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  #9151  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Indiana boy, dad, shot when gun discharges while wrestlingI hope they do identify him And I hope it's because he's charged with manslaughter or whatever the appropriate terms for this kind of negligence causing serious injury.

No, I don't give a fuck that it's father and son. This was not an unforeseeable accident; charge him with the crime, please.
Guess he had to protect himself from that toddler!

He really does need to be charged. None of that “suffered enough” crap. If it had been a babysitter that was concealed carrying and the gun went off, people would be calling for the babysitter’s head. If you can’t control the deadly weapon you are carrying, you shouldn’t be allowed to carry it anymore.

I guess he felt threatened all the time, enough to risk carrying a deadly weapon on his body at all times. That is sad. Great going dad. You really protected yourself and your family!
  #9152  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:32 PM
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It's amazing how often we're told, "guns don't just go off when they're dropped" in spite of all the times they seem to do exactly that.
No, that is only when dropped on a hard surface. Note this part that quarryBo quoted:

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… the two were play wrestling Sunday night on a bed … when the gun … fell and discharged one shot …
So, just be careful around soft surfaces, where, as we know, pistols can shoot unexpectedly.

Last edited by eschereal; 01-24-2020 at 12:34 PM.
  #9153  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:33 PM
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What if there was a home invasion right while they were wrestling? Without having that gun right on hand, the two might have been hurt by the invaders!
  #9154  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:38 PM
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No, that is only when dropped on a hard surface. Note this part that quarryBo quoted:



So, just be careful around soft surfaces, where, as we know, pistols can shoot unexpectedly.
What about that guy who was dancing at a bar and his gun fell off him and went off? I think he was perhaps an FBI agent or similar. I’m not able right now to look up the details but can do so later if needed.

I don’t know anything about guns so don’t know if the “safety” (whatever that is) could have malfunctioned or what.
  #9155  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:20 PM
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What about that guy who was dancing at a bar and his gun fell off him and went off? I think he was perhaps an FBI agent or similar. I’m not able right now to look up the details but can do so later if needed.
I was being maybe a little sarcastic. These guns are not supposed to go off except when you want them to. There was a story some while back about a gun that went off and injured a mail handler (who ships a loaded gun with a chambered round?), which was supposed to be designed with a hammer plate so that there could be no shell contact without the trigger being pulled, but, somehow that failed.

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I don’t know anything about guns so don’t know if the “safety” (whatever that is) could have malfunctioned or what.
AAUI, there are two kinds of safeties. The active kind is a lever that the user has to engage or disengage to lock the trigger. The passive kind is supposed to prevent accidental discharge with an elaborate mechanism that must have a trigger pull for the required parts to get to the shell. What I suspect happened is that the trigger became involved with some bedding and the wrestling action finished the job.

But it still fails to address the issue of the level of paranoia that drives a person to feel the need to have a gun on himself every waking moment (and probably close at hand while sleeping). It seems unfortunate to me that these powderkegs survive as long as they do.
  #9156  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:46 PM
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I was being maybe a little sarcastic. These guns are not supposed to go off except when you want them to. There was a story some while back about a gun that went off and injured a mail handler (who ships a loaded gun with a chambered round?), which was supposed to be designed with a hammer plate so that there could be no shell contact without the trigger being pulled, but, somehow that failed.



AAUI, there are two kinds of safeties. The active kind is a lever that the user has to engage or disengage to lock the trigger. The passive kind is supposed to prevent accidental discharge with an elaborate mechanism that must have a trigger pull for the required parts to get to the shell. What I suspect happened is that the trigger became involved with some bedding and the wrestling action finished the job.

But it still fails to address the issue of the level of paranoia that drives a person to feel the need to have a gun on himself every waking moment (and probably close at hand while sleeping). It seems unfortunate to me that these powderkegs survive as long as they do.
I totally agree.

However, the idea that a gun can go off accidentally in a fairly easy manner just adds another layer of insanity to it, in my view. Why is it that guns are forgiven for this? Other weapons wouldn’t be accepted this way, I don’t think. Nobody would want to carry a small bomb on themselves all the time that “probably” won’t go off if it gets jostled or dropped. I guess because a gun’s purpose is viewed as attacking someone else whereas a bomb can hurt anyone near it. But a gun can also do this.
  #9157  
Old 01-25-2020, 03:41 AM
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What about that guy who was dancing at a bar and his gun fell off him and went off? I think he was perhaps an FBI agent or similar. I’m not able right now to look up the details but can do so later if needed.

