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Old 11-12-2019, 10:31 AM
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Should you expect to know what genitals a person has before a first date?


A writer to a Slate advice column asks if there is a polite way to determine if a person has genitals compatible to es sexual orientation and gender before asking for/going on a date. Slate's columnists answer no.

https://slate.com/human-interest/201...le-dating.html

From the question:

Quote:
I’m really not interested in playing with a penis. ... I’d like to find an appropriate way to ask if someone who says she is a trans woman (I usually see “ts” somewhere in the online profile) is pre-op or post-op. I hope this doesn’t make me a terrible person....
From the answer:

Quote:
“There’s also some trans women, as there are cis women, who love to peg their male partners, and that’s OK too,” she added. “I think more than anything being forward [with] what you’re looking for sexually and realizing what genitalia someone has doesn’t define how they have sex. If you’re into a girl, be into her, and if you’re both into each other, I’m sure you’ll find some way to come.”

Rich: Many good points made there, particularly the last one. The writer says that he doesn’t want to play with a penis. But he doesn’t have to, even if one is present.

Stoya: Exactly. Sex can be so very many activities. Nobody’s penis has to be involved for everyone to have a great time.

Rich: Even if the presence of another penis is a hard boundary for the writer, I think the general consensus is that asking a trans person about their parts is rude. The best he can do is wait for them to tell him. Some people are upfront about what’s going on down there in hookup scenarios. While that may cause immediate rejection, it can also mitigate risk so that the person they’re hooking up with doesn’t accuse them of trickery, or even worse, lash out in a fit of trans panic.

Stoya: Asking people about their genitals is rude, period....


I’m having difficulty putting myself in to the shoes of a person who is so off put by genital configuration.

...

He’s looking for a safe way to bring up the thing he should probably not bring up.
I'm confused. Isn't the whole point about freedom of identity and gender and sexual orientation about being able to make your own choices? These columnists seem to be suggesting that you should date anyone regardless of gender, sex, sexual preference, etc., and just be willing to find out down the line whether you're fundamentally compatible.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
A writer to a Slate advice column asks if there is a polite way to determine if a person has genitals compatible to es sexual orientation and gender before asking for/going on a date. Slate's columnists answer no.

https://slate.com/human-interest/201...le-dating.html

From the question:



From the answer:



I'm confused. Isn't the whole point about freedom of identity and gender and sexual orientation about being able to make your own choices? These columnists seem to be suggesting that you should date anyone regardless of gender, sex, sexual preference, etc., and just be willing to find out down the line whether you're fundamentally compatible.
I know I have A LOT to learn, and I'm trying - ever so slowly - through different discussions we have here. But this makes me feel like I have no idea about anything.

Especially this:

"ich: Many good points made there, particularly the last one. The writer says that he doesn’t want to play with a penis. But he doesn’t have to, even if one is present."

"Stoya: Exactly. Sex can be so very many activities. Nobody’s penis has to be involved for everyone to have a great time."
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:11 AM
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Sorry, this just seems to be saying "Hey, even if someone doesn't have the anatomy you are looking for when it comes to sex, you should just forget about that"

Right.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:13 AM
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I like the shape of classical female anatomy; it's a specifically sexual liking, and constitutes my earliest sexual feelings (or the earliest I have any awareness of at any rate), a disconcertingly naughty fascination for what I thought of, at that age, as the place girls pee from.

I am never going to complain that I have been "set up" or "misled" if it should turn out that a person I've been ostensibly flirting with, dating, or even making out with in some sense of the word turns out to have classical male anatomy instead. But I reserve the right to discontinue the sexual experimentations and I'm entitled to my disappointments and my aesthetic sexual tastes. I'm not saying that would be the outcome -- I've never been in such a situation where there was any kind of rapport or emotional intimacy or other connection that would give me reason to consider otherwise. But it seems likely that such would be my reaction, in all honesty.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
A writer to a Slate advice column asks if there is a polite way to determine if a person has genitals compatible to es sexual orientation and gender before asking for/going on a date. Slate's columnists answer no.

https://slate.com/human-interest/201...le-dating.html

From the question:



From the answer:



I'm confused. Isn't the whole point about freedom of identity and gender and sexual orientation about being able to make your own choices? These columnists seem to be suggesting that you should date anyone regardless of gender, sex, sexual preference, etc., and just be willing to find out down the line whether you're fundamentally compatible.

