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Old 09-05-2019, 02:13 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Baizuo


I have run into this term more and more frequently in some online discussions and the premise seems to be that western liberals have jumped the shark.

Don't get me wrong, the racism we see from the right still ensures the loyalty of the asian vote but there seems to be a growing sentiment in the asian community that the woke SJW crowd is driving the train and the woke SJW crowd seems dismissive of concerns about anti-asian discrimination.

The right seems to want to keep asians out of the country but they seem more open to seeing us succeed once we are here. The left wants to welcome us here but seems uncomfortable with our success once we are here. Noone seems to want the asian vote.

Certainly noone panders for it the way they pander for the black, hispanic, lgbtq vote on the left or the racist vote on the right.

Will the shift of focus away from equality of opportunity towards equality of results push asians (and many other immigrant communities) away from the Democratic party and suppress voter participation among asians (which would be very counterproductive to getting politicians to give a crap about us).
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Old 09-05-2019, 03:43 PM
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Some information seems to be missing in the initial argument, namely what the fuck is a Baizuo.
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Old 09-05-2019, 03:50 PM
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Some information seems to be missing in the initial argument, namely what the fuck is a Baizuo.
While I agree with your post about what is missing in the OP, if you type "define: Baizuo" into Google, you may be (unfortunately) enlightened.

Not that it matters:
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Old 09-05-2019, 03:47 PM
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Bai Zuo = "White Left" - a term in Mandarin Chinese to refer to Western liberals, especially white Western liberals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo



Edit: Another relevant article: The Rise of the Chinese-American Right

Last edited by Velocity; 09-05-2019 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 09-05-2019, 03:49 PM
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Linky. In other words, SJW. Link. Or libtard.
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Old 09-05-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
The right seems to want to keep asians out of the country but they seem more open to seeing us succeed once we are here. The left wants to welcome us here but seems uncomfortable with our success once we are here. Noone seems to want the asian vote.

Certainly noone panders for it the way they pander for the black, hispanic, lgbtq vote on the left or the racist vote on the right.
Relevant article: The "whitening" of Asians in America https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...ricans/563336/

I think you largely nailed it. Many conservatives don't like Asians any more than they like other brown-skinned people. And many liberals don't think that Asians count as a "true" minority.
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Old 09-05-2019, 04:37 PM
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The left wants to welcome us here but seems uncomfortable with our success once we are here.
Can you give an example?

By the way, baizuo seems like something that peipei qingwa would talk a lot about on Reddit.
SPOILER:
peipei qingwa = Pepe the Frog

Last edited by Ravenman; 09-05-2019 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 09-05-2019, 05:42 PM
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Can you give an example?
Seconded - since when do liberals have a problem with successful asians?

I mean, sure, there's not really a lot of widespread concern about anti-asian discrimination (give or take that I've seen some notice given to the fact they're not well-represented in cinema), but I hadn't gotten the impression that asian success is frowned upon by liberals either.
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Old 09-05-2019, 09:36 PM
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Can you give an example?

By the way, baizuo seems like something that peipei qingwa would talk a lot about on Reddit.
SPOILER:
peipei qingwa = Pepe the Frog
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Seconded - since when do liberals have a problem with successful asians?

I mean, sure, there's not really a lot of widespread concern about anti-asian discrimination (give or take that I've seen some notice given to the fact they're not well-represented in cinema), but I hadn't gotten the impression that asian success is frowned upon by liberals either.
I said they are uncomfortable with it. By they, I mean the woke SJWs. The Baizuo. They have created this narrative that places the blame for the lack of "success" of blacks and hispanics at the feet of white supremacy. Any suggestion that perhaps blacks and hispanics could be doing more to improve their situation is condemned as being somewhere between victim blaming to outright racism.

Then along comes a non-white group that achieves some measure of success in spite of all the white supremacy. It is an inconvenient truth for all the derivative critical race theorists in education and ethnic studies departments around the country. And this inconvenient truth makes them uncomfortable.

