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  #351  
Old 03-22-2019, 03:53 PM
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Let's go back to the original comment you made, in which you accused Omar of being antisemitic (not to be confused with anti-Zionist), and further added that 'most people are' antisemitic. That hardly seems like a fair statement, and yet you're presumably complaining about how unfairly Zionists and Jews are treated. You want to come on here with a persecution complex and then claim high ground when people throw it back at you. Well, tough bleep. You actually are a perfect illustration of what I've been saying, which is that in American political discourse, criticism toward Israel and political Zionism are often (intentionally, IMO) conflated with being anti-Jewish. If someone is an asshole to a Jew for being a Jew, that's being antisemitic. But antisemitism isn't whatever you say it is.
I don't have a better word for it than antisemitic. The western world is set up so that Jews are I herently the other and at a disadvantage because of it.

Most people are a little prejudiced in their thinking about the Jewish people and that doesn't always manifest in assholery. It manifests in people who are clearly Christian claiming to be half Jewish, and people needing there to be Jewish Christmas songs, and phrases like Jude-Christian, or people constantly conflating Moses's role in Judaism with Jesus's in Christianity, or people telling me that I don't really look Jewish they couldn't even tell, or people introducing me at parties and subtlety working it into conversation that I'm Jewish apropos of nothing really. I am reminded on a daily basis by the world I live in, once Los Angeles California now Suburban Philadelphia, that I am not part of the in group.

Im not crying about it, I'm not actually upset by it, this is just reality. The way that the world is also anti left handed people. But I don't have a less loaded word to describe it because while the world works in shades of grey (my original flipping point) language usually does not.
  #352  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:01 PM
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Also, what you missed was me saying that I still like Omar regardless. People are flawed. I like that she seemed to have been willing to acknowledge in the Daily Show that she might be unconsciously playing into an antisemitic system that she didn't notice because it's everywhere

A little more of that in this thread would be nice.

Last edited by NAF1138; 03-22-2019 at 04:02 PM.
  #353  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:03 PM
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I don't have a better word for it than antisemitic. The western world is set up so that Jews are I herently the other and at a disadvantage because of it.

Most people are a little prejudiced in their thinking about the Jewish people and that doesn't always manifest in assholery. It manifests in people who are clearly Christian claiming to be half Jewish, and people needing there to be Jewish Christmas songs, and phrases like Jude-Christian, or people constantly conflating Moses's role in Judaism with Jesus's in Christianity, or people telling me that I don't really look Jewish they couldn't even tell, or people introducing me at parties and subtlety working it into conversation that I'm Jewish apropos of nothing really. I am reminded on a daily basis by the world I live in, once Los Angeles California now Suburban Philadelphia, that I am not part of the in group.

Im not crying about it, I'm not actually upset by it, this is just reality. The way that the world is also anti left handed people. But I don't have a less loaded word to describe it because while the world works in shades of grey (my original flipping point) language usually does not.
I actually agree with much of what you wrote above. I agree with you that, to varying degrees, the world probably is antisemitic. I can't disagree with that, in the same way that the Western world (particular in a country like ours that was founded on racism) is also probably anti-Muslim and basically anti-non-white Christian. I cannot fundamentally disagree that there's a shit ton of real antisemitism in the West, including the US.

However, in the same way this existential and pervasive bias doesn't preclude me from criticizing some aspects of religious, ethnic, national, and local cultures, I submit that the existence of antisemitism doesn't preclude me from criticizing Zionism and Israel.

Last edited by asahi; 03-22-2019 at 04:04 PM.
  #354  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:09 PM
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However, in the same way this existential and pervasive bias doesn't preclude me from criticizing some aspects of religious, ethnic, national, and local cultures, I submit that the existence of antisemitism doesn't preclude me from criticizing Zionism and Israel.
It certainly doesn't, but it also doesn't require you to use bigoted generalizations, or preclude others from calling you out when you use bigoted generalizations.
  #355  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:17 PM
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It certainly doesn't, but it also doesn't require you to use bigoted generalizations, or preclude others from calling you out when you use bigoted generalizations.
Fair enough, I don't mind people calling me out if they think I'm using bigoted generalizations. I acknowledge that my initial post today was a bit harsh, but I felt like I was responding in kind to a comment that NAF made up-thread. If I understand him correctly, he seems to think that I might have misconstrued what he meant, which might be true. I'm sorry - I don't always go back and re-read every post, and it's possible that I might have misunderstood what he meant by that.