The real issue here is that writers have run out of things to write about so they B.S. for mortgage.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:23 AM
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Apparently, prefering oysters over snails is now a matter of morality, not taste. We are not only not permitted to prefer one over the other, we may not even differentiate between them.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:28 AM
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For me, it feels like it would be similar to the scenario where you get to know someone, things move on, and it turns out that their genitals, although of your preferred general type, are aesthetically unappealing to you, for some reason. That is, they are your preferred gender and there are no trans issues confounding your choice - you just find their uglies, ugly (or indeed any other aspect of their body) - What do you do in that situation?

Last edited by Mangetout; 11-12-2019 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:31 AM
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Apparently, prefering oysters over snails is now a matter of morality, not taste. We are not only not permitted to prefer one over the other, we may not even differentiate between them.
According to whom? Who the fuck is this Stoya and who gives a flying rat's ass what he/she has to say about anything on the subject?
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
I'm confused. Isn't the whole point about freedom of identity and gender and sexual orientation about being able to make your own choices? These columnists seem to be suggesting that you should date anyone regardless of gender, sex, sexual preference, etc., and just be willing to find out down the line whether you're fundamentally compatible.
I think this is the fallout of two different axioms. If you accept the premise that transwomen are women and you accept the premise that a straight man is attracted to women, then a straight man should be attracted to transwomen. And, as far as I know, this is more or less borne out by the experiences of straight transwomen who report that their partners are usually straight men, not gay men.

As much as I'd like to put this on straight people having hangups about sex, I know it's not a gay/straight divide because I know lots of gay men who refuse to date transmen. I think the whole thing is silly and reductive. I am attracted to men, not penises. And if you think that finding out someone you find attractive and sweet and caring has a penis instead of a vulva is a dealbreaker, I don't think you should call yourself straight, you should say you're a vulvaphile or whatever so that your potential partners know exactly why you're into them.

Last edited by Inner Stickler; 11-12-2019 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:36 AM
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I am sooo happy I'm in a long term relationship with someone who is likely to survive me.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:38 AM
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I don't think you should call yourself straight, you should say you're a vulvaphile or whatever so that your potential partners know exactly why you're into them.
Sure, I'll bite. For a while now I've thought of myself as a "straight man attracted to women." You're saying I should rephrase that as "a straight cis-man born with a penis attracted to cis-women born with a vulva." I guess I can live with that, except that I have this sneaking feeling that your post seems slightly pejorative about this point of view.

But once we have changed to the more verbose formulation, what have we actually changed?
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by WOOKINPANUB View Post
I know I have A LOT to learn, and I'm trying - ever so slowly - through different discussions we have here. But this makes me feel like I have no idea about anything.

Especially this:

"ich: Many good points made there, particularly the last one. The writer says that he doesn’t want to play with a penis. But he doesn’t have to, even if one is present."

"Stoya: Exactly. Sex can be so very many activities. Nobody’s penis has to be involved for everyone to have a great time."
The two commentators could be 21st century denizens of a new The Emperors New Clothes fairytale.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:42 AM
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I think this is the fallout of two different axioms. If you accept the premise that transwomen are women and you accept the premise that a straight man is attracted to women
Aren't we just playing around with terminology here?

You can, for example, say (A) that there are women and trans-women, and that they are both of the feminine gender, or you can say that (B) there are cis-women and trans-women, and they're both women.

Say it however you want, it might change our vocabulary, but it's not going to change my sexual preferences. I'm not going to start being attracted to trans-women just because rubric (B) classifies them as women.

Or is that what you think should happen? Do you think that straight men should start being attracted to both cis-women and trans-women, because, according to this particular classification they're both "women"?
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:50 AM
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I am attracted to men, not penises. And if you think that finding out someone you find attractive and sweet and caring has a penis instead of a vulva is a dealbreaker, I don't think you should call yourself straight, you should say you're a vulvaphile or whatever so that your potential partners know exactly why you're into them.
How about this, you be attracted to what you like, and I'll be attracted to what I like, and you can kindly shut the fuck up about what I should or shouldn't call myself.