Jews used to have to deal with this problem but people sorts dismissed as the effect of the generally white appearance of jews, but its harder to do with asians.
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:05 PM
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I said they are uncomfortable with it.
I’m not saying you are wrong about some leftists being “uncomfortable” with successful Asians, I’m saying I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’m asking what observation leads you to say that they are uncomfortable with it? You’ve laid out a scenario that explains the logic that certain people think a certain way and therefore don’t like Asian success. But saying that a person thinks a certain way, in the absence of some observation of how that person actually reacts or expresses that discomfort, leaves me with no idea of whether this is a real thing or just a figment of your imagination.

Can you explain any further how this alleged discomfort is evinced?
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:54 PM
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I’m not sure why you are framing this from the perspective of Asian-Americans, immigrants or otherwise, as this is apparently mainly a mainland Chinese thing. Now why do mainland Chinese hold modern western liberals in contempt? C’mon now it should be obvious. The folks who are expressing these sentiments appear to be competitive nationalists. Why would they respect modern western liberalism?

Last edited by octopus; 09-05-2019 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 09-05-2019, 11:41 PM
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I’m not saying you are wrong about some leftists being “uncomfortable” with successful Asians, I’m saying I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’m asking what observation leads you to say that they are uncomfortable with it? You’ve laid out a scenario that explains the logic that certain people think a certain way and therefore don’t like Asian success. But saying that a person thinks a certain way, in the absence of some observation of how that person actually reacts or expresses that discomfort, leaves me with no idea of whether this is a real thing or just a figment of your imagination.

Can you explain any further how this alleged discomfort is evinced?

"Disliking Asian success" is probably not the best way to put it. But take the Asian-American vs. Harvard ongoing anti-discrimination lawsuit, for instance. As far as I can tell from social media, liberals are squarely on the side of Harvard, despite Harvard having engaged in stereotyping practices such as assigning Asian applicants low "personality" or "likability" scores without even having met or spoken to the applicants in person.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:12 AM
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Then along comes a non-white group that achieves some measure of success in spite of all the white supremacy. It is an inconvenient truth for all the derivative critical race theorists in education and ethnic studies departments around the country. And this inconvenient truth makes them uncomfortable.
This assertion seems bizarre to me. It is not at all "inconvenient" for anybody who blames white racism for a lot of problems facing black and Hispanic people in the US to acknowledge the achievements of Asian-Americans despite white racism against Asians. I don't know anybody who's made "uncomfortable" by this, nor why they should be.

Because, simply put, the situations of black, Hispanic and Asian people in the US are not interchangeable. For example, as this article notes
Quote:
One obvious point—though often overlooked—is that Asian-Americans are largely first- or second-generation immigrants, and immigrants are by definition a self-selected group. They are the ones who have been willing and able—or whose parents have been willing and able—to take the often risky journey to start a new life in a foreign land. Immigrants are often well-educated. Asian-Americans have in fact been a uniquely hyper-selective migrant group. The share of well-educated Asian immigrants is in fact higher than the American population average. This alone is likely to influence outcomes, since there is a clear connection between parental education and the education achievement of their children.
I'm not trying to minimize the appalling prejudice that many Asian-Americans have had to contend with, or for that matter Irish-Americans or Jewish Americans or any other minority group that's suffered historical discrimination. But it's ridiculous to imagine that the experience of any one group should be assumed to be typical for any other group.

The only people who could think it's "inconvenient" for liberals to acknowledge the successes of Asian-Americans while also decrying racism against black and Latino Americans are people making up a straw liberal.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:22 PM
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This assertion seems bizarre to me. It is not at all "inconvenient" for anybody who blames white racism for a lot of problems facing black and Hispanic people in the US to acknowledge the achievements of Asian-Americans despite white racism against Asians. I don't know anybody who's made "uncomfortable" by this, nor why they should be.
The Baizuo premise is that success is supposed to be impossible for anyone that is not white in America's white supremacist culture. They are uncomfortable with asian success.

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Because, simply put, the situations of black, Hispanic and Asian people in the US are not interchangeable. For example, as this article notes
And that means that it's OK to discriminate against asians? Should "social justice" for hispanics come at the cost of social injustice for the vietnamese? We all show up in this country with whatever baggage we have. It is not our job to equalize everyone at the border, is it?

