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  #6051  
Old 12-10-2019, 05:26 PM
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I've always been under the impression that if I for instance failed to attend my trial or participate at all, that I would be convicted.

Lots of things are set up this way, especially for the poor and middle class when dealing with the justice system. Good outcomes can be encouraged. Lets get to it. You may be considered innocent, but only until you fail to cooperate with the law or the constitution. I consider trump not to be a criminal defendant but a bad employee and job seeker who needs to be removed.
  #6052  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:18 PM
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So, considering the clear motive to acquit despite the evidence (as I see it. If anyone has an alibi for Trump & co., please share it), at what point does the GOP become a bunch of confederates? Inviting foreign powers to tilt an election to keep an above-the-law executive in power? Hard to imagine a less patriotic position, but I am sure these guys will be along with one soon.
  #6053  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Try2B Comprehensive View Post
So, considering the clear motive to acquit despite the evidence (as I see it. If anyone has an alibi for Trump & co., please share it), at what point does the GOP become a bunch of confederates? Inviting foreign powers to tilt an election to keep an above-the-law executive in power? Hard to imagine a less patriotic position, but I am sure these guys will be along with one soon.
I think the Senate Republicans will just 'yadda yadda' the emphasized (by me) bit away. They have consistently avoided answering any and all questions on the topic of Presidents calling on foreign powers to influence elections. That's a forbidden subject. Because after all, the Unitary Executive head can do whatever he damn well pleases, and it will turn out to be for the good of the entire nation! Because mystical magical reasons!

Republicans in the Senate will occupy themselves by following the lead of those in the House: complaining about those Awful, Awful Democrats and How Rude They Are to Our Great President. End of story.
  #6054  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:46 PM
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nm

Last edited by Try2B Comprehensive; 12-10-2019 at 07:46 PM.
  #6055  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:01 PM
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The Republicans have no interest in actually participating.
They are not even pretending to be impartial, and they just want to get this over with, Constitution and Country be damned.
Why would they need to participate? They've already decided Trump is innocent, no matter what evidence MIGHT be presented.

Party over Country, and a pox on their houses.
  #6056  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:44 PM
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I think the Senate Republicans will just 'yadda yadda' the emphasized (by me) bit away. They have consistently avoided answering any and all questions on the topic of Presidents calling on foreign powers to influence elections. That's a forbidden subject. Because after all, the Unitary Executive head can do whatever he damn well pleases, and it will turn out to be for the good of the entire nation! Because mystical magical reasons!

Republicans in the Senate will occupy themselves by following the lead of those in the House: complaining about those Awful, Awful Democrats and How Rude They Are to Our Great President. End of story.
They can do that, but it will be increasingly hollow. They have sold themselves for years as the Moral Majority and the True Defenders of Mom, baseball and apple pie. God's party, yanno? And now they are cashing that ALL in to defend inviting foreign powers to rig an election.

I don't see them maintaining any moral authority going forward. And their chaining themselves to religion seems likely to backfire- after all that yammering about Jesus, they are actually one big gang of crooks. The moral? Never trust a Bible-beater, they aren't lying only about talking snakes, but literally everything. My values are superior as I am capable of intellectual honesty.

I can't see a way it isn't an utterly foolhardy move, unless the benefits of a little over a year more of Trump are just that astounding. Yeah, an criminal idiot as the head of the party. Good luck and good grief.
  #6057  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:13 PM
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I think the Senate Republicans will just 'yadda yadda' the emphasized (by me) bit away. They have consistently avoided answering any and all questions on the topic of Presidents calling on foreign powers to influence elections. That's a forbidden subject. Because after all, the Unitary Executive head can do whatever he damn well pleases, and it will turn out to be for the good of the entire nation! Because mystical magical reasons!

Republicans in the Senate will occupy themselves by following the lead of those in the House: complaining about those Awful, Awful Democrats and How Rude They Are to Our Great President. End of story.
What everyone needs to know is that the Republicans are done with democracy -- finished.