But I stand by much of what I've said in this thread. All one needs to do is to look at the Bibi Netanyahu government and look how horribly he's treating those who are not God's chosen ones. It is not even remotely disputable that what he's doing is in contravention to our own values, of course in the era of Trump, maybe I need to reevaluate that.
  #356  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:47 PM
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You should meditate.
  #357  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:20 PM
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It certainly doesn't, but it also doesn't require you to use bigoted generalizations, or preclude others from calling you out when you use bigoted generalizations.
Would you be saying that if the subject was another country's actions? Or is Israel the only one with the privilege of hiding behind that all-too-easy accusation?
  #358  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:21 PM
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Would you be saying that if the subject was another country's actions? Or is Israel the only one with the privilege of hiding behind that all-too-easy accusation?
No idea what you're talking about. I was challenging very specific language used in a post, not criticism in general.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-22-2019 at 08:22 PM.
  #359  
Old 03-22-2019, 09:34 PM
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You should meditate.
I should.

But if I were living the life of a Palestinian in Israel, I wouldn't be able to. Most Americans here have no idea what's going on in Israel, and they assume that it's overrun with terrorists. In reality, Israel is terrorizing the Arabs.
  #360  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:15 PM
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I've been following along this discussion and I am genuinely interested in what actions are being taken that you label "Israeli genocide of Arabs"
LOL! Where do I start...

Do I start with the displacement of nearly a million Arabs during the 1948 war, Gaza, West Bank, Golan? Where do I start, and where does it end?
  #361  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:16 PM
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Before this thread, I didn't.
Well you're another ignorant American, so no offense, but your opinion doesn't count.
  #362  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:53 PM
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Well you're another ignorant American, so no offense, but your opinion doesn't count.
"No offense, but" is one of those statements like, "I'm not racist, but" that's always, always wrong.

Your basis for calling me an ignorant American is...lacking. We'll leave it there.
  #363  
Old 03-22-2019, 11:13 PM
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"No offense, but" is one of those statements like, "I'm not racist, but" that's always, always wrong.

Your basis for calling me an ignorant American is...lacking. We'll leave it there.
Study some geography and history, mate.

We can come back and have this discussion again when ye do.
  #364  
Old 03-22-2019, 11:14 PM
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Study some geography and history, mate.

We can come back and have this discussion again when ye do.
  #365  
Old 03-24-2019, 03:09 AM
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Don't worry. He will teach you. Remember?
  #366  
Old 03-29-2019, 05:51 PM
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This Is a very biased source, but if true, is rather damning:
https://freebeacon.com/issues/omar-h...ied-to-terror/

Democratic freshman Rep. Ilhan Omar (D., Minn.) has been holding a series of secret fundraisers with groups that have been tied to the support of terrorism, appearances that have been closed to the press and hidden from public view.

The content of these speeches, given to predominately Muslim audiences, remains unknown, prompting some of Omar's critics to express concern about the type of rhetoric she is using before these paying audiences, particularly in light of the lawmaker's repeated use of anti-Semitic tropes in public.

Omar recently spoke in Florida at a private event hosted by Islamic Relief, a charity organization long said to have deep ties to groups that advocate terrorism against Israel. Over the weekend, she will appear at another private event in California that is hosted by CAIR-CA PAC, a political action committee affiliated with the Council on American Islamic Relations, or CAIR a group that was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in a massive terror-funding incident.


