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  #1551  
Old 10-02-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
No way of knowing, at the moment, what this means but the State Department Inspector General wants to meet with Congress in a hurry - likely related to their document request on Ukraine:
There's already been time to load the shredder.
  #1552  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:04 PM
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"Confirmed: A source familiar tells me the State Department IG briefing on the Hill is about retaliation against State Department officials who are trying to cooperate with House Democrats."

https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1179452198054440960

First rule of holes...?
  #1553  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
The call was “perfect” in the sense that there was no static on the line, it didn’t drop due to a poor connection, nobody missed a crucial statement because the other guy was going through a tunnel, that sort of thing.
He had the leader of a country, bend over backwards to kiss his ass, and agree to everything he said and everything he asked for. From his point of view it can't get any more prefect than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Stamos'_Left_Ear View Post
Impeachment and removal are about removing a corrupt president.
Refusing to hand over evidence is further evidence of corruption.
Refusing to hand over evidence is further evidence of law-breaking.

Hand-wringing and crying: "OMG Trump & Pals are stonewalling Congress! They will to destroy democracy!" helps Trump because it:
��creates panic,
��undermines confidence, and
��encourages cynicism
which happen to be the same goals of Russian Active Measures.

Instead . . .

Instead, we should be saying, "HA! See how guilty they are? Why are they refusing to testify? Why are they hiding evidence? Because they are GUILTY."

This will help get public opinion behind impeachment and removal.

Also, it's the truth.

https://twitter.com/Teri_Kanefield/s...02007396720640
Or in the words of our dear leader.

Quote:
"You see the mob takes the Fifth," Trump said during a campaign stop in Iowa late last September. "If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?"

Last edited by Buck Godot; 10-02-2019 at 01:08 PM.
  #1554  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
No way of knowing, at the moment, what this means but the State Department Inspector General wants to meet with Congress in a hurry - likely related to their document request on Ukraine:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...-hill-briefing
Minor nitpick, but he's meeting with the staffers and not Congress itself. What he intends to do is open to conjecture. Is he planning on bearing documents to give to the staff? Giving them a list of people who would be able to and are willing to provide information and/or testify?

This is going so fast that it's hard to keep up.
  #1555  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:16 PM
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First rule of holes...?
See, my first thought was holey shit.
  #1556  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:17 PM
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No way of knowing, at the moment, what this means but the State Department Inspector General wants to meet with Congress in a hurry - likely related to their document request on Ukraine:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...-hill-briefing
And the Trump rage tweeting, accusing him of being a traitor and a spy will begin in 3...2...1....
  #1557  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:20 PM
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He, and his courtiers and propagandists, spun the Mueller report, which showed the same thing, the same way. Why are you surprised?
It was a bit easier to spin a document that nobody read than to refute the clear language in the transcript. Either he's stupid enough not to recognize that it's very damning evidence or he thinks we're all stupid enough to take his word that it proves he's innocent. It's like "They say I robbed a bank? Here's a picture of me holding a gun to a teller's head. Fake news!"
  #1558  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:58 PM
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"Shields and Brooks on the politics of impeachment."
That Trump's phone call to Ukraine is clearly criminal is not in dispute, but beginning at 5:30 they discuss whether impeachment is a mistake. David Brooks (R) thinks so — it's the fight Trump wants, it will distract from Democratic debate on the issues, and the Senate will never convict. Mark Shields (D) applauds Pelosi's statesmanship over two decades, thinks impeachment is a moral necessity and, unlike Brooks(R), thinks the Republicans may not be "irredeemable" — as though twenty R Senators might admit that their leader is a criminal.

Shields obviously has the moral high ground, but I'm afraid Brooks is right. Amusing that the Democrat commentator thinks twenty Republican Senators just might put the country and the rule of law ahead of politics, while the Republican commentator is certain they won't!
  #1559  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:59 PM
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turnp thinks that his words may be given meaning by him, and only by him, even after a conversation has occurred and it's in the past. If someone attributes meaning to his words and he doesn't like it or it reveals unwanted parts of himself, it's very clear he is convinced he may change or interpret his own words in any way he wants. He has to believe that's real or why would he do it in public filmed situations?
  #1560  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:21 PM
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If someone attributes meaning to his words and he doesn't like it or it reveals unwanted parts of himself, it's very clear he is convinced he may change or interpret his own words in any way he wants. He has to believe that's real or why would he do it in public filmed situations?
It seemed to me that his responses to the question posed to him about Biden, during this latest press conference with the president of Finland, lend quite a bit of credence to that notion. He refused to address the "investigate the junior Biden for me" part of the call, and if anyone a) didn't read the memo themselves, and b) were at all inclined to believe anything he said, they might actually believe the whole thing was a non-event.