The impeachment isn't the beginning of the end; it's the end of the beginning of their attempt to destroy the power of ordinary people to have influence on their own government. After impeachment, a new phase begins.

As I've said, it gets worse - much worse - before it gets better.

You will see.
  #6058  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:22 PM
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What everyone needs to know is that the Republicans are done with democracy -- finished.

The impeachment isn't the beginning of the end; it's the end of the beginning of their attempt to destroy the power of ordinary people to have influence on their own government. After impeachment, a new phase begins.

As I've said, it gets worse - much worse - before it gets better.

You will see.
I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.

There are now two kinds of people in this country, those who believe in the US as a pluralistic democratic nation, and those who don't. For the latter, the pluralism is what constitutes, at base, the reason for their rejection of democracy.
  #6059  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:47 PM
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I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.

There are now two kinds of people in this country, those who believe in the US as a pluralistic democratic nation, and those who don't. For the latter, the pluralism is what constitutes, at base, the reason for their rejection of democracy.
Look at what Bill Barr is doing and saying as the head of the DoJ. He's made absolutely no bones about the fact that he is going to operate as Trump's attack dog because he believes in the power of the executive branch to advance conservative causes. Look at what Trump is saying about Chris Wray. Together, they're trying to plant the seed, trying to lay down the groundwork, trying to establish consent for whatever comes next.

You need to have a burning hatred of conservatives and what they're trying to do to you. If you don't, then you're just letting them prison rape you, and you deserve what you get, which is a stolen country. Rage is good.
  #6060  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:59 PM
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You never need burning hatred.
  #6061  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:14 PM
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You never need burning hatred.
I think the soldiers who made this country what it is, the ones who crushed immoral insurrection of the South, the ones who crushed the Axis in Germany, would disagree.

Sometimes, rage is good.
  #6062  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:31 PM
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Yah well sometimes rage is all one has. I think that describes the opposition right now, and it is leading them to support a criminal regime. They appear to be enraged at ghosts though- not only Benghazi but Hillary and the D's are responsible for the pizza sex ring and a whole host of other crimes which, to them, justify Any response- crimes for which nothing is ever proven and charges are never brought.

Now, if their guy is formally impeached on what looks like inarguable grounds, why, change the subject! D's are terrible! Put Nadler on the stand, because.. never mind why!!

And it is always "never mind why." Notice that? We see why "blind" and "rage" so often go together. Smart is better, and it just so happens we have the smart people who can actually prove a point. Let's leverage that.
  #6063  
Old 12-11-2019, 06:39 AM
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Yah well sometimes rage is all one has. I think that describes the opposition right now, and it is leading them to support a criminal regime. They appear to be enraged at ghosts though- not only Benghazi but Hillary and the D's are responsible for the pizza sex ring and a whole host of other crimes which, to them, justify Any response- crimes for which nothing is ever proven and charges are never brought.

Now, if their guy is formally impeached on what looks like inarguable grounds, why, change the subject! D's are terrible! Put Nadler on the stand, because.. never mind why!!

And it is always "never mind why." Notice that? We see why "blind" and "rage" so often go together. Smart is better, and it just so happens we have the smart people who can actually prove a point. Let's leverage that.
It's not rage that conservatives have; they have entitlement and a desire to establish supremacy using whatever means they have at their disposal. There will still probably be a form of 'democracy' if they manage to succeed in their political heist, but it won't look anything like the democracy we now have. It will be one that rubber stamps and legitimizes their oligarchy and kleptocracy, and so will their justice system.
  #6064  
Old 12-11-2019, 08:47 AM
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Ruh Roh:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...estimony%3famp

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A top aide to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is refuting U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland's testimony in the impeachment inquiry against President Trump.