Because, just like what the trans community wants, I can choose my sexual identity for myself without your personal (and pejorative) direction as to what label I should be required to use.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:53 AM
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Sure, I'll bite. For a while now I've thought of myself as a "straight man attracted to women." You're saying I should rephrase that as "a straight cis-man born with a penis attracted to cis-women born with a vulva." I guess I can live with that, except that I have this sneaking feeling that your post seems slightly pejorative about this point of view.

But once we have changed to the more verbose formulation, what have we actually changed?
I would prefer to leave it as "straight man attracted to women" but with the understanding that there is a small chance that said woman may have a penis, and not freak out or get weird about that. I admit, this may be a pipe dream. Not all people are as laidback as I am.

But I do think that this discussion is revealing a tension between cis allies and trans people. For me, the circle is easily squared. I accept that transmen are men and I am attracted to men in general therefore I am attracted to transmen in general. What's for dinner?

How would you resolve the tension? I don't remember what Ahunter3's specific beliefs are but based on his post I don't really know how else to classify him as 'attracted to ciswomen' and if we are going to start breaking down orientation into trans-exclusionary and trans-inclusionary hetero/homosexuality, then I think in this dating app world we live in, it's only fair to label yourself accurately so people know whether or not its even worth sending you a message on OKCupid and you don't get your heart broken because the woman you thought was going to be the love of your life is missing something integral to a fulfilling sex life for you.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:53 AM
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But if you're not going to start being attracted to trans-women, then it's not a problem; you won't find yourself in a situation where it matters.

If you begin to be attracted to someone who, shortly later in the exploration of the relationship, turns out, to your surprise, to be a trans-woman, I don't see how it's any different to being att4racted to a cis-woman and then discovering they have a weird bellybutton, or a mole shaped like snoopy, or eleven toes, or indeed, that whilst they were born genetically female, they have ambiguous, male-looking genitalia (it happens) and being put off by that, or any number of bodily discoveries

Last edited by Mangetout; 11-12-2019 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:56 AM
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If genitalia is a dealbreaker for someone, it's a dealbreaker for that someone. So it is perfectly reasonable to want to know in advance, to spare both parties any needless waste of time or energy.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:56 AM
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I would prefer to leave it as "straight man attracted to women" but with the understanding that there is a small chance that said woman may have a penis
But that's not what my preference is. Why is your preference to change my preference?
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:56 AM
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Yeah, that OP article is the worst sort of shit and is actually damaging to efforts to destigmatize nonbinaries. The fuck you mean messing with my junk doesn't have to be involved for everyone to have a good time? I mean, if we're at Six Flags or a concert I suppose that's true enough. But if it's time to bump uglies…does the author even know what sexual intercourse is? I think we're seeing some big time projection in the author.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:58 AM
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If a cis woman has prostetic breasts, is she obligated to inform potential suitors of this on the first date?

If a cis guy has a micro penis, is he obligated to inform potential suitors of this on the first day.

If someone has a lot of extra skin or horrific burn scars all over their body (but not their face), do they need to say something right away? Or can they let things progress until such a conversation becomes non-weird?

I don't know if opposite-sex genitalia fits in the same box as these other things. But I can see the logic in the notion that if other imperfections don't have to be disclosed right away, then it is fair game to delay talking about the kind of genitals a person has.

That said, I think if I were trans and I still possessed the genitalia I had been born with, I would find dates through a dating service so that I could target an audience who I know are OK with transgenderism and discordant sex-gender presentation. I wouldn't be putting myself out there on the wide open market because the risk of heartbreak would be too much for me to take.

