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  #51  
Old 06-06-2018, 08:13 PM
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I'd say no.
Qui-Gon wasn't immediately convince Jar-Jar was sentient. Yeah, it was Jar-Jar but it might apply to all his people.

Despite the personalities, droids have about as much connection to The Force as a rock or microwave oven.
The Emperor was engaged in twisted experiments to create technology that was compatible with the Force. General Gievous was a hybrid that definitely needed biological components. That lead to his ultimate success in Darth Vader.

R2-D2 might be special. He almost seems to treading a path laid out by the Force. And the Millennium Falcon it to damn lucky for there not to be something there too.

Last edited by Aquadementia; 06-06-2018 at 08:14 PM.
  #52  
Old 06-06-2018, 09:05 PM
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Agreed, but as Obi Wan Kenobi once said if Droids could think none of us would be here.

Obi-Wan Kenobi had a somewhat . . . casual . . . relationship with the truth.
  #53  
Old 06-06-2018, 09:13 PM
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They don't quite ever talk about the stunning racism against non-Humans in Star Wars, but it is there. A LOT of non-Human races were enslaved before the Empire and/or wiped out by the Empire.
  #54  
Old 06-06-2018, 09:17 PM
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They don't quite ever talk about the stunning racism against non-Humans in Star Wars, but it is there. A LOT of non-Human races were enslaved before the Empire and/or wiped out by the Empire.
Anakin and his mother were slaves to a non-human and had had anti-escape devices in them worse then restraining bolts.

Last edited by Aquadementia; 06-06-2018 at 09:17 PM.
  #55  
Old 06-06-2018, 09:52 PM
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Agreed, but as Obi Wan Kenobi once said if Droids could think none of us would be here.
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They don't quite ever talk about the stunning racism against non-Humans in Star Wars, but it is there. A LOT of non-Human races were enslaved before the Empire and/or wiped out by the Empire.


But, as has been pointed out, there's a lot of racism in SW, including specific racism against droids. It's right in the very first movie, "We don't serve their kind here!"

So why is it surprising that Obi Wan, one of the elites in this society, is fundamentally blind to the nature of droids? Humans who held slaves routinely dehumanized them, and convinