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  #2001  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:18 PM
Hentor the Barbarian is offline
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Originally Posted by Ca3799 View Post
I guess Kable has given up on edjamakating us.
Shhhhh! Ixnay on ayingsay "ableKay"! He might hear you and show up again.

Or maybe he expended all of the available YouTube clips.
  #2002  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:29 PM
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Kable claims that defensive gun use (he shortens this to the acronym 'DGU') to prevent crime events number in the millions every year, a figure I believe he obtained form the NRA.

[Dr. David Hemenway] believes the "DGU" number is more likely closer to 5,000 a year, or 0.8 % of crimes, if I understand correctly.
Both of these numbers could be correct depending on how DGU is defined. If DGU is anytime a gun was used to make the owner feel safer, then I could imagine it happening millions of times a year. It would be DGU anytime the owner heard a strange noise or a strange car pulled into his driveway and he got his gun to be safer. In most of these cases the gun was unnecessary, but it gave a sense of security to the owner.

If DGU is when a gun is used to prevent an actual attack, then a number like 5,000 seems more likely. This would be when the attacker actually has intent to harm the owner. This scenario is the most relevant to the gun debate since it is when the gun was actually used to prevent harm to the owner rather than just giving the owner a feeling of security against an unknown threat.
  #2003  
Old 04-22-2013, 02:10 PM
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That's the pig in the ointment, isn't it? Definitions. Is it a "defensive gun use" if you show the gun, but don't "brandish" it? How about if you just say you've got one, but don't show it? Or, stretching the point beyond the limits, claim to have one but really don't?

Last edited by elucidator; 04-22-2013 at 02:11 PM.
  #2004  
Old 04-22-2013, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ca3799
Kable claims that defensive gun use (he shortens this to the acronym 'DGU') to prevent crime events number in the millions every year, a figure I believe he obtained form the NRA.
The 2.5 million estimated DGU's per year includes such gems as:

You're walking down the street. Somebody on the other side of the street starts yelling at you. You yell back "Leave me alone, I have a gun!" He leaves.

You're in bed, in the middle of the night. Somebody breaks into your apartment to steal the TV from your living room. You lock your bedroom door and yell out, "Get out of here, I have a gun!" The home invader steals your TV and leaves.

Bear in mind that in neither of these instances do you physically use, or, really, even need to have a gun.
  #2005  
Old 04-22-2013, 03:55 PM
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Most people realized that some time ago, including the ones desperately trying to paint him as the second coming of Che Guevara to prevent his election and reelection.
LOL.
  #2006  
Old 04-22-2013, 04:03 PM
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As much as I like being up to date on all the latest news.....that first one, I could have done without.
I know. Good jeans are so expensive these days, it would suck to blast a hole through them.
  #2007  
Old 04-22-2013, 04:06 PM
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The 2.5 million estimated DGU's per year includes such gems as:

You're walking down the street. Somebody on the other side of the street starts yelling at you. You yell back "Leave me alone, I have a gun!" He leaves.

You're in bed, in the middle of the night. Somebody breaks into your apartment to steal the TV from your living room. You lock your bedroom door and yell out, "Get out of here, I have a gun!" The home invader steals your TV and leaves.

Bear in mind that in neither of these instances do you physically use, or, really, even need to have a gun.
Linky-dinky parlay voo? I'd like to have that to hand, it would be cite for sore eyes.
  #2008  
Old 04-22-2013, 04:11 PM
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Why is it gun control works in Australia but won't work in America? Because Australians aren't human!

Quote:
"It's not the United States. It's some other planet: different people, different everything ... but in the real world, with human beings, it's not going to work and gun control isn't going to work."
Guy#1: "I'll stop him!"

*BLAM BLAM BLAM*

Guy#2: "No you fool, it's an Australian! You'll only make it angry!"

Australian: "GNARRR!!!"
  #2009  
Old 04-22-2013, 05:11 PM
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Why is it gun control works in Australia but won't work in America? Because Australians aren't human!
Does this guy post here on the SDMB? Some of his debate chops seem very familiar....
  #2010  
Old 04-22-2013, 06:07 PM
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Linky-dinky parlay voo? I'd like to have that to hand, it would be cite for sore eyes.
Oh, good lord. It was one of Kable's links, you could search back through his posts...

