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  #51  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Xema View Post
Perhaps the simplest demonstration of the failure of all flat-earth models is a video of the night sky looking south in the southern hemisphere (see 1:32 in this video). You clearly see all the stars rotating around the southern celestial pole - which flat-earth models say is impossible.
Oh yeah?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWsvHOyHMc8
  #52  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:58 PM
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The circumference of the earth was estimated in about 240 BC by Eratosthenes. That pretty much implies that the earth is spheroid.
Nope. I can get the same results with a flat Earth and a Sun at an altitude of 40722 stadia (around 5000 miles)
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  #53  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Alpha Twit View Post
Lunar eclipses

As the Earth passes between the Sun and Moon, it always produces a circular shadow. It's not possible for a flat, disk like Earth to always produce such a shadow. Only a nearly spherical world can do that.
"Always" is problematic. No one has been around to check the "always" results, and it is possible for a flat round disc to repeatedly cast a round shadow.
  #54  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:15 AM
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So in the standard flat-earth model, the earth isn't flat but instead has a mound peaking at the North pole, to separate night from day? And to reach the edge of the Earth you just sail to Antarctica and start walking "South"?

OK. Of course when you start calculating the actual curvature parameters of this "mound", e.g. by sailing completely around the Southern Ocean to measure the circumference there, you'll discover ... the shape is a sphere!
  #55  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
ftg, those shapes don't cast circular shadows. Here's a picture of some.

Bullitt, want to lay odds that the argument, in full, consists of "the details of the eclipse prove that the Earth is flat!", with no actual calculations?
Just like their other arguments. At least they’re consistent. And consistently wrong.
  #56  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:26 AM
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"Always" is problematic. No one has been around to check the "always" results, and it is possible for a flat round disc to repeatedly cast a round shadow.
Do you have any documented observations of a non-round Earth shadow falling across the moon? We do have centuries of well documented observations of round Earth shadows creating lunar eclipses on predictable schedules from hundreds of sources. I am content with my use of "always" in this context. If you want to present theories regarding what actually has been reliably and repeatedly observed, wonderful. Bring it on.
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  #57  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DPRK View Post
If you are going to rely on geometric arguments, no need to navigate all the way around the Earth. Just mark off a reasonably big triangle and sum up its angles....
If things like facts and reason were going to work, these people wouldn't be flat earthers in the first place. They'll just invent some nonsense to explain any discrepancies in their geometry and keep on believing.

That's why you need something like taking a trip around the world. It has to be something so overwhelmingly obvious it shakes their faith and forces them to start thinking.
  #58  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:31 AM
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I wonder how they’d explain that, a trip around the world?
  #59  
Old 10-16-2018, 01:22 AM
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Nah, it's all due to refraction.
Refraction explains everything.
No, as someone that watches way too many flat Urf videos on the YouTubes, it's perspective!

CMC fnord!
  #60  
Old 10-16-2018, 01:45 AM
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While in the Navy, I spent a decent amount of time on a ship at sea. The phenomenon of seeing a distant ship "hull down" (i.e. with only its superstructure visible above the horizon), then watching the whole ship become visible as it gets closer is something encountered dozens of times a day. As distance increases, the opposite effect is noted, until all that's visible is the very highest point on the ship, then nothing.

As you'd expect, lookouts stationed well above the water routinely see further. From a lower place, you'll reliably see less of a distant ship (or island, or building on the shore, or anything else).
You don't even need a ship; a tall building with a decent overlook of flatlands or of the sea is enough. Both the Mediterranean coasts and the flatlands of Castille can provide a few such; there has to be others available in the American flatlands.
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  #61  
Old 10-16-2018, 03:25 AM
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Nope. I can get the same results with a flat Earth and a Sun at an altitude of 40722 stadia (around 5000 miles)
Which would be a great line of discussion with them because they'd then have to explain how gravity and light works in their model because it surely doesn't fit with any other empirical evidence out there.
There is also the minor problem a sun at an orbit of 5000 miles must be tiny, certainly not massive enough to sustain nuclear fusion of the observed levels.

