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  #651  
Old 11-08-2017, 04:43 PM
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Hey, you discuss what interests you, I discuss what interests me.

Apparently what interests you is discussing far-out partisan crap with others of your ilk who likewise lap up uncritically anything which feeds your fantasies. But everyone has different tastes. Gotta appreciate that.
"Page comes off pretty well IMHO - at least as far as I've read" - F-P


But yes, please go on about our lapping....
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Old 11-08-2017, 04:48 PM
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GrandWino, I appreciate the effort and the list. There are many material facts contained there that, if corroborated (some already are, some we suspect already are) strengthens Mueller's investigation immeasurably. I suspect he's already got a lot of this buttoned up, but one more clueless, inadvertent witness won't hurt.

In other news, I think this is great and I admire this judge more every day: Judge Issues Gag Order in Manafort/Gates Case - Reuters

I notice she allows no cameras in the courtroom, either. Smart, smart judge.
  #653  
Old 11-08-2017, 07:28 PM
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Remember that admitted liar, George Papadopoulos, who has been characterized as a nobody by the Trump Administration? Well the BBC is reporting on a previously undisclosed meeting between him and the British Foreign Office for a "working level" meeting. The story was first reported by Scott Stedman, a UC Irvine ('18) Political Science Major, in the Medium.

BBC story:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41892373

Scott Stedman story:
https://medium.com/@ScottMStedman/ex...6-367ef543df18
  #654  
Old 11-08-2017, 08:06 PM
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  #655  
Old 11-08-2017, 11:51 PM
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Hey, you discuss what interests you, I discuss what interests me.

Apparently what interests you is discussing far-out partisan crap with others of your ilk who likewise lap up uncritically anything which feeds your fantasies. But everyone has different tastes. Gotta appreciate that.
How would Carter Page's full testimony be partisan, other than partisan towards Carter Page?
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:05 AM
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How would Carter Page's full testimony be partisan, other than partisan towards Carter Page?
Anything that pounds another nail in Dear Leader's coffin is, by definition, partisan crap, according to F-P
  #657  
Old 11-09-2017, 02:18 AM
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How relevant are these Congressional investigations anyway? Does anyone believe anything is going to happen to Trump & Friends because of them?

The only investigation that matters is Mueller, as far as I can tell. What is Carter Page telling him?
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:43 AM
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Remember that admitted liar, George Papadopoulos, who has been characterized as a nobody by the Trump Administration? Well the BBC is reporting on a previously undisclosed meeting between him and the British Foreign Office for a "working level" meeting. The story was first reported by Scott Stedman, a UC Irvine ('18) Political Science Major, in the Medium.
Medium isn't a the, FWIW. It's just a blogging platform.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:30 AM
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How would Carter Page's full testimony be partisan, other than partisan towards Carter Page?
I didn't say "Carter Page's full testimony" was partisan. I was referring to Seth Abramson's list of "28 bombshells" found within that testimony (and in general, anything else put out by Seth Abramson).
  #660  
Old 11-09-2017, 09:30 AM
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I didn't say "Carter Page's full testimony" was partisan. I was referring to Seth Abramson's list of "28 bombshells" found within that testimony (and in general, anything else put out by Seth Abramson).
I'm reasonably sure that the 28 statements, as gathered in the one party, take less than five minutes to read. It's far quicker to read them and then check the document for confirmation than it is to read any reasonable chunk of the testimony.

The nice thing with the partisan content is that it tells you everything that might be interesting.
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Old 11-09-2017, 09:41 AM
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I'm reasonably sure that the 28 statements, as gathered in the one party, take less than five minutes to read. It's far quicker to read them and then check the document for confirmation than it is to read any reasonable chunk of the testimony.
That's not so, you would need to read the entire document for each item to search out where it might be.

But beyond that, Seth Abramson is not claiming that those 28 items are explicitly stated in the testimony. It's his far-fetched and highly partisan interpretation of the testimony. This is very obvious to someone who read much of the testimony and SA's claims, and can see how he's taking these things from the testimony. There might be some things that would take longer to track down, but I've seen enough.
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Old 11-09-2017, 10:21 AM
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Medium isn't a the, FWIW. It's just a blogging platform.
I first learned about it on the Facebooks.
  #663  
Old 11-09-2017, 10:59 AM
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That's not so, you would need to read the entire document for each item to search out where it might be.