I don’t know anything about guns so don’t know if the “safety” (whatever that is) could have malfunctioned or what.
He was an FBI agent and IIRC was doing inebriated back-flips at an alcohol bar. I think the gun might have been a Glock for which lack of a safety is considered a feature. (Who can spare an extra second to switch the safety off when a Muslim jumps out of a closet?)

I remember the incident because I posted something like "If he didn't want to leave the gun in his car, couldn't he at least have removed the round from the chamber?"

That earned me rebukes from several Dopers. I was a complete ignoramus — the idea that anyone would carry a pistol without a round already in the chamber was too absurd for discussion.

There would be many fewer gun accidents if it weren't for this peculiar obsession of keeping a gun cocked and ready-to-fire at all times. (It takes about one second to cock a Glock, and the distinctive sound and action would serve as warning that you mean business. I guess for American Neo-Gunslingers the way to warn that business is meant is a bullet penetrating your victim's heart.)
  #9158  
Old 01-25-2020, 04:21 AM
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In the FBI drunk guy case, in all likelihood the gun fell out onto the floor due to backflipping and when drunk FBI guy quickly grabbed it to get it back he pulled the trigger enough to fire a bullet randomly into some guy. Very unlikely that such make and model would go off from falling on the floor.
  #9159  
Old 01-25-2020, 09:52 AM
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In the FBI drunk guy case, in all likelihood the gun fell out onto the floor due to backflipping and when drunk FBI guy quickly grabbed it to get it back he pulled the trigger enough to fire a bullet randomly into some guy. Very unlikely that such make and model would go off from falling on the floor.
Now that I’ve looked it up, I think this is what happened. You can actually see video of the incident and it doesn’t appear to go off until he frantically grabs it.
  #9160  
Old 01-25-2020, 10:30 AM
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Guess he had to protect himself from that toddler!

He really does need to be charged. None of that “suffered enough” crap. If it had been a babysitter that was concealed carrying and the gun went off, people would be calling for the babysitter’s head. If you can’t control the deadly weapon you are carrying, you shouldn’t be allowed to carry it anymore.

I guess he felt threatened all the time, enough to risk carrying a deadly weapon on his body at all times. That is sad. Great going dad. You really protected yourself and your family!
The boy died.

I got a message that said you have chosen a post that is not part of this discussion.

Last edited by margin; 01-25-2020 at 10:31 AM.
  #9161  
Old 01-25-2020, 11:07 AM
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"X happened and it just went off" often upon closer scrutiny becomes something like "Y and/or Z happened in the right order while I was otherwise distracted so that when X happened it went off". Which of course still means goddamn stupid use of a dangerous tool.

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Now that I’ve looked it up, I think this is what happened. You can actually see video of the incident and it doesn’t appear to go off until he frantically grabs it.
Right - it did not fire upon hitting the floor but upon him rushing to grab it.

Also, about safeties: as mentioned not all weapons have the same safety mechanisms, and some users either introduce factors that weaken those, such as installing a lighter trigger, or choose to ignore small but critical details such that for example a striker-fired pistol has no "decocking" feature so it's even more imperative than usual to remember to keep both foreign objects and fingers out of the trigger guard.

However, that said, you don't engage in horseplay while you are carrying, no matter what. That is asking for trouble big time.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 01-25-2020 at 11:09 AM.
  #9162  
Old 01-25-2020, 04:22 PM
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The boy died.
That is sad as hell. That dad needs to never have access to guns again, but it's too late for his little boy.
  #9163  
Old 01-27-2020, 01:07 PM
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We all know that school shootings happen because 'we took God out of the schools'- which makes church shootings particularly puzzling- so who knows why this member of the well-regulated militia was taking a gun to church.

Was there criminal intent? Maybe he wanted to have it blessed. Maybe he intended to protect the flock.
Maybe he was just putting the gun away after surviving the US's well-known and harrowing traditional Sunday morning traffic jams.