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Old 11-12-2019, 11:58 AM
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If genitalia is a dealbreaker for someone, it's a dealbreaker for that someone. So it is perfectly reasonable to want to know in advance, to spare both parties any needless waste of time or energy.
I agree, but I also think it's perfectly reasonable to *not want to say* - trans complications aside, "What sort of genitals do you have" is a weird question for a first date, IMO
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:02 PM
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You cannot nag or scold someone into changing their sexual orientation (assuming someone considers an M-to-F to not be a "true" F, or vice versa.) It is ironic how many insist that gays and lesbians are who they are and cannot be cajoled or therapy'd into changing their sexual orientation, yet expect a straight heterosexual man to be scold-able into ignoring the fact that his partner exhibits, well, the genitalia of a man.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
I'm confused. Isn't the whole point about freedom of identity and gender and sexual orientation about being able to make your own choices? These columnists seem to be suggesting that you should date anyone regardless of gender, sex, sexual preference, etc., and just be willing to find out down the line whether you're fundamentally compatible.
Those aren't necessarily incompatible positions. They also aren't exactly the positions being taken by the columnists.

To the first, it's possible to believe that everyone should be free to express their gender or sexuality in whatever way they feel most comfortable with, while also believing that its important to experiment and try things that are a little outside of your comfort zone, because you might be surprised at what you find yourself liking.

The person writing in to the column is okay with dating trans women in general, and was totally down for sexy times with one particular trans woman until they got their clothes off and he saw she was pre-op. I don't think pointing out that he could still have had sexy times without having to do anything with her penis is necessarily asking him to "date anyone regardless of ... sexual preference." It's possible that's still a hard "no" for the dude, and that's okay - but that means that if he's still open to dating trans women, he's going to potentially find himself in a similar situation later on, because really, there is no way to ask about a trans woman's genitals without being an asshole.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:03 PM
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Do you think that straight men should start being attracted to both cis-women and trans-women, because, according to this particular classification they're both "women"?
Straight men are attracted to both cis and transwomen because as I mentioned before, it is usually straight men who date straight transwomen.

Quote:

You can, for example, say (A) that there are women and trans-women, and that they are both of the feminine gender, or you can say that (B) there are cis-women and trans-women, and they're both women.
I'm just saying that if you do consider transwomen to be women or of the feminine gender or whatever and that you are straight/attracted to women but NOT attracted to transwomen, then one of above statements is necessarily not true. Either you do not consider transwomen to be women (and therefore you can safely be straight/attracted to women without risking being attracted to a transwomen) or you are only attracted to ciswomen.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:03 PM
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Sure, I'll bite. For a while now I've thought of myself as a "straight man attracted to women." You're saying I should rephrase that as "a straight cis-man born with a penis attracted to cis-women born with a vulva." I guess I can live with that, except that I have this sneaking feeling that your post seems slightly pejorative about this point of view.
What I've been seeing online for the past few years is that saying that would make you transphobic, possibly even homophobic. It doesn't seem to be getting to much traction, but it's certainly there.
Luckily, the vast majority of the people out there wouldn't consider statements like 'I'm a male, interested in men' or 'I'm straight woman' to be any more out of the ordinary than "I like green olives" or "I'm 27 years old".

It seems to me, the people that say things like 'oh, you're a straight male but you wouldn't date a transexual woman, why not, are you transphobic?' are the people that are just looking for something to be angry about. If they weren't looking to pick a fight, they could probably understand the concept of not being sexually attracted to someone AND not having a problem with their existence. Unless the people saying these things are all actively pansexual (not just in name only) and are willing to date anyone at all, they really don't have a leg to stand on.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:06 PM
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But if it's time to bump uglies…does the author even know what sexual intercourse is? I think we're seeing some big time projection in the author.
Considering that one of them is a porn actress... yeah, probably.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:07 PM
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there is no way to ask about a trans woman's genitals without being an asshole.
But that's not some fundamental law of nature. It's a societal norm that people have agreed to accept, for now, and societal norms change all the time.

I've been in a society in which it's a norm for people to come out and ask you just out of curiosity what your income is, and how much you're paying for your house and your car, and if you have any debt, etc., and I've been in a society in which it's considered being an asshole. Is one or the other intrinsically correct?

Just as traditional society found ways to signal biological gender through different means, then we in the modern society could also do that. Or we could just say that it's an acceptable question and move on to making our choices.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:08 PM
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The problem with this whole trans issue (not just this, but in general,) is that you cannot expect surface logic to overcome deep, visceral instinct.