Just kidding.

I think it might be the report they're talking about here:
Quote:
Kleck's study defines a DGU as a defensive action against a human (rather than an animal), involving actual contact with the person being defended against, in which the defender could state a specific crime which he or she thought was being committed at the time of the incident, and in which the defender's gun was actually used in some way, even if it was only as part of a verbal threat.
Note that the definition does not match up with the actual question used on the survey:
Quote:
Within the past five years, have you yourself or another member of your household used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere?
  #2011  
Old 04-22-2013, 10:19 PM
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I guess Kable has given up on edjamakating us.
Nah, I figure this thread is a gun-grabbers circle jerk and nobody is listening outside of yourselves. Plus I got what I wanted out of it already.

Quote:
The Violence Policy Center reported that in 2010, there were 19,393 gun suicides, 8,275 criminal gun homicides, 606 unintentional gun deaths, and a whopping 230 justifiable homicides.. http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf
How many DGUs per year does you paper cite? Be honest.

Quote:
Kable claims that defensive gun use (he shortens this to the acronym 'DGU') to prevent crime events number in the millions every year, a figure I believe he obtained form the NRA.
I do? Cite?

Quote:
From the link above: "According to the 2004 book Private Guns, Public Health by Dr. David Hemenway, Professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health and director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, "This estimate is not plausible and has been nominated as the “most outrageous number mentioned in a policy discussion by an
elected official.” " (Page 8, in the linked PDF)

He believes the "DGU" number is more likely closer to 5,000 a year, or 0.8 % of crimes, if I understand correctly.
How many reported in your cite? I don't see 5,000 mentioned anywhere. Be honest.
  #2012  
Old 04-23-2013, 05:10 AM
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Ca3799, I blame you.
  #2013  
Old 04-23-2013, 05:20 AM
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Ca3799, I blame you.

It is true. You were right.
  #2014  
Old 04-23-2013, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ca3799
I guess Kable has given up on edjamakating us.


Originally Posted by Kable
Nah, I figure this thread is a gun-grabbers circle jerk and nobody is listening outside of yourselves.


So, I was right, then? Your efforts have been in vain?
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  #2015  
Old 04-23-2013, 05:25 AM
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"It is wrong for law enforcement to keep this information to themselves," NRA spokesman Wayne LaPierre said during a speech yesterday evening. "All across this nation, Americans have been waiting to hear which weapons were used by these terrorists so that our members can go purchase those same weapons. Withholding this information serves no purpose other than make it more difficult for these patriots to know which models of guns they should next be stocking up on."

"NRA member Timothy Campbell of Dallas, Texas, says he has called Boston and MIT police departments over a dozen times since the murder of an MIT police officer last Thursday, but neither department has been willing to release the exact brands and models of guns used. While many cite fears that guns like the ones used in acts of terrorism or mass murder will be targeted for stricter regulation or even banning by the government, Campbell, an avid gun collector, says he recognizes that the odds that access to such weapons would be restricted are "essentially zero," he still is eager to purchase the guns as soon as the Tsarnaev weapons are identified. "I don't really know why I want to own them so bad," he said during an interview conducted this morning. "I guess it's probably a penis thing."

"A Boston-area Glock dealer who also wished to remain anonymous agreed. "Having one of our guns used in the shooting of an actual congressperson was probably the best advertisement we ever had. The sales were phenomenal afterwards."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...oston-shootout

Last edited by Ca3799; 04-23-2013 at 05:26 AM.
  #2016  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:24 AM
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"It is wrong for law enforcement to keep this information to themselves," NRA spokesman Wayne LaPierre said during a speech yesterday evening. "All across this nation, Americans have been waiting to hear which weapons were used by these terrorists so that our members can go purchase those same weapons. Withholding this information serves no purpose other than make it more difficult for these patriots to know which models of guns they should next be stocking up on."
You don't mean to suggest that the NRA's main priority is encouraging the sales of guns and ammunition rather than to protect the rights of responsible gun owners, do you? Why, only a crazy gun grabber would think that!
  #2017  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:34 AM
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Ca3799, it is probably worthwhile to point out that the piece you're quoting from above is satire and not actual quotes.

