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  #151  
Old 05-30-2016, 08:16 PM
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Slightly off-topic: Have any of you toured the Everglades? I was shocked to see how up close and personal you are with the gators.

In fact, I saw a mom strolling the path holding her toddler's hand; the tyke was pulling, trying to release from her grip. A gator was just yards away. I prayed to the ogs that he not break free.


mmm
  #152  
Old 05-30-2016, 08:22 PM
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I just don't understand the rush to kill the animal. The gorilla was with the child for ten minutes without attacking. I wish they had given the agitated gorilla time to calm down after zoo staff removed the crowd. The staff might have been able to safely remove the child like its been done in other cases. I linked a couple of them last night. Today the news is also mentioning those cases where zoos saved the kid without killing the gorilla..

Shooting should have been the last option and not option #1. Much like SWAT teams do with humans, they could keep a rifle aimed at the gorilla. Drop him in his tracks if he makes any aggressive move towards the child. That's probably what was done in prior cases.
Exactly. This isn't exactly a wild animal-he's lived with people for 17 years. He's also not some hungry tiger, he's pretty close to being human and his keepers probably communicate quite well with him. I'm sure they could have gotten the kid safely away in some way if they'd tried.

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ACQUIRING?! You talk about it like it was some sort of slave, not an endangered great ape worth more than a stupid human child!
Where exactly do you think they are going to get another gorilla? There aren't many left. Personally, I think any gorilla's life is worth far more than any child's life simply based on their relative rarity. Kids are a dime a dozen. Gorillas, not.
  #153  
Old 05-30-2016, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard View Post
Slightly off-topic: Have any of you toured the Everglades? I was shocked to see how up close and personal you are with the gators.

In fact, I saw a mom strolling the path holding her toddler's hand; the tyke was pulling, trying to release from her grip. A gator was just yards away. I prayed to the ogs that he not break free.


mmm
Do you tour everglades frequently or was it just a one-off? If former, could you take a camera with you next time?
  #154  
Old 05-30-2016, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by spamforbrains View Post
Exactly. This isn't exactly a wild animal-he's lived with people for 17 years. He's also not some hungry tiger, he's pretty close to being human and his keepers probably communicate quite well with him. I'm sure they could have gotten the kid safely away in some way if they'd tried.
Once again, you have absolutely no knowledge of gorillas, the behavior of this particular gorilla, or of the specific situation, but you believe you know better than the trained professionals who actually had to deal with the situation.

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Where exactly do you think they are going to get another gorilla? There aren't many left. Personally, I think any gorilla's life is worth far more than any child's life simply based on their relative rarity. Kids are a dime a dozen. Gorillas, not.
The survival of gorillas as a species was in no way threatened by the death of this particular individual. I actually work with endangered species, and I could not in any way support this statement.
  #155  
Old 05-30-2016, 08:45 PM
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I think any gorilla's life is worth far more than any child's life simply based on their relative rarity. Kids are a dime a dozen. Gorillas, not.
Couldn't agree more. The gorilla actually did a better job of keeping an eye on the kid than mom did. The zoo should make the moat deeper so that the gravity and darwinism can do its job for the next kid that falls in. In the perfect world the mom would've gotten dropped in the enclosure as a distraction, while the kid was being rescued.
Unfortunately, the whole story will be forgotten in 5 minutes, when the latest Kim Whoredasian wardrobe malfunction becomes national news.
  #156  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:19 PM
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They should have shot the parents, next.
This.

Immediately.

In fact, let all the gorillas beat the shit out of this wonderful "mom" who somehow lost her 4-year old child long enough for the kid to breach an enclosure that had not been entered in 38 years the zoo has been open.

my guess is she had her head buried into her cellphone, playing candy crush or posting a message to her facebook page, telling all of her friends what a great mom she is by taking her spawn to the zoo.

I wonder how many "You go girl!", "You're a super-mom!" and "thumbs-up" she got right before they shot the gorilla.

My prediction:

1) Mom starts a "Go Fund Me" page for charitable contributions (to ease her trauma)
2) she sues the Cincinnati Zoo for permitting her kid climb the fence and enter the enclosure.

I am amazed at the responses in here defending the mother. Did anyone read the article? Cincinnati Zoo has never had a breach of that (or any other enclosure) for 38 years. I'd say that it was a reasonably safe place to take a child. The mother and child "discussed" him going into the water. Clearly, he announced his intentions, and instead of PAYING ATTENTION TO HER KID, a gorilla is shot.