Sondland last month testified before a House committee that he told Zelensky's aide that the U.S. would not resume foreign aid until the country announced two investigations into Trump political rivals; however, the aide, Andriy Yermak, told Time in an interview published Tuesday that the conversation never happened.
And if Trump is an agent of Russia "the enemy of Ukraine", why would a top aide to the Ukranian President lie to help Trump?
  #6065  
Old 12-11-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quick! Send Rudy to get to the bottom of that, and have him report back to the AG!
  #6066  
Old 12-11-2019, 08:59 AM
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Ruh Roh:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...estimony%3famp



And if Trump is an agent of Russia "the enemy of Ukraine", why would a top aide to the Ukranian President lie to help Trump?

Because he knows the Senate will not vote to impeach?
  #6067  
Old 12-11-2019, 09:01 AM
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New conspiracy theory from Rudy -- Adam Schiff has mutual fund investments with Franklin Templeton, and some of their funds have invested in Ukrainian companies. The horror!

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckra...op-bloodstream

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-11-2019 at 09:01 AM.
  #6068  
Old 12-11-2019, 09:06 AM
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Quick! Send Rudy to get to the bottom of that, and have him report back to the AG!
Well from the same article no US officials are trying:
Quote:
Yermak told Time that no U.S. officials, including congressional committees overseeing the impeachment inquiry, have contacted him to seek testimony.
  #6069  
Old 12-11-2019, 09:13 AM
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Impeachment was sealed the moment the Trump White House released the "transcript" in which Trump asks Ukraine to investigate Biden and tying that request to Congressionally approved military aid. That single piece of evidence was enough, and it remains enough -- the WH's (and Trump's) own words.
  #6070  
Old 12-11-2019, 09:25 AM
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It's not rage that conservatives have; they have entitlement and a desire to establish supremacy using whatever means they have at their disposal. There will still probably be a form of 'democracy' if they manage to succeed in their political heist, but it won't look anything like the democracy we now have. It will be one that rubber stamps and legitimizes their oligarchy and kleptocracy, and so will their justice system.
Well, my view stems from recent conversations with a friend of mine with a lot of red state relatives- not very scientific, but his theory is that rural folks have been getting shit on for a long long time and are boiling over with resentment. People call 'em sister-fuckers and yokels and all of that kind of thing, and they're provoked. Reading Mencken's Monkey Trial essays for me anyway lends weight to be his theory- the author is right about evolution, sure, but he excoriates the population of Tennessee so ruthlessly that by the end, I had some sympathy for the Bible-beaters. One Can go too far.

I dunno. I think they should really be mad at the arch-capitalists, they're the ones sending the jobs overseas, wrecking unions and all that, and I don't think they or a lot of things for that matter fit neatly into one of two "sides". Whatever, that is what propaganda is for. I figure a clear-eyed approach can lead us to solutions to common problems and no group or region really has to be left out... but that runs into the current anti-intellectualism and we devolve into this dumb culture war between sides. I think that's counter productive and in the way, as everyone is just people, they won't always make sense.

Anyway, people have a lot of problems and I just don't think hating them will lead to progress.
  #6071  
Old 12-11-2019, 09:25 AM
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Well from the same article no US officials are trying:
Perhaps you noticed that the only testimpny given was by Americans. Fuck yeah.
  #6072  
Old 12-11-2019, 09:57 AM
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Why would they need to participate? They've already decided Trump is innocent, no matter what evidence MIGHT be presented.

Party over Country, and a pox on their houses.
Republicans used to be "Party over Country". That was what I like to refer to as "the good old days".

Today, Republicans are "Russia over Party over Country". They have (for some reason or other) sold themselves out entirely to a foreign power.
  #6073  
Old 12-11-2019, 10:08 AM
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Quick! Send Rudy to get to the bottom of that, and have him report back to the AG!
Can a passport be cancelled in abstentia and, thus, the bearer not be allowed back in the country?

I'm thinking the Phillip Nolan gambit, here.
  #6074  
Old 12-11-2019, 10:31 AM
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Can a passport be cancelled in abstentia and, thus, the bearer not be allowed back in the country?