The dead give away should be the penis thing, of course.
  #2018  
Old 04-23-2013, 08:10 AM
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So, I was right, then? Your efforts have been in vain?
Of course not. Prior to the last few weeks I'd never been involved in a gun control debate so I wanted to practice it a bit, see what research there was on the topic, see what points you all would make and what you would ignore, see if you were honest or dishonest with your facts. See if I'd missed anything. You guys helped me answer all those questions, so I figure there is no point continuing to beat a dead horse in your little pocket of the internet. So carry on with your circle jerk, my sides won the debate, the gun-grabbers were outed, and the polls are continuing to shift back in our favor.

I'll leave you with one thing to think about. If gun fondling conservatives are really living in such fear induced by the NRA, how come they are so much happier than you?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/op...all.html?_r=3&
  #2019  
Old 04-23-2013, 09:54 AM
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Yes, the assholes who want to misrepresent the empirical evidence and other facts regarding the larger debate (including arguing for the interpretation of a non-significant crude association in a paper they otherwise dismiss as fraudulent) are the ones with intellectual integrity.

And as the evidence cited in your link shows, conservatives' self-reported happiness is associated with their justification of the status quo. I've never found the phrase "happy as a pig in shit" more apropos.

Kable, I do thank you for your participation. I have found a new benchmark for very stupid people who nevertheless are willing to show how stupid they are by arguing way out of their depth.

I am in all honesty most appreciative of your lack of shame. It's been highly amusing.
  #2020  
Old 04-23-2013, 01:04 PM
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Kable, I do thank you for your participation.
Thanks Hentor, keep your heart bleeding.
  #2021  
Old 04-23-2013, 01:31 PM
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If he has a gun in his house, he may be half-way there.
  #2022  
Old 04-24-2013, 06:29 PM
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Unlike Ca3799's post above, I think this one is serious and not satire.

Missouri Republicans vote to stop issuing driver’s licenses over gun records conspiracy theory

Quote:
But lawmakers have recently become increasingly concerned that gun records would be shared with federal officials to create a gun registry that could lead to confiscations.

Melissa Wilson, wife of state Rep. Kenneth Wilson (R), told the committee earlier this month that she was certain that gun records had been shared with the federal government as a part of a United Nations initiative called Agenda 21, which some conservatives believe is a conspiracy to “transform America from the land of the free, to the land of the collective” through “a mind-control” tactic called the Delphi technique.
So, I guess everyone in Missouri will be breaking out the old horse and buggy :-)

Last edited by Enkel; 04-24-2013 at 06:29 PM.
  #2023  
Old 04-26-2013, 08:36 AM
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One for Kable:

So how's that vote against gun control working out for you?
Quote:
Republican Senator Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire faces a possible voter backlash along with critical ads from gun control advocates following her vote against President Barack Obama's bid to curb gun violence.

According to a survey by Public Policy Polling released Wednesday, Ayotte's approval rating stands at 44 percent, down 15 points since October when the organization last conducted a poll on her. The poll of 933 New Hampshire voters, from April 19 to April 21, had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.2 percent.

Fifty percent of those polled said Ayotte's vote against background checks legislation would make them less likely to support her for re-election. Seventy-five percent said they supported background checks.
  #2024  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:11 PM
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One for Kable:
Yeah right.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-won,32106/