Islamic relief is indeed alleged to fund Terrorism thru Hamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_to_terrorism
  #367  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:56 PM
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Omar recently spoke in Florida at a private event hosted by Islamic Relief, a charity organization long said to have deep ties to groups that advocate terrorism against Israel.
Who has long said that organization has deep ties to groups that advocate terrorism against Israel?
  #368  
Old 03-29-2019, 08:04 PM
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Who has long said that organization has deep ties to groups that advocate terrorism against Israel?

I gave you the wiki link.

But here's more:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...land-jhrmgvml6
lslamic Relief Worldwide (IRW), a Muslim charity that has been branded a terrorist organisation by the United Arab Emirates (UAE), has established a registered branch in Ireland.

The international charity, founded in 1984 in the United Kingdom, insists it has no links to terrorism, but it was banned in 2014 by the UAE because of its perceived links to the Muslim Brotherhood, whose brand of Islam is seen as a threat by the royal families of the Gulf.

Israel banned it from the West Bank in the same year after accusing it of being a source of funding for Hamas, the Palestinian terror group.

HSBC ended its banking links with the charity after concerns that cash aid could end up with terrorist groups.


https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy....d-us-refugees/
The largest U.S. Muslim Charity, which has been linked to terrorism finance, is now playing a role in helping to settle refugees from terror torn Syria.
  #369  
Old 03-30-2019, 08:27 AM
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These accusations are based on, well, what sort of facts exactly?
  #370  
Old 03-30-2019, 02:29 PM
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These accusations are based on, well, what sort of facts exactly?
Look, many governments and orgs have said that " charity" has sent funds to Hamas to support terrorism. I have given you multiple cites. At this point in time, you will have to show that they dont.
  #371  
Old 03-30-2019, 02:40 PM
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Look, many governments and orgs have said that " charity" has sent funds to Hamas to support terrorism. I have given you multiple cites. At this point in time, you will have to show that they dont.
What facts are these accusations against Omar based on? As far as I can see, the only supposed evidence provided is that some Breitbart-esque hack site says that Omar might have secretly said some unknown words to groups that may have included ties to some of these groups. That seems like a pretty damn weak set of "facts" to base an accusation on.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-30-2019 at 02:40 PM.
  #372  
Old 03-30-2019, 02:44 PM
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What facts are these accusations against Omar based on? As far as I can see, the only supposed evidence provided is that some Breitbart-esque hack site says that Omar might have secretly said some unknown words to groups that may have included ties to some of these groups. That seems like a pretty damn weak set of "facts" to base an accusation on.
I agreed that that cite is biased. But it is absolutely true that that "charity" has been rated as ties to terrorism.

I have no idea if Omar actually gave those talks.
  #373  
Old 03-30-2019, 03:25 PM
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I agreed that that cite is biased. But it is absolutely true that that "charity" has been rated as ties to terrorism.

I have no idea if Omar actually gave those talks.
Doing more fact checking, yes she gave those talks. However, she supported Islamic Relief USA, not Islamic Relief Worldwide. Altho The USA org is related to the worldwide "charity", the USA charity has not been linked in any way to terrorism.

So that link exaggerated and conflated two groups, that while related are not the same.
  #374  
Old 03-31-2019, 08:22 AM
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I have given you multiple cites. At this point in time, you will have to show that they dont.
You have given cites that there have been accusations. That is not in question. The question is the facts those accusations are based on. And?
  #375  
Old 03-31-2019, 08:49 AM
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Doing more fact checking, yes she gave those talks. However, she supported Islamic Relief USA, not Islamic Relief Worldwide. Altho The USA org is related to the worldwide "charity", the USA charity has not been linked in any way to terrorism.