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I'm not trying to minimize the appalling prejudice that many Asian-Americans have had to contend with, or for that matter Irish-Americans or Jewish Americans or any other minority group that's suffered historical discrimination. But it's ridiculous to imagine that the experience of any one group should be assumed to be typical for any other group.
That's not the point. I think most asians americans feel that blacks in america get a raw deal but a lot of that is due to the prejudice of individuals. A type of prejudice that existed for asians at one point. Asians worked pretty hard to get out from under that prejudice and now it feels like we are being punished for our success by baizuo who are uncomfortable with our success..

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The only people who could think it's "inconvenient" for liberals to acknowledge the successes of Asian-Americans while also decrying racism against black and Latino Americans are people making up a straw liberal.
So you haven't seen liberals trying to explain away asian success with theories about "white adjacency" "white proximity" "spill-over white privilege"? These are all devices that baizuo use to try to explain away the inconvenient truth that while america is a white supremacist country, success is still possible for minorities that make the extraordinary sacrifices to overcome that white supremacy and racism. And now we have to overcome that racism from the left as well as the right.
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Old 09-06-2019, 07:16 AM
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I said they are uncomfortable with it. By they, I mean the woke SJWs. The Baizuo. They have created this narrative that places the blame for the lack of "success" of blacks and hispanics at the feet of white supremacy. Any suggestion that perhaps blacks and hispanics could be doing more to improve their situation is condemned as being somewhere between victim blaming to outright racism.

Then along comes a non-white group that achieves some measure of success in spite of all the white supremacy. It is an inconvenient truth for all the derivative critical race theorists in education and ethnic studies departments around the country. And this inconvenient truth makes them uncomfortable.

Jews used to have to deal with this problem but people sorts dismissed as the effect of the generally white appearance of jews, but its harder to do with asians.
The circumstances between Asian, Jewish, and black Americans, broadly speaking, are so different that there's no possibility of comparison. If/when you insist on comparing them and making negative judgments on black people, then you might get criticized for it, and sometimes criticized harshly.

Self-selected immigrants are generally quite successful, statistically speaking -- Nigerian immigrants, for example, are statistically more successful than Asian Americans, IIRC. This doesn't demonstrate any inherent cultural (or otherwise) superiority in Nigerians -- it's just the circumstances of those who come to America.

Some of the founding ideals of the American system, and American culture, were white supremacism, black servitude, and Native genocide. There have been fits and spurts of other forms of bigotry and hatefulness -- but these have been by far the most prominent, and the most brutal and harmful. Which is reflected very obviously in various statistics -- black and Native Americans are at the bottom of most statistical indicators. It isn't a coincidence that the two ethnic groups treated, by far, the worst over American history are also at the bottom of most statistical indicators for wealth, education, crime, health, etc.

EDIT: This doesn't mean that Asian Americans necessarily have it easy. I think it's very reasonable to bring up and criticize college policies if they disadvantage Asian students, or other forms of possible discrimination against Asian Americans.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-06-2019 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:30 PM
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This doesn't mean that Asian Americans necessarily have it easy. I think it's very reasonable to bring up and criticize college policies if they disadvantage Asian students, or other forms of possible discrimination against Asian Americans.
This is the source of much of the asian american concern. The liberal left has jumped to the defense of what seems to be pretty discriminatory stuff because they like the results. It really makes it clear that asians are a junior partner in the fight for racial justice. That racial justice for groups that have historically been oppressed by a bunch of white people should come at the expense of poor asian kids. Meanwhile we preserve legacy admission for the children of mostly white people. We preserve athletic preferences for the children of mostly white people.
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:59 PM
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I wouldn't blame white supremacy as such, but the US is a country with low social mobility where blacks started below the bottom: many could not say they had as much as a penniless white until maybe a decade or two after the civil rights movement.

In terms of the Asian-american situation, it's more complicated. Some indeed started from the bottom, and they would benefit from efforts to make society more meritocratic and less dependent on where you grew up or whether you got tuition for the test.
But many are from families that had already succeeded academically or economically in their home countries.

And in terms of foreign students coming to the US to study, a high proportion of them are from wealthy families.
So it is not surprising that when we're talking about economic inequality and how blacks are disadvantaged from where they go to school that few people are concerned with the kids who went to a school in Shanghai that costs $30,000 / yr and got extra tuition on the weekends.

Then on other issues like police brutality, I am unaware of this even being a problem for asian americans. If it is, then for sure I would also protest that.