I saw a video, and that looked to me as if the gorilla was being protective. Now, that doesn't mean the gorilla wouldn't have ripped the kid's arm from his body, but I didn't see a crazed animal pounding the kid apart.

I can understand why the zoo would not want to roll the dice and take the chance. So they made the only choice they thought was an option.

Unless there is a gaping hole that this kid could walk through (aside from the one in mom's head), I think I can confidently state that this parent wasn't paying attention. No mention of any "dad", so it would appear she was solely responsible.

Anyone here defending this twit either hasn't been outside in the last 15 years, or is defending her because they have their head buried in their cellphones, too. My personal observations since it was decided from on-high that every mouth-breathing fucktard is entitled to a smart phone is that people pay little to no attention to their vile offspring(s) for large swaths of time. God knows, they can't miss a "tweet" or check what their FB "friends" are lying about, or get the latest sports scores.

Those pics upthread with the child leashes are a perfect solution to the inattentive "parent". Gotta love 'merica!


To paraphrase Keanu Reeves (from Parenthood). You need a license to drive a car, own a dog... Hell, you need a license to catch a fish. But they will let any asshole be a parent.
  #157  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Q. View Post
In fact she's seething that anyone would dare suggest she might've paid closer attention to the kid.
Oh Im sure that's all she's seething at. Not what I am sure is a mountain of abuse on Facebook, Twitter, Message Boards, or the alleged petition signed by the 80,000+ Judgy-McJudgersons who are demanding she be thrown in jail. Im guessing tons of death threats, too. Its bad enough having some lookdown their nose at you and criticize your parenting; I cant imagine the abuse she is putting up with and its natural to dog your heels.[/quote]

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As for your final question - "Finally, what does it say about our society that we are more outraged at the death of an animal than we are grateful a child's life was saved." - for starters I guess it says that not everyone in our society adheres to a notion of moral absolutes or otherwise shares your apparent value system concerning such things.
Well, they absolutely should.
  #158  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
If captive bred animals can't be reintroduced to the wild, that calls into question that zoos save animals from extinction. They can't be reintroduced to the wild, and often species go extinct due to habitat loss, so there's no where to reintroduce them.
Right. Therefore, it might be likely the only specimens left will have to live in zoos. Hopefully they can be bred to continue the species.

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I think most zoo animals that are allowed to breed, are bred for the zoo trade, not eventual reintroduction to the wild. Excess animals are killed, not set free.
I can only speak for American zoos, where I imagine this practice would be highly illegal. I do acknowledge there are bad zoos around the world.

Last edited by russian heel; 05-30-2016 at 09:29 PM.
  #159  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by crypto View Post
This.

Immediately.
Well, that would be hard to do since only the Mom was there, shocking you missed that since you were obviously there.

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In fact, let all the gorillas beat the shit out of this wonderful "mom" who somehow lost her 4-year old child long enough for the kid to breach an enclosure that had not been entered in 38 years the zoo has been open.
Threaten the Mom with physical violence. That's the answer to society's problems. Take off your hairshirt.

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my guess is she had her head buried into her cellphone, playing candy crush or posting a message to her facebook page, telling all of her friends what a great mom she is by taking her spawn to the zoo.
Or she was also busy watching the kids of other parents. Which was the case. Bet you didn't know that, did you.


Quote:
My prediction:

1) Mom starts a "Go Fund Me" page for charitable contributions (to ease her trauma)
Well, almost seeing your child ripped to shreds by a wild animal is pretty traumatizing. She may also have to raise money for a security system to protect her family from the idiots who have called for her to be shot once they find out her identity.

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2) she sues the Cincinnati Zoo for permitting her kid climb the fence and enter the enclosure.
Maybe she should. It has been suggested here the zoo might not be child-proofed.

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I am amazed at the responses in here defending the mother. Did anyone read the article?
You clearly haven't.

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Cincinnati Zoo has never had a breach of that (or any other enclosure) for 38 years. I'd say that it was a reasonably safe place to take a child.
There's a first time for everything.

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The mother and child "discussed" him going into the water. Clearly, he announced his intentions, and instead of PAYING ATTENTION TO HER KID, a gorilla is shot.
Many kids this age are little fucking assholes and are hard to control. Even the best parents make mistakes.