But beyond that, Seth Abramson is not claiming that those 28 items are explicitly stated in the testimony. It's his far-fetched and highly partisan interpretation of the testimony. This is very obvious to someone who read much of the testimony and SA's claims, and can see how he's taking these things from the testimony. There might be some things that would take longer to track down, but I've seen enough.
As much as I am anti Trump and would love to see him go down, I agree with this. A lot of SAs claims here and otherwise are speculative stretches.
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:13 AM
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That may be but F-P is the one that claimed Page came off well in the testimony and that nothing of import came out of it. I think we can agree that of those 28 points - at least one or a few are accurate and important. Such as Hope Hicks being looped in on things. Also, pretty clear that Page did anything but come off well as F-P has stated.
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:21 AM
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Just to note again that I said Page came off well in the specific context of whether he appeared to be lying or not.

Of course, if you start off with the firm conviction that he must had colluded with Russians, then his denials are going to be obvious lies. But if you start with an open mind on that subject, and view it in the context of just this testimony, he comes off well, in that he appears to be struggling to be as accurate and precise as possible.

Whether he's also in over his head in general, and a bit too focused on his own persecution at the hands of the government and the "dodgy dossier" is another story.
  #666  
Old 11-09-2017, 11:27 AM
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But her emails! Her emails!
No, no! It's the uranium! Hillary gave all of our uranium to the Russians and we can never make another bomb again and Hillary took the money to start up a sex slave ring under a pizzeria.
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:38 PM
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  #668  
Old 11-09-2017, 01:22 PM
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OK, then, we stuff that Papa John's pustule into a rocket....
  #669  
Old 11-09-2017, 01:23 PM
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On Mars! Shouldn't she be growing jobs here on Earth?
  #670  
Old 11-09-2017, 07:14 PM
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After Barack Obama was elected, there were some who wanted him to prosecute members of the Bush administration, particularly Dick Cheney for his role in fabricating or manipulating intelligence to lay the case for war. I was not among them. I generally believed in the notion that regardless of how tempting it might be, even though it might be technically actionable, the legal process shouldn't be applied directly to the political process unless there's just a damn good reason.

Now I can honestly say that if the Democrats take the White House and Congress, I think they should lock people up left and right. I don't think they should lean on the DoJ but the public should demand an investigation into every possible illegal act that the Trump administration has committed and just throw them in jail. The Republican party just needs to die. It is a sick, diseased, disgusting party that appeals to lowlifes. That is all.
  #671  
Old 11-09-2017, 07:49 PM
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After Barack Obama was elected, there were some who wanted him to prosecute members of the Bush administration, particularly Dick Cheney for his role in fabricating or manipulating intelligence to lay the case for war. I was not among them. I generally believed in the notion that regardless of how tempting it might be, even though it might be technically actionable, the legal process shouldn't be applied directly to the political process unless there's just a damn good reason.

Now I can honestly say that if the Democrats take the White House and Congress, I think they should lock people up left and right. I don't think they should lean on the DoJ but the public should demand an investigation into every possible illegal act that the Trump administration has committed and just throw them in jail. The Republican party just needs to die. It is a sick, diseased, disgusting party that appeals to lowlifes. That is all.
I agree.

The only good thing to come out of this nightmarish debacle is the unavoidable conclusion that the Republican Party is rotten to its core. There is no atrocity they won't either commit or ignore in their quest to bilk the hoi polloi out of their hard earned nickels and dimes, or to protect their wealthy benefactors.

The Republican Party of today is the most corrupt, craven, greedy uncaring collection of toadies I've ever known, in a long line of corrupt, craven, greedy uncaring collection of Republican toadies.

I don't see how anyone can ignore the facts being revealed daily that rub our noses in this conclusion. Apparently 30% can, though.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:54 PM
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I agree.

The only good thing to come out of this nightmarish debacle is the unavoidable conclusion that the Republican Party is rotten to its core. There is no atrocity they won't either commit or ignore in their quest to bilk the hoi polloi out of their hard earned nickels and dimes, or to protect their wealthy benefactors.

The Republican Party of today is the most corrupt, craven, greedy uncaring collection of toadies I've ever known, in a long line of corrupt, craven, greedy uncaring collection of Republican toadies.

I don't see how anyone can ignore the facts being revealed daily that rub our noses in this conclusion. Apparently 30% can, though.
I never thought I would say this, in America, but I want Republicans in this administration and their willing accomplices in Congress to go to prison. I will be angry if the Democrats retake power and this does not happen. This country is polluted with Republican filth. There needs to be a cleansing in this country.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:07 PM
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I agree.