But PTL, hallelujah, and pass the hat- the only person he shot was himself!

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  #9164  
Old 01-27-2020, 03:52 PM
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That is sad as hell. That dad needs to never have access to guns again, but it's too late for his little boy.
Based on the dementia, the absolute crippling paranoia of the father, that he felt the need to have or gun on his person every moment of the day, we might find consolation in the inference that the boy would have most likely been raised in a way that would have exacerbated his probably faulty genes, turning him into an insane criminal. Thus, the gun took rid of someone who was a potential thug. That would be a good thing, right?

Meanwhile, since the father has displayed his mental/emotional defect so clearly, he needs to be institutionalized (indefinitely), so that he can have space to deal with his grief, have his dementia properly treated and be kept well away from any firearms.
  #9165  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:03 AM
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Apparently you're allowed to bypass the metal dectector at the Kentucky state house if you have a gun, making it unclear why the metal detector is there in the first place.
  #9166  
Old 02-07-2020, 01:53 PM
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Apparently you're allowed to bypass the metal dectector at the Kentucky state house if you have a gun, making it unclear why the metal detector is there in the first place.
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I was there the other day. There's still a sign says you can't have posters on a stick, but the state police told me if I taped a poster to a rifle barrel, that'd be fine. Totally serious.
But I don't think there's much mystery about the metal detector. Some gunslingers are turned back. See anything different? Zoom in on their skin color.
  #9167  
Old 03-15-2020, 10:47 AM
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Wow, no stupid gun news in over a month? Unpossible!

Just to what the appetite, here's a minor one. It seems like there's a "gun show" every other weekend around here. At one such show yesterday, a man shot himself in the leg outside the show: https://www.kmov.com/news/man-accide...7405b.amp.html
  #9168  
Old 03-15-2020, 10:51 AM
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Duplicate post.

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 03-15-2020 at 10:52 AM.
  #9169  
Old 03-15-2020, 01:10 PM
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At one such show yesterday, a man shot himself in the leg outside the show: https://www.kmov.com/news/man-accide...7405b.amp.html
Over the course of my life I've handled a variety of deadly weapons. The rules for handling a gun safely are easy to remember and practice, especially when ignoring the rules means a bullet in your leg, the death of yourself or a bystander, pain and humiliation.
  #9170  
Old 03-15-2020, 03:18 PM
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Over the course of my life I've handled a variety of deadly weapons. The rules for handling a gun safely are easy to remember and practice, especially when ignoring the rules means a bullet in your leg, the death of yourself or a bystander, pain and humiliation.
Heh. That reminds me of a friend back in West Texas. He was not what you would call a gun nut but did own a gun. And he was well versed in all the safety practices. But he still managed stupidly to shoot himself in the foot one day. A friend had picked him up to take him to a shooting range, and sitting there in the passenger seat of the car, he went and pointed the gun at his foot and pulled the trigger, suddenly surprised to find there was a round in the chamber. And this was a guy who in most regards could be considered a responsible gun owner. Level-headed, not a nut in any sense. He admitted the complete stupidity of his action, said he didn't know what he was thinking of. But said by sheer coincidence, at the Emergency Room were two other cases of gun owners shooting themselves in the foot that same morning!
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  #9171  
Old 03-16-2020, 06:41 PM
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How can a person be "well versed in all the safety practices" and also "pointed the gun at his foot and pulled the trigger"?
  #9172  
Old 03-16-2020, 06:59 PM
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How can a person be "well versed in all the safety practices" and also "pointed the gun at his foot and pulled the trigger"?
That's what makes it stupid gun news. Idiots doing dumb shit that they know they shouldn't.
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:06 PM
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How can a person be "well versed in all the safety practices" and also "pointed the gun at his foot and pulled the trigger"?
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  #9174  
Old 03-17-2020, 05:49 AM
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It's amazing how often we're told, "guns don't just go off when they're dropped" in spite of all the times they seem to do exactly that.
Doesn't matter what you think they seem to do. That isn't what happens. Unless it's broken, half a century old, or it's an early P320 in specific laboratory conditions, you're not going to get a firearm to discharge simply by dropping it. What's happening is people are pulling the trigger, or causing the trigger to be pulled, and they are so confused or so worried about getting into legal trouble, they tell investigators, "It just went off." or "It fired when it fell.". Ignorant reports write this as fact and then the uniformed read it and believe it.
The FBI club video is a perfect example of this. There were several stories that all said the gun fired when it fell. That's not what happened at all.
  #9175  
Old 03-17-2020, 05:54 AM
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Doesn't matter what you think they seem to do. That isn't what happens. Unless it's broken, half a century old, or it's an early P320 in specific laboratory conditions, you're not going to get a firearm to discharge simply by dropping it. What's happening is people are pulling the trigger, or causing the trigger to be pulled, and they are so confused or so worried about getting into legal trouble, they tell investigators, "It just went off." or "It fired when it fell.". Ignorant reports write this as fact and then the uniformed read it and believe it.
The FBI club video is a perfect example of this. There were several stories that all said the gun fired when it fell. That's not what happened at all.
TBF there are some guns (mentioned in this very thread) that have been known to go off half-cocked [sic] because the drop shears off the pin. But I suspect you're correct that most of these incidents involve accidental trigger pulls due to mishandling.
  #9176  
Old 03-17-2020, 08:38 AM
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Doesn't matter what you think they seem to do. That isn't what happens. Unless it's broken, half a century old, or it's an early P320 in specific laboratory conditions, you're not going to get a firearm to discharge simply by dropping it. What's happening is people are pulling the trigger, or causing the trigger to be pulled, and they are so confused or so worried about getting into legal trouble, they tell investigators, "It just went off." or "It fired when it fell.". Ignorant reports write this as fact and then the uniformed read it and believe it.
The FBI club video is a perfect example of this. There were several stories that all said the gun fired when it fell. That's not what happened at all.
The bolded part is kind of the sticking point, innit? "Guns are perfectly safe, unless they're broken." Well, guess what? Mechanical things break. Mechanical things don't always work as planned. Mechanical things sometimes have production problems. The brakes in my car stop the car perfectly.... unless something is wrong with them.

