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  #6651  
Old 01-27-2016, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
Just in case there is any doubt about the purpose of guns, here is a review of new ammunition for shotguns:

To be fair, that passage addresses the purpose not of the guns but of this specific round -- the review says, other rounds are great for big game but are too much for "hominids" (OK yes, sure, an angry chimpanzee you'd want to kill fast , right...)
  #6652  
Old 01-27-2016, 12:33 PM
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Just in case there is any doubt about the purpose of guns, here is a review of new ammunition for shotguns:
Limited-penetration ammo has been around for some time. Hollow point ammo is used by LE partly for reduced risk of over penetration and ricochet. Do you object to the use of ammo that reduces risk to bystanders?
  #6653  
Old 01-27-2016, 05:51 PM
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Limited-penetration ammo has been around for some time. Hollow point ammo is used by LE partly for reduced risk of over penetration and ricochet. Do you object to the use of ammo that reduces risk to bystanders?
Of course not. I just thought it was refreshing to see a moment of rare candor from gun enthusiasts about what they use their weapons for.
  #6654  
Old 01-28-2016, 03:40 AM
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Of course not. I just thought it was refreshing to see a moment of rare candor from gun enthusiasts about what they use their weapons for.
I don't see what's stupid about that either. I'd rather they were honest and sensible about this sort of thing - if you have the weapon for self-defense, you should have appropriate ammo. No use using elephant shot to kill a burglar, especially when you may end up also killing people in the next house at the same time.
  #6655  
Old 01-28-2016, 06:32 AM
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This Washington Post Wonkblog entry may well have already been posted (it's from October) but it confirms a suspicion: CCW permit holders are much more likely to commit a mass shooting than stop one, despite the fond hopes of wishful thinkers.
  #6656  
Old 01-28-2016, 08:08 AM
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This Washington Post Wonkblog entry may well have already been posted (it's from October) but it confirms a suspicion: CCW permit holders are much more likely to commit a mass shooting than stop one, despite the fond hopes of wishful thinkers.
This speaks more to the rarity of having a mass shooting and an armed bystander coincide than anything else.
  #6657  
Old 01-28-2016, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
12ga slugs have been rightly known as good stoppers on dangerous game, but tend to over-penetrate in hominids.
I've changed the color of an interesting word choice. AFAIK humans are the only extant hominids, but the writer here felt a need to dehumanize one type of "dangerous game."
  #6658  
Old 01-30-2016, 04:26 PM
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This Washington Post Wonkblog entry may well have already been posted (it's from October) but it confirms a suspicion: CCW permit holders are much more likely to commit a mass shooting than stop one, despite the fond hopes of wishful thinkers.
Or even accidental ones. I heard that this guy brought his gun to the theater because he was paranoid that there might be a shooting. Well, yeah, there was. The woman was hit in the shoulder and did not realize she had been shot until later.

Of course, the accidental shooter was drunk. Perhaps that is acceptable, but it kind of irks me. The "F" in ATF needs to go to a different agency so that booze and guns are not seen as belonging together.
  #6659  
Old 01-30-2016, 05:56 PM
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Of course, the accidental shooter was drunk. Perhaps that is acceptable, but it kind of irks me.
IANAL, but I've never heard of intoxication being a valid legal defense.
  #6660  
Old 01-31-2016, 05:11 PM
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I've changed the color of an interesting word choice. AFAIK humans are the only extant hominids, but the writer here felt a need to dehumanize one type of "dangerous game."
It's not very different from calling them "bad guys", is it? Either term is a way of giving oneself permission to kill them. They don't actually deserve rights like real humans or "good guys" do, right?
  #6661  
Old 01-31-2016, 07:52 PM
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Or even accidental ones. I heard that this guy brought his gun to the theater because he was paranoid that there might be a shooting. Well, yeah, there was. The woman was hit in the shoulder and did not realize she had been shot until later.