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Unless there is a gaping hole that this kid could walk through (aside from the one in mom's head), I think I can confidently state that this parent wasn't paying attention. No mention of any "dad", so it would appear she was solely responsible.
Well, of course she wasn't. She was playing Spider Solitaire on her iPhone, right?

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Anyone here defending this twit either hasn't been outside in the last 15 years, or is defending her because they have their head buried in their cellphones, too.
I was outside 20 minutes ago, and I'm currently watching TV. Im not defending the mother either, but am willing to learn more about what really happened and point out parenting isn't as easy as people claim it is here.

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My personal observations since it was decided from on-high that every mouth-breathing fucktard is entitled to a smart phone is that people pay little to no attention to their vile offspring(s) for large swaths of time. God knows, they can't miss a "tweet" or check what their FB "friends" are lying about, or get the latest sports scores.
Your entire premise for this post is that her retarded kid jumped into the enclosure, after being told many times not to, so the mother HAD to be on her cell phone. Its ridiculous and you have no proof.

This is the dumbest post so far here, and believe me there's been a lot of them here, including the 1 or 2 Jackasses who said the Gorillas life is more important than the child's. I hope their kids get attacked by a wild animal and see how it feels.

Last edited by russian heel; 05-30-2016 at 09:50 PM.
  #160  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:51 PM
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To the best of my knowledge highways are not marketed as areas for children to come to play, learn, and be entertained.
neither are gorilla habitats in zoos. As was described upthread it was a concerted effort to get in.

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OTOH when playgrounds for preschoolers are built near busy roads there is great care put into the design to help ensure safety, with fences, gates, stop signs, reduced speed limits, etc.
Great, none of those come close to the barricade at the zoo which is what I was going for. And anywhere I've lived the highway was separated by a 4 foot fence which is easily breached. try Googling: "child, wandered on highway" and see what you get.
  #161  
Old 05-30-2016, 10:02 PM
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I am amazed at the responses in here defending the mother. .
Nobody is defending the mother.
  #162  
Old 05-30-2016, 10:13 PM
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Little more to say here that belongs in this forum but I will contribute this about reintroduction programs since the subject was brought up:
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Reintroduction programs, by which animals raised or rehabilitated in AZA-accredited zoos or aquariums are released into their natural habitats, are powerful tools used for stabilizing, re-establishing, or increasing in situ animal populations that have suffered significant declines. Reintroductions may include animals that have spent some of their early life-stages being cared for in a “head-start” program that gives them a greater chance of survival than those born in the wild, those brought in for rehabilitations from illness or injury, or those that are offspring of animals that have had several generations cared for by AZA-accredited institutions.
Note that the only successful example listed of a predator being reintroduced has been the Red Wolf program and that these have never been zoo animals. More detail here:
Quote:
The goal from the start of the breeding program has been to put the Red Wolf back into its natural habitat. Great care had to be taken to maintain the wolves' natural instincts and minimize human contact.
In general reintroduction of predators has failed.
Quote:
Most large, captive-bred carnivores die if returned to their natural habitat ... The study team looked at survival rates for 17 species of reintroduced mammals, including tigers, wolves, lynx, cheetahs, brown bears, and otters.

More than half of the fatalities were attributed to human causes, such as vehicle collisions and deliberate shootings.

Captive-born carnivores were also more likely to starve to death than their wild-bred counterparts, as well as become more susceptible to viruses and diseases, the study showed.
The Black-footed ferret is a listed predator on that top list as a success since some have reproduced in the wild but as much this article characterizes it as a success the reality remains that there have been approximately 4,500 ferrets released in the wild, 150-220 each year, and the result is a world wild population estimated as only 300.