But those are all rational questions to ask and seeing as we aren't dealing with rational people such lines of inquiry are doomed to fall on deaf ears.
  #62  
Old 10-16-2018, 03:54 AM
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If we can’t prove definitively that the world isn’t flat, well then, maybe it is?
  #63  
Old 10-16-2018, 07:32 AM
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How about a gyroscope?

Start at any point on the earth with a powered gyroscope mounted on a 3-axis gimbal. Orient it so that it aligns with the local gravity vector, and then wait. If the flat-earth model is correct - regardless of whether it's mounded, or truly flat as a pancake - then the gyroscope will forever remain in this orientation. If the spherical-earth model is correct - specifically, the part of the spherical-earth model that says the spherical earth spins on its axis - then the gyroscope will deviate from its original orientation, with its own axis tracing out a cone over the course of any given 24-hour period. The half-angle of that cone will vary from zero (if the gyro is at the earth's north or south pole) to 90 degrees (if the gyro is at the earth's equator).

After 24 hours, the gyro will return almost to its original orientation with respect to the local gravity vector. It will be off by a bit, because the earth will have moved about 1/365 of the way along its orbit around the sun; 24 hours brings you back to facing the sun again, which is not the same as completing one full spin in an absolute sense. If you wait 365 days, then the gyroscope will finish tracing out another cone, returning to align almost perfectly with the local gravity vector, just like it did when you started this whole test. The flat-earth model won't have a good explanation for this.

I'm probably not accounting for all of the various celestial movements - a real astrophysicist can probably nail down exactly what to expect - but you can see the general idea, i.e. a gimbaled gyroscope provides an unbiased reference vector that always points in the same direction and can provide objective proof that the earth itself is in motion, contrary to the flat-earth model.
  #64  
Old 10-16-2018, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bizerta
I was once on a cruise ship at sea on a pristine cloudless evening. As I stood on the deck, I watched the sun disappear below the horizon. As soon as the sun vanished, I ran up a flight to the next deck and witnessed the sun setting again about 10 seconds later.
There are lots of way to demonstrate a spheroid Earth but this is not one of them. As the sun disappears past the edge of a flat Earth, naturally taking a higher vantage point would allow you to see the sun again.
I retract this after reading subsequent posts and links describing how flat-earthers think that the sun revolves above the Earth disk like a flashlight throwing a narrow beam on the parts where it's day.
  #65  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:07 AM
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Watch this video from Neil deGrasse Tyson.

I consider NDT to be a pompous ass but he communicates complex science issues well and he can be a most useful mammal.
Plus he sucks on Match Game!
  #66  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:09 AM
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I wonder how they’d explain that, a trip around the world?
Turns. It's easy enough to say you ended up back where you started because you made a circular trip around a flat world as it is to say it was a straight trip around a sphere. Since facts and logic don't matter to them, "easy to say" is all it takes.
  #67  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:00 AM
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I retract this after reading subsequent posts and links describing how flat-earthers think that the sun revolves above the Earth disk like a flashlight throwing a narrow beam on the parts where it's day.
This model of the sun is rather problematic, though, given their geographic model. The shape of the illuminated portion of the world at any given time is like a big slice of pie. At equinox, for example, the sun is directly over the equator, and it somehow casts a pointy lobe of light up towards the North Pole that gets ever narrower, and at the same time a giant fan of light towards the Great Ice Wall that gets ever wider.

One thing I've wondered is how flat earthers think satellite TV works. I mean, anyone who's ever put up a satellite dish can tell you that aiming them is finicky as hell. And basic geometric principles tell you that they really are pointed at a fixed spot far above the surface of the earth. Something in that direction is sending a signal. If it's not a geostationary satellite in orbit over a globular earth, how does it stay in that fixed position?

