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Old 06-14-2018, 05:54 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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"It's a common courtesy when a military official from another government salutes, that you return"

I had to cut the quote short; it wouldn't fit in the allotted character limit. Cite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Huckabee Sanders
It’s a common courtesy when a military official from another government salutes, that you return that.
Is it? According to whom? Since when?

Last edited by Bone; 06-18-2018 at 09:51 AM. Reason: update apostrophe in title to render on main page
  #2  
Old 06-14-2018, 05:58 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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It's contrary to American military training to salute while in civilian clothes (though many presidents have ignored this). In uniform, I'd never salute a foreign officer unless they were working with us in a joint exercise or an exchange program. But no one should kid themselves that Trump has the slightest idea about real standards of behavior in the military. He saluted the NK'n general because he's impulsive and acts without thinking.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-14-2018 at 05:59 PM.
  #3  
Old 06-14-2018, 05:58 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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I don't know if there's any rule, but if you are saluted and you don't return it, isn't that a pretty clear insult?

ETA: Apparently not, iiandyiiii explained it.

Last edited by DavidwithanR; 06-14-2018 at 06:00 PM.
  #4  
Old 06-14-2018, 06:10 PM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
It's contrary to American military training to salute while in civilian clothes (though many presidents have ignored this). In uniform, I'd never salute a foreign officer unless they were working with us in a joint exercise or an exchange program. But no one should kid themselves that Trump has the slightest idea about real standards of behavior in the military. He saluted the NK'n general because he's impulsive and acts without thinking.

I ran across this just a couple of days ago.
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:14 PM
steronz steronz is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
It's contrary to American military training to salute while in civilian clothes (though many presidents have ignored this).
I think it's safe to say that rules for the president are pretty much up to the president, but it's common for presidents to return salutes. Obviously they have to be in civilian clothes to do this.

That said, while there are military rules for when to salute, there's absolutely no guidance on when not to salute. To whit, you might get laughed at or worse for saluting another enlisted member, but there's nothing that says you can't. In uniform or otherwise. You can salute a trash can if you want. It's not a sacred hand gesture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
In uniform, I'd never salute a foreign officer unless they were working with us in a joint exercise or an exchange program.
IIRC you were Navy so maybe your rules were different, but per AFI 34-1201, there's no caveat about the foreign officer being in a joint exercise or exchange program. If you're in uniform and you see an officer, you salute. However...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
But no one should kid themselves that Trump has the slightest idea about real standards of behavior in the military. He saluted the NK'n general because he's impulsive and acts without thinking.
There are *only* two reasons this whole kerfluffle is in the news. One, because the right lost their shit constantly over a bunch of piddly things Obama did, and the left now wants to point out conservative hypocrisy. And two, because the AFI I referenced above specifies that foreign offers requiring a salute must be from friendly foreign nations. So either Trump is making a broad announcement that NK is now a friendly nation, or he just reflexively saluted, but really, who cares?
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:43 PM
Sunny Daze Sunny Daze is offline
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The best thing about the picture is Kim's face. He's got this "Holy shit. Trump saluted my general" look going on.
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:49 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Trump knows they have nukes. Maybe Trump is saying "Ave, morituri te salutant" but we can't hear it.
  #8  
Old 06-14-2018, 06:58 PM
bobot bobot is offline
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Not really. This is the beginning, middle and end of it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
.... He saluted the NK'n general because he's impulsive and acts without thinking.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:02 PM
DinoR DinoR is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
It's contrary to American military training to salute while in civilian clothes (though many presidents have ignored this).
I think this is one of those interservice differences that gets assumed to be the same. On the Army side the regulation says that a salute is not required if one of the parties is in civilian clothes. It is not in anyway disallowed or contrary to any training I received. I certainly initiated and returned many salutes when one or both of the parties was in civilian clothes. Presidents, of course, trump DOD or service level regulations.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:07 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoR View Post
I think this is one of those interservice differences that gets assumed to be the same. On the Army side the regulation says that a salute is not required if one of the parties is in civilian clothes. It is not in anyway disallowed or contrary to any training I received. I certainly initiated and returned many salutes when one or both of the parties was in civilian clothes. Presidents, of course, trump DOD or service level regulations.
Perhaps. In the Navy, I was trained to always salute superior officers when I was in uniform -- if they were in civilian clothes (which means I'd have to know personally they're rank by their face), they would never salute back. But if I was in civilian clothes, I never saluted. If someone saluted me while I was in civvies, I'd just nod to acknowledge, but not salute back.
  #11  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:10 PM
Bricker Bricker is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
In uniform, I'd never salute a foreign officer unless they were working with us in a joint exercise or an exchange program.
As I read AR 600-25(2-1)(c):

Quote:
Foreign military officials listed in table 2–1, holding positions equivalent to those of DOD and military department officials, both military and civilian, will be rendered the honors to which the equivalent U.S. official is entitled, regardless of actual military rank. All other foreign military persons will receive the honors due their actual rank or its U.S. Army equivalent.
Is that not the rule?
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  #12  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:12 PM
DinoR DinoR is online now
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Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
Is that not the rule?
That wasn't andy's rule but it was mine. He was Navy and the AR stands for Army Regulation.
  #13  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:15 PM
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Link to an article for those of us who missed what happened?
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:22 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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I don't actually recall the exact Navy regulation for whom to salute, but from my memory we salute foreign military officers only when we are in uniform and we're allies/working together. But my memory shouldn't be considered authoritative on this -- I'm certain that Navy regs say we don't salute when not in uniform (or when we're "uncovered", meaning not wearing our uniform cap, which includes when we're inside), but I'm not as certain about the rules for foreign officers.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-14-2018 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:25 PM
Ranger Jeff Ranger Jeff is offline
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In the USCG (and probably the USN because they copy everything the CG does) one only salutes if one is wearing a cover (hat). And one NEVER wears a cover indoors UNLESS they are under arms.

Translation: If I'm inside unarmed (even just a white guard belt with a baton) I don't offer salutes or return them. If I'm outside in uniform I offer and return salutes. I don't salute in civvies.

To be honest, there's an unwritten rule concerning distance from the recipient. Where I was mostly stationed, in the training center there were a LOT more Enlisted than Officers and Warrants. Once after returning from lunch, my Warrant came to our office where the coffee mess was and griped about having to return all those salutes wore out his arm. So I'd often see Officers and Warrants walk on the OTHER side of the street so they wouldn't be saluted and have to return one.

Then there was the rush for indoors when the bugle played the warning about raising or lowering the flag.
  #16  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:26 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger Jeff View Post
In the USCG (and probably the USN because they copy everything the CG does)
I think you got that backwards, shipmate.
  #17  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cochrane View Post
Link to an article for those of us who missed what happened?
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/14/polit...rea/index.html
  #18  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger Jeff View Post
Translation: If I'm inside unarmed (even just a white guard belt with a baton) I don't offer salutes or return them. If I'm outside in uniform I offer and return salutes. I don't salute in civvies.
Nitpick -- you do salute indoors when you're reporting (although I can count on 1 finger the number of times I reported anywhere after my initial training), and I don't think it's written in the AF regs but it's also customary to salute when receiving an award or honor from a higher ranking officer (i.e., take-shake-salute, which I'm sure you've done before).

But more importantly....

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm certain that Navy regs say we don't salute when not in uniform
I'd bet that, like the AF reg I mentioned above, the Navy regs don't say anything about when not to salute. It's customary not to salute outside of the prescribed requirements, but there's no repercussions for going above and beyond, or saluting whomever/whatever/whenever you'd like.

For the sake of the story, there's absolutely no foul in Trump returning the General's salute, other than whatever political hay anyone wants to make of it. Personally, it doesn't even rank on the radar of things Trump's done this week that we should be discussing.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:57 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steronz View Post
I'd bet that, like the AF reg I mentioned above, the Navy regs don't say anything about when not to salute. It's customary not to salute outside of the prescribed requirements, but there's no repercussions for going above and beyond, or saluting whomever/whatever/whenever you'd like.

For the sake of the story, there's absolutely no foul in Trump returning the General's salute, other than whatever political hay anyone wants to make of it. Personally, it doesn't even rank on the radar of things Trump's done this week that we should be discussing.
At some point I'll stop being lazy and look up the regs, but we were specifically taught in training to not salute while uncovered.
  #20  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:58 PM
bobot bobot is offline
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nm

Last edited by bobot; 06-14-2018 at 07:58 PM.
  #21  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:59 PM
bobot bobot is offline
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
...Personally, it doesn't even rank on the radar of things Trump's done this week that we should be discussing.
OK, what would you prefer to discuss in this thread?
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:06 PM
Sicks Ate Sicks Ate is offline
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Navy policy specifically says not to salute when uncovered, which would include indoors.

Marine Corps policy follows.


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Last edited by Sicks Ate; 06-14-2018 at 08:09 PM.
  #23  
Old 06-14-2018, 08:14 PM
steronz steronz is online now
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^^ Well I'll be damned, mea culpa to iiandyiii and others. Reading some guidance for joint environments, that's actually one of the differences highlighted between the Navy and the Army/Air Force. Even when reporting, no saluting uncovered. Sorry guys.

Last edited by steronz; 06-14-2018 at 08:15 PM.
  #24  
Old 06-14-2018, 08:46 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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I always return salutes from Venezuelan troops marching through our neighborhood.
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Old 06-14-2018, 11:36 PM
Sunny Daze Sunny Daze is offline
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
I always return salutes from Venezuelan troops marching through our neighborhood.
I pay careful attention to armed men of all sorts marching through mine.
  #26  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:24 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
As I read AR 600-25(2-1)(c):
That's the Army rule, which has exactly zero bearing on the President's actions. I can't find the rule on saluting enemy generals, but I'm fairly certain it's "No".
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:11 AM
MEBuckner MEBuckner is offline
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I've never been in the military, but as far as I can tell, there are longstanding precedents for saluting not just foreign officers, but (in at least some circumstances) even enemy officers. From a 1991 U.S. Army pamphlet on Prisoners of War:
Quote:
Enlisted prisoners must salute officers of the detaining power and show them the same respect required by their own forces. Officer prisoners must salute higher-ranking officers of the detaining power and the camp commander, regardless of his rank.
And U.S. Presidents have been returning salutes since at least Reagan's day, regardless of whether or not that is strictly proper in terms of military protocol.