You guys lost. We won. Have a nice day.
  #2025  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:13 PM
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And who says post-modernist irony is dead?
  #2026  
Old 04-28-2013, 03:00 PM
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It really is true; if you write something ironic on the interwebs, no matter how outrageously obvious, there's always a nut job who takes it seriously.
  #2027  
Old 04-28-2013, 03:06 PM
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You're kidding, right?
  #2028  
Old 04-28-2013, 10:53 PM
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It really is true; if you write something ironic on the interwebs, no matter how outrageously obvious, there's always a nut job who takes it seriously.
Hahaha, of course its satire you idiot. But you all lost, get it, you all are losers in this whole thing. Wayne and I are the winners, and if that makes you angry take a look in the mirror, that's the face of a loser.
  #2029  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:57 PM
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So the takeaway from this thread is that Kable doesn't know The Onion isn't true.
  #2030  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:41 AM
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So the takeaway from this thread is that Kable doesn't know The Onion isn't true.
Here's another one for you dipshit:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/oba...is-guns,30638/
  #2031  
Old 04-29-2013, 04:45 AM
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"This week's compilation includes: three police-involved accidents, two of which occurred during gun training classes; three "home invasion shootings"( i.e., when one Patriot elects to share a Liberty Projectile with a neighbor, via a Freedom Wall, Window, Floor or Ceiling); five accidents while cleaning loaded guns; three hunting accidents; one concealed carry ninja who shot himself taking his gun out of his pocket, and one who was shot by a child reaching into his pocket. And speaking of the kids, there were nine victims of GunFAIL this week, aged 10 months, 2, 3, 4, 10, 11 and 14. You may have noticed that that's not nine ages. It was a particularly rough week for the 10-year-olds, of which we lost two, and saw one wounded.

Stories of particular note this week include that of the second Carolinian to leave a gun behind in a New York hotel this month; a tee-ball rage shooting; the opening of turkey hunting season (resulting in the shooting of two turkey hunters and an undetermined number of turkeys), and; a potential Idiot Hall of Fame entry involving the Florida man (of course) who tried to convert his BB gun to .40-caliber using nothing but household tape and American Exceptionalism."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...95/-GunFAIL-XV
  #2032  
Old 04-29-2013, 04:49 AM
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This "special Ed" episode brought to you by GunFail Blog:

"A North Carolina man visiting the Sept. 11 memorial and discovering that firearms were not permitted, hastily stashed his gun (legally owned, though not permitted for New York) in the cushions of a seat in the lobby of a World Trade Center-area hotel. And left it there. The timing wasn't great, either. Apparently, it happened just minutes before the Boston Marathon bombing, so when it was found shortly thereafter, it set off a full-blown security panic. Returning later and finding the gun missing, he did not report it to police. Seems he thought "whoever found it, they would contact him and want a reward,” a relative told police. How they'd find him remains a mystery, but we'll count that as one vote in favor of a national registry of firearms owners. "
  #2033  
Old 04-29-2013, 04:54 AM
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This one was interesting, too:

An accidental shooting near a Whitesboro, Tx area gun class sends a fisherman to the hospital.

Grayson County deputies say a Sadler man in his 20's was hit in the thigh with a nine-millimeter round. He was fishing about 100 yards away from a gun class at the Whitesboro Rodeo Grounds around 2 p.m. on Saturday, Sheriff's Office Lt. Rickey Wheeler said. Deputies say the CHL class teacher is not state-certified and there was no berm or backstop to absorb the bullets. The bullet went through the man's body, missing his heart by a few inches. Instructor Ramsey tells News 12 he received certification from a 2-day NRA program back in March and has been teaching classes in Bridgeport and Whitesboro, but Lt. Wheeler says CHL instructors in Texas have to be certified by the state.
  #2034  
Old 04-29-2013, 05:54 AM
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You guys lost. We won. Have a nice day.
But I posted an anecdote! Under your method of arguing, that trumps every piece of evidence, no matter how substantial, that you've posted thus far.

Thus, I win.

Last edited by Gyrate; 04-29-2013 at 05:55 AM.
  #2035  
Old 04-29-2013, 06:42 AM
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Wayne and I are the winners...
That's what we want you to think.
  #2036  
Old 04-29-2013, 08:10 AM
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Hahaha, of course its satire you idiot. But you all lost, get it, you all are losers in this whole thing. Wayne and I are the winners, and if that makes you angry take a look in the mirror, that's the face of a loser.
What do you (and Wayne?) think you have won, and why do you think you have won it?
  #2037  
Old 04-29-2013, 09:45 AM
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This one was interesting, too:

An accidental shooting near a Whitesboro, Tx area gun class sends a fisherman to the hospital.