Actually, the apparent direction of all objects in space is a real problem for the flat earth model. For example, if you take the angular distance of the sun above the horizon at noon at two different locations, the difference in that angle is compatible with the sun being far away and the earth being a globe, or the sun being near and the earth being flat. But as soon as you add a third point the flat earth model falls apart because the geometry doesn't work. And this is especially the case if you start looking at east-west variations - if you calculate the apparent difference in direction of the sun between Cape Horn and Lima, you'll get a very different height of the sun over the pancake earth than you will if you calculate based on the difference between Cape Horn and Auckland. This is complicated geometry and requires precise timed observations, however, so I expect it wouldn't make a dent in a flat earther's beliefs.
  #68  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:15 AM
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If flat-Earthers won't be persuaded by a simple photo showing them that the Earth is round, then all of these other complex mathematical proofs are rather unnecessary.

It's like trying to prove that a giraffe has four legs. If showing the skeptic a photo of a 4-legged giraffe won't persuade him, then what else is needed?
  #69  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:35 AM
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One thing I've wondered is how flat earthers think satellite TV works.
It works by pushing the buttons on the remote, and the show comes up on the TV. And you can't explain that if the Earth is a sphere. Therefore, the Earth must be flat!

Don't bother trying to explain it as if the Earth is a sphere. I just said you can't do that, so you're wasting your time.
  #70  
Old 10-16-2018, 04:26 PM
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It works by pushing the buttons on the remote, and the show comes up on the TV. And you can't explain that if the Earth is a sphere. Therefore, the Earth must be flat!

Don't bother trying to explain it as if the Earth is a sphere. I just said you can't do that, so you're wasting your time.
They don't even believe in satellites.
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  #71  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:13 PM
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They don't even believe in satellites.
The problem will soon go away as all Flat Earthers, not using GPS since it can't work without satellites, get lost forever.
  #72  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:54 PM
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One thing I've wondered is how flat earthers think satellite TV works. I mean, anyone who's ever put up a satellite dish can tell you that aiming them is finicky as hell. And basic geometric principles tell you that they really are pointed at a fixed spot far above the surface of the earth.
If I believed in the flat earth, I would probably say the sky (which is a solid dome) reflects the radio signal from a ground-based transmitter.
  #73  
Old 10-17-2018, 07:05 AM
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If we can’t prove definitively that the world isn’t flat, well then, maybe it is?
We can prove that the earth is round, not flat (and have done so, abundantly). The problem is not a lack of proof, it is a reflexive dismissal of any proof, either by claiming it to be measurement error, or by showing that the flat-earth model can also account for those observations (without going into the details of the exact values/calculations, which would unequivocally show the flat-earth model to be incorrect), or by claiming fraud/conspiracy.