So that link exaggerated and conflated two groups, that while related are not the same.
One thing I do to avoid this sort of mistake is not to use terrible cites at all. Don't even offer them in an "I dunno if it's true, but people are saying...." sense. Terrible cites are terrible cites.
  #376  
Old 03-31-2019, 10:31 AM
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asahi:

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Do I start with the displacement of nearly a million Arabs during the 1948 war, Gaza, West Bank, Golan? Where do I start, and where does it end?
You could start with looking up "genocide" in a dictionary, and it ends when you realize that not only have the Israelis done nothing remotely resembling genocide, but that Arabs who live in Israel have more rights, freedom and economic power than those in other Arab nations, and until the first Intifada started, this was true of those living in the West Bank and Gaza as well.
  #377  
Old 03-31-2019, 10:35 AM
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It's odd how America goes nuts over a few (honest) words, but systematic murder <crickets>
Some people are offended by the dumbest ****
  #378  
Old 04-08-2019, 04:37 PM
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This weekend:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-minister.html

How many of the conservatives who blew a gasket over Omar's comments will say anything about this?

Last edited by Modesty Blaise; 04-08-2019 at 04:38 PM.
  #379  
Old 04-08-2019, 05:06 PM
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This weekend:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-minister.html

How many of the conservatives who blew a gasket over Omar's comments will say anything about this?
The messed-up thing is that Rep. Omar did not accuse American Jews as a group of having dual loyalty. Her target was only Senate Republicans. Here we have Trump not only implying that American Jews have dual loyalty, but he is also implying they have singular loyalty.

His statement is much worse. The Dems and Republicans who crapped their pants over what Rep. Omar said should be having a fit now, but no. He gets yet another mulligan because we're all relieved he didn't slip up and call anyone a "money-grubbing hebe".

I look forward to the day when there are no more blatantly unfair double standards like this in government.
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  #380  
Old 04-08-2019, 05:40 PM
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This weekend:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-minister.html

How many of the conservatives who blew a gasket over Omar's comments will say anything about this?
The stupid. It hurts. Apparently trump can do anything at all and get away with it.

"dey goggles, dey do nuttink"
  #381  
Old 04-09-2019, 12:43 AM
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nm

Last edited by Monty; 04-09-2019 at 12:44 AM.
  #382  
Old 04-09-2019, 07:30 AM
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The messed-up thing is that Rep. Omar did not accuse American Jews as a group of having dual loyalty. Her target was only Senate Republicans. Here we have Trump not only implying that American Jews have dual loyalty, but he is also implying they have singular loyalty.

His statement is much worse. The Dems and Republicans who crapped their pants over what Rep. Omar said should be having a fit now, but no. He gets yet another mulligan because we're all relieved he didn't slip up and call anyone a "money-grubbing hebe".

I look forward to the day when there are no more blatantly unfair double standards like this in government.
The problem is Trump has been so blatantly antisemitic for so long that it just doesn't surprise people anymore. And conservatives then wrap themselves in the cloak of "but his grandkids are Jewish, he can't be an antisemite" which is bullshit and ignores how antisemitism works. This though circles back to my feeling that essentially all gentiles are a little antisemitic.
  #383  
Old 04-09-2019, 07:47 AM
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Trump has clearly and publicly said, unapologetically, many more anti-semitic things than Omar, with no challenge at all from Republicans in congress and the senate.
  #384  
Old 04-09-2019, 08:14 AM
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It just keeps getting better.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/s...76878604214273

Now Omar Ilhan is antisemitic for... calling Stephen Miller a white nationalist. I wonder - are Stephen Miller's childhood rabbi and uncle both antisemites as well? Jesus fucking christ this is ridiculous.
  #385  
Old 04-10-2019, 04:36 AM
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This weekend:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-minister.html

How many of the conservatives who blew a gasket over Omar's comments will say anything about this?
Honestly? I felt like puking when I heard that.
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:01 AM
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Honestly? I feel like puking knowing that Israel's population seems poised to re-elect a Zionist tyrant who proudly proclaims that Israel is a Jewish nation (only). This was Zionism's ultimate end, so it's hardly surprising. But of course we can't talk about reality without being labeled anti-Jewish. America's the land of free speech, unless one is speaking about Zionism.
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:19 AM
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The NY Post appears to be trying to fan the flames of hatred against Omar: https://twitter.com/harrysiegel/stat...13105884172289
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:58 AM
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Honestly? I feel like puking knowing that Israel's population seems poised to re-elect a Zionist tyrant who proudly proclaims that Israel is a Jewish nation (only). This was Zionism's ultimate end, so it's hardly surprising. But of course we can't talk about reality without being labeled anti-Jewish. America's the land of free speech, unless one is speaking about Zionism.
So, I feel the same way about the election as you do and yet this post pissed me off and I'm trying to figure out why.