Imagine that someone has a phobia of spiders, and is terrified of arachnids. Then you take a tarantula and put it on his arm and say "Repeat after me: This is a butterfly, not a spider. This is a butterfly, not a spider....." Do you think he is going to be any less afraid of the 8-legged thing crawling on his arm?
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:09 PM
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On preview, never mind. The Slate article is trolling.

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Old 11-12-2019, 12:09 PM
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On preview, never mind. The Slate article is trolling.

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I've frequently wondered whether Slate's advice columns are faked.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:10 PM
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But that's not some fundamental law of nature. It's a societal norm that people have agreed to accept, for now, and societal norms change all the time.
Yes, and so what?
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:39 PM
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That said, I think if I were trans and I still possessed the genitalia I had been born with, I would find dates through a dating service so that I could target an audience who I know are OK with transgenderism and discordant sex-gender presentation. I wouldn't be putting myself out there on the wide open market because the risk of heartbreak would be too much for me to take.
This seems like the most rational and sensible way to go. If you're a trans person, you surely must be painfully aware of the kind of danger you'd be exposing yourself to if you were not very selective and honest about the kinds of partners you were seeking to attract.

To even subtly imply that trans people behave otherwise on any significant scale seems deliberately dishonest, possibly with some nefarious motives. Which makes me wonder if the authors of these kinds of articles are either concern trolling or exploiting their own sexual preference or fetish just for a story.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:45 PM
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This seems like the most rational and sensible way to go. If you're a trans person, you surely must be painfully aware of the kind of danger you'd be exposing yourself to if you were not very selective and honest about the kinds of partners you were seeking to attract.
In past threads similar to this one, it was mentioned that many transgender people do not want to put their status on dating sites, since they may not be "out" and may not want others to know that they are transgender.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:01 PM
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This seems like the most rational and sensible way to go. If you're a trans person, you surely must be painfully aware of the kind of danger you'd be exposing yourself to if you were not very selective and honest about the kinds of partners you were seeking to attract.
The guy writing the letter knew he was with a trans woman, so this really isn't a deception narrative. Presumably, the woman he was with assumed that "okay with a trans woman" equated to "okay with a penis," which is not an unfair assumption.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:08 PM
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Does one have a right to know what someone has in their pants? In a conventional binary world, no. Even if that person is somehow mutilated, it is not something that one needs to disclose right away. They are a person of a certain gender who will be attracted to a member of the opposite gender and rarely is a person perfect in every aspect. I dated a woman who had absolutely no breast or areolae development - none. She wore a padded bra. It was only revealed when we started to get intimate. To me it was a bit surprising, also a bit disappointing as I do like female breasts as they are very fun to play with, but overall not a factor in the relationship. I never felt she owed to tell me, it is who she is.

Last edited by kanicbird; 11-12-2019 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:10 PM
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The guy writing the letter knew he was with a trans woman, so this really isn't a deception narrative. Presumably, the woman he was with assumed that "okay with a trans woman" equated to "okay with a penis," which is not an unfair assumption.
Thanks. Missed that important detail.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:31 PM
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There's a few points I could go down in the list, and it's basically:

If you know you're dating a trans person, then you should know what possibilities that may entail. This isn't a surprise. So the guy posing the question makes you wonder why he didn't think of this to begin with.

Having dealbreakers about the state of someone's genitalia is normal, but probably shouldn't be broadcasted to the public.

Expecting a perfectly streamlined and efficient dating situation is unrealistic. Everyone has to go through the work of meeting people and discovering their compatibility, and what's in your pants is just one of many things on the list that may make or break a relationship. You gotta go through finding out about it naturally just like everything else, like finding out if they yell at waiters and chew with their mouth open.
  #38  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:42 PM
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I am sooo happy I'm in a long term relationship with someone who is likely to survive me.
This x1000.
  #39  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:20 PM
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Dates are about determining compatibility. If someone is really worried about the possibility of dating someone with their non-preferred below-the-belt physical features, they are free to ask potential dates. And those potential dates are free to decide that they are not compatible with someone who finds this so important that they insist on asking before the date, since that might be a sign of transphobia (the urgency and fear, not the preference).