Of course, the accidental shooter was drunk. Perhaps that is acceptable, but it kind of irks me. The "F" in ATF needs to go to a different agency so that booze and guns are not seen as belonging together.
Hey. If the theater had been attacked by terrorists from ISIS or the Bundy Gang, this guy would have taken them out, saving 14 innocent lives. 14-1 is 13 last I checked. This fine American saved 13 lives; this post really belongs in the Postive Gun News thread.

In fact, call it 14 lives since the female perp didn't even die. And yes, let's call her a "perp" who may have needed shooting. Couldn't she have been reaching in her purse for a nail file or something?

It's patriots like this that keep America safe from the Jihadists; and it's disgusting to hear you gun-grabbing libtards bad-mouth these heroes. Sure, maybe he'd had a couple of beers, but they were well-deserved -- protecting the Nation from Jihad is stressful.
  #6662  
Old 02-01-2016, 03:11 AM
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Sure, maybe he'd had a couple of beers, but they were well-deserved -- protecting the Nation from Jihad is stressful.
The story's bizarre. He was afraid of getting shot, he said. So afraid that he chased Xanax with booze and brought a loaded firearm (with the safety off because those things are foolproof) stuffed down his pants into a movie theater that requests that patrons don't bring their guns. How will we ever finally prove that gun free zones are slaughterhouses if people keep bringing guns?

Of course, this guy is an outlier, most CCW permit holders are responsible types like the hometown guys in my Facebook feed that I totally don't remember abusing drugs and alcohol. They spend whole hours at the shooting range so they're real ready to prevent a mass shooting, protect their homes, and prevent tyrants from doing tyranty type stuff, like passing a law against people on terrorist watch lists from buying all the guns they can afford.
  #6663  
Old 02-01-2016, 08:14 AM
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they're real ready to prevent <...> tyrants from doing tyranty type stuff, like passing a law against people on terrorist watch lists from buying all the guns they can afford.
Only after lawyers and money have failed.
  #6664  
Old 02-01-2016, 09:52 AM
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Of course not. I just thought it was refreshing to see a moment of rare candor from gun enthusiasts about what they use their weapons for.
Ermmm. Concerns about over-penetration are most frequently raised when you are concerned about what to use for home defense (so you don't end up killing someone in the next room). Its one of the reasons why people use buck or bird shot for home defense. Are you saying that it is refreshing to hear gun owners be honest about using guns to defend themselves from other humans?

I didn't realize that gun enthusiasts were downplaying the use of weapons for self defense. Weren't shotguns endorsed by Joe Biden for home defense?
  #6665  
Old 02-01-2016, 10:15 AM
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This Washington Post Wonkblog entry may well have already been posted (it's from October) but it confirms a suspicion: CCW permit holders are much more likely to commit a mass shooting than stop one, despite the fond hopes of wishful thinkers.
At this point you are dissecting data to find the little sliver that best supports your argument. Why do you need to dissect more granularly when you know that CCW holders are more law abiding than the general population (in Texas) more law abiding than the police? How does saying that there are ~3 mass shootings by CCW permit holders every year somehow negate the fact that CCW permit holders are more law abiding? Its not because getting the license makes you more law abiding, the fact of the matter is that the process associated with getting a CCW creates a pretty significant self selection bias.
  #6666  
Old 02-01-2016, 10:40 AM
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{...} Its one of the reasons why people use buck {...} shot for home defense. {...}
Methinks (IIRC) these folks need to visit The Box O’ Truth.

CMC fnord!
  #6667  
Old 02-01-2016, 11:31 AM
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Ermmm. Concerns about over-penetration are most frequently raised when you are concerned about what to use for home defense (so you don't end up killing someone in the next room). Its one of the reasons why people use buck or bird shot for home defense. Are you saying that it is refreshing to hear gun owners be honest about using guns to defend themselves from other humans?
It's refreshing to hear gun owners be honest about wanting to mangle other humans. From the review:

Quote:
If you’ve ever heard the expression: “a hole big enough to toss a cat through,” consider that cats can fit any opening larger than their heads, and smaller breeds have heads under 2.5″ in circumference.
  #6668  
Old 02-01-2016, 03:23 PM
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Someone please help me!