In addition, I'm not at all comforted by argument that the guns aren't going off, it's just gun owners being careless. Between "a gun is a poorly manufactured device that can go off when it's dropped" and "a gun is a deadly device that requires utmost care and attention but we let any fuckhead have one" I honestly can't decide which is worse.

I'm sure you are a responsible gun owner who ensures his guns are in perfect working condition. You're special.

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 03-17-2020 at 08:39 AM.
  #9177  
Old 03-17-2020, 02:38 PM
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The bolded part is kind of the sticking point, innit?
No. Because it is not in anyway common for a gun to break in such a way that it fires when dropped. I added it not as a sticking point, but rather to prevent someone from finding a "gotcha" story about a broken gun that fired when dropped. A gun that is sufficiently broken to fire when dropped is likely to be one that is sufficiently broken beyond use.

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"Guns are perfectly safe, unless they're broken." Well, guess what? Mechanical things break. Mechanical things don't always work as planned. Mechanical things sometimes have production problems. The brakes in my car stop the car perfectly.... unless something is wrong with them.
The brakes on your car are actually a pretty good analogy. What is the likelihood that your brakes will completely fail the next time you press them? How often does such a thing actually happen? A dead battery is common. Out of gas is common. Total, catastrophic brake failure is not.

Quote:
In addition, I'm not at all comforted by argument that the guns aren't going off, it's just gun owners being careless. Between "a gun is a poorly manufactured device that can go off when it's dropped" and "a gun is a deadly device that requires utmost care and attention but we let any fuckhead have one" I honestly can't decide which is worse.
It doesn't matter which is worse. Only one of those scenarios is remotely based in reality and it isn't the former. It isn't comforting, but it's the truth.

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I'm sure you are a responsible gun owner who ensures his guns are in perfect working condition. You're special.
Not special. There is a huge gap between "perfect working condition" and "broken". And poor firearm maintenance is more likely to cause a gun to not fire at all rather than to cause it to fire when dropped.