I'm thinking the Phillip Nolan gambit, here.
It happened to this Krakhozhian.
  #6075  
Old 12-11-2019, 11:14 AM
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People call 'em sister-fuckers and yokels and all of that kind of thing, and they're provoked. Reading Mencken's Monkey Trial essays for me anyway lends weight to be his theory- the author is right about evolution, sure, but he excoriates the population of Tennessee so ruthlessly that by the end, I had some sympathy for the Bible-beaters. One Can go too far.
And urbanites are portrayed in some circles as uniformly anti-patriotic and not "Real Americans." Doesn't matter how many city-dwellers have joined the military in all the wars the U.S. has fought, city dwellers are all anti-American, anti-military, etc.

Also, as I've said before, politicians don't campaign and get elected in cities on a platform of separating from the countryside or not spending tax dollars on rural programs, but some politicians do campaign and get elected in the countryside on a platform of separating from the cities and not spending tax dollars on urban programs. Article. Another article.
  #6076  
Old 12-11-2019, 12:39 PM
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I'd say make urban votes worth more than rural. We have had the just opposite for centuries, so there can't be a moral objection to it. I think the experiment ended and failed miserably, when dt got elected. Fin de seicle.

You can make the value of a vote based on the connections and proximity to fellow citizens, an algorithm basically about how central and proximate you are to society. The more populated your abode the more central you are. And I would add: the more your vote is worth to society. It's clear that power in the hands of isolated angry people is not well placed.

Are there objections? They could start to pay attention to the rest of the world, and maybe change their voting status by making good business decisions. Whose fault is it that they are miserable?
  #6077  
Old 12-11-2019, 12:44 PM
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Can a passport be cancelled in abstentia and, thus, the bearer not be allowed back in the country?
Your passport is property of the State Department and can be revoked at any time. But under current US law, an American citizen or permanent resident can not lawfully be denied entry to the United States, whether or not they have a passport in hand.

OTOH, the entrant bears the burden of proof regarding their citizenship. That can be potentially difficult depending on one's circumstances.
  #6078  
Old 12-11-2019, 07:48 PM
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Ruh Roh:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...estimony%3famp



And if Trump is an agent of Russia "the enemy of Ukraine", why would a top aide to the Ukranian President lie to help Trump?
Because it has been shown time and time again, that kissing Trump's ass is guaranteed to reap benefits.
  #6079  
Old 12-11-2019, 08:53 PM
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OTOH, the entrant bears the burden of proof regarding their citizenship. That can be potentially difficult depending on one's circumstances.
Or skin color.
  #6080  
Old 12-11-2019, 09:36 PM
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Because it has been shown time and time again, that kissing Trump's ass is guaranteed to reap benefits.
In fact, if you go back to the original interview where Yermak denies the conversation, he again emphasizes the importance of a White House invitation, something I believe is still being withheld.

https://time.com/5746417/ukraine-and...ent-interview/

Quote:
One of the top priorities for the Ukrainian government’s foreign policy is to arrange a state visit to the U.S. and a meeting between Trump and Zelensky in the Oval Office. On the morning of our interview, Yermak had met in Kyiv with two senior U.S. diplomats who testified before the inquiry last month, George Kent and Philip Reeker, in part to discuss the Ukrainian hope of visiting the White House soon. “My colleagues supported me,” Yermak said, referring to Kent and Reeker. He added that they did not discuss any specific dates for the visit. (The U.S. embassy declined to make Reeker and Kent available for comment during their visit to Kyiv last week.)

“Once the President has meetings in the White House, in Congress and in business circles, it will create a final understanding that this is a new team, a new set of leaders in Ukraine, a set of leaders who have come to change the country, to fight corruption, who in the course of three months in parliament, and six months of our tenure, have achieved a whole lot,” Yermak says.
I note that he also acknowledges that Ukraine was painfully aware that aid was being withheld, even as he denies that it was tied to a request for an investigation.
Quote:
When TIME asked him whether he had ever felt there was a connection between the U.S. military aid and the requests for investigations, Yermak was adamant: “We never had that feeling,” he says. “We had a clear understanding that the aid has been frozen. We honestly said, ‘Okay, that’s bad, what’s going on here.’ We were told that they would figure it out. And after a certain amount of time the aid was unfrozen. We did not have the feeling that this aid was connected to any one specific issue.”
(My emphasis)

In my opinion, the Ukrainians are desperately trying to walk the fine line of not pissing anybody off by not getting into the middle of anything so that they can get the assistance necessary to ensure their survival as an independent nation. Do you really accept the assurance of a hostage that they are being treated fine?