The only good thing to come out of this nightmarish debacle is the unavoidable conclusion that the Republican Party is rotten to its core. There is no atrocity they won't either commit or ignore in their quest to bilk the hoi polloi out of their hard earned nickels and dimes, or to protect their wealthy benefactors.

The Republican Party of today is the most corrupt, craven, greedy uncaring collection of toadies I've ever known, in a long line of corrupt, craven, greedy uncaring collection of Republican toadies.

I don't see how anyone can ignore the facts being revealed daily that rub our noses in this conclusion. Apparently 30% can, though.
Sadly, this is very, very true. Some members of the Republican Party - not just random dudes, but Republican Party Chairmen, would literally RATHER SUPPORT AND VOTE FOR A CHILD RAPIST, than have a Democrat in office:

Quote:
after a long pause, Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he'd vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl. "I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."
Quote:
"Yeah!" Covington County GOP Chairman William Blocker tells me he'd consider voting Moore even if hard proof of sexual abuse emerged. "There is NO option to support to support Doug Jones, the Democratic nominee. When you do that, you are supporting the entire Democrat party."
  #674  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:08 PM
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I want them identified, prosecuted and convicted strictly by the rule of law, but yes -- I don't want to live through another Nixon pardon. I understood Ford's reasoning, but I didn't agree with it. There must be consequences for selling out your country to a hostile foreign power in exchange for loot.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:15 PM
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It's one of the main reasons I support Biden for President. He would be able to quickly identify and rectify the many, many abominations committed by this "administration." With a willing Congress, he could put things to rights faster than anyone else could. There is already so much to do just to get back to where we were a year ago.
  #676  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:42 PM
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There are no more good republicans. They're just a bunch of goddamned animals.
  #677  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:54 PM
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Agree with all recent posts. This shit needs to stop, and a good way to get some peoples attention is to jail these bastards.

A blast from the past, and a little humor -
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  #678  
Old 11-10-2017, 06:29 AM
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Alright, maybe I went over the top last night. There are probably at least some good Republicans, but they're increasingly hard to find. Where's the decency? Where's the courage? It's not that Democrats don't have pervs in their midst - I'm sure they do. But I don't see them trying to defend this sort of behavior.

In any case, I know this is about the Mueller case - sorry for the thread jack.
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Old 11-10-2017, 07:07 AM
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Flynn is fucked.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller...key-1510309982

He also delayed attacks on Raqqa and Mosul at the urging of his Turkish backers. He better hope he has a ton of incriminating evidence to hand over.
  #680  
Old 11-10-2017, 07:25 AM
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Flynn is fucked.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller...key-1510309982

He also delayed attacks on Raqqa and Mosul at the urging of his Turkish backers. He better hope he has a ton of incriminating evidence to hand over.
Pay wall. But I saw this in other outlets

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/mue...rkey-for-cash/

Yeah Raw Story can be a little sensationalist, but The Hill spams up my p.c. with ads. I prefer Politico. Anyway, the core of the case is, there might have been a plot to kidnap the Turkish cleric Gulen and get him into Turkey in exchange for $1.5 million.

Last edited by asahi; 11-10-2017 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 11-10-2017, 07:48 AM
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$15M, not $1.5.

And I don't think it's a "might have been." I think it's pretty well established, former head of the CIA said it did and backed out because he thought it was illegal.
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Old 11-10-2017, 08:12 AM
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Not only that, but if Flynn was continuing to act as a foreign agent on 1-20-2017 and beyond, instant felony.

https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/st...93959715098625
  #683  
Old 11-10-2017, 08:39 AM
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Flynn is fucked.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller...key-1510309982

He also delayed attacks on Raqqa and Mosul at the urging of his Turkish backers. He better hope he has a ton of incriminating evidence to hand over.
"Under the alleged proposal, Mr. Flynn and his son..." (bolding mine)

This was the playbook for Mueller during the Enron investigation as well. Pride is certainly something that might keep a man like Flynn from flipping, but if he is willing to let his son go down with him without trying to save him (despite what an unrepentant shit that son appears to be as well) then he is truly a monster.
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Old 11-10-2017, 08:49 AM
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"Under the alleged proposal, Mr. Flynn and his son..." (bolding mine)