Last edited by Bear_Nenno; 03-17-2020 at 02:41 PM.
  #9178  
Old 03-17-2020, 03:00 PM
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TBF there are some guns (mentioned in this very thread) that have been known to go off half-cocked [sic] because the drop shears off the pin. But I suspect you're correct that most of these incidents involve accidental trigger pulls due to mishandling.
I don't know if that's being fair, though. No firearm should ever be carried half-cocked. This would be like putting a stick in a Glock trigger guard and then dropping it. Then blaming the discharge on the "drop", rather than the "stick in the trigger guard".
  #9179  
Old 03-17-2020, 03:53 PM
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It doesn't matter which is worse. Only one of those scenarios is remotely based in reality and it isn't the former. It isn't comforting, but it's the truth.
Then, to be quite honest, I don't give a flying fuck how well guns are designed and how often they break or not. If reality is, "guns are liable to go off at any time because they are routinely handled by fuckheads" then that's kind of a flaw in the system. Gee, it didn't "go off:" because it hit the floor. It went off because the fuckhead didn't perform the right ritual with it. Great. It's honestly not a distinction I want to waste a lot of time on. It went off and someone now has an extra hole in their body.
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Old 03-17-2020, 07:05 PM
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Then, to be quite honest, I don't give a flying fuck how well guns are designed and how often they break or not. If reality is, "guns are liable to go off at any time because they are routinely handled by fuckheads" then that's kind of a flaw in the system. Gee, it didn't "go off:" because it hit the floor. It went off because the fuckhead didn't perform the right ritual with it. Great. It's honestly not a distinction I want to waste a lot of time on. It went off and someone now has an extra hole in their body.
Great. Then say that next time instead of, "It's amazing how often we're told, "guns don't just go off when they're dropped" in spite of all the times they seem to do exactly that."
  #9181  
Old 03-17-2020, 08:04 PM
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Well, folks. I appreciate this thread for the factual information presented. Guns ARE dangerous and there are more than 15 functional firearms in my house, with three in my family having unlimited access. Nothing better than to regularly show and teach the people in the house how to handle them correctly, and stowing them away safely when there's no need for it. But frankly I'm more worried about teenagers who drive.
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Old 03-17-2020, 08:08 PM
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Great. Then say that next time instead of, "It's amazing how often we're told, "guns don't just go off when they're dropped" in spite of all the times they seem to do exactly that."
Nah, I'll continue to post the way I want. If you want a deep technical discussion of guns and what modern marvels they are, then maybe a Pit thread where people come to blow off steam isn't the right venue for you.
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Old 03-17-2020, 08:18 PM
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I have actually observed a real doozy: the British Sten gun. Those not familiar can google image it and note the lateral position of the magazine relative to the gun. One was dropped in a test facility from 3 feet. It went off full auto with a full magazine while resting on the end of the mag and the buttstock. It was pivoting counter-clockwise as it was firing, like a lethal garden hose.
  #9184  
Old 03-18-2020, 04:36 AM
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I don't know if that's being fair, though. No firearm should ever be carried half-cocked. This would be like putting a stick in a Glock trigger guard and then dropping it. Then blaming the discharge on the "drop", rather than the "stick in the trigger guard".
That's fine. I'll just add that to the growing list of exceptions the next time someone tells me "Guns NEVER go off when dropped".
  #9185  
Old 03-18-2020, 08:20 AM
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Nah, I'll continue to post the way I want. If you want a deep technical discussion of guns and what modern marvels they are, then maybe a Pit thread where people come to blow off steam isn't the right venue for you.
Well, if you want to blow off steam with no regard for actual facts, then maybe a message board devoted to fighting ignorance isn't the right venue for you. It's entirely possible to base your rants around facts and reality rather than what seems to be true or what feels more comforting.
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:20 AM
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"You people just want to ignore facts. Also, any examples that contradict my position TOTALLY DON'T COUNT."
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Old 03-18-2020, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
"You people just want to ignore facts. Also, any examples that contradict my position TOTALLY DON'T COUNT."
That would be a fair criticism if you presented an example that contradicted the statement. Please provide an actual example, and I'll concede the point. Don't make up a hypothetical. Actually show me an example of a modern (made in the last half century) firearm accidentally discharging from being dropped. Laboratory testing of the P320 do not count. These were recalled and corrected. If, as you seem to imply, it was acceptable for guns to fire when dropped, then the P320 performance would not have been such a big deal.
Articles like that most recent one are not an example of a firearm discharging from being dropped. It's an example of an ignorant news reporter repeating the "story" of a man facing potentially criminal chargers. Show me an expert who concluded after an investigation that a firearm did such a thing.
  #9188  
Old 03-18-2020, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
"You people just want to ignore facts. Also, any examples that contradict my position TOTALLY DON'T COUNT."
What's with the all CAPS? Does anything I've posted come off as yelling?
  #9189  
Old 03-18-2020, 10:38 AM
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Here's an article trying to churn up real-life examples of such a thing. Of the 4 real-life cases, three of them include old, antiquated firearms. Hell, they had to go all the way back to Wyatt Earp to find an example. The fourth example is an unknown firearm and the only source of information surrounding the incident is the lady who owned the gun. Someone was shot in the leg from her negligence, so of course she's going to say "it fired when it hit the ground". Who knows, maybe it did. I doubt it. It has more of a chance of being true if she was carrying a 100 year old firearm two of the other examples.
I'm not seeing other examples of all the times they seem to do exactly that.
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Old 03-18-2020, 10:39 AM
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Here's an article trying to churn up real-life examples of such a thing. Of the 4 real-life cases, three of them include old, antiquated firearms. Hell, they had to go all the way back to Wyatt Earp to find an example. The fourth example is an unknown firearm and the only source of information surrounding the incident is the lady who owned the gun. Someone was shot in the leg from her negligence, so of course she's going to say "it fired when it hit the ground". Who knows, maybe it did. I doubt it. It has more of a chance of being true if she was carrying a 100 year old firearm like in two of the other examples.
I'm not seeing other examples of all the times they seem to do exactly that.