Grayson County deputies say a Sadler man in his 20's was hit in the thigh with a nine-millimeter round. He was fishing about 100 yards away from a gun class at the Whitesboro Rodeo Grounds around 2 p.m. on Saturday, Sheriff's Office Lt. Rickey Wheeler said. Deputies say the CHL class teacher is not state-certified and there was no berm or backstop to absorb the bullets. The bullet went through the man's body, missing his heart by a few inches. Instructor Ramsey tells News 12 he received certification from a 2-day NRA program back in March and has been teaching classes in Bridgeport and Whitesboro, but Lt. Wheeler says CHL instructors in Texas have to be certified by the state.
Hit in the thigh, but missed his heart by a few inches? Was he doubled over while he was fishing?
  #2038  
Old 04-29-2013, 09:49 AM
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Somehow, until I read it in the current issue of Rolling Stone, I had not heard anything about the Jordan Davis killing: http://atlantadailyworld.com/2013031...ures-911-calls

Apparently the killer, Dunn, pulls into a gas station so that his girlfriend can go buy some wine. At the station is a car with four black youth who are listening to their "thug music" too loud for Dunn's liking.

He orders them to lower the volume. One youth does; another (Jordan Davis) turns it back up. A verbal altercation ensues, followed by Dunn getting his handgun out of his glove compartment and firing between 8 and 13 shots at the car, including firing at them as they were trying to get away.

According to the police, Dunn's statement at the scene was (paraphrasing from my memory of the Rolling Stone article) something to the effect that "they refused to comply with my command to turn down the music. What else was I supposed to do?"

Subsequently, Dunn is claiming that he saw them start to pull a shotgun and that he feared they were advancing on him, and is invoking Stand Your Ground. No weapons of any kind have been found. Photos of the car seem completely inconsistent with his version, and the fact that they were driving away while being shot at also doesn't fit.

It's simply another case of a soft, doughy middle aged white guy feeling empowered by his firearm to try to intimidate someone else, and being a scared pussy when the intimidation is met with defiance.

I love how in his confession, he still invokes the quick-draw shootout fantasy that we've heard from Damuri Ajashi and others here: "Quicker than a flash, I had a round chambered in it and I shot." He fucking cannot help it.

By the way, Dunn did have a concealed carry permit. We know, of course, that people with concealed carry permits are eminently safe, even-headed, cool customers who are paragons of responsible gun ownership.
  #2039  
Old 04-29-2013, 09:51 AM
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You guys lost. We won. Have a nice day.
We had another poster around here who used to post "winning" each time he was soundly humiliated in a debate. Perhaps your next tactic should be to propose an experiment where you crouch down and attempt intercourse with a paper towel tube.

You are in good company.
  #2040  
Old 04-29-2013, 09:56 AM
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We know, of course, that people with concealed carry permits are eminently safe, even-headed, cool customers who are paragons of responsible gun ownership.
Right up until the the time they are not. Then he is a criminal. This is why ordinary citizens are always responsible and safe, and the only bad things that happen with guns are done by bad, bad criminals.

Rather brilliant reasoning, n'est pas?
  #2041  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:15 AM
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Right up until the the time they are not. Then he is a criminal. This is why ordinary citizens are always responsible and safe, and the only bad things that happen with guns are done by bad, bad criminals.

Rather brilliant reasoning, n'est pas?
Right, which is kinda the crux of the matter, no? So then the only measure that would really work is to take away guns from everyone, one I am not comfortable with.
  #2042  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:17 AM
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Right, which is kinda the crux of the matter, no? So then the only measure that would really work is to take away guns from everyone, one I am not comfortable with.
Well, it seems like somewhere between a nearly unlimited free-for-all access to firearms and taking them away from everyone is some kind of, whatchacallit, excluded middle?
  #2043  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:23 AM
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Right, which is kinda the crux of the matter, no? So then the only measure that would really work is to take away guns from everyone, one I am not comfortable with.
Not necessarily. What we need is a better filter. Perhaps make guns a little harder to get. Take an example of becoming a private pilot. It's available to anyone who completes an extensive training course. Not only does the training teach the person to be a good pilot, it filters out people who are not dedicated and meticulous enough to be a responsible pilot. This means that the people who get their pilot's license are the type of people who can fly responsibly.

Right now anyone without a criminal/mental background can get a gun. There's nothing to filter out the irresponsible people from getting guns.