Last edited by Elusive; 10-02-2019 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Sloppiness
  #1561  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:21 PM
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So #TrumpMeltdown is trending on Twitter as he acts increasingly unhinged even by his standards in a presser alongside Finnish President Sauli Niinistö,

Best was when a Finnish reporter asked Niinistö what favors Trump asked for!
  #1562  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post

"Shields and Brooks on the politics of impeachment."
That Trump's phone call to Ukraine is clearly criminal is not in dispute, but beginning at 5:30 they discuss whether impeachment is a mistake. David Brooks (R) thinks so
Brooks concedes that Trump acted criminally but still suggests that nothing be done to address it. And he is supposedly one of the smarter, ethical Republicans. Says a lot about the GOP these days.
  #1563  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:25 PM
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NPR reporter Franco Ordonez tweets that Trump said today that Pence was on the call with Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/FrancoOrdonez/st...205641220?s=19

I always assumed Pence was as dirty as the rest of the administration. If the Ukraine call is what takes them down, and Pence goes down with them... Woo Hoo!

President Pelosi!

Let's say someone smarter than Trump sees that Pence is going down, and Trump convinces Pence to resign. Can Trump then appoint a replacement so the Republicans hold the White House when Trump is evicted?
  #1564  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:27 PM
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He has corrected his tweet, saying he misheard President Mumbles.
  #1565  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
NPR reporter Franco Ordonez tweets that Trump said today that Pence was on the call with Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/FrancoOrdonez/st...205641220?s=19

I always assumed Pence was as dirty as the rest of the administration. If the Ukraine call is what takes them down, and Pence goes down with them... Woo Hoo!

President Pelosi!

Let's say someone smarter than Trump sees that Pence is going down, and Trump convinces Pence to resign. Can Trump then appoint a replacement so the Republicans hold the White House when Trump is evicted?
At the moment, it sounds like Trump is working to make sure that everyone he depends on is going down if he goes down. He wants to make sure that they're just as strongly on the defense as he is.
  #1566  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:42 PM
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It was a bit easier to spin a document that nobody read than to refute the clear language in the transcript. Either he's stupid enough not to recognize that it's very damning evidence or he thinks we're all stupid enough to take his word that it proves he's innocent. It's like "They say I robbed a bank? Here's a picture of me holding a gun to a teller's head. Fake news!"
Trump can absolutely do anything he wants, and lie about it seconds after he did it. And his Trumpsters will believe anything... ANYthing.

6 in 10 Republicans believe that Trump did not discuss Biden in his phone call to the Ukraine President. Even though the transcript RELEASED BY TRUMP HIMSELF shows that he did exactly that.

If Trump declared at 12:00 noon that it was nighttime and dark out, 6/10 Republican voters would immediately go home (with their car lights on), fumble for their house keys in the darkness of noon, and go straight to bed.
  #1567  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:47 PM
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This may prove to be useful later on today:

18 U.S.C. § 1512 - U.S. Code

(b)  Whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to--

(1)  influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding;

(2)  cause or induce any person to--

(A)  withhold testimony, or withhold a record, document, or other object, from an official proceeding;

(B)  alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal an object with intent to impair the object's integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding;

(C)  evade legal process summoning that person to appear as a witness, or to produce a record, document, or other object, in an official proceeding;  or

(D)  be absent from an official proceeding to which such person has been summoned by legal process;  or

(3)  hinder, delay, or prevent the communication to a law enforcement officer or judge of the United States of information relating to the commission or possible commission of a Federal offense or a violation of conditions of probation   1 supervised release,,  2 parole, or release pending judicial proceedings;

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
  #1568  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:50 PM
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He has corrected his tweet, saying he misheard President Mumbles.
Well, poop.
  #1569  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:58 PM
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I’m about 99% sure that the OLC, which is apparently run by a newly appointed partisan hack, has ginned up some documentation that they think will kill the investigation.
No, it's not someone from the OLC. The person I was referring to is Steve Linick as referred to by Euphonious Polemic in his Post #1542. Mr. Linick is the IG for the State Department, completely independent, appointed by President Obama in 2012 or 2013, if I recall. He was highly critical of Hillary Clinton's handling of her email server. Those who know him view him as a total non-partisan straight shooter who takes his work very seriously.