Last edited by Bear_Nenno; 03-18-2020 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 03-18-2020, 12:31 PM
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OK, I'll concede that it's rare for a gun to literally discharge when it strikes the ground. So we have a few possibilities, in roughly increasing order of likelihood by my WAG:

* The handler dropped an old gun and it discharged when it hit the ground
* The handler was carrying the gun half-cocked (or whatever), dropped it, and it discharged when it hit the ground
* The handler dropped a gun, and it discharged when it the handler clumsily tried to catch it
* The handler dropped a gun, and it discharged when it the handler clumsily tried to pick it up

Great. These temperamental beasts go bang when dropped for a number of reasons, the least likely of which is the literal impact on the ground. This is a critical, critical point. It doesn't go bang when it hits the ground (except if it's old or the handler is carrying it in an unsafe manner that no one on earth would ever think of doing; it goes bang when it hits the user's hand on its way to the ground.
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Old 03-18-2020, 12:42 PM
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dupe

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 03-18-2020 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 03-18-2020, 01:43 PM
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If we have thus established that the lion's share of existing weapons are mechanically disinclined to discharge by means other that a person specifically causing them to do so, and yet we still have accidental discharges, what is solution can we apply to significantly reduce accidental discharges?
  #9194  
Old 03-18-2020, 03:20 PM
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Somebody posted a photo in r/Sacramento of a line of people waiting to get into a gun shop in Sacramento. Looks like they're eagerly anticipating an apocalypse.
  #9195  
Old 03-18-2020, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
That would be a fair criticism if you presented an example that contradicted the statement. Please provide an actual example, and I'll concede the point. Don't make up a hypothetical. Actually show me an example of a modern (made in the last half century) firearm accidentally discharging from being dropped. Laboratory testing of the P320 do not count. These were recalled and corrected. If, as you seem to imply, it was acceptable for guns to fire when dropped, then the P320 performance would not have been such a big deal.
Articles like that most recent one are not an example of a firearm discharging from being dropped. It's an example of an ignorant news reporter repeating the "story" of a man facing potentially criminal chargers. Show me an expert who concluded after an investigation that a firearm did such a thing.
Show me where, at any point, I implied "it was acceptable for guns to fire when dropped". Of course I don't think that's acceptable and have never stated or implied that. Why would you infer that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
What's with the all CAPS? Does anything I've posted come off as yelling?
It was for emphasis. As in "Show me an example of a modern firearm accidentally discharging from being dropped - but the P320 TOTALLY DOESN'T COUNT".