Quote:
“Look, we are principled in our position. We did not violate anything. We did not do anything that would amount to crossing a line. At all times we kept our word. We did what we said we would do. So I think it wouldn’t be right to give assessments of what line someone may have approached. We never entered into a conspiracy with anyone. We never participated in any conversations under the carpet. It was all public and transparent.”
  #6081  
Old 12-11-2019, 11:09 PM
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Well, my view stems from recent conversations with a friend of mine with a lot of red state relatives- not very scientific, but his theory is that rural folks have been getting shit on for a long long time and are boiling over with resentment. People call 'em sister-fuckers and yokels and all of that kind of thing, and they're provoked. Reading Mencken's Monkey Trial essays for me anyway lends weight to be his theory- the author is right about evolution, sure, but he excoriates the population of Tennessee so ruthlessly that by the end, I had some sympathy for the Bible-beaters. One Can go too far.

I dunno. I think they should really be mad at the arch-capitalists, they're the ones sending the jobs overseas, wrecking unions and all that, and I don't think they or a lot of things for that matter fit neatly into one of two "sides". Whatever, that is what propaganda is for. I figure a clear-eyed approach can lead us to solutions to common problems and no group or region really has to be left out... but that runs into the current anti-intellectualism and we devolve into this dumb culture war between sides. I think that's counter productive and in the way, as everyone is just people, they won't always make sense.

Anyway, people have a lot of problems and I just don't think hating them will lead to progress.
Hey, I lived in one of the reddest and the most pro-Trump state per capita in the country for a very long time, and I have to disagree somewhat with your friend's take on things. It's NOT a one-way street. People there laughed and scoffed at outsiders who wanted to know if kids rode horses to school or assumed everyone went to a one-room schoolhouse and and had to dodge tumbleweeds to cross Main Street. Silly city folk (or easterners or their favorite target, Californians)! The rage your friend talks about has been fed to them, and not by Mencken who, for God's sake, has been dead over 60 years and whom very few of them have ever heard of.

I agree that hatred won't result in progress, but for that to happen, you have to stop the flow of propaganda reenforcing the ol' US vs. Them mindset. That would mean no Fox News or MSNBC. It would mean recognizing how certain media outlets manipulate their audiences. Most of all, it would mean convincing people that they're going to have to undergo the painful process of recognizing that what they want to believe and what is true are two different things. Good luck with that.
  #6082  
Old 12-12-2019, 08:43 AM
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I thought of using Mehran Karimi Nasseri but figured no one would remember who he was anymore and he is more sympathetic than Nolan, albeit a real-life person.
  #6083  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:25 AM
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And urbanites are portrayed in some circles as uniformly anti-patriotic and not "Real Americans." Doesn't matter how many city-dwellers have joined the military in all the wars the U.S. has fought, city dwellers are all anti-American, anti-military, etc.

Also, as I've said before, politicians don't campaign and get elected in cities on a platform of separating from the countryside or not spending tax dollars on rural programs, but some politicians do campaign and get elected in the countryside on a platform of separating from the cities and not spending tax dollars on urban programs. Article. Another article.
I was not aware of those two movements, thanks for that. Let's add the movement for Texas to secede from the US:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...rticle/600739/

I was planning to bring up an objection along these lines next time I see this person- maybe I will even forward those articles. I was thinking more along the lines of nelliebly's post though- Every region get attacked by somebody in an insulting way, CA and NY especially. Heck, I have heard that cowboys in some regions will hang you just for serving them picante sauce made in New York City!