This article discusses the great caution that needs to be taken even for non-predators being reintroduced after being displaced.
Quote:
As their natural habitats continue to be destroyed, increasing numbers of displaced endangered mammals are taken to sanctuaries and rehabilitation centres worldwide. The ultimate goal of these centres is often reintroduction: to return these animals to wild populations. In a new study published today in Scientific Reports, however, Graham L Banes and Linda Vigilant of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, caution that such reintroductions can act as a form of genetic translocation. By using genetic analysis to assess a subset of historical reintroductions into Tanjung Puting National Park, Indonesia, they found that orang-utans from a non-native and genetically distinct subspecies were unwittingly released and have since hybridized with the Park's wild population. As orang-utan subspecies are thought to have diverged around 176,000 years ago, with marked differentiation over the last 80,000 years, the researchers highlight the potential for negative effects on the viability of populations already under threat.
  #163  
Old 05-30-2016, 10:22 PM
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Where exactly do you think they are going to get another gorilla? There aren't many left. Personally, I think any gorilla's life is worth far more than any child's life simply based on their relative rarity. Kids are a dime a dozen. Gorillas, not.
Oh. My. Lord. Are you serious?
  #164  
Old 05-30-2016, 10:25 PM
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Oh. My. Lord. Are you serious?
She obviously hasn't bought a child lately.
  #165  
Old 05-30-2016, 10:30 PM
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She obviously hasn't bought a child lately.
Yeah, they cost a shit ton of bananas.
  #166  
Old 05-30-2016, 10:53 PM
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Don't forget the infinite monkey theorem.
Yeah but it only takes one person to create the works of Shakespeare. Seems far more efficient than rounding up an infinite number of apes and typewriters.. Especially since you have to check their work to figure out when they actually did it.

Last edited by drewder; 05-30-2016 at 10:54 PM.
  #167  
Old 05-30-2016, 11:17 PM
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Pylesos, even though you aren't addressing another poster, you are out of bounds with this post.
I'm sorry, you're saying I was out of bounds calling the woman in question "fat" and "cunty"?
A quick googling reveals that she's not just fat, she looks dangerously obese: about 5'4", and easily 350 lbs.
The "cunty" part is more subjective, of course, but what other conclusion could you reach taking into account the statements she's made:

1) It wasn't her fault th kid climbed in, she was busy taking pictures.

2) Kid said that he wanted to go swim with the gorilla, still not her fault...she was busy.

Unexpectedly mom and dad have different last names. The media keeps referring to him as her husband

Equally shocking, the media mentions that another woman, who has kids with same dad (shocking again) felt bad for mom.

Is posting factual information ( at least as far as calling this woman "fat") against the rules of this forum?

Last edited by Pylesos; 05-30-2016 at 11:20 PM.
  #168  
Old 05-30-2016, 11:32 PM
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Moderator Note


Pylesos, if you want to discuss the moderating decision, start an ATMB thread, although I think the part of my note that you didn't quote should answer your question. At any rate, do not discuss it further in this thread.
  #169  
Old 05-30-2016, 11:36 PM
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I know this is a tangent but after watching some videos I am shocked at the sheer physicality, strength, and speed of gorillas. Intellectually of course I know this stuff but when you see videos like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T0z1CT-nR8

It totally blows my mind the power this animal really has, it almost doesn't look real.
  #170  
Old 05-30-2016, 11:57 PM
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Unexpectedly mom and dad have different last names. The media keeps referring to him as her husband
Many married people have different last names. Welcome to 2016.
  #171  
Old 05-31-2016, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by StanielMarsh View Post
When it was revealed that the kid is African-American, the social mobs are even less sympathetic it seems!

The mother, Michelle Greggs, has released a statement on facebook.

Some commenters suggested that SHE was the real gorilla and her son an ape-like cretin
Before that was revealed, there was this https://twitter.com/IsaIbnOfficial/s...28842225324034
Quote:
That gorilla was taken from it's homeland, put in captivity, and then killed to preserve White life. That sounds familiar.

— Isa Ibn (@IsaIbnOfficial) May 29, 2016
And the gorilla was born in a Texas zoo.
  #172  
Old 05-31-2016, 12:21 AM
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But you're talking about a ZOO where the primary consideration is the welfare of the animals and safety of the visiting public. That's exactly why the animals are in enclosures that are MEANT to protect both the animals from prying fingers, and the public from snapping crocs (for example). The fact that the child was in any way able to get into the gorilla enclosure makes it clear that the zoos security was flawed, regardless of what the parents did or didn't do.