Of all the shit Trump has done, including numerous things relating specifically to this summit...I don't really see that this was even objectionable. The bit with the one guy extending a hand for a handshake while the other guy is saluting, and the first guy returning the salute while the other guy extends his hand for a handshake, before they finally shake hands, all sounds mildly comical, but could probably have happened to any president, even one who wasn't utterly incompetent and mentally and morally unfit for office.
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  #28  
Old 06-15-2018, 03:18 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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I cannot believe that I am saying this, but Trump was in the right here. He received a salute as President of the US. He returned it. It was a diplomatic summit. What should he have done? Stuck out a middle finger? If you watched CNN it would seem Trump had handed over the launch codes.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:00 AM
Casparlatete Casparlatete is offline
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When you are President of the United States of America, you can do what you damn well like - and in case you hadn't noticed, he does.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:33 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by MEBuckner View Post
Of all the shit Trump has done, including numerous things relating specifically to this summit...I don't really see that this was even objectionable. The bit with the one guy extending a hand for a handshake while the other guy is saluting, and the first guy returning the salute while the other guy extends his hand for a handshake, before they finally shake hands, all sounds mildly comical, but could probably have happened to any president, even one who wasn't utterly incompetent and mentally and morally unfit for office.
It's at worst a minor faux pas. But he never should have been in the presence of NK'n generals for a photo op in the first place. That's just handing Kim yet another propaganda victory for nothing.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:38 AM
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Anyone notice if he snapped his heels together?
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:45 AM
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For those of us who don't lose our shit when a Democratic president performs a gesture of respect to a foreign leader, this is at best an embarrassing faux pas that handed North Korea a small propaganda coup but otherwise is fairly trivial. For those who declared that bowing to a Saudi prince or saluting a Marine with a coffee cup in your hand were signs of the End Times, saluting a member of the military of a hostile nation (and remember that NK has repeatedly threatened to nuke the US, not to mention its various issues with our ally to its south) ought to blow their tiny minds but of course will be rationalized away.
  #33  
Old 06-15-2018, 06:50 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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A North Korean general saluting a US President is a "propaganda coup"? It was the officers who initiated the salute not Trump?
Did military officers who were in Trump's entourage who no doubt met NKor military officers refuse to salute?
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
A North Korean general saluting a US President is a "propaganda coup"? It was the officers who initiated the salute not Trump?
Did military officers who were in Trump's entourage who no doubt met NKor military officers refuse to salute?
No, a US President saluting a North Korean general is a "propaganda coup", as evidenced by the North Koreans immediately using the video of it as propaganda.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:01 AM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Originally Posted by Ranger Jeff View Post
To be honest, there's an unwritten rule concerning distance from the recipient. Where I was mostly stationed, in the training center there were a LOT more Enlisted than Officers and Warrants. Once after returning from lunch, my Warrant came to our office where the coffee mess was and griped about having to return all those salutes wore out his arm. So I'd often see Officers and Warrants walk on the OTHER side of the street so they wouldn't be saluted and have to return one.
Heh, reminds me of a time when a bunch of us took a bus to some event. An officer was on the sidewalk, I assume waiting to speak to the driver, and kept returning the salutes thrown at him by each person getting off the bus. After four or five, he just held his arm in place until the passengers were gone.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:06 AM
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I think it should be pointed out that, while the President is the CIC of the armed forces, he is not a member of or officer commissioned in them.

And while he can do whatever he pleases I think it's not only unnecessary, but inappropriate to return a salute from anybody; doubly so from a member of a semi-hostile army.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:27 AM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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Depends. Did the flag have a gold fringe? Was it a full moon? Had the crow a twig in its beak?


I’ve been hearing Trump is a secret Buddhist.

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  #38  
Old 06-15-2018, 07:37 AM
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From Google: "It doesn’t matter if the president doesn’t salute “properly”. He doesn’t have to salute at all. He’s not in the military. Presidents traditionally did not return salutes. Reagan began the tradition of the president returning the salute. As a military officer in WWII he might have some claim to saluting but Eisenhower, a retired general, did not salute."

Though I despise Trump in general, I have no problem with him returning the salute out of courtesy and as an overture of friendship. If we're trying to turn an enemy into a friend, showing some respect can't be a bad thing. In situations like that, however, it is important not to cross the line that separates "respect" from "deference".
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:43 AM
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I've seen other senior civilians get saluted by the military. I few times I've seen the Secretary of Defense get saluted by a military Officer (who I think got carried away after meet the Secretary for the first time) and the response was a head nod and a quiet "thank you." That is what I think should have been done here.

Beyond that, I'm disappointed that this wasn't one the myriad of things discussed prior to the meeting so he would have known how to handle it. This shouldn't have been a surprise, and they should have known the right way (whatever that was deemed to be) to handle it.

Last edited by spifflog; 06-15-2018 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:54 AM
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It probably was. But do you expect Trump to remember a myriad of things? Or even pay attention in the first place?
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:55 AM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
Though I despise Trump in general, I have no problem with him returning the salute out of courtesy and as an overture of friendship. If we're trying to turn an enemy into a friend, showing some respect can't be a bad thing. In situations like that, however, it is important not to cross the line that separates "respect" from "deference".
It doesn't really matter what Trump does - I gather the issue is what Fox News does. They were vocal when Obama either didn't return a salute or did so in an arguably inappropriate way i.e. while holding a coffee cup, but were silent when Bush43 or Trump acted comparably.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:59 AM
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It probably was. But do you expect Trump to remember a myriad of things? Or even pay attention in the first place?
Unfortunately, that would be 'no' on both counts Chronos.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by spifflog View Post
I've seen other senior civilians get saluted by the military. I few times I've seen the Secretary of Defense get saluted by a military Officer (who I think got carried away after meet the Secretary for the first time) and the response was a head nod and a quiet "thank you." That is what I think should have been done here.