All that said, as someone living in China, it's clear to me that the whole society places a huge value on academic achievement.
And yes, it would be good if we could build such a culture among say blacks or latinos. I would agree with that. But that doesn't mean the system is fair for kids growing up in poor families, or that the best or only way to tackle the problems is to focus on culture.
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Old 09-07-2019, 11:48 AM
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I wouldn't blame white supremacy as such, but the US is a country with low social mobility where blacks started below the bottom: many could not say they had as much as a penniless white until maybe a decade or two after the civil rights movement.

In terms of the Asian-american situation, it's more complicated. Some indeed started from the bottom, and they would benefit from efforts to make society more meritocratic and less dependent on where you grew up or whether you got tuition for the test.
But many are from families that had already succeeded academically or economically in their home countries.

And in terms of foreign students coming to the US to study, a high proportion of them are from wealthy families.
So it is not surprising that when we're talking about economic inequality and how blacks are disadvantaged from where they go to school that few people are concerned with the kids who went to a school in Shanghai that costs $30,000 / yr and got extra tuition on the weekends.

Then on other issues like police brutality, I am unaware of this even being a problem for asian americans. If it is, then for sure I would also protest that.

All that said, as someone living in China, it's clear to me that the whole society places a huge value on academic achievement.
And yes, it would be good if we could build such a culture among say blacks or latinos. I would agree with that. But that doesn't mean the system is fair for kids growing up in poor families, or that the best or only way to tackle the problems is to focus on culture.
Since you are in China, where the term originated, is that attitude actually common? Is there actually a sizable amount of folks who think western liberalism is nutty? Or is it more of a Chinese Internet thing?
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Old 09-05-2019, 05:00 PM
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I think the perception is that Asians are more or less unique as a minority in the US, in that as a group, they're not really suffering the negative effects of discrimination- economically and academically, the Asian community is quite successful, even relative to white Americans.

On top of that, the perception is that they're also more conservative due to the perceived lack of discrimination. So like others have said, the left doesn't consider them a "real" minority, and the right doesn't like them as foreigners, but doesn't really have as much animus toward them because they tend to align that way.
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Old 09-05-2019, 11:29 PM
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This seems to be a manufactured crisis. That said, students of Asian decent sure seem to be disadvantaged at institutions such as Harvard. Note, this is nothing new. A Korean American dormmate at the University of California in 1979 was shocked to learn he wasn't considered a "minority."
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:18 AM
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A Korean American dormmate at the University of California in 1979 was shocked to learn he wasn't considered a "minority."
Well, Asian-Americans are a demographic that makes up a little over 5% of the general US population but over 20% of the student body at elite colleges and universities. So while they are still an ethnic minority in US society, they are not an underrepresented minority in higher education. Same goes for Jewish Americans, who make up about 2% of the overall US population but between 10% and 20% of students at high-ranking colleges.
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:03 AM
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Is it possible that the US left does not see Asian-Americans as needing as much support as other minorities? They seem to be doing pretty well.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:12 AM
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Is it possible that the US left does not see Asian-Americans as needing as much support as other minorities? They seem to be doing pretty well.
Yes, and that's the point. They are a racial minority, "America is a white supremacist society", Asians have been (and are now being) discriminated against, so they "should" need extra support as other minorities do.

But they don't need that support. They are out-performing, not only other racial and ethnic minorities, but whites who are supposedly benefiting from privilege. It's not supposed to work that way, in the narrative of "whiteness".

They are supposed to need excuses. They don't.

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Old 09-06-2019, 12:37 PM
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Yes, and that's the point. They are a racial minority, "America is a white supremacist society", Asians have been (and are now being) discriminated against, so they "should" need extra support as other minorities do.

But they don't need that support. They are out-performing, not only other racial and ethnic minorities, but whites who are supposedly benefiting from privilege. It's not supposed to work that way, in the narrative of "whiteness".

They are supposed to need excuses. They don't.

Regards,
Shodan
I generally agree with your post but

There is still a ton of racism, we should try to fix it. Racism wears on you. Some people can stoically grind it out but not everyone can. Suicide rates for minority children are much higher than suicide rates for white kids. I suspect racism has something to do with it rather than psychological fragility of minorities.