TL/DR.....the kid shouldn't have been able to get into the gorilla enclosure: the zoo fucked up.
100% this and it is easy to see the posters who know of children only from books and documentaries.
  #173  
Old 05-31-2016, 12:28 AM
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A woman walks into her room where her child lies sleeping,
and when she sees his eyes are closed,
she sits there, silently weeping,
and though she lives in Scranton, Pennsylvania
She never ever eats ... Bananas
Not one of thirty thousand pounds .... of bananas
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Originally Posted by bienville View Post
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all gorilla and I am precocious toddler.
My four year old will never get across
And eat the bananas under his apes, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make for lower insurance premiums."
What is it with gorilla threads and limericks?
  #174  
Old 05-31-2016, 12:32 AM
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Or we'd be back to zoos with animals in tiny, abusive cages. Or the human paths would be entirely enclosed by Plexiglas, walls and ceiling, and zoo visitors would complain that zoos are supposed to be about being outside.

I've looked at some of the video news coverage. The kid had to 1. climb over a railing, 2. climb through a wire fence, 3. push his way through several feet of very dense bushes and underbrush (I suck at eyeballing distance, but I'd say at least 6-8 feet), 4. and fall down a sheer 20ish-foot drop to get into the enclosure. That's "not enough" due diligence by the zoo? They should anticipate parents who leave their kids completely unattended for the solid half a minute or more it would take a small child to force their way through all those obstacles?

I'm sorry, but if you have a rambunctious 4-year-old, you don't turn your back on them for minutes at a time.
Not in a store, not in a playground, and not in a zoo. There's also something to be said for teaching a child that fences are not there to be circumvented in the first place; 4 years old is plenty old enough to understand that.

I still expect that the parents assumed that the zoo was basically a giant daycare.
(bolding mine)

I'm entirely on board with what you're saying - except for this part.

There's a huge difference between "minutes at a time" and "30 seconds or so"
It would take as little as a 15 second distraction for the kid to get out of eyeball sight, and then find his way through the rest of the obstacles -
And if you show me a parent who claims that they haven't taken their eyes off of a four year old for even 30 seconds while they're out somewhere and I'll show you a liar.
  #175  
Old 05-31-2016, 12:40 AM
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Slightly off-topic: Have any of you toured the Everglades? I was shocked to see how up close and personal you are with the gators.

In fact, I saw a mom strolling the path holding her toddler's hand; the tyke was pulling, trying to release from her grip. A gator was just yards away. I prayed to the ogs that he not break free.


mmm
Same with Yellowstone and those animals. Wild parks have wildlife. Sharks are at the beach. But it is a surprise to see how nonchalant some parents are at the national parks. It's almost as if they don't think those gators and crocodiles in the Everglades are real.
  #176  
Old 05-31-2016, 12:43 AM
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What is it with gorilla threads and limericks?
Are you sure you know what a limerick is?
  #177  
Old 05-31-2016, 12:59 AM
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On viewing the video again, it seems that there was very little distance from where the visitors were able to view the gorillas (and where the vid was taken from) to the edge of the moat...maybe 3' or so. That's very little distance for the kid to cover in very few seconds. Nor did I see a fence (that may well have not been visible) but given the angle of the footage taken, if there was a fence it was a very low one, easily scaled by a nimble child.

What has made me more curious is the moat itself. At the Melbourne Zoo in my hometown (and regarded internationally as being world-class) the moats are essentially 'no-man's land' and not accessible by the animals unless they too accidentally fall in! Meant as a buffer to further protect the animals AND to prevent idiots being able to get into the enclosures, they make sure that no contact is possible.....the only scenario where that could happen is if one of the primates fell into the moat at exactly the same time as some hero decided he wanted to take a selfie with them.

So it seems that the moat at the Cincinnati Zoo was not a protective moat at all, but is actually part of the gorillas home environment. It truly amazes me that in 38 yrs, this is the first time the barrier has been breached to be honest.

  #178  
Old 05-31-2016, 01:14 AM
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Reading this thread reminds me of the comment areas on news websites, where people generally demand the death penalty for anything more severe than jaywalking and any misbehavior by a person younger than 30 results in cries of "Arrest the parents too!"
Those parents' negligence (and the misbehavior of their offspring) were directly responsible for the needless destruction of a rare and valuable, irreplaceable, living creature. The kid won't be punished --oh, perish the thought of any kid having to face consequences for its actions!--so the parents should be. It wouldn't bring poor Harambe back, or truly compensate for his loss, but it'd be a sharp reprimand to the guilty parties in what's probably the only language they understand.
`
Quote:
I have absolutely no doubt that there will be no criminal charges filed against the child's mother, and the zoo will not seek pursue kind of civil action against her either.
I'm sure you're right, and it's a goddamned shame.
  #179  
Old 05-31-2016, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DLuxN8R-13 View Post
Those parents' negligence (and the misbehavior of their offspring) were directly responsible for the needless destruction of a rare and valuable, irreplaceable, living creature. The kid won't be punished --oh, perish the thought of any kid having to face consequences for its actions!--so the parents should be. It wouldn't bring poor Harambe back, or truly compensate for his loss, but it'd be a sharp reprimand to the guilty parties in what's probably the only language they understand.
`


I'm sure you're right, and it's a goddamned shame.
And what exactly would those charges be, or in other words, what crime has the mother committed? You seem so well versed in the law and stuff.....