It's a bit like the speed of light being constant no matter what, with all else bending to conform to that constant: flat-earthers hold that the earth is flat, and that this is an incontrovertible truth, and all else must be made to somehow conform to that constant. The existence of satellites, the Apollo missions (and any "photographs" that come from it), the durations of long-haul international flights (which fit a sphere but not a flat earth), the measured details of the apparent motion of the sun and moon as seen from multiple locations on the earth's surface (which can't be duplicated by solar/lunar discs circulating above a flat earth), transantarctic flights - all can be dismissed as fraud/conspiracy, error, or unverified by someone who hasn't personally experienced/measured them and never will.
  #74  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:57 AM
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Really, the only "proof" you need is a cell phone with GPS. If he is reasonably intelligent, ask him how the GPS timing would work for anything but a spherical Earth.
This doesn't prove anything if you believe that the people who operate the GPS network are part of the conspiracy. There were ground-based navigation systems before GPS, like Loran-C. They weren't as accurate as GPS, but it's not easy to explain or demonstrate why GPS is inherently more accurate.
  #75  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:26 PM
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For those with an idle curiosity of the flat earthers, I'd recommend just click on the comments button on any NASA Facebook post. They are legion. You'll get a good idea of their main talking points ("The horizon is always eye level!", "Water always finds a level", "Where are all the satellites?!", and "water doesn't stick to a spinning ball!"), as well as see several truly committed people who dedicate far too much time trying to engage them with actual facts.
  #76  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:09 PM
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Turns. It's easy enough to say you ended up back where you started because you made a circular trip around a flat world as it is to say it was a straight trip around a sphere. Since facts and logic don't matter to them, "easy to say" is all it takes.
They have been struggling with this. How can you get on an airplane and fly in a straight line from Santiago Chile to Sydney Australia without passing over California, as the FECT map would suggest? In order to deal with this, they have been investigating some sort of discontinuity theory, akin to the Earth itself being populated with wormhole-like distortions that make curved lines seem straight. I am at a loss to find a link for this, though.
  #77  
Old 10-17-2018, 03:27 PM
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I wonder how they’d explain that, a trip around the world?
A map of Magellan's 1521 route on a flat Earth.
  #78  
Old 10-17-2018, 03:41 PM
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Hmm, how about compasses? There is a magnetic north, and all compasses point to that, but how does magnetic south work?
  #79  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:02 PM
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Hmm, how about compasses? There is a magnetic north, and all compasses point to that, but how does magnetic south work?
The magnetic field from a simple dipole magnet looks like this. If a vertical magnet was deep under the center (north pole) of a flat earth, all compasses on earth would point to it.

Last edited by scr4; 10-17-2018 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 10-17-2018, 05:00 PM
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The magnetic field from a simple dipole magnet looks like this. If a vertical magnet was deep under the center (north pole) of a flat earth, all compasses on earth would point to it.
Imagine an array of bar magnets arranged in a circle under the flat earth: the magnetic-north of each bar magnet points toward the north pole, and the magnetic-south of each bar magnet points toward the antarctic ice-wall (maybe I've got that backwards?). Consistent with our observations of compass behavior, the magnetic field lines would be parallel to the surface of the flat-earth, and would form radials from the north pole (at the center of the flat-earth) to the antarctic ice wall.

This would not explain magnetic dip, particularly the fact that dip reaches 90 at the magnetic south pole (see map at link). But the common flat-earther won't accept any measurements of this that he does not make for himself.

Last edited by Machine Elf; 10-17-2018 at 05:01 PM.
  #81  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:14 PM
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This would not explain magnetic dip, particularly the fact that dip reaches 90 at the magnetic south pole (see map at link). But the common flat-earther won't accept any measurements of this that he does not make for himself.
More importantly, there is the magnetic declination, described in a link from your link. Explaining how that would make sense on a flat earth is stunningly difficult. The vertical bar magnet idea fails rather spectacularly.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:45 AM
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I agree that the premise should be flipped:

The OP shouldn't have to prove the Earth is round. This is well documented, our technological society functions well with this assumption.

No, the burden of proof is on the flat-Earthers. Let them try to convince you. If they can't, they'll have to find a way to do it. Just ask simple questions requiring simple answers...
- Where is the center of the earth?
- How can you fly from Japan to California without overflying Europe or the Atlantic?
- How does GPS work, in your opinion?
- If gravity doesn't exist, then explain how we're not falling off the Earth?

Etc.

What is NOT convincing is to come up with more and more complex, convoluted explanations for what should be simple. If that's the direction they're heading, you can cut them off, saying "sorry, I don't buy it, there's a simpler explanation already." Let them go into a tizzy, you don't have to.

Last edited by Limmin; 10-18-2018 at 07:47 AM.
  #83  
Old 10-18-2018, 07:51 AM
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- Where is the center of the earth?
The north pole.

Quote:
- How can you fly from Japan to California without overflying Europe or the Atlantic?
Because the earth looks like this.

Quote:
- How does GPS work, in your opinion?
Like Loran-C.