What we shouldn't do is let it become an excuse to visit injustice on others.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:26 PM
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Is it possible that the US left does not see Asian-Americans as needing as much support as other minorities? They seem to be doing pretty well.
And that's what makes the baizuo so uncomfortable. Minorities are not supposed to succeed in a white supremacist society, its supposed to be possible only for rare individuals.
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:13 PM
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Is it possible that the US left does not see Asian-Americans as needing as much support as other minorities? They seem to be doing pretty well.
They are indeed, but why are they discriminated against?
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:00 PM
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This seems to be a manufactured crisis. That said, students of Asian decent sure seem to be disadvantaged at institutions such as Harvard. Note, this is nothing new. A Korean American dormmate at the University of California in 1979 was shocked to learn he wasn't considered a "minority."
I would say that there is a significant population of asian americans who think the left is dismissive towards asians when there is a conflict between what is good for asians and what is good for any other minority. Many on the left have a racial pecking order (and we see it expressed here), and asians are the junior partners in the push for racial justice.

I believe the primary reason asians went from being overwhelmingly republican in the 1980s to overwhelmingly democrat is because so many republicans are racist, and asians started to identify republicans as the party of the reacists. Republicans no longer have a monopoly on racism in the eyes of many in the asian american community.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:22 PM
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I would say that there is a significant population of asian americans who think the left is dismissive towards asians when there is a conflict between what is good for asians and what is good for any other minority. Many on the left have a racial pecking order (and we see it expressed here), and asians are the junior partners in the push for racial justice.

I believe the primary reason asians went from being overwhelmingly republican in the 1980s to overwhelmingly democrat is because so many republicans are racist, and asians started to identify republicans as the party of the reacists. Republicans no longer have a monopoly on racism in the eyes of many in the asian american community.
Do you have any specific examples? I want to fight any "racial pecking order" or other sorts of nonsense on the left that might drive away Asian voters.
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Old 09-06-2019, 01:12 PM
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Do you have any specific examples? I want to fight any "racial pecking order" or other sorts of nonsense on the left that might drive away Asian voters.
The way liberals seem to defend anti-asian discrimination today because it might threaten affirmative action for favored races at some point in the future. The way that liberals want to eliminate or dilute objective measures of merit to expand diversity for favored races mostly at the expense of asian kids.
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Old 09-06-2019, 01:14 PM
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The way liberals seem to defend anti-asian discrimination today because it might threaten affirmative action for favored races at some point in the future. The way that liberals want to eliminate or dilute objective measures of merit to expand diversity for favored races mostly at the expense of asian kids.
I don't think liberals do this, broadly speaking. I don't think most liberals have any awareness that college admissions policies (some of them, I assume, though I have very little knowledge of this subject at all) are discriminatory in any way against Asian students.

EDIT: I'm a liberal, and I think I'm pretty well-informed, but I know next to nothing about college admissions policies, much less if/how they harm Asian Americans.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-06-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:20 AM
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Aah, I see "Divide and conquer" is still a viable strategy...
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:30 AM
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Well, the targets aren’t strawmen or strawpeople. The targets are real. Ask yourself why would a rising nation, one that should be the #1 economy anytime now, be derisive about a particular faction of the west? I believe it comes from the astonishment that a nation that had such an impressive lead in practically every metric of power is inhabited by a significant fraction willing to actively hamstring itself.
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:34 AM
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Ask yourself why would a rising nation, one that should be the #1 economy anytime now, be derisive about a particular faction of the west?
I'm guessing the same people are staunchly opposed to protesters in Hong Kong who don't want to have their rights trampled, so I'm inclined to think that the main issue here isn't nationality or race, but one's views on human rights and liberty.
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:43 AM
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I'm guessing the same people are staunchly opposed to protesters in Hong Kong who don't want to have their rights trampled, so I'm inclined to think that the main issue here isn't nationality or race, but one's views on human rights and liberty.
I think it’s about the nature of power. Look at how far China has come and how quickly. It’s impressive. The island creations, that new Silk Road project, the spread of Chinese power outside of Asia, internal infrastructure improvements, etc. are the results of a people who have a confident and ambitious mindset. Why wouldn’t they be amazed that the current #1 which they will probably surpass is willing to abdicate that spot. Contrary to what some would wish to believe we are a world of competing nation-states.