  #180  
Old 05-31-2016, 01:30 AM
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100% this and it is easy to see the posters who know of children only from books and documentaries.
They know as much about kids as they know about gorillas, or even the case in question.

Or zoos.
  #181  
Old 05-31-2016, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Pylesos View Post
Unexpectedly mom and dad have different last names. The media keeps referring to him as her husband
I have been legally married for over 25 years. My spouse and I do not share the same last name. Anything further I'd have to say on that subject belongs in the Pit so I'll restrain myself here.
  #182  
Old 05-31-2016, 06:13 AM
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I'll join ya Broomstick...I'm 19 years in and likewise our names are still different.
  #183  
Old 05-31-2016, 06:19 AM
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We've got y'all beat, we're living in sin. Sweet, nasty, sweaty sin.
  #184  
Old 05-31-2016, 06:22 AM
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No, no secondary containment wire fence.
Quote:
Just before 4 p.m., a 4-year-old boy went over a stainless steel rail that's a little more than 3 feet high, with vertical bars every eight feet. He made his way through the bushes to the edge of the moat, a distance of approximately 4 feet. From there, he dropped 15 feet to the moat, into a foot and a half of water. The boy, who has not been identified yet by authorities, started splashing around.

Keepers tried to call the gorillas inside. Two females in the exhibit complied. Harambe did not.

Zoo visitors – and there were plenty of them, more than 7,000 on Saturday – reacted.

Harambe heard the commotion. Then, he spotted the child. The gorilla went down into the water and grabbed the boy by the ankle. Harambe carried the boy up a ladder to dry land
(Bolding mine)
Let us review:
He climbed over a 3 foot railing, ran about 4 feet, and fell 15 feet into a moat with a bit of water in it that is part of the gorillas' enclosure, attached on the gorilla side by a ladder.



Just for some context for those who state that 38 years of the same enclosure (apparently never major safety updates in that time despite major advances in technology and ) is proof of its adequacy ...

On the medical side of adverse outcome there are what are called "never events" - which as the name implies are events that should literally never occur if they do are sentinal occurences that your system likley has a fundamental flaw that needs repair. These are things like a sponge left inside a patient, wrong side surgery, etc. Yes they occur more than never.

When that happens the immediate responses must be:
Quote:
1.apologize to the patient
2. report the event
3. perform a root cause analysis
4. waive costs directly related to the event
About root cause analysis.

This is a never event.
  #185  
Old 05-31-2016, 07:08 AM
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That's seriously lacking compared to some of the zoos I have been to. I'd love to hear the chatter amongst zoo people around the world.
  #186  
Old 05-31-2016, 07:28 AM
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Once a child was in the gorilla's enclosure, being manhandled, the only thing to do was kill the gorilla. THAT decision doesn't trouble me.

But ANY zoo setup that allows a little kid to get into that enclosure is unforgivably flawed. Whoever designed the enclosure HAD to have known huge numbers of little kids would be attending the zoo every day, and shouldn't have allowed for any possibility of a kid getting in.

Last edited by astorian; 05-31-2016 at 07:28 AM.
  #187  
Old 05-31-2016, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post

When that happens the immediate responses must be:
About root cause analysis.

This is a never event.
Absolutely. I haven't seen anyone say that the zoo should not now fix the weakness(es) that this boy exploited to get in.

The fundamental philosophy of root cause analysis in a medical context, at least as it was taught by me, is that it is not done in order to assign "blame," and to punish transgressors. Rather it was developed as a system specifically to try to avoid blame and punishment, and focus on fixing the problems present within the system.