Quote:
- If gravity doesn't exist, then explain how we're not falling off the Earth?
Gravity does exist. It pulls down.

(Just playing devil's advocate here...)
  #84  
Old 10-18-2018, 08:36 AM
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If the Earth is flat, why are the other planets spherical? Are we special?
  #85  
Old 10-18-2018, 08:46 AM
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- How can you fly from Japan to California without overflying Europe or the Atlantic?
Because the earth looks like this.
In the flat earth, a flight from Sydney to Buenes Aires would be optimized to fly over the North Pole, but this doesn't happen. (Playing Devil's prosecutor.) Are all the airlines in on the conspiracy?
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:49 AM
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Nope. I can get the same results with a flat Earth and a Sun at an altitude of 40722 stadia (around 5000 miles)
Then your problem is the sun's size in relation to an observer's position.

An observer A directly under the sun at noon, say, can measure the width of the sun in degrees with a solar telescope. At the same time, on some other part of the planet, another observer B can also measure the width of the sun in degrees. Their results will differ. It will differ for observers C, D, E, F, et al, as the sun is close enough the angles are easily measurable.

In addition, if this particular flat earther asserts that the sun isn't a sphere, then observer B will not see a round sun, but an ellipse.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:00 AM
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If you really want to know what they believe, the Oh no, Ross and Carrie! podcast did interviews of Mark Sargent and Jeran Campanella. They also participated in some meetings and experiments with flat earthers - just search their web site for "flat earth."

I think Mark Sargent seemed to imply that the sky is a giant artificial display that can show the stars, Moon, etc in any way they want us to see them. I remember Ross asking if it was like a lenticular display, showing different things depending on view angle, and he basically said yes. With this explanation they can dismiss pretty much any argument based on observing the sky.
Oh, so the whole world is just a big version of "The Truman show"? Well, I never knew that, how stupid i must be.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:02 AM
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My girlfriend's brother works with a guy who is a flat-earther. So much so that his daughter caused a stir in school by confronting her teacher who was showing a spherical earth.
This guy has been dying to "discuss" his view with me - with the challenge for me to prove him wrong.
I mentioned him before, but check out CoolHardLogic's video series on flattards. He very simply demonstrates the inanity of a flat earth position, and it's presented in an easy to follow format, and some of the stuff you can do yourself (though it would involve some travel, but hey, no one said proving a global conspiracy wouldn't involve a road trip).
  #89  
Old 10-18-2018, 09:59 AM
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In the flat earth, a flight from Sydney to Buenes Aires would be optimized to fly over the North Pole, but this doesn't happen. (Playing Devil's prosecutor.) Are all the airlines in on the conspiracy?
If you ask about this, it appears to get ignored. See discussion at this link, scroll down to reply #20, in which a participant posts screenshots of the Sydney/Johannesburg flight track from www.flightradar24.com, illustrating a great-circle route (with distance and time) that agrees with what one would expect from a spherical earth.

Nobody responds.

If a flat-earther were to respond, my guess is that yes, they'd claim conspiracy. See my post upthread: to flat-earthers, flat earth is an incontrovertible universal constant, and all observations that conflict with it are either flawed or fraud.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:24 AM
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The north pole.


Because the earth looks like this.



Like Loran-C.



Gravity does exist. It pulls down.

(Just playing devil's advocate here...)
Exactly! And you can point out a counterexample or fallacy with each one, which the flat-earthers need to explain.

Again, they need to come up with convincing proof, if they want to be believed "scientifically."
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:08 PM
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I read somewhere that gravity is an illusion, that the pizza/blister Earth is accelerating upward and when you fall, it is just the Earth catching up to you. Into what it is accelerating is unclear, because my impression is that FECTs believe that the pizza Earth and sparkly sky dome is the whole of reality: there is no unthinkably vast universe out there.