This was the playbook for Mueller during the Enron investigation as well. Pride is certainly something that might keep a man like Flynn from flipping, but if he is willing to let his son go down with him without trying to save him (despite what an unrepentant shit that son appears to be as well) then he is truly a monster.
I can just see Sr and Jr on the phone with each other, saying "stay strong, Semper Fi (or whatever Army guys say to each other (did Jr serve?)), they can't hurt us if we stick together" while chatting with Mueller on another line.
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Old 11-10-2017, 08:56 AM
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Alright, maybe I went over the top last night. There are probably at least some good Republicans, but they're increasingly hard to find. Where's the decency? Where's the courage? It's not that Democrats don't have pervs in their midst - I'm sure they do. But I don't see them trying to defend this sort of behavior.
What Would It Take? Labor Stands by Mayor Ed Murray Despite Sexual Abuse Allegations

Seattle councilmember says she has faith in Mayor Ed Murray
  #686  
Old 11-10-2017, 09:33 AM
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How did the Ed Murray story end? Oh yeah, Ed Murray resigned when it turned out he didn't have support.
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:44 AM
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Pride is certainly something that might keep a man like Flynn from flipping, but if he is willing to let his son go down with him without trying to save him (despite what an unrepentant shit that son appears to be as well) then he is truly a monster.
Flynn already offered to flip for the Senate Intelligence Committee months ago in exchange for immunity. (They politely declined.) Who knows what he's been telling Mueller, if anything.
  #688  
Old 11-10-2017, 09:50 AM
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Who knows what he's been telling Mueller, if anything.
My guess would be: All of it.
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:55 AM
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Why are you posting this here? What is your point?
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Old 11-10-2017, 10:03 AM
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How did the Ed Murray story end? Oh yeah, Ed Murray resigned when it turned out he didn't have support.
Those cites speak for themselves. He had support. Just not enough, especially after more allegations came out plus confirmation from Oregon CPS.
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Why are you posting this here? What is your point?
Read the post I was responding to.

On another note, it seems in the end that the info being offered to DTJ in that infamous meeting wasn't from the Russian government after all, let alone from any hacked emails as many here and elsewhere have assumed. It was op-research dug up by that very same Fusion GPS firm which produced the Trump dossier.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN1D937W

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Old 11-10-2017, 10:17 AM
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On another note, it seems in the end that the info being offered to DTJ in that infamous meeting wasn't from the Russian government after all, let alone from any hacked emails as many here and elsewhere have assumed. It was op-research dug up by that very same Fusion GPS firm which produced the Trump dossier.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN1D937W
It is interesting - I saw that this morning - but also not particularly meaningful.

I'm reasonably sure that the way the law works, if you go meet some Russian Mafia in a back alley to buy cocaine and C4, it doesn't matter if the Russians given you powdered sugar and modeling clay, so far as your culpability is concerned. So long as I can demonstrate your intent to commit a criminal act, the actual success of that act is immaterial.

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Old 11-10-2017, 10:28 AM
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Those cites speak for themselves. He had support. Just not enough, especially after more allegations came out plus confirmation from Oregon CPS.

Read the post I was responding to.
So basically a left-wing media outlet, taking the allegations seriously, asked various unions if they would withdraw support from Murray and they said "It needs to be more than accusation" and "until something is proven with some substance—we don’t vote on accusations". Then once "more allegations came out plus confirmation from Oregon CPS" - i.e. there was more substance and corroboration to the accusations - the unions reconsidered their support. Is that what you're saying happened?

And that's somehow comparable to the right-wing media saying "It's okay if Moore molested underaged teenagers because they were totally into it"?

Last edited by Gyrate; 11-10-2017 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Harris? Who's Harris?
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Old 11-10-2017, 10:32 AM
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I don't see how anyone can ignore the facts being revealed daily that rub our noses in this conclusion. Apparently 30% can, though.
they are getting their "facts" from fox and right wing radio - that's how. they really don't know what is happening.

  #694  
Old 11-10-2017, 10:33 AM
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I should also note that when I say, "it's interesting", I do mean that it is interesting.

I'm still trying to decide the implications of Russia using Fusion GPS at the same time that Fusion was researching Russia. I hope to pontificate on the subject at some point later in the day.

For the moment, though, it is - as said - irrelevant to the question of the Trump party's culpability. There seems to be every indication from the information we know they knew from Page and Papadop, the timing of Trump's speeches about emails, and Junior's response to Goldy, that they thought they were going to receive illegally procured materials from the Russian government.
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Old 11-10-2017, 10:46 AM
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It is interesting - I saw that this morning - but also not particularly meaningful.