I'm all for using RCA to fix this. I'm less fond of the blame game, particularly by armchair quarterbacks who are suddenly experts in everything from tranquilizer darts to gorilla behavior.
  #188  
Old 05-31-2016, 07:55 AM
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They can put up glass or plexiglass barriers. Wouldn't surprise me if it costs millions. Maybe they just close it down and build an entirely new exhibit. That costs many millions of dollars. That's millions of dollars taken away from all the other zoo animals and programs, and I'm already highly dubious about their "conservation" efforts. I've also read of studies that show most people spend about 30 seconds to a minute in front of each exhibit and rarely read whatever educational info might be posted. The educational aspect is suspect. Most people are much better educated by watching animal documentaries on TV. Harambe was born and raised in captivity purely for amusement and any offspring of his will spend their lives in captivity for people's amusement and not a single one will ever be reintroduced to the wild.

Maybe mommy and daddy will donate the proceeds of their lawsuit to the zoo to pay for barriers. Hahahahaha.
  #189  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
They can put up glass or plexiglass barriers. Wouldn't surprise me if it costs millions. Maybe they just close it down and build an entirely new exhibit. That costs many millions of dollars. That's millions of dollars taken away from all the other zoo animals and programs, and I'm already highly dubious about their "conservation" efforts. I've also read of studies that show most people spend about 30 seconds to a minute in front of each exhibit and rarely read whatever educational info might be posted. The educational aspect is suspect. Most people are much better educated by watching animal documentaries on TV. Harambe was born and raised in captivity purely for amusement and any offspring of his will spend their lives in captivity for people's amusement and not a single one will ever be reintroduced to the wild.

Maybe mommy and daddy will donate the proceeds of their lawsuit to the zoo to pay for barriers. Hahahahaha.
They already had plans for a very expensive overhaul of the gorilla habitat.

Does anyone ever read anymore. There are so many psychics here.
  #190  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:15 AM
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...

Last edited by Peremensoe; 05-31-2016 at 08:16 AM.
  #191  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mighty_Girl View Post
They already had plans for a very expensive overhaul of the gorilla habitat.

Does anyone ever read anymore. There are so many psychics here.
And now they'll have less money. Does anyone think around here anymore? So many dreamers who think zoos print money with magic.
  #192  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spamforbrains
Where exactly do you think they are going to get another gorilla? There aren't many left. Personally, I think any gorilla's life is worth far more than any child's life simply based on their relative rarity. Kids are a dime a dozen. Gorillas, not.
Gorilla Lives Matter.
Quote:
Keepers tried to call the gorillas inside. Two females in the exhibit complied. Harambe did not.
The zoo needs to teach the gorillas the sign language for "Paws Up! Don't Shoot!'

Regards,
Shodan
  #193  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
On the medical side of adverse outcome there are what are called "never events" - which as the name implies are events that should literally never occur if they do are sentinal occurences that your system likley has a fundamental flaw that needs repair. These are things like a sponge left inside a patient, wrong side surgery, etc. Yes they occur more than never.
The problem with this analogy is that it ignores that surgery patients are without agency in the situation, utterly at the mercy of the doctors. Any bad decisions, any failure of care, has to belong exclusively to the doctors.

In the case of zoos, it is certainly reasonable to hold the zoo accountable for controlling the animals. Visiting people have to have some responsibility for their own actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Let us review:
He climbed over a 3 foot railing, ran about 4 feet, and fell 15 feet into a moat with a bit of water in it that is part of the gorillas' enclosure, attached on the gorilla side by a ladder.
Also, he pushed through the bushes between the railing and the drop before the moat. Probably those bushes were not as dense and thorny as they could have been. Otherwise, I see no flaws here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by astorian View Post
ANY zoo setup that allows a little kid to get into that enclosure is unforgivably flawed. Whoever designed the enclosure HAD to have known huge numbers of little kids would be attending the zoo every day, and shouldn't have allowed for any possibility of a kid getting in.
Huge numbers of kids walk on sidewalks and ride on subways to get to zoos every day. Shockingly, there are no barriers at all keeping them from plunging in front of the cars and trains.