Which I would find an incredibly depressing notion. The idea that we are an imperceptible mote in the immenseness of reality, amounting to nothing, bothers some people, but the apposite idea seems worse, to me.
  #92  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:56 PM
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Again, they need to come up with convincing proof, if they want to be believed "scientifically."
Mainly they want to feel important, by convincing themselves that they know something we don't. They aren't really looking to convince the rest of us.
  #93  
Old 10-18-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Machine Elf View Post
If you ask about this, it appears to get ignored. See discussion at this link, scroll down to reply #20, in which a participant posts screenshots of the Sydney/Johannesburg flight track from www.flightradar24.com, illustrating a great-circle route (with distance and time) that agrees with what one would expect from a spherical earth.

Nobody responds.

If a flat-earther were to respond, my guess is that yes, they'd claim conspiracy. See my post upthread: to flat-earthers, flat earth is an incontrovertible universal constant, and all observations that conflict with it are either flawed or fraud.
Right, they'd probably just say "I've never been on that flight, have you?! How do you know that tracking information is real??"
  #94  
Old 10-18-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Limmin View Post
- If gravity doesn't exist, then explain how we're not falling off the Earth?
Old comedy routine—

"Dear Mr. Answer Man: If the world is round, why don't people on the other side fall off?"
"Your question betrays a common misconception. People are falling off all the time."
  #95  
Old 10-18-2018, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by coffeecat View Post
Old comedy routine—

"Dear Mr. Answer Man: If the world is round, why don't people on the other side fall off?"
"Your question betrays a common misconception. People are falling off all the time."
One thing I liked about the Discworld books was the adventure at the ocean along the edge of the world (can't remember the book, one of the early ones with the Traveller?) where the guy built the machine to travel over the edge to see what lay beyond, and the residents on the edge had rope lines across the lip to catch debris for useful items.
  #96  
Old 10-18-2018, 02:54 PM
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Or if you were on that flight, well, you weren't the pilot, were you?
  #97  
Old 10-18-2018, 03:25 PM
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Relevant to flat earthers' thought processes and the reason nothing you could ever do will convince them the earth is spherical:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
  #98  
Old 10-19-2018, 10:38 AM
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The ability of flat-earthers to hand-wave away those pesky facts is impressive. Just last night I was watching YouTube video where the channel-owner read an e-mail from a guy who claimed to have visited the Antarctic Wall. Of course, all verifiable information had been elided for "privacy reasons."
  #99  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:15 PM
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I just watched about two thirds of that video, and it leaves me with an enormous question. The narrative states that the reporter is under threat from foreign governments, so he has to keep a low profile.

So, if the world were in fact flat, and all these globalist conspirators are working together (a dubious notion in the first place, based on the inability of large international groups to actually collaborate) to dupe us into believing in a ball Earth, what exactly do the globalists gain by perpetrating the fiction?
  #100  
Old 10-19-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by eschereal View Post
So, if the world were in fact flat, and all these globalist conspirators are working together (a dubious notion in the first place, based on the inability of large international groups to actually collaborate) to dupe us into believing in a ball Earth, what exactly do the globalists gain by perpetrating the fiction?
The reason I've heard from various flat-earthers is basically the one given here:
Quote:
Perhaps the most ridiculous came from Mark Sargent, a famous flat-earther who came to prominence with a series of YouTube videos in 2015 when he was asked why the scientific community won't come clean about the Earth being flat.

Sargent told the man who posed the question that governments and scientists cannot admit the "truth" because society as we know it would collapse.

"Because by the time they figured it out ... the industrialized world --- the cement was already cast," said Sargent, according to the Edmonton Journal piece.

Sargent continued by stating: "If some scientist revealed it tomorrow on CNN, or whatever, and it was broadcast that the Earth is not (round) --- there's potential for some real shock waves, some real upheaval. The first one is academic --- literally in every university in every country, astrophysics and astronomy would have to be shut down overnight. Those would not reopen."
https://www.brainjet.com/world/24562...flat-earthers/
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