I'm reasonably sure that the way the law works, if you go meet some Russian Mafia in a back alley to buy cocaine and C4, it doesn't matter if the Russians given you powdered sugar and modeling clay, so far as your culpability is concerned. So long as I can demonstrate your intent to commit a criminal act, the actual success of that act is immaterial.
In your hypothetical, it's known that the guy went to "meet some Russian Mafia in a back alley to buy cocaine and C4". The point here is that no one knows from what original source DTJ was expecting the info to have come from. It's all speculation. (For my part, I speculated that since the damaging info was supposedly Russian funding, it's most likely he thought they had it from Russian connections who were thereby knowledgeable.)

There's very little to go by from what's known. But if in fact it turns out that it was Fusion research, that makes it less likely that he was told it was from hacked emails or similar.

It's more analogous to a case where you see a guy sneaking furtively into a back alley so you suspect that he's probably going to buy some cocaine and C4 from the Russian mafia. If it turns out that he was really just hooking up with his mistress, you don't get to claim "hey, he probably thought it was cocaine and C4" as if the probability has not changed.
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I'm still trying to decide the implications of Russia using Fusion GPS at the same time that Fusion was researching Russia. I hope to pontificate on the subject at some point later in the day.
FWIW, RW CT on the subject has long been that the entire dossier possibly amounts to Russian disinformation (much of it comes from sources close to and within the Russian government and intelligence services). From that perspective, it's completely consistent.

My inclination though would be that Fusion were freelancers and anyone could use them for their purposes.

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  #696  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:32 AM
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It's more analogous to a case where you see a guy sneaking furtively into a back alley so you suspect that he's probably going to buy some cocaine and C4 from the Russian mafia. If it turns out that he was really just hooking up with his mistress, you don't get to claim "hey, he probably thought it was cocaine and C4" as if the probability has not changed.
Let's name our guy Donny.

Donny has a friend, Poppy. Poppy knows a guy in the Russian mafia and emails Donnie saying that the mafia has some coke and C4 that they'd like to give him.

A few weeks later, another friend of Donny, Carty, actually goes to Russia and, while there, talks with the exchequer of the Russian mafia. He sends back an email saying, "They're looking forward to a positive exchange in the future!"

A few weeks after that, someone from the Russian Mafia emails Donny and says, "We got your shit. Want to meet?"

Now, based on all of this, what would you say that it's likely that Donny is hoping to get from the meeting? Is the fact that Poppy is saying, "No no, that's not what was happening." And Carty is saying, "No no, that's not what was happening." And Donny is saying, "No no, that's not what was happening." Is that a particularly good defense against emails and plane tickets?

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-10-2017 at 11:34 AM.
  #697  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:37 AM
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I would say it depends on how close Poppy, Donny and Carty are, how many emails they're getting, whether the emails were direct communications with each other or just CCs, and also whether there's any other context to these various messages (e.g. whether they have anything else going on that the messages might refer to or the sole point of contact is this one issue).

[I can probably nitpick other aspects of your analogy, but the above should suffice.]
  #698  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
FWIW, RW CT
English, mother fucker.

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on the subject has long been that the entire dossier possibly amounts to Russian disinformation (much of it comes from sources close to and within the Russian government and intelligence services). From that perspective, it's completely consistent.
Certainly possible. The main argument against is simply that Russia had little reason to believe that Trump could win, at the point in time. It's far more likely that they simply wanted to use him as a pro-Russia mouthpiece, so they were flirting with him and his crew, knowing that he would want to say positive things about them if he thought they might give him something against his opponent.

With 20/20 hindsight, sure, we could say that this was some elaborate ruse to screw the incoming President and make him completely useless. But then why not play the same games with the Clinton campaign, seeing as her team was much more likely to win? (The closest any poll came to predicting a Trump win was still 2:1 against.)

Veselnitskaya's current descriptions to the press of the meeting are, almost certainly, disinformation.

I'd say that it's more likely that they used Fusion because they're a for-hire intelligence operation that does legitimate spy work, and Russia likes to avoid using people who are direct employees of the Russian government. And, just in case the Trump campaign wins, they're giving him American produced intel, so the law on providing foreign things of value to a campaign might not come into effect.

It could just be happenstance that they used Fusion. Or that Fusion is known to Russia, for the same reason that Fusion had contacts in Russia. It's their specialty.

I don't think either you nor I really has enough information about the world of opposition research companies to know how many there are, how much they specialize, etc. to really be able to make a guess at the odds that Russia should land on the same company at the same time.
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Old 11-10-2017, 11:54 AM
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I should also note that when I say, "it's interesting", I do mean that it is interesting.