You want rights and liberty? You better not give up the mechanisms which enable one to protect those rights.

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Old 09-06-2019, 11:55 AM
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What forums are you reading that stuff on? Actual "liberal" ones, or white-nationalist caricatures of them?
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:55 PM
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What forums are you reading that stuff on? Actual "liberal" ones, or white-nationalist caricatures of them?
These are not partisan forums. I first encountered the term on a forum about Mayor DeBlasio's efforts to eliminate the SHSAT as the sole criteria for admission to three of the magnet schools in NYC. The term popped up in the recent proposal to eliminate all Gifted and Talented programs to make public school more equitable.

I would guess that the overwhelming majority of the participants on the forum are Democrats.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:59 PM
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These are not partisan forums. I first encountered the term on a forum about Mayor DeBlasio's efforts to eliminate the SHSAT as the sole criteria for admission to three of the magnet schools in NYC. The term popped up in the recent proposal to eliminate all Gifted and Talented programs to make public school more equitable.

I would guess that the overwhelming majority of the participants on the forum are Democrats.
But talking about various tests isn't necessarily harmful to Asians. Maybe this policy should be changed -- maybe using that test as the sole criteria is leaving a lot of kids out who would be great students. Are you saying that any policy other than maintaining this particular test as the sole criteria is necessarily harmful to Asians?
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Old 09-06-2019, 01:07 PM
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My first thought when anything comes up on message boards about education, especially public/charter schools, is that parents' comments are likely driven by an overwhelming and driving compulsion to do everything humanly possible to make sure their precious child has a slight advantage over any other bastard who might get in their way. Half of the crazies on those sort of message boards would knife a seven year old to get their precious little one into an after-school coding class.

Now, that doesn't mean that there isn't racism in play. But since the OP can't explain what the fuck he's talking about other than repeating the word "discomfort" and making a reference to a thing he read on a message board probably populated by type-A parents, I'm inclined to say that there may be a more simple explanation at work here.
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Old 09-07-2019, 09:39 AM
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These are not partisan forums.
Then how about a link or two? Even a name. Let us judge for ourselves.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:19 PM
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I have run into this term more and more frequently in some online discussions and the premise seems to be that western liberals have jumped the shark.

Don't get me wrong, the racism we see from the right still ensures the loyalty of the asian vote but there seems to be a growing sentiment in the asian community that the woke SJW crowd is driving the train and the woke SJW crowd seems dismissive of concerns about anti-asian discrimination.

{snip}

Certainly noone panders for it the way they pander for the black, hispanic, lgbtq vote on the left or the racist vote on the right.
How would one go about “pandering” to Asian-Americans? Another way to ask this question: What policy issues are of specific concern to Asian-Americans that are being ignored by progressives?

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Will the shift of focus away from equality of opportunity towards equality of results push asians (and many other immigrant communities) away from the Democratic party and suppress voter participation among asians (which would be very counterproductive to getting politicians to give a crap about us).
What does conservatism offer Asian-Americans who desire “equality of opportunity”? Conservatives support systems that favor affluent whites over others, and they’ve showed no sign of stopping this. As much as Affirmative Action comes up in discussions about Asian-Americans, you would think at some point their ire would be focused more on the wealthy who buy their way into university and less on black and Latino students. But sadly, if your posting history is a representative view within your ethnicity, their ire stays on the wrong target.

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Old 09-06-2019, 12:43 PM
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How would one go about “pandering” to Asian-Americans? Another way to ask this question: What policy issues are of specific concern to Asian-Americans that are being ignored by progressives?
By and large, affirmative action. Many (although certainly not all) Asian-Americans oppose affirmative action, because they see it as a way to suppress Asian admissions (although Asians are overrepresented at many universities at a macro level, when it comes to the individual level, there is often a clear double standard whereby Asians have to score significantly higher on the SAT than other race groups in order to have the same chance of admission.)

By and large, most progressives/liberals are in favor of affirmative action.


Many Chinese-Americans have rallied on WeChat (one of the most-used messaging apps in the world) to fight against affirmative action.

Last edited by Velocity; 09-06-2019 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:16 PM
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By and large, affirmative action. Many (although certainly not all) Asian-Americans oppose affirmative action, because they see it as a way to suppress Asian admissions (although Asians are overrepresented at many universities at a macro level, when it comes to the individual level, there is often a clear double standard whereby Asians have to score significantly higher on the SAT than other race groups in order to have the same chance of admission.)