I don't have a gun, but my home has NEVER been invaded!

What should I do?

Won't someone please HELP me?!?
  #6669  
Old 02-01-2016, 03:32 PM
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At this point you are dissecting data to find the little sliver that best supports your argument. Why do you need to dissect more granularly when you know that CCW holders are more law abiding than the general population (in Texas) more law abiding than the police?
I don't write for Wonkblog and that looks like more wishful thinking to me.

Quote:
How does saying that there are ~3 mass shootings by CCW permit holders every year somehow negate the fact that CCW permit holders are more law abiding?
Way to miss the point. You do that a lot. It's one of the many reasons I'm a dumbass for responding.

Quote:
Its not because getting the license makes you more law abiding, the fact of the matter is that the process associated with getting a CCW creates a pretty significant self selection bias.
Yeah, you have to take a class and stuff.

Last edited by Dave Hartwick; 02-01-2016 at 03:32 PM.
  #6670  
Old 02-01-2016, 11:08 PM
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Because Texas, motherfucker!

I know posting a link without comment is poor form, but really, nothing else to say here other than dipshit gun owner road rage.
  #6671  
Old 02-02-2016, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Its not because getting the license makes you more law abiding, the fact of the matter is that the process associated with getting a CCW creates a pretty significant self selection bias.
Yeah, you have to take a class and stuff.
I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the state and federal background checks that are also required.

But don't let actual facts interfere with your snark.
  #6672  
Old 02-02-2016, 10:14 AM
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Methinks (IIRC) these folks need to visit The Box O’ Truth.

CMC fnord!
Did you mean to criticize the use of birdshot because it has low stopping power or did you mean to criticize the use of buck shot because they actually do penetrate walls.

IIRC #1 birdshot has low penetration but still has stopping power at the ultra short range you would have in a home defense situation. #1 or #4 buck has more penetration and stopping power. 00 buck has too much penetration IMHO.
  #6673  
Old 02-02-2016, 10:21 AM
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It's refreshing to hear gun owners be honest about wanting to mangle other humans. From the review:
That's sort of the purpose of a home defense gun. You're not trying to tickle them.

Where did you get the impression that home defense guns were not meant to hurt the intruder? The purpose of these slugs is to hurt the intruder without inadvertently hurting people that may be on the other side of a wall.

I am not sure I see the benefit of a frangible slug over buckshot, it seems like a gimmick to me but time will tell.
  #6674  
Old 02-02-2016, 10:24 AM
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Did you mean to criticize the use of birdshot because it has low stopping power or did you mean to criticize the use of buck shot because they actually do penetrate walls.
Uhh, both.

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
IIRC #1 birdshot has low penetration but still has stopping power at the ultra short range you would have in a home defense situation. #1 or #4 buck has more penetration and stopping power. 00 buck has too much penetration IMHO.
First of all, you didn't meant to use IIRC there. Secondly, did you even read the link? Bird shot does not have the stopping power required, even at a range of 6 ft if you read all the way to the bottom of the page. Any buckshot that has the required stopping power will also penetrate walls. The conclusion from that link:

Quote:
Any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn’t penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.
This idea that there's some "safe" home defense round is just a myth. It's either unsafe, or it's insufficient. There's no magic bullet, so to speak.

Yet another reason guns suck for self defense.
  #6675  
Old 02-02-2016, 10:31 AM
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Uhh, both.



First of all, you didn't meant to use IIRC there. Secondly, did you even read the link? Bird shot does not have the stopping power required, even at a range of 6 ft if you read all the way to the bottom of the page. Any buckshot that has the required stopping power will also penetrate walls. The conclusion from that link:



This idea that there's some "safe" home defense round is just a myth. It's either unsafe, or it's insufficient. There's no magic bullet, so to speak.