It's Mr. Linick who is meeting with the Congressional committees this afternoon. With documents.

I am hopeful.

Last edited by Aspenglow; 10-02-2019 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Horrible sentence structure.
  #1570  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
NPR reporter Franco Ordonez tweets that Trump said today that Pence was on the call with Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/FrancoOrdonez/st...205641220?s=19

I always assumed Pence was as dirty as the rest of the administration. If the Ukraine call is what takes them down, and Pence goes down with them... Woo Hoo!

President Pelosi!

Let's say someone smarter than Trump sees that Pence is going down, and Trump convinces Pence to resign. Can Trump then appoint a replacement so the Republicans hold the White House when Trump is evicted?
No he can't....

"the president may appoint a vice president to fill a vacancy in that office, subject to approval by both houses of Congress."
  #1571  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
No way of knowing, at the moment, what this means but the State Department Inspector General wants to meet with Congress in a hurry - likely related to their document request on Ukraine:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...-hill-briefing
Any word on what time this is happening?
  #1572  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:33 PM
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It's already over.
  #1573  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:34 PM
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Any word on what time this is happening?
Right now.

"Linick declined to comment to CNN as he entered the briefing just before 3 p.m. ET on Wednesday."

~Max

ETA: He's currently meeting with Congressional legal staffers, not Congress itself.

Last edited by Max S.; 10-02-2019 at 03:38 PM.
  #1574  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:37 PM
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Rep Jamie Raskin moments ago:


"An organized effort to smear government employees who were getting in the way of President Trump"

"An attempt to create a narrative to justify what the president did"

"You will recognize names in these documents"


Yep. Witness tampering. Find out who did it, investigate and prosecute them.
  #1575  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:37 PM
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Any word on what time this is happening?
Probably already occurred.

Either Trump will tweet something to attack the information, before the information is public, or Schiff will leak something to WaPo based on it if there's something glaringly apparent among it. It might take a few days.
  #1576  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:40 PM
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It could be a binder of Breitbart articles!
  #1577  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:43 PM
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Based on Max S.'s link, it looks like a central result of the IG move might be to supply the House with documents, just previous to interviewing people in the State Department.

Whether they have time to go through the documents or not, between today and tomorrow, the people who are testifying will know that some amount of material has been handed over and that their story needs to match whatever is in the documentary evidence or else they'll be wrung up for perjury.

Given 24 hours to prepare and, probably, uncertain about what was handed over - I expect to hear a lot of appeals to the 5th Amendment tomorrow.
  #1578  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:45 PM
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Interesting. So your position is that the IG is supplying unknown documents in order to force people to tell the truth or 5th Amendment their way out of this.

Very cagey, if true.
  #1579  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:49 PM
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Interesting. So your position is that the IG is supplying unknown documents in order to force people to tell the truth or 5th Amendment their way out of this.

Very cagey, if true.
I'm not sure how that's cagey. I mean, the simple way out of perjury is always to tell the truth. If the IG has made that more appealing, is that cagey?
  #1580  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:49 PM
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However....

https://twitter.com/MZanona/status/1...262373382?s=20

Quote:
Rep. @jamie_raskin (D-MD) is showing off a packet of documents that the State IG just gave over to Congress.

Raskin says it's a bunch of propaganda & conspiracy theories about some of the State officials that Dems wanna talk to... apparently it had been given to Pompeo.

It's unclear where the documents came from, though Raskin said some of the folders appear to come from the Trump hotel.

"We don't know where it came from... the whole thing looks rather amateurish to me," he says.

"It does relate to efforts to... smear a number of employees who were getting in the way of the president," Raskin says of the documents.

It's also really unclear why the State Department deemed this as an "urgent" matter. Raskin himself seemed to suggest it wasn't very urgent.
Curiouser and curiouser...
  #1581  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:50 PM
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I'm not sure how that's cagey. I mean, the simple way out of perjury is always to tell the truth. If the IG has made that more appealing, is that cagey?
If the IG is forcing the issue knowing there are people wavering, yes, cagey. Cagey enough.