By and large, most progressives/liberals are in favor of affirmative action.

Yes, and my point is these Asian-Americans have a misplaced focus on Affirmative Action. If universities ceased factoring in racial and ethnic diversity in their admissions process, Asian-Americans would still be discriminated against. Legacy admissions and other processes that favor the rich over the non-rich make this a given, as summed up in this article.
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:22 PM
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Yes, and my point is these Asian-Americans have a misplaced focus on Affirmative Action. If universities ceased factoring in racial and ethnic diversity in their admissions process, Asian-Americans would still be discriminated against. Legacy admissions and other processes that favor the rich over the non-rich make this a given, as summed up in this article.
That's the thing. YOU'RE the one that thinks this is about affirmative action. Asians think it's about anti-asian discrimination. We saw how WHITE enrollment at top schools dropped after they went race blind in California. Percentagewise, it hurt the blacks more but in absolute numbers, asians were losing more seats to less qualified whites than less qualified blacks. Asians were not up in arms when they found out that they had to be more competitive than blacks to get into Harvard. that much has been clear for decades and we were cool with it. It was the new information that WHITE students were more likely to be admitted than asians that upset us.

YOU'RE the ones that think that fighting anti-asian discrimination is an attack on affirmative action. We think its fighting anti-asian discrimination and if it reveals that some universities are hiding behind affirmative action to disguise their anti-asian discrimination well then shame on them, not us.
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Old 09-07-2019, 09:24 AM
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asians were losing more seats to less qualified whites than less qualified blacks.
This is telling. As if school admissions should be some rack-and-stack measure of qualifications.
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Old 09-06-2019, 01:09 PM
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How would one go about “pandering” to Asian-Americans? Another way to ask this question: What policy issues are of specific concern to Asian-Americans that are being ignored by progressives?
Stopping taking the side of colleges engaging in anti-asian discrimination. If we saw these sort of disparities in objective criteria and subjective results the left would be screaming bloody murder. But instead it seems to be happy to toss asian kids under the bus to prevent the possibility that somewhere down the line it might pose a threat to affirmative action for the kids of more politically powerful minorities.

Quote:
What does conservatism offer Asian-Americans who desire “equality of opportunity”? Conservatives support systems that favor affluent whites over others, and they’ve showed no sign of stopping this. As much as Affirmative Action comes up in discussions about Asian-Americans, you would think at some point their ire would be focused more on the wealthy who buy their way into university and less on black and Latino students. But sadly, if your posting history is a representative view within your ethnicity, their ire stays on the wrong target.
Asian americans generally support affirmative action. We simply don't think discrimination against asians is a necessary element of affirmative action.

Why liberals defending anti-asian discrimination?
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:11 PM
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Stopping taking the side of colleges engaging in anti-asian discrimination. If we saw these sort of disparities in objective criteria and subjective results the left would be screaming bloody murder. But instead it seems to be happy to toss asian kids under the bus to prevent the possibility that somewhere down the line it might pose a threat to affirmative action for the kids of more politically powerful minorities.



Asian americans generally support affirmative action. We simply don't think discrimination against asians is a necessary element of affirmative action.

Why liberals defending anti-asian discrimination?
You realize that affirmative action has to, by its intrinsic nature, discriminate?
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:53 PM
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You realize that affirmative action has to, by its intrinsic nature, discriminate?
Yes. Of course. I think asian americans see some value in diversity and definitely see the value of restorative justice.

It's bad enough that the baizuo think its OK to have asian kids pay for 4 centuries of black oppression by white people. The evidence indicates that the current anti-asian system discriminates against asians in favor of white!
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:05 PM
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Yes. Of course. I think asian americans see some value in diversity and definitely see the value of restorative justice.