Yet another reason guns suck for self defense.
Thanks, less typing for me!

CMC fnord!
  #6676  
Old 02-02-2016, 12:47 PM
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I don't write for Wonkblog and that looks like more wishful thinking to me.

Way to miss the point. You do that a lot. It's one of the many reasons I'm a dumbass for responding.
I think you're missing MY point. Segregating out that tiny little sliver of data that shows 29 mass shootings by people with CCWs over the last 10 years and presenting as evidence of the risk presented by CCW permit holders when we know that CCW holders are more law abiding that cops is a pretty silly attempt at cherrypicking.

Quote:
Yeah, you have to take a class and stuff.
Its more than that. Its a bit of a pain in the ass to get a CCW. Your name gets submitted to the sheriff (at least around here) and he has a few weeks to object to your permit (for cause) for objective reasons that would not bar you from purchasing a gun in this state. Its like an extra background check at the local level.

When I get pulled over and they pull up my license plate, the cops know that the registered owner of the car is a CCW permit holder. My permit was until recently a matter of public record (I think we can all remember when some newspaper thought it would be a good idea to publish the names and addresses of people with CCW permits).

That is not to say that CCW permit holders are saints but the threshold to be a permit holder is higher than the threshold to own a gun.
  #6677  
Old 02-02-2016, 02:16 PM
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Uhh, both.

First of all, you didn't meant to use IIRC there.
I meant ISTM.

Quote:
Secondly, did you even read the link?
Yes, and I disagree with your random internet blogger's conclusions. I don't think you need to blow a fist sized hole through a guy to stop him. I don't think you need to drop a guy to stop a guy.

When these guys say they want to stop a guy they seem to mean kill him dead, no ifs ands or buts. I'm willing to risk letting the guy live in order to reduce the chance that I kill someone in the next room or the next house.

Quote:
Bird shot does not have the stopping power required, even at a range of 6 ft if you read all the way to the bottom of the page. Any buckshot that has the required stopping power will also penetrate walls. The conclusion from that link:
The article says that at a range of 6 feet the #4 and #1 birdshot penetrated 6 sheets of drywall while the 00 buck penetrated 7 or 8 sheets. Then later on they go on to say that birdshot only penetrated 2 sheets of drywall and got stuck in the third sheet of drywall. I can only assume he means birdshot other than #4 and #1. or the second set of tests was performed at ranges longer than 6 feet.

And once again their definition of "stopping the guy" seems to mean blowing a fist sized hole through him. There is almost no balancing done between "blowing fist sized holes in the guy" factor and "not killing your neighbor" by accident factor.

At close ranges like 6 feet, I feel pretty comfortable that #1 birdshot will cause a lot of damage. I'm also pretty comfortable that I won't be able to shoot through my wall, through my neighbor's wall and still have enough energy to more than scratch my neighbor.

Quote:
This idea that there's some "safe" home defense round is just a myth.
Who said safe?

Quote:
It's either unsafe, or it's insufficient. There's no magic bullet, so to speak
Yet another reason guns suck for self defense..
Its a tradeoff of different factors (it always is, I trade off firepower and accuracy for size, weight and maneuverability when use a handgun over a rifle, similarly I trade off one set of characteristics for another when I go with one load over another). And if guns are not for you, for whatever reason, then feel free to not have a gun. But forgive me if I don't take your word for it that guns are not useful for self defense when I have seen them successfully used for self defense by entire communities.
  #6678  
Old 02-02-2016, 02:26 PM
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The article says that at a range of 6 feet the #4 and #1 birdshot penetrated 6 sheets of drywall while the 00 buck penetrated 7 or 8 sheets. Then later on they go on to say that birdshot only penetrated 2 sheets of drywall and got stuck in the third sheet of drywall. I can only assume he means birdshot other than #4 and #1. or the second set of tests was performed at ranges longer than 6 feet.
Clearly you didn't read the link very well then; the #4 and #1 loads were both buckshot.
  #6680  
Old 02-02-2016, 06:53 PM
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Interesting link. Wonder how comprehensive it is?
  #6681  
Old 02-02-2016, 07:07 PM
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Someone please help me!