Anyway, if what I quoted above, from a journalist on the scene, is true, then never mind.
  #1582  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:53 PM
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Interesting. So your position is that the IG is supplying unknown documents in order to force people to tell the truth or 5th Amendment their way out of this.

Very cagey, if true.
It's not a position, it's a hypothetical that matches the information that we have been given - presuming that information to be accurate.

I doubt that the IG is doing it for that express reason (if so). More likely, he caught wind that something bad was going to happen to the materials, so he decided to act.

Obviously, the documents were requested for just such a use and whatever "bad thing" that was ordered would have been to try and prevent those documents from being available to Congress. But it's the timing of the "bad thing" that prompted the IG to act, not political maneuvering. (Or, that would be my expectation.)

Last edited by Sage Rat; 10-02-2019 at 03:53 PM.
  #1583  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:56 PM
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"It does relate to efforts to... smear a number of employees who were getting in the way of the president," Raskin says of the documents.
I can see why it's urgent. A bunch of bullshit, sent to Pompeo from "someone" at the Trump hotel, and it's a bunch of crap intended to smear and intimidate witnesses.

It's witness tampering, and someone needs to investigate pronto to find out who is attempting to do this.
  #1584  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:56 PM
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A Finnish reporter asked the president of Finland "What kind of favors has Mr. Trump asked from you?"

https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1...26autosize%3D1
  #1585  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:57 PM
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"We don't know where it came from... the whole thing looks rather amateurish to me," he says."

Oh that's got team Trump all over it.
  #1586  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:58 PM
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Anyway, if what I quoted above, from a journalist on the scene, is true, then never mind.
Hypotheticals can be shortlived.
  #1587  
Old 10-02-2019, 04:00 PM
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"We don't know where it came from... the whole thing looks rather amateurish to me," he says."

Oh that's got team Trump all over it.
Yep. Investigate. Find out who sent the bullshit. Charge them. Trial. Jail time.
  #1588  
Old 10-02-2019, 04:00 PM
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This IG report is turning into the smocking gun.

(Sorry. Not.)
  #1589  
Old 10-02-2019, 04:20 PM
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"We don't know where it came from... the whole thing looks rather amateurish to me," he says."

Oh that's got team Trump all over it.
I was thinking that it smelled like a Jacob Wohl joint.
  #1590  
Old 10-02-2019, 04:24 PM
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Yeah, good point. We should try to narrow this down. Was there any Sharpie?
  #1591  
Old 10-02-2019, 04:28 PM
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Wait... another tweet.... ugh, might go to bed, let y'all tell me what happened:

https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/...563986944?s=20

(Congressional Reporter for Politico)

"Dem source says the WH “sent an envelope to Sec. Pompeo ... The envelope contained a bunch of TRUMP HOTEL folders. Those folders contained notes from interviews that took place at Rudy Giuliani’s NYC office with various Ukrainians about debunked conspiracies related to Ukraine.”"

Last edited by JohnT; 10-02-2019 at 04:29 PM.
  #1592  
Old 10-02-2019, 04:33 PM
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No he can't....

"the president may appoint a vice president to fill a vacancy in that office, subject to approval by both houses of Congress."
Ah, thanks!
  #1593  
Old 10-02-2019, 05:10 PM
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Looks like these documents were intended to smear former ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch, just before she testifies to congress.

This is called witness tampering, and is illegal.

Find out who sent these documents, investigate them, have a trial and jail them for 20 years.
  #1594  
Old 10-02-2019, 05:12 PM
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He has corrected his tweet, saying he misheard President Mumbles.
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
Well, poop.
However, WaPo is reporting that Pence was "involved" in the effort to pressure Ukraine, and one of his top advisers was on the 7/25 call. Pence "could have" had the transcript "within hours". Pence traveled to Warsaw to meet Zelensky on September 1. His aides say that he either hadn't read or didnt fully register the call before his trip.

I haven't read the article, which is paywalled, but a WaPo reporter tweeted about it here: https://twitter.com/JoyceWhiteVance/...572058112?s=19

What do you think President Pelosi's first executive order will be?
  #1595  
Old 10-02-2019, 05:16 PM
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Some background on Marie Yovanovitch that is useful:

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/01/76617...dor-to-ukraine
  #1596  
Old 10-02-2019, 06:22 PM
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Looks like these documents were intended to smear former ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch, just before she testifies to congress.