Beyond that, I'm disappointed that this wasn't one the myriad of things discussed prior to the meeting so he would have known how to handle it. This shouldn't have been a surprise, and they should have known the right way (whatever that was deemed to be) to handle it.
CNN
Quote:
A US official told CNN that Trump was briefed on protocol, which is to not salute military officers from other countries. The White House, however, is not viewing Trump saluting a North Korean general as a mistake. It is being seen as all part of the broader goal that day, which was to show respect to Kim and his entourage, according to the official.
Of course, he didn't listen. Why do they even bother anymore?
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:44 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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More and more the White House is looking like The Twilight Zone episode "It's A Good Life", because no matter what The Cheeto-In-Chief says and/or does "It's a good thing".
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:56 AM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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More and more the White House is looking like The Twilight Zone episode "It's A Good Life", because no matter what The Cheeto-In-Chief says and/or does "It's a good thing".
Does this mean that eventually Jeff Sessions' head will be bobbing up and down on a jack-in-the-box spring Out In The Field?
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  #46  
Old 06-15-2018, 09:56 AM
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When I was in the Canadian Armed Forces I was taught that in uniform, you always saluted officers, no matter what country they were from, and a Canadian officer would expect a salute from any enlisted member or lesser officer from any other country and was expected to return it. This was a written rule, no ambiguity about it. "Allied" was not a relevant concept. It is conceivable you could salute an officer of an enemy - if for instance you were speaking to an enemy officer while negotiating under flag of truce, it would be polite and appropriate to salute them.

This was kind of important in Kingston, where I was based, because there's a staff college there and visiting officers are common. You can get a little jumpy trying to figure out whether the Israeli guy walking towards you is an officer or not and if so what kind of officer he is... oh crap he's walking with a dude from, is that Ghana? What the hell rank is he? Do two stripes mean captain there, too?

Salutes to civilians are a rare honor, but often appropriate. Saluting a head of state, of course. The Prime Minister and Minister of Defence are to be saluted.

A soldier could salute an individual civilian of their acquaintance, but this was considered an act of unusual respect and wasn't to be overused.
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  #47  
Old 06-15-2018, 10:03 AM
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In Commonwealth Armies IIRC an officer is supposed to acknowledge the salute even when returning it is not appropriate, for example when sitting down or in civvies.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
When I was in the Canadian Armed Forces I was taught that in uniform, you always saluted officers, no matter what country they were from, and a Canadian officer would expect a salute from any enlisted member or lesser officer from any other country. "Allied" was not a relevant concept. It is conceivable you could salute an officer of an enemy - if for instance you were speaking to an enemy officer while negotiating under flag of truce, it would be polite and appropriate to salute them.

This was kind of important in Kingston, where I was based, because there's a staff college there and visiting officers are common. You can get a little jumpy trying to figure out whether the Israeli guy walking towards you is an officer or not and if so what kind of officer he is... oh crap he's walking with a dude from, is that Ghana? What the hell rank is he? Do two stripes mean captain there, too?

Salutes to civilians are a rare honor, but often appropriate. Saluting a head of state, of course.

One did not salute out of uniform, in uniform while not wearing a headdress, or, in most circumstances, during field operations.

The rules are pretty much the same everywhere.
American officer return salute of surrendering Germans in WW2
British officer returns Japanese salute.
  #49  
Old 06-15-2018, 10:24 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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To sum up: there is nothing requiring Trump to return a salute. Neither is there anything indicating that he should not. This is a non-story.
  #50  
Old 06-15-2018, 10:28 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
To sum up: there is nothing requiring Trump to return a salute. Neither is there anything indicating that he should not. This is a non-story.
Except for the tiny fact that the image of him saluting North Korean officials is being played nonstop there to bolster the propaganda that we capitulated. That was the primary reason he was told NOT to do it, I'm betting.
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