I don't have a gun, but my home has NEVER been invaded!

What should I do?

Won't someone please HELP me?!?
The one time my home was invaded, in Honolulu, it was while I was in the shower. Really. I heard them leaving as I stepped out of the shower stall. So my advice is to be packin' even when you're in the shower, just in case.
  #6682  
Old 02-02-2016, 08:23 PM
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Yes, and I disagree with your random internet blogger's conclusions. I don't think you need to blow a fist sized hole through a guy to stop him. I don't think you need to drop a guy to stop a guy.

When these guys say they want to stop a guy they seem to mean kill him dead, no ifs ands or buts.
I'm good with just stopping an attacker. I just want to be able to stop Andre the Giant on bath salts.
  #6683  
Old 02-03-2016, 11:35 AM
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Clearly you didn't read the link very well then; the #4 and #1 loads were both buckshot.
Yes. I misread that. My general point was that a lot of folks think that #1 buckshot is an ineffective defense round because it lacks lethality. I think its sufficient for close range home defense.

Must gun sits disagree and prefer round that can punch holes through 2 by 4s. But based on penetration tests, the #1 Bird seems sufficient. I also use #4 buck and I am surprised they have so much penetration.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...arious-rounds/
  #6684  
Old 02-03-2016, 11:41 AM
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The one time my home was invaded, in Honolulu, it was while I was in the shower. Really. I heard them leaving as I stepped out of the shower stall. So my advice is to be packin' even when you're in the shower, just in case.
I've never been home during a home invasion but the one time I found myself in the middle of a riot, I saw a bunch of armed citizens prevent a neighborhood from being looted and burned down.
  #6685  
Old 02-03-2016, 11:46 AM
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I'm good with just stopping an attacker. I just want to be able to stop Andre the Giant on bath salts.
I hear you but I think you can over do it.

I carry around a spare tire, jump starter and car jack in my car. I do not carry around an extra starter engine and mechanic's toolkit.
  #6686  
Old 02-06-2016, 05:43 AM
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8-year-old stole mom's gun, tried to rob store.
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“When I grabbed my purse, it was so light … I knew I was missing something. I said ‘where’s my gun?’ The first thing I thought was I hope Jaden doesn’t have my gun.”
  #6687  
Old 02-06-2016, 06:44 AM
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The little dickens.
  #6688  
Old 02-06-2016, 10:23 AM
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Eleven-year old Tennessee boy kills girl who refused to play with him, using his Dad's shotgun. (This story is a few months old, back in the news with a murder conviction.)

One dead, seven injured in Tampa gentleman's club.

Perhaps these belong in the Positive Gun News thread. Those shot at the strip club probably did something wrong; and the 8-year old Tennessee girl ridiculed the young man's 2nd Amendment rights. They got what they had coming.
  #6689  
Old 02-06-2016, 05:49 PM
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O.C. Sheriff's deputy loses AR-15 rifle, ammunition after placing case on trunk, driving away in Aliso Viejo
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An Orange County Sheriff’s Department patrol deputy lost an AR-15 rifle late Tuesday night after placing it on the trunk of a patrol vehicle before becoming distracted and driving away. It was seven hours later when he realized the gun was gone.

It has yet to be found.
  #6690  
Old 02-08-2016, 04:38 PM
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Boy, 3, Accidentally Shoots Sister, 9, Dead With Great-Grandfather's Pistol

- A nine-year-old girl was accidentally shot in the head by her three-year-old little brother over the weekend, authorities say.
- Watson (grandfather) said he left the firearm out without knowing his great-grandchildren were coming to visit.
- According to the Washington Post, Kimi is the fifth person to be hurt in an accidental shooting by a toddler since Jan. 1. Also this year, at least four toddlers have accidentally shot themselves.