I think it's the use of the word Zionist. For so long Zionist has been used as a slur to tar the Jewish people as a whole. Going back to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion hoax. It has a lot of ugly baggage when used the way you use it. And this is tricky because I consider myself a Zionist, but I suspect we are on the same side of almost (but not quite) every issue having to do with Israel.

Israel is the only reason a lot of my family is alive right now. The existence of Zionism in the 1920s gave my grandfather's older brother and mother a place to flee to that would not turn them back. My Grandfather got turned back because his father tried to come to America with him instead. They ended up in Dachau.

I believe that having a physical nation for the Jewish people is a good thing. I believe that there needs to be one. The western world is too wrapped up in Christianity to be able to navigate the tangle of interweaving cultural and religious identities of Judaism. To me, and to all the non right wing nut bags that I know, that's what Zionism is. It's Kibbutz, it's safety, it's an ability to establish an identity that is understood on the world stage the way it is understood what a German is or what a Turk is or what an Egyptian is. My father, the child of that Holocaust survivor is literally shopping for homes in Spain right now because he no longer feels safe in America. Sadly he does not feel that Israel is where he could be safe either. I don't blame him. I feel like the right has, possibly irreparably, broken the ideal of Israel that could be.

So when you say Zionist as though it is synonymous with genocidal bigot, that hurts, because it says to me that the only way that I am allowed to have an identity in your eyes is to take away someone else's. That you will not allow both to coexist. You say it's the choice of the Zionists but it feels like the choice is being made for me and it's not a choice I want. But I don't get to pick anymore.

So, I understand this is off topic. I'm happy to take this elsewhere. But I'm asking that you reconsider some of your rhetoric.

Last edited by NAF1138; 04-11-2019 at 10:01 AM.
  #389  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:03 AM
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The NY Post appears to be trying to fan the flames of hatred against Omar: https://twitter.com/harrysiegel/stat...13105884172289
I really wish she would get a decent publicist and stop speaking off the cuff for about 6 months.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:17 AM
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The NY Post appears to be trying to fan the flames of hatred against Omar: https://twitter.com/harrysiegel/stat...13105884172289
Another Murdoch rag. No cause for surprise, or even outrage at this point.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:53 AM
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Speaking of which: Fox News host questions Ilhan Omar's loyalty: 'Have to wonder if she's an American first'

Isn't that what she got pilloried for antisemitism over? Accusing people of not being loyal to America first?
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:15 AM
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Speaking of which: Fox News host questions Ilhan Omar's loyalty: 'Have to wonder if she's an American first'

Isn't that what she got pilloried for antisemitism over? Accusing people of not being loyal to America first?
Yes, but our world is sad and we just accept that Fox News is anti Islam.

We live in the darkest time-line.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:18 AM
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Speaking of which: Fox News host questions Ilhan Omar's loyalty: 'Have to wonder if she's an American first'

Isn't that what she got pilloried for antisemitism over? Accusing people of not being loyal to America first?
Remember when the president implied that a judge couldn't be impartial due to him being "Mexican", even though he was born and raised in the States?

The Right was silent then too.