I don't think there's any problem with having preferences for physical features of any type -- hair color/length/texture, height, build, etc., including what's in their pants. But if you're afraid that you might hold hands with, or hug, or kiss someone with the wrong "equipment", or you're afraid of what others might think, or have some other fear about the possibility of dating someone with something in their pants that you'd prefer they don't have, then IMO you should take a good long look at your own possible bigotries.

IOW, it's totally fine if you'd prefer not to date or have as intimate partners folks with certain physical features. But if you're afraid of the possibility of even dating such an individual, then you might have some deep-seated bigotries that, IMO, good folks should want to get past.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-12-2019 at 02:21 PM.
  #40  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:27 PM
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The guy writing the letter knew he was with a trans woman, so this really isn't a deception narrative. Presumably, the woman he was with assumed that "okay with a trans woman" equated to "okay with a penis," which is not an unfair assumption.
If he knew she was trans, this suggests they had established openness before physical intimacy began. So I’m surprised “pre-op or not” didn’t come up in conversation.

The reality is that people aren’t entitled to any private disclosures from dating partners. Forget about breasts and penises. Annual income, employment history, criminal background, and chronic health issues are all subjects that might go unrevealed until well into a relationship, if ever. What’s to be done about this? If someone doesn’t want any surprises about dealbreaker matters, the onus is on them to seek answers sooner rather than later.

On the other hand, it is just as foolish to not be upfront about something when the probability is high it would be your partner’s dealbreaker, especially if the truth will be discovered just as soon as sex begins. As the saying goes, when people hear hooves, they think horses not zebras. If you’re a women dating a man, you’re generally going to assume he has a standard male package, not a female’s. It would be one thing if there was no functional difference between “horses” and “zebras”, but that’s not true. There are most costs than benefits to not ensuring your dating partner knows your equipment defies expectation.
  #41  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Dates are about determining compatibility. If someone is really worried about the possibility of dating someone with their non-preferred below-the-belt physical features, they are free to ask potential dates. And those potential dates are free to decide that they are not compatible with someone who finds this so important that they insist on asking before the date, since that might be a sign of transphobia (the urgency and fear, not the preference).

I don't think there's any problem with having preferences for physical features of any type -- hair color/length/texture, height, build, etc., including what's in their pants. But if you're afraid that you might hold hands with, or hug, or kiss someone with the wrong "equipment", or you're afraid of what others might think, or have some other fear about the possibility of dating someone with something in their pants that you'd prefer they don't have, then IMO you should take a good long look at your own possible bigotries.

IOW, it's totally fine if you'd prefer not to date or have as intimate partners folks with certain physical features. But if you're afraid of the possibility of even dating such an individual, then you might have some deep-seated bigotries that, IMO, good folks should want to get past.
Did you ask your dates if they were bigots on the first outing? I'm pretty sure from your posting history that you would have been appalled at the notion of even dating such a person.
  #42  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:32 PM
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Did you ask your dates if they were bigots on the first outing? I'm pretty sure from your posting history that you would have been appalled at the notion of even dating such a person.
No to the first question. I recall a date I had 20 years ago (college) in which the young woman gave a pretty clear indication of racism just minutes into our date, and I made an excuse and left.

Yes, I would have avoided dating anyone I knew to be a bigot (when I was single -- I've been married for 10 years now). How about you? And do you disagree with anything I wrote?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-12-2019 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:47 PM
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No to the first question. I recall a date I had 20 years ago (college) in which the young woman gave a pretty clear indication of racism just minutes into our date, and I made an excuse and left.

Yes, I would have avoided dating anyone I knew to be a bigot (when I was single -- I've been married for 10 years now). How about you? And do you disagree with anything I wrote?
I'm looking to you as our paradigm of negotiating this thorny issue. So, you're on a hypothetical date and your companion gets pissed off at a black person in a bar and uses the biggest baddest racial epithet of them all. It is the big reveal of their racism. What do you do? How should this be handled differently from someone else out on a date and the big reveal of their companion's plumbing proves to be counter to what s/he expected and wanted? In either case, it comes down to "I'm not attracted to someone like you" when reduced to simplest terms.
  #44  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:51 PM
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I'm looking to you as our paradigm of negotiating this thorny issue. So, you're on a hypothetical date and your companion gets pissed off at a black person in a bar and uses the biggest baddest racial epithet of them all. It is the big reveal of their racism. What do you do?
I'd probably be shocked and say something like "that's a horrible thing to say", and then I'd leave. What would you do?