Tragic. Of course, Grandpa (presumably a responsible gun owner) didn't secure his weapon even though he was home when the grandkids were there. No doubt he will live with guilt the rest of his life, but I think he should be charged with whatever is appropriate in his jurisdiction for such criminal negligence. I also think all firearm owners should have liability insurance for such an event. YMMV.
  #6691  
Old 02-09-2016, 10:48 AM
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Thief Who Stole More Than 85 Guns Receives Probation In Plea Deal.

This is how criminals get guns.
  #6692  
Old 02-09-2016, 10:52 AM
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Because Texas, motherfucker!

I know posting a link without comment is poor form, but really, nothing else to say here other than dipshit gun owner road rage.
Uh, just to be clear, that happened in Henderson, NV; a few miles from my house, in fact.
  #6693  
Old 02-09-2016, 11:00 AM
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I almost forgot: police know who both men are and both men have filed incident reports with the police. Cite.
  #6694  
Old 02-09-2016, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
The one time my home was invaded, in Honolulu, it was while I was in the shower. Really. I heard them leaving as I stepped out of the shower stall. So my advice is to be packin' even when you're in the shower, just in case.
Sorry, this anecdote is quite clearly impossible. Interactions between intruders and unarmed residents always end in death. The fact that you are alive today indicates that you must have used a gun to repel the intruder. Otherwise one would have to believe that come cases of defensive gun use in which people reported how a gun saved their life when they heard a intruder in their house could have been resolved without the use of a firearm, and so don't actually represent a life saved by a gun, which is preposterous.
  #6695  
Old 02-12-2016, 12:43 PM
Folacin is offline
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Two dead at an Arizona high school. No details about who/why.
  #6697  
Old 02-24-2016, 10:22 PM
Defensive Indifference is offline
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A 12-year-old girl was accidentally shot in the stomach during a meeting of the "Three Percent of Idaho", a well regulated militia allied with Cliven Bundy. It seems a member of the well regulated militia was cleaning a loaded weapon, as one does, and the girl was foolish enough to have chosen to stand in the path of the bullet. The girl was flown to a hospital. The precious, precious bullet was, tragically, a complete loss.

We can only hope the well regulated militia takes this as a learning opportunity and, at their next scheduled training session, stresses the importance of fire discipline and the conservation of precious, precious ammunition. It has not been announced if the soldier who discharged his weapon will face disciplinary action. The article doesn't say, but I would think the militiaman would be looking at a poor performance review and perhaps a reduction in rank. At the very least, this spoils any hope of promotion he may have had.


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...-percent-idaho
  #6698  
Old 02-25-2016, 07:59 AM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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There are more suicide deaths in Japan every year than in America and Japan is only a fraction of the size of America. All this despite the fact that we have guns. Go figure.

In other news, more people have died of blowfish poisoning in Japan this year than in all of America in 2014 and Japan is STILL only a fraction of the size of America.

How are these comparisons to Japan useful for anything?
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:09 AM
Scumpup is offline
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What is it about Japan that should make this statistic particularly meaningful?
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Old 02-25-2016, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
There are more suicide deaths in Japan every year than in America and Japan is only a fraction of the size of America. All this despite the fact that we have guns. Go figure.
Not true. In 2014, Japan had 25,374 suicides. The US had 41,149.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
How are these comparisons to Japan useful for anything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scumpup View Post
What is it about Japan that should make this statistic particularly meaningful?
I think the author of the article is pointing out that Japan has strict gun laws, a sizable population and is a highly developed country and they do not kill each other with guns very often while the US has lax gun laws, a more sizable population and is a highly developed country and we do kill each other with guns very often.

You couldn't see that comparison for yourselves?
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