Another thing might be to make irresponsible gun use another restriction of gun ownership like criminal/mental issues. This way gun owners will think twice before doing stupid things with their guns.
  #2044  
Old 04-29-2013, 11:15 AM
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Well, it seems like somewhere between a nearly unlimited free-for-all access to firearms and taking them away from everyone is some kind of, whatchacallit, excluded middle?
This.

Thank you for posting what I was thinking.
  #2045  
Old 04-29-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian View Post
Well, it seems like somewhere between a nearly unlimited free-for-all access to firearms and taking them away from everyone is some kind of, whatchacallit, excluded middle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmore View Post
Not necessarily. What we need is a better filter. Perhaps make guns a little harder to get. Take an example of becoming a private pilot. It's available to anyone who completes an extensive training course. Not only does the training teach the person to be a good pilot, it filters out people who are not dedicated and meticulous enough to be a responsible pilot. This means that the people who get their pilot's license are the type of people who can fly responsibly.

Right now anyone without a criminal/mental background can get a gun. There's nothing to filter out the irresponsible people from getting guns.

Another thing might be to make irresponsible gun use another restriction of gun ownership like criminal/mental issues. This way gun owners will think twice before doing stupid things with their guns.
No...I get that and I agree with it. I was replying to the assertion that an ordinary, level-headed CCW guy is not a criminal...until he is. There's really nothing to be done about that short of removing guns from everyone.
  #2046  
Old 04-29-2013, 11:34 AM
Hentor the Barbarian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
No...I get that and I agree with it. I was replying to the assertion that an ordinary, level-headed CCW guy is not a criminal...until he is. There's really nothing to be done about that short of removing guns from everyone.
In this case, perhaps we could have made use of some kind of prohibition for anyone who uses the term "thug music" or who buys wine from gas stations.

In general, anyone who is a doughy middle aged white guy should have to undergo extra scrutiny before being allowed a firearm.
  #2047  
Old 04-29-2013, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
No...I get that and I agree with it. I was replying to the assertion that an ordinary, level-headed CCW guy is not a criminal...until he is. There's really nothing to be done about that short of removing guns from everyone.
Right. If he doesn't have a gun, he can't use it. But there could be ways to get guns out of the hands of the subset people who cannot handle stressful situations in a calm manner.

For example, a guy who blows a gasket because someone cut him off in traffic might use his gun irresponsibly in similar situations. It would be good if there were some way to filter him out of gun ownership. Maybe part of the gun license class could involve how he responds to stressful situations.

Don't police go through something like that? I think they are trained on how to diffuse a stressful situation so that a gun is not necessary. It would be good if gun owners were required to go through a similar kind of training and have to meet some standard. That way the only people with guns are the people who can handle stressful situations in an appropriate manner. It wouldn't get rid of 100% of the problems, but it would reduce the number of people who are most likely to cause a problem.

Last edited by filmore; 04-29-2013 at 12:02 PM.
  #2048  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:54 PM
Ca3799 is offline
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PPP Is reporting that 5 Senators have taken quite a hit in the polls due to their voting against background checks. http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/p...Checks_429.pdf

That is the sound of Kable's "winning", I guess.
  #2049  
Old 04-29-2013, 01:03 PM
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When the people lead, the leaders will follow.
  #2050  
Old 04-29-2013, 01:07 PM
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Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-OK) says the fact that terrorists (and I presume bad guys of all flavors) can buy guns easily at gun shows is just the price we have to pay for freedom.

" INGRAHAM: What do you say to Joe Scarborough, all these other people who say, under your theory Senator Inhofe, a terrorist — someone in the country who wants to be a terrorist — nothing is stopping him from going into a gun show and getting a gun from a none (sic) licensed dealer….

INHOFE: Well, the terrorist, they are a part of, not by definition part of a criminal, because they are terrorists, but I would say the same thing is true for terrorists that is for criminals. And that is, if someone in the United States of America or any other place too the criminal element or the terrorist element they will be able to get those. The problem I have is that any restrictions, such as the ones we voted against last week, would have the effect of reducing the number of firearms nationwide and would disproportionately reduce them for law abiding citizens, that’s what I would say to Joe Scarborough.
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