It's bad enough that the baizuo think its OK to have asian kids pay for 4 centuries of black oppression by white people. The evidence indicates that the current anti-asian system discriminates against asians in favor of white!
it keeps coming down to Asians losing out to black people, doesn’t it? Don’t know how many times it needs to be pointed out that highly qualified Asians are losing out to less qualified students period (regardless of race), but your rhetoric keeps singling out the blacks. Do you have an easier envisioning an underserving black student than an underserving white one? Like, it totally fucks up your own appeal for anti-racism when you do this.
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Old 09-06-2019, 01:45 PM
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What policy issues are of specific concern to Asian-Americans that are being ignored by progressives?
Discrimination against Asian-Americans by prestige universities is the big obvious point right now.

Asian candidates today are treated exactly like Jewish candidates were earlier in the 20th century. Harvard has already been caught putting a heavy thumb on the scale to favor other groups. That's what the big lawsuit is about. I have no idea the legal validity of the lawsuit, but Harvard was shown to be using adverse "personality" scores -- as judged by people who had not even necessarily met the candidates -- to weigh against the stronger "objective" measures in order to dump the applications of (apparently boring) Asian kids in favor of other groups.

This is a source of serious rage. And understandably so. This is outright discrimination against a minority group, but my feeling here (perhaps wrong?) is that relatively few on the left care about it.

It's all well and good to say that Asians are "over-represented" at US universities based on their proportion of the overall population, as another poster has tried to argue, but when controlling for "objective" measures, it's glaringly obvious that the Asian kids of identical or even superior accomplishment are very likely to be passed over for a kid who belongs to a racial grouping that has better "personality" scores. This includes, as you have indicated, the kids at expensive private schools who play rich-personality-sports like lacrosse or crew.

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What does conservatism offer Asian-Americans who desire “equality of opportunity”? Conservatives support systems that favor affluent whites over others, and they’ve showed no sign of stopping this.
This is completely and totally true.

But politics can change over time. "We don't have to do anything about this, because the Other Group is not doing anything about this" is not necessarily a solid long-term strategy.

With that said, I agree entirely with you that the Rich-White-Sports candidates seem like a nice, plump target here. But there are political undercurrents to that (of course!) and there are other posters here on the SDMB who know an enormous amount about that topic. I don't personally know what the best plan here would be. But I really don't think it should be "nothing". There's a legitimate grievance here. An entire group of people is being forced to play the game with a much more stringent set of rules, based solely on their ethnicity, and they have every justification to be upset about that.
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:27 PM
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With that said, I agree entirely with you that the Rich-White-Sports candidates seem like a nice, plump target here. But there are political undercurrents to that (of course!) and there are other posters here on the SDMB who know an enormous amount about that topic. I don't personally know what the best plan here would be. But I really don't think it should be "nothing". There's a legitimate grievance here. An entire group of people is being forced to play the game with a much more stringent set of rules, based solely on their ethnicity, and they have every justification to be upset about that.
Too many liberals think of stopping anti-asian discrimination in terms of being anti-affirmative action. In their minds they are making a choice between blacks/hispanics and asians and the obvious choice to them is blacks/hispanics. This is a false choice but it is interesting that when they felt they had to choose between being fair or showing favor to politically powerful racial groups, they chose the politically powerful racial groups.

Of course things like legacy admissions and athletic preferences are bullshit. I think the lawsuit against harvard specifically lists the elimination of these things as ways to improve diversity.

There is a magnet high school in Northern Virginia called Thomas Jefferson high school of science and technology (TJHSST). They have majority asian population and one of the more successful "crew" programs in the state. The kids on that team do not come from homes with traditions of rowing in crew but they adapted.

The athletic preferences at ivy league colleges are overwhelmingly in sports that are not really accessible to immigrants and minorities. It is an avenue for perpetuating a continuity in the skin tone at some schools.

As an interesting aside: The admission to TJHSST was largely determined by a score on a single exam. The school was predominantly white. Then the asians showed up and started taking more and more of the seats and before you knew it it was predominantly asian. THIS is when the county developed the political will to do something about the atrociously low black and hispanic population at the school. I'm not saying that the folks who pushed it were suddenly concerned about black and hispanic representation. I think it is more likely that the folks who were standing in their way suddenly lost interest in standing in their way.

They added all sorts of subjective criteria in an effort to improve URM admissions and the school ended up admitting a whiter richer and dumber student body. It turns out that affluent white parents were better at navigating complicated admissions processes than asian immigrant parents.

They reverted back to a mostly test based admissions process and have a primarily asian student body with little to no URM representation.
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