Last edited by Peremensoe; 05-31-2016 at 08:38 AM.
  #194  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
Probably why there is also a sign that says children must be accompanied by an adult. Cincinnati zoo gets around a million visitors a year, so if kids were regularly falling into animal enclosures we'd hear about it. The safety precautions appear to be adequate. But, according to this, 15 people have died and 110 were injured in zoo incidents since 1990. I'd expect parents to be aware that zoos aren't 100% safe child-proofed day care centers. Yes, you can get into enclosures if you're determined. That's why the sign says don't.
I take it you did not see the Zoo safety guidelines I posted upthread that made the to me sensible point that warnings and barriers are not exclusive:

Quote:
Warning to be given of all edges where a person might fall, including into water; and, where necessary, such edges to be guarded by a barrier which would be capable of restraining children from falling.
Where was the "barrier which would be capable of restraining children from falling" in this case?
  #195  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:48 AM
excavating (for a mind) is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
...

Huge numbers of kids walk on sidewalks and ride on subways to get to zoos every day. Shockingly, there are no barriers at all keeping them from plunging in front of the cars and trains.
This is absolutely correct. However, it is unfortunately not all that uncommon for 4-year-old kids to be killed because they plunged in front of fast-moving cars and trains. These don't make the national news because of their unfortunate lack of rarity.
  #196  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
No, no secondary containment wire fence.(Bolding mine)
Let us review:
He climbed over a 3 foot railing, ran about 4 feet, and fell 15 feet into a moat with a bit of water in it that is part of the gorillas' enclosure, attached on the gorilla side by a ladder.



Just for some context for those who state that 38 years of the same enclosure (apparently never major safety updates in that time despite major advances in technology and ) is proof of its adequacy ...

On the medical side of adverse outcome there are what are called "never events" - which as the name implies are events that should literally never occur if they do are sentinal occurences that your system likley has a fundamental flaw that needs repair. These are things like a sponge left inside a patient, wrong side surgery, etc. Yes they occur more than never.

When that happens the immediate responses must be:
About root cause analysis.

This is a never event.
The legal concept you may be looking for here is "Res ipsa loquitur" (or, "the thing speaks for itself").

Quote:
In the common law of torts, res ipsa loquitur (Latin for "the thing speaks for itself") is a doctrine that infers negligence from the very nature of an accident or injury in the absence of direct evidence on how any defendant behaved. Although modern formulations differ by jurisdiction, common law originally stated that the accident must satisfy the necessary elements of negligence: duty, breach of duty, causation, and injury. In res ipsa loquitur, the elements of duty of care, breach and causation are inferred from an injury that does not ordinarily occur without negligence.
If a 4 year old child is able to defeat your safety precautions, those precautions are arguably, by definition, inadequate from a negligence POV, as the barrier ought to have been designed and built so that 4 year olds can't get through it.
  #197  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:55 AM
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The fault for this lies squarely with the mother. A 4 year old should not be able or allowed to run freely in any venue - even Walmart - but especially not in a crowded park where there is real danger, not just from 'falling into random enclosures' but in getting lost, taken (worst case) or a number of other things that can reasonably happen.

The zoo has taken reasonable precautions to prevent and make it clear to 'not' enter the area - as others have said, the child had to crawl under railings, thru bushes and then over a concrete barrier - this take intent, and while the child certainly intended to do it, was not truly responsible for his own stupidity or understanding of the results of his actions.

That lies squarely again with his guardian, his mother.

I understand that mother's get overwhelmed - and things happen - but that does not reduce her responsibility in this matter.

I applaud the zoo for making the only decision this mother left them with - the destruction of the Gorilla to save the child. While its not a tough call from a 'save the child' aspect, its a heart wrenching call from the caretakers side.
  #198  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:56 AM
Bill Door is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
(snip)Also, he pushed through the bushes between the railing and the drop before the moat. Probably those bushes were not as dense and thorny as they could have been. Otherwise, I see no flaws here.(snip)
OSHA requirements for a fall protection barrier guarding a drop of more than four feet are for the top rail to be 42" inches from ground height and having a mid-rail and a toe board. Three feet wouldn't pass that standard.
  #199  
Old 05-31-2016, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
Huge numbers of kids walk on sidewalks and ride on subways to get to zoos every day. Shockingly, there are no barriers at all keeping them from plunging in front of the cars and trains.
A road is not billed as a family recreational attraction venue; it lacks an entrance fee.

Shockingly, different standards apply to different situations.
  #200  
Old 05-31-2016, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
Where was the "barrier which would be capable of restraining children from falling" in this case?
The fence! No one is ever going over that edge because of an inadvertent false step. A much higher safety standard than the public sidewalks and train platforms.
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