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Old 04-11-2019, 02:24 PM
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I really wish she would get a decent publicist and stop speaking off the cuff for about 6 months.
She and AOC are smart but not wise. They havent yet realized how to not shoot their mouth off in public off the cuff. Hopefully they will figure this out.
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Old 04-11-2019, 02:59 PM
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I don't even see this latest supposed outrage as anything but estremely silly nonsense. Just about any human event can be described accurately with the words Omar used, and I see no reason to believe she had any intention to minimize the tragedy of 9/11.
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Old 04-11-2019, 03:02 PM
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I really wish she would get a decent publicist and stop speaking off the cuff for about 6 months.
...its a shame that in the face of lies, misinformation and propaganda that clearly puts Representative Ilhan Omar in the crosshairs, you choose to blame her for "speaking off the cuff" instead of the paper that published this complete and utter filth. If it wasn't crystal clear at the start of this thread that anything that Ilhan says would be twisted and distorted: then that should be crystal clear now. If faced with the option of "being silenced" or being allowed to say what she thinks: I'm in favour of letting her say what she thinks. Because to argue otherwise is to hand victory to a group of people determined to control the narrative. And we can't afford to do that right now.
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Old 04-11-2019, 03:31 PM
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I don't even see this latest supposed outrage as anything but estremely silly nonsense. Just about any human event can be described accurately with the words Omar used, and I see no reason to believe she had any intention to minimize the tragedy of 9/11.
I agree. I'm not a fan of hers, but this is clearly an attack on her based on her ethnicity, plain and simple.
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Old 04-11-2019, 03:37 PM
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...its a shame that in the face of lies, misinformation and propaganda that clearly puts Representative Ilhan Omar in the crosshairs, you choose to blame her for "speaking off the cuff" instead of the paper that published this complete and utter filth. If it wasn't crystal clear at the start of this thread that anything that Ilhan says would be twisted and distorted: then that should be crystal clear now. If faced with the option of "being silenced" or being allowed to say what she thinks: I'm in favour of letting her say what she thinks. Because to argue otherwise is to hand victory to a group of people determined to control the narrative. And we can't afford to do that right now.
Yeah sure. But when you know that the other side is going to twist everything you say why give them ammo? This was avoidable. The Post is a rag. Fox News are assholes. But we aren't going to change that and they DO have power because they are the state propoganda machine now. Why make their life easier?

It's politics. Play the game a little.

Last edited by NAF1138; 04-11-2019 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 04-11-2019, 03:59 PM
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Yeah sure. But when you know that the other side is going to twist everything you say why give them ammo? This was avoidable. The Post is a rag. Fox News are assholes. But we aren't going to change that and they DO have power because they are the state propoganda machine now. Why make their life easier?
...by choosing not to condemn the NY Post, even when called out on it, you make their life easier for the likes of the Fox news and the Post. This wasn't "avoidable." This was inevitable. Because there are too many people like you who stand on the sidelines and shrug your shoulders in the face of incredible bigotry.

Quote:
It's politics. Play the game a little.
It isn't "politics." Its hate. Its evil. That you can't recognize this is the problem. There should be zero tolerance for this utter drivel posted by the Post. But you are like just "meh." It isn't a fucking game. 50 Muslims lost their lives here last month because people are treating this like a fucking game. Get off the sidelines and choose a side.
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Old 04-11-2019, 04:22 PM
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...by choosing not to condemn the NY Post, even when called out on it, you make their life easier for the likes of the Fox news and the Post. This wasn't "avoidable." This was inevitable. Because there are too many people like you who stand on the sidelines and shrug your shoulders in the face of incredible bigotry.



It isn't "politics." Its hate. Its evil. That you can't recognize this is the problem. There should be zero tolerance for this utter drivel posted by the Post. But you are like just "meh." It isn't a fucking game. 50 Muslims lost their lives here last month because people are treating this like a fucking game. Get off the sidelines and choose a side.
It's a message board post. I can't be this angry all the time anymore. They won. I'm trying to figure out how to move to Canada. Should the response be meh? No it should not. But getting angry at the post being racist is like getting angry at a klan member using the N word. It's just not that surprising.

My people died because of the propoganda machine too. I am dealing with the fall out from the tree of life massacre on a daily basis that was a direct result of the administration using HIAS, an organization I actively raise money for, as a boogy man. The name of my synagogue was literally on the shooters hit list. Tree of life was just closer.

Back off a bit. You don't know me. This is an internet message board. Take a beat.
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