An example I mentioned earlier in the thread is the Cobra derringer which is sometimes carried half-cocked (for reasons) and can easily accidentally discharge if dropped. Is this unsafe practice? Yes - but that doesn't nullify my point, even with some bumf about putting a "stick" in it. If anything, it qualifies those stories for this thread even moreso.

The point I'm trying to make and you seem determined to miss is that the absolutist position - that guns never go off when dropped - is false. If you were arguing that it was extremely rare for them to do so and only under certain conditions - sure, I'd be right on board with that. And indeed this is the position that Defensive Indifference has mostly just set out.

But nonetheless we have been told by many gun rights advocates on this board that it never happens - often with an additional helping of "It's just ignorant gun-grabber propaganda!". Which is bullshit, because sometimes - rarely, sure, but sometimes - it happens.
  #9196  
Old 03-18-2020, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Show me where, at any point, I implied "it was acceptable for guns to fire when dropped". Of course I don't think that's acceptable and have never stated or implied that. Why would you infer that?

It was for emphasis. As in "Show me an example of a modern firearm accidentally discharging from being dropped - but the P320 TOTALLY DOESN'T COUNT".

An example I mentioned earlier in the thread is the Cobra derringer which is sometimes carried half-cocked (for reasons) and can easily accidentally discharge if dropped. Is this unsafe practice? Yes - but that doesn't nullify my point, even with some bumf about putting a "stick" in it. If anything, it qualifies those stories for this thread even moreso.

The point I'm trying to make and you seem determined to miss is that the absolutist position - that guns never go off when dropped - is false. If you were arguing that it was extremely rare for them to do so and only under certain conditions - sure, I'd be right on board with that. And indeed this is the position that Defensive Indifference has mostly just set out.

But nonetheless we have been told by many gun rights advocates on this board that it never happens - often with an additional helping of "It's just ignorant gun-grabber propaganda!". Which is bullshit, because sometimes - rarely, sure, but sometimes - it happens.
And whether they go off when they hit the ground or when the handler reaches for them -- big whoop. They go off when they're dropped. Guns are death machines that go off when they're dropped frequently enough to be a problem, and we let any fuckhead saunter about with one.
  #9197  
Old 03-21-2020, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
How can a person be "well versed in all the safety practices" and also "pointed the gun at his foot and pulled the trigger"?
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Originally Posted by snfaulkner View Post
That's what makes it stupid gun news. Idiots doing dumb shit that they know they shouldn't.
That's it exactly. If there was anyone in this world I would have trusted with a gun, it would have been this guy. And still he managed to do that.
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  #9198  
Old 03-21-2020, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
I don't know if that's being fair, though. No firearm should ever be carried half-cocked. This would be like putting a stick in a Glock trigger guard and then dropping it. Then blaming the discharge on the "drop", rather than the "stick in the trigger guard".
Don't people do that with 1911's?
  #9199  
Old 03-21-2020, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
That would be a fair criticism if you presented an example that contradicted the statement. Please provide an actual example, and I'll concede the point. Don't make up a hypothetical. Actually show me an example of a modern (made in the last half century) firearm accidentally discharging from being dropped. Laboratory testing of the P320 do not count. These were recalled and corrected. If, as you seem to imply, it was acceptable for guns to fire when dropped, then the P320 performance would not have been such a big deal.
Articles like that most recent one are not an example of a firearm discharging from being dropped. It's an example of an ignorant news reporter repeating the "story" of a man facing potentially criminal chargers. Show me an expert who concluded after an investigation that a firearm did such a thing.
IIRC the Remington 700 was accused of accidental discharge with the safety on.

Product design defects are possible, they're very rare but they're possible.
  #9200  
Old 03-21-2020, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
And whether they go off when they hit the ground or when the handler reaches for them -- big whoop. They go off when they're dropped. Guns are death machines that go off when they're dropped frequently enough to be a problem, and we let any fuckhead saunter about with one.
How many times do you think that happens in a year?

Accidental discharge is almost unheard of. Negligent discharge is very uncommon.

Defensive gun uses measures in the hundreds of thousands a year.

if your point is that we should make sure that people take a safety class or something, I can get on board with that but if you are trying to demonize an inanimate object then I'm not sure that your mind can be changed by facts.
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