So why is it ok to attack those places but not red states? Why do their fee fees take precedence and others' don't matter? I have two theories. One, it is considered 'punching down' for 'elites' to look down from their ivory towers and criticize less fortunate places. But we aren't supposed to acknowledge that it even Is punching down.

Or two, it is a racist thing even though they all deny that. Alabama may have a lot of problems but it is White Culture and NY and CA just have to zip it, who cares what regions full of brown people think. Or, Of Course black people in Chicago are miserable, they're animals and what do you expect? At least the good white people in the rest of Illinois are capable of progress.

They contradict, but conservatives don't really make sense. Heck, nationally they basically want the US to disengage from the whole rest of the world. The country is supposed to be some kind of Honky Jerusalem, and globalism is bad because... well, I have trouble interpreting it, it is nonsense to me but I think people do believe this stuff.

These aren't my ideas but I grew up in Red State, too. Globalism is bad because of tainting from lesser races in shithole countries? And Jews too, somehow. I don't know, but they think Trump is fighting this fight. The Civil War was a good idea to some people, so what is a little abuse of power when it is Us v Them?

Last edited by Try2B Comprehensive; 12-12-2019 at 09:25 AM.
  #6084  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:38 AM
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Dem to vote no on Trump impeachment articles
Quote:
WASHINGTON— Democratic Rep. Jeff Van Drew said Wednesday that he will vote against articles of impeachment that outline the case for President Trump's removal fromoffice, becoming the first Democrat to publicly say he will not vote with his colleagues.
...

Van Drew added that some of his Democratic colleagues have reached out to him about impeachment and guessed as many as three or four in total could join him in voting against impeachment articles.

"There are numbers of my colleagues who are thinking about it, what they want to do, and are not sure," he said.Van Drew was one of two House Democrats who voted against impeachment procedures in October, with 232 voting in favor, including Independent Justin Amash. The other was Rep. Collin Peterson, a Democrat who represents a district in Minnesota that went to Trump by 30 points in the 2016 election.

Peterson has not come to a firm conclusion yet over how he will vote on articles, telling the Washington Examiner that he was still looking over everything but was "leaning no."
....
Van Drew says he feels that the president will be strengthened when the impeachment process fails to remove him from office, and that that's what elections are for.

So....the president is NOT strengthened when Dems jump off the impeachment bandwagon? <tilt> Why not go full-bore and make a point on the largely symbolic impeachment vote, AND remove him from office with the election? Oh, I get it:
Quote:
...Van Drew, a Democrat who represents a district in New Jersey that favored Trump by five points in 2016....
Straddling the bob-wahr* fence like that can be injurious to the private parts, Rep. Van Drew.




* As we say in Texas.
  #6085  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:49 AM
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Every time I think they've jumped the shark, they find an even higher one.

Watching the live debate, a new defence being used over and over is "How come you're only impeaching for these *two* articles? Doesn't that imply you didn't have evidence for all the other stuff that the president has been accused of?"

(To which my two answers would be: "No, as you know, if we had many articles of impeachment the GOP would have greater scope to confuse the public and claim the whole thing is a scattershot attempt to find any mud" and "So what? How is that an argument against these two articles?")
  #6086  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:53 AM
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What a pathetic show the GOP is putting up today. One of the MAGAbots on the panel said the Democrats passed the NAFTA revision to be able to say they did something but doing nothing about infrastructure. Somehow he failed to mention the scores of bills sitting on McConnell's desk because he sees his job as ratifying right wing judges and nothing else.
  #6087  
Old 12-12-2019, 12:33 PM
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Lindsey Graham wants to "deep-six" Trump’s impeachment trial
Quote:
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) told Axios: "I'm not in the camp of calling a bunch of witnesses [in President Trump's impeachment trial]. ... I think as an American, the best thing we do is deep-six this thing."