This is called witness tampering, and is illegal.

Find out who sent these documents, investigate them, have a trial and jail them for 20 years.
Trump made a rather clumsy threat about Yovanovitch, in his call to Zelinsky:

Quote:
...And Trump, in the reconstructed record of the call with Zelensky that the White House released last week, made plain his own animosity.

“The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news,” Trump told Zelensky, who took office in May. “And the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news, so I just wanted to let you know that.”

Vaguely but ominously, Trump added: “She’s going to go through some things.”
https://www.latimes.com/politics/sto...chment-inquiry


Now we can speculate that the "things" were whatever smears Team Trump had cooked up to reveal in the Trump Hotel doc-package.
  #1597  
Old 10-02-2019, 06:49 PM
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"Shields and Brooks on the politics of impeachment."
That Trump's phone call to Ukraine is clearly criminal is not in dispute, but beginning at 5:30 they discuss whether impeachment is a mistake. David Brooks (R) thinks so — it's the fight Trump wants, it will distract from Democratic debate on the issues, and the Senate will never convict. Mark Shields (D) applauds Pelosi's statesmanship over two decades, thinks impeachment is a moral necessity and, unlike Brooks(R), thinks the Republicans may not be "irredeemable" — as though twenty R Senators might admit that their leader is a criminal.

Shields obviously has the moral high ground, but I'm afraid Brooks is right. Amusing that the Democrat commentator thinks twenty Republican Senators just might put the country and the rule of law ahead of politics, while the Republican commentator is certain they won't!
Well, the Republican is 100% right: the Republican Senators won't put the country or rule-of-law ahead of politics.

But if the politics change, they will vote to convict.

It comes down to that. Some combination of poll numbers combined with major-donor messaging, that signals to Republican Senators 'I'll make out better if Trump is removed than if he stays'...that's what would do it.

Today's Dow drop* is one of those factors that if continued, could make the difference. And yes, it's awful to be rooting for the Dow to drop---but much worse than that awaits the world if Mr. Lawless remains in power.

*Just under 500 points:https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EDJI/
  #1598  
Old 10-02-2019, 07:20 PM
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Jesus. Local wingnut Chris Berg, who comes on after the CBS Evening News here, intensely grilled ND senator Kevin Cramer on why the Senate isn’t going hard after “crooked Joe Biden”.
  #1599  
Old 10-02-2019, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post

Let's say someone smarter than Trump sees that Pence is going down, and Trump convinces Pence to resign. Can Trump then appoint a replacement so the Republicans hold the White House when Trump is evicted?
Actually, the answer to your question is YES. Trump can't appoint his own Presidential replacement, but he could appoint the person he wants to replace himself (Trump) as VP if Pence resigns, knowing that if he, Trump, also resigns, Pence's replacement would then become Trump's replacement, keeping the White House GOP until the 2020 election. Of course, whoever Trump would pick as Pence's replacement would have to be confirmed by the (GOP-majority) Senate. And this scenario has happened before.

In October, 1973, Richard Nixon's VP, Spiro Agnew, resigned after pleading nolo contendere to charges of tax fraud and corruption when back Agnew had been governor of Maryland. Nixon appointed Gerald Ford as his new VP. The Senate confirmed Ford. The following August, Nixon resigned, and Ford became President and then pardoned Nixon. Ford then appointed Nelson Rockefeller his VP, and the Senate confirmed. From then until Jimmy Carter's inauguration in 1977, the President of the United States had never appeared on a ballot as a nominee for US President/Vice-President.

And in fact, this would be a more likely scenario than Trump and the GOP allowing Pelosi to assume the Oval Office as successor.
  #1600  
Old 10-02-2019, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Looks like these documents were intended to smear former ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch, just before she testifies to congress.

This is called witness tampering, and is illegal.

Find out who sent these documents, investigate them, have a trial and jail them for 20 years.
Rudy admitted to a reporter that it was him. No cite right now (crappy Tapatalk app); saw a Twitter screenshot on Hardball this evening.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
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Last edited by mjmlabs; 10-02-2019 at 07:58 PM.
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