start thinking that there needs to be something like a God of Death? Loki's demeanor is worrisome too.
  #6078  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:38 AM
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We don't know enough about how the Stickworld deities work to guess at what happens if a deity stops existing, etc (especially from a major pantheon) but Loki is probably upset about both his daughter being obviously unwell and her desire to destroy him in the next world.
  #6079  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:49 AM
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Loki: *tricks Hel into giving up her ability to make clerics*
Hel: *reacts negatively*
Loki: *surprised pikachu face*
  #6080  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:59 AM
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We don't know enough about how the Stickworld deities work to guess at what happens if a deity stops existing, etc (especially from a major pantheon) but Loki is probably upset about both his daughter being obviously unwell and her desire to destroy him in the next world.
I think he also sees the truth in what she's saying. They still can't stop the Snarl.
  #6081  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:10 AM
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Loki: *tricks Hel into giving up her ability to make clerics*
Hel: *reacts negatively*
Loki: *surprised pikachu face*
Haha. Although maybe he didn't realize just how negatively it would affect her health. Although we learned that Odin got screwed up when his people stopped worshiping him last go-around so it couldn't have been a real surprise. Maybe we'll get more exposition in a week!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
I think he also sees the truth in what she's saying. They still can't stop the Snarl.
Maybe. But I assume he's on the "Convince the Dark One" train so he's got some reason to hope.
  #6082  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:19 AM
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Haha. Although maybe he didn't realize just how negatively it would affect her health. Although we learned that Odin got screwed up when his people stopped worshiping him last go-around so it couldn't have been a real surprise. Maybe we'll get more exposition in a week!
I'm sure. I was just amused at the idea that Loki, a CE god, would be genuinely surprised that someone doesn't love getting backstabbed.
  #6083  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:10 AM
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Maybe we'll get more exposition in a week!.
I have a feeling it will all be clear in less than a week.

Of internal comic time.
  #6084  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:24 AM
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My guess is that Hel's fading is supposed to show she's near the limits of her power. Presumably, this will be a plot point later on.
  #6085  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:42 AM
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I have a feeling it will all be clear in less than a week.

Of internal comic time.
At least my children will know.
  #6086  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:58 AM
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At least my children will know.
I actually LOL'd. Which would have been embarrassing on this conference call if I hadn't muted ahead of time.

Well done.

I agree with Nemo: this feels like a motif we're going to see later, but I don't know how.
  #6087  
Old 08-20-2019, 04:01 PM
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Is Thrym... giving her some divine mojo to help revitalize her? Maybe, maybe not, but it sure looks like that might be happening. And at the very least, he's been paying attention to what cheers her up. His feelings towards her are starting to look a little less pathetic.
  #6088  
Old 08-20-2019, 04:18 PM
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Maybe? I'm not seeing it that way. I'm seeing it as she overexerted herself and is now un-fading as she recovers, and that Thrym is basically just patting her on the shoulder.
  #6089  
Old 08-26-2019, 09:50 AM
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1177: Role Reversal
  #6090  
Old 08-26-2019, 10:35 AM
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My guess is that Hel's fading is supposed to show she's near the limits of her power. Presumably, this will be a plot point later on.
And by "later on" I clearly meant "in the next strip".
  #6091  
Old 08-26-2019, 02:22 PM
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So much for all those theories about why the Bet.
  #6092  
Old 08-26-2019, 03:30 PM
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"There seems to be some doctrinal flexibility when it comes to rubbing things in your face, specifically."

I like that line, but I also like that Burlew is subverting our expectations about Loki in the same way he did about Thor when Durkon finally met him.

I generally feel like Burlew falls into the "extremely creative but not a terribly great writer" camp, but I've for sure been enjoying the scenes we're getting with the Norse deities.
  #6093  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:00 AM
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1178: Rock Opera
  #6094  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:58 AM
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Wham! is not rock
  #6095  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:08 PM
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Why did they need to break the domination? Wouldn't the death of the vamps have broken that automatically?
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  #6096  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:39 PM
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one of the vamps is still on the loose?
  #6097  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:58 PM
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one of the vamps is still on the loose?
The surviving vampire is the only one we saw dominating a council member so maybe she was in charge of dominating all of them to give the orders later or something? In case the Exarch had to handle outside interference? I guess that would fit why everyone needed their domination broken.
  #6098  
Old 09-03-2019, 01:28 PM
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Would all of the dominated dwarves be a Dominion?
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  #6099  
Old 09-03-2019, 01:34 PM
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I guess the book is about over.
  #6100  
Old 09-03-2019, 04:05 PM
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I like the visuals on the de-stoning effect.
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