The big picture: Many Senate Republicans told Axios that they trust Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's judgment on whether to accelerate the vote to acquit the president.
  • "Senate Republicans are coalescing around a strategy of holding a short impeachment trial early next year that would include no witnesses," The Washington Post reports.
  • Why it matters: That "could clash with President Trump’s desire to stage a public defense of his actions toward Ukraine that would include testimony the White House believes would damage its political rivals."
...
Bold & formatting in original

Oh pleasepleaseplease let this be one of the times when Donnie stamps his foot and says, "No, you're not the boss of me!" to Mitch. Let him stage a public defense and try his best to damage his political rivals. Maybe Mitch will ditch the proceedings and Donnie can go on a whistle-stop tour of the country shouting his defense from every "Middlesex [as it were] village and farm." He will be following in the horse steps of patriot Paul Revere, warning the country of impending doom.
  #6088  
Old 12-12-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Lindsey Graham wants to "deep-six" Trump’s impeachment trial
Bold & formatting in original

Oh pleasepleaseplease let this be one of the times when Donnie stamps his foot and says, "No, you're not the boss of me!" to Mitch. Let him stage a public defense and try his best to damage his political rivals. Maybe Mitch will ditch the proceedings and Donnie can go on a whistle-stop tour of the country shouting his defense from every "Middlesex [as it were] village and farm." He will be following in the horse steps of patriot Paul Revere, warning the country of impending doom.
Trump can't testify before Congress, or let any of his involved cabinet testify before Congress, because lying to Congress is an actual crime and also impeachable. They can't continue their "defense" without lying.

The witnesses he would want to call are people who will share slanted innuendo against the Bidens or whackadoodles who will parrot the "Ukraine meddled in our elections!!!" line that the Republicans are attempting to fly. Those are the witnesses they're complaining they can't call. If they wanted to call someone from the OMB, or the DOJ, or the White House, the Dems would certainly allow it, because that is pertinent to the matter at hand. Of course, the President made those witnesses categorically off-limits.

I'd welcome fact witnesses from the involved departments. I'd love Trump to testify, or Pence, or Mulvaney, or Bolton, or anyone who was actually involved. I'm afraid, however, that any witnesses they'd want to allow to come in for a Senate trial would be more smoke and mirrors conspiracy theorists.

Any chance that Roberts, as a Supreme Court Justice and judge at the impeachment trial in the Senate, could compel those holdouts to testify if called?
  #6089  
Old 12-12-2019, 01:01 PM
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Any chance that Roberts, as a Supreme Court Justice and judge at the impeachment trial in the Senate, could compel those holdouts to testify if called?
I keep trotting this out:

"Chief Justice John Roberts could rule on the scope of executive privilege with respect to these high-ranking administration officials as well as any diplomats, national security staff or budget office staff barred up until now by the White House from providing evidence. Under the Senate rules, the chief justice’s decision would be final, subject only to a vote of the full Senate."
https://www.chicagotribune.com/opini...7ci-story.html

If this is accurate, best I can figure, Roberts can compel to appear any witnesses the Dems call, as long as a majority of the Senate approves. So 4 GOP senators would have to vote yes. If they don't, they can't go on complaining that they didn't "get to share their side." And the Dems can make sure the voting public knows it was Republicans who voted to keep Trump from testifying.

Then the 2020 campaign them can be What are they hiding?
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  #6090  
Old 12-12-2019, 01:16 PM
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I haven't been listening to much of the last few weeks, but today I heard:
  • Hunter Biden is a drug addict who interacted with homeless people, and while I don't have anything against those who suffer from addiction (which Trump is eliminating AS WE SPEAK), can we ever really trust a guy who has done drugs? And even went to HOMELESS PEOPLE to get those drugs!? And, if druggies, I mean addicts, who Trump loves and is helping RIGHT NOW, are just washed-up no-goodnicks who get everything handed to them on a silver platter, then obviously Trump has done nothing wrong.
  • Democrats are just posturing, performing and pandering to the American people because they have nothing real to say, and they're using the facade of patriotism to dupe the public. Also, my limbless war veteran friend who is totally an American Hero and gave up his limbs for OUR FREEDOM just texted me just now this minute to tell me not to let the Dems get away with it!
  #6091  
Old 12-12-2019, 01:19 PM
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My father was watching the impeachment trial today a few rooms away so I couldn't hear who was speaking or what was being said, but I could hear the general rhythm and volume dynamics of the various speeches. Without fail, I could tell when a Republican was speaking because the rhythm, etc. had a vague quality of disingenuous outrage. MPSIMS?
  #6092  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:03 PM
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Given the intellectual capacity of some of these guys, he could be hearing Congressman Brick Tamland saying, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE ARE YELLING ABOUT! LOUD NOISES!!"
  #6093  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Akaj View Post
If this is accurate, best I can figure, Roberts can compel to appear any witnesses the Dems call, as long as a majority of the Senate approves. So 4 GOP senators would have to vote yes. If they don't, they can't go on complaining that they didn't "get to share their side." And the Dems can make sure the voting public knows it was Republicans who voted to keep Trump from testifying.