Quote:
How should this be handled differently from someone else out on a date and the big reveal of their companion's plumbing proves to be counter to what s/he expected and wanted? In either case, it comes down to "I'm not attracted to someone like you" when reduced to simplest terms.
In this case, I'd probably politely excuse myself, and say something like "I'm sorry, I don't think we're compatible".

I'd treat them differently because one is a moral defect/failing and the other is just a physical/intimate preference. There's nothing wrong with the person in the latter case; there is something wrong in the former.

What about you?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-12-2019 at 02:51 PM.
  #45  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:53 PM
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If he knew she was trans, this suggests they had established openness before physical intimacy began. So I’m surprised “pre-op or not” didn’t come up in conversation.
I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption, particularly if this was a random hook-up between strangers, and not a "date" in the more traditional sense.

Quote:
On the other hand, it is just as foolish to not be upfront about something when the probability is high it would be your partner’s dealbreaker, especially if the truth will be discovered just as soon as sex begins. As the saying goes, when people hear hooves, they think horses not zebras. If you’re a women dating a man, you’re generally going to assume he has a standard male package, not a female’s. It would be one thing if there was no functional difference between “horses” and “zebras”, but that’s not true. There are most costs than benefits to not ensuring your dating partner knows your equipment defies expectation.
The tricky thing here is, if you know the person you're about to get naked with is trans, which expectation is horses, and which is zebras?
  #46  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:53 PM
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There's nothing wrong with the person in the latter case; there is something wrong in the former.

What about you?
If we are to follow the lead set for us in the Slate article, there is something wrong with you (and with me) for leaving in the second situation.

FTR, I would excuse myself from the engagement in both situations.
  #47  
Old 11-12-2019, 03:01 PM
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If we are to follow the lead set for us in the Slate article, there is something wrong with you (and with me) for leaving in the second situation.
The Slate article says no such thing. It explicitly takes the opposite stance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Juzwiak
Desire is so complicated. Is it possible for someone who isn’t bigoted in any way to simply not want a penis that isn’t his in his bedroom? I feel like yes, that is possible. People are very specific in their desires and so infrequently can specify what the origin of those desires is that the best we can do is trust them. We’re not talking about logic here.
  #48  
Old 11-12-2019, 03:02 PM
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If you accept the premise that transwomen are women and you accept the premise that a straight man is attracted to women, then a straight man should be attracted to transwomen.
That's an obvious logical fallacy: your two premises do not imply the conclusion you're trying to draw from them. Few or no straight men are attracted to all women, just as few or no straight women are attracted to all men. For instance, some straight men aren't attracted to short-haired women, or tattooed women, or fat women, or tall women, and they have the right not to pursue a romantic relationship or encounter with someone they're not attracted to.

Similarly, some straight men aren't attracted to transwomen, and have the right not to pursue a romantic relationship or encounter with a woman who happens to be trans.

However, if genitalia or any other criteria are a dealbreaker for you in dating, it's on you to make that clear to potential partners if you want potential partners with those characteristics to avoid you. It's not a transgender person's responsibility to preemptively declare what their genitals are like just so you don't have to be the one to bring the subject up.

As for the alleged advice column mentioned in the OP, while there's nothing wrong with encouraging people to consider sexually experimenting with characteristics they initially assumed they could never find attractive, of course nobody should be forced or shamed into a sexual situation with someone whom they really don't find attractive. Just say "No thanks, I'm not comfortable with this" and leave with a clear conscience.

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-12-2019 at 03:03 PM.
  #49  
Old 11-12-2019, 03:02 PM
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The only safe thing to do is to send pictures of your junk to everyone you might possibly end up dating.
  #50  
Old 11-12-2019, 03:05 PM
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If we are to follow the lead set for us in the Slate article, there is something wrong with you (and with me) for leaving in the second situation.
Not by my reading (Miller provides the relevant quote).
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