I'm still trying to decide the implications of Russia using Fusion GPS at the same time that Fusion was researching Russia. I hope to pontificate on the subject at some point later in the day.

For the moment, though, it is - as said - irrelevant to the question of the Trump party's culpability. There seems to be every indication from the information we know they knew from Page and Papadop, the timing of Trump's speeches about emails, and Junior's response to Goldy, that they thought they were going to receive illegally procured materials from the Russian government.
Agree, it is irrelevant, and intent is everything. You have to closely read the story to understand the paper trail of what is being "offered" by Fusion GPS and to whom, in order to understand the important distinctions.

Veselnitskaya received an incidental memo prepared by Fusion GPS, which had been hired to conduct legal research on Bill Browder, by Baker and Hostetler law firm. The firm represented Russian businessman Denis Katsyv, who was engaged in disputes with Browder and U.S. prosecutors in the USA.

The important point here is that Fusion was not working on behalf of or hired by the Russian government. They were engaged for a specific purpose by an American law firm (Baker and Hostetler) to conduct legal research on Bill Browder, an American citizen, in an American case before an American court. Veselnitskaya was given the memo as part of the information Fusion learned in the course of this investigation. Representatives of Fusion GPS made it clear they had no idea that any part of their research gleaned from the unrelated American investigation had been used by Russians as part of their "offer" to the Trump campaign.

So there is no parity whatsoever between these two events.

Of far more importance, the issue isn't how the information is obtained. It's whether or not it is true. The Clinton campaign didn't hire Fusion GPS and say, "Go find dirt on Donald Trump and his campaign that shows he was in league with the Russian government so we can use that dirt to win the election!" Rather, they reviewed what had already been revealed by the Republican-funded portion of the dossier (different to what is referenced in the Reuters article) and said, "This is disturbing. Can you find out more?" Christopher Steele himself -- as a highly-respected former MI6 agent who had worked closely with the US Government over his career -- did that in early August 2016, presumably with the agreement of the Clinton campaign, because he was so unsettled by what he had found. He thought our intelligence agencies might... you know... want to know how involved in our election the Russians were.

Lastly, what is done with the information when obtained is the most important distinction. The Clinton campaign learned what they learned -- and didn't use it in any way against Trump. They understood it was potential criminal activity, and that was not their wheelhouse. Trump's campaign learned what they learned -- and immediately used everything they obtained, legally or otherwise, to help themselves win the election. Worse, in exchange for this, they promised to lift the sanctions against Russia that Putin wanted more than anything else.

Quote:
Conspiracy 18 U.S.C. 371 - U.S. Code: If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Two or more persons: We can certainly agree there are more than two persons involved in this potential conspiracy;

Conspire to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States: An offense such as to steal an election, or defraud the citizens of the United States out of a legitimate election process;

And one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy: Like maybe offer to release a bunch of illegally-obtained emails of one's opponent in that election, in exchange for the lifting or lessening of sanctions against a particular adversarial government, maybe by making sure such an objective is included in the official Republican Party platform.

Despite his self-pronounced claims to the contrary, F-P's very fine brain seems incapable of grasping these important distinctions.

Go ahead and nit-pick it, F-P. Be sure to include some evidence that the Steele dossier "possibly amounts to Russian disinformation." Just like you did(n't) before.

Last edited by Aspenglow; 11-10-2017 at 11:57 AM.
  #700  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
I would say it depends on how close Poppy, Donny and Carty are, how many emails they're getting, whether the emails were direct communications with each other or just CCs, and also whether there's any other context to these various messages (e.g. whether they have anything else going on that the messages might refer to or the sole point of contact is this one issue).

[I can probably nitpick other aspects of your analogy, but the above should suffice.]
Certainly. In the case of everyday joe buddies with no normal reason to go to Russia, as they are in the analogy, it would be rather silly to believe that it isn't a straightforward deal for coke and C4.

The Trump campaign's explanation that everything was hectic and that these were people doing things on their own and that no one put 2 and 2 together enough to spot the issue is all, on the face of it, a pretty reasonable defense, particularly when you look at Carter Page and realize that there are few people in the world who wouldn't realize was a nutball he is.

The problems are:

1) Trump, Junior, Flynn, Clovis, etc. all seem like the sort of people who wouldn't realize that Page is a nutball and would take his PHD and assertions about his business ties seriously.
2) Trump's attempts to shut down the investigation.
3) Papadop's meetings with Cyprus, Greece, the UK, Israel, etc. He certainly seems to have been being taken seriously.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-10-2017 at 12:00 PM.
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