Then the 2020 campaign them can be What are they hiding?
This is what I was thinking. It doesn't look like the GOP has any good options right now. Ironically, their best option is to impeach and hope Pence can give them the 2020 election.

But that's not going to happen of course.
  #6094  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:47 PM
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Yeah - If the Republicans win, their prize is Trump.

Now that's weird!

I still believe their best strategy is to dump Trump by one vote in the Senate, blame the Dems, let Pence Pardon Trump for whatever and then dredge up a real candidate to run in 2020.

Last edited by Crane; 12-12-2019 at 02:48 PM.
  #6095  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:55 PM
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Yeah - If the Republicans win, their prize is Trump.

Now that's weird!

I still believe their best strategy is to dump Trump by one vote in the Senate, blame the Dems, let Pence Pardon Trump for whatever and then dredge up a real candidate to run in 2020.
With all this nonsense about how Democrats are "trying to undo the 2016 election" via impeachment, I wonder how many Republican voters think that, if Trump is removed from office, Hillary Clinton becomes president.
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  #6096  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
Why would they need to participate? They've already decided Trump is innocent, no matter what evidence MIGHT be presented.
And the Dems have decided hes guilty no matter what so let's just have an up/down vote in the House and then an up/down vote in the Senate and move on.
  #6097  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:02 PM
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I really think this impeachment is a giant waste of time and effort and political capital and it is a stupid, stupid, STUPID gamble by the Democrats - if they fail, and I believe they will, it's going to make the Democrats collectively look weak, Trump will of course act and campaign as if he has been vindicated, the Republican voters will be energized, and he will be re-elected.

What the Dems don't realize is that these proceedings are giving a platform for Republicans to grandstand. Every time one of them speaks, they're campaigning for Trump.
  #6098  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:04 PM
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And the Dems have decided hes guilty no matter what so let's just have an up/down vote in the House and then an up/down vote in the Senate and move on.
No, the facts show that he is guilty. The call summary the White House itself released shows that he is guilty.

If you are correct, then our government cannot function anymore. If there is no objective right or wrong in regards to soliciting foreign assistance in our elections, then we do not have free elections anymore. We either decide that we are a democracy still or we are not one any longer. This is what is at stake here. If it is ok for the President to sell our our national security interests for his or her own personal electoral gain, then this will forever be the standard and we will no longer be able to determine our own fate as a country.
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  #6099  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:05 PM
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I really think this impeachment is a giant waste of time and effort and political capital and it is a stupid, stupid, STUPID gamble by the Democrats - if they fail, and I believe they will, it's going to make the Democrats collectively look weak, Trump will of course act and campaign as if he has been vindicated, the Republican voters will be energized, and he will be re-elected.

What the Dems don't realize is that these proceedings are giving a platform for Republicans to grandstand. Every time one of them speaks, they're campaigning for Trump.
Somebody has to actually defend the constitution and our national sovereignty at some point. If the Democrats don't do it now, then what exactly are we? Because it won't be a free country. Not if our elections no longer matter, the way it is in Russia.
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  #6100  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:56 PM
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I figured the Hunter Biden using coke story would be used if Joe Biden was the nominee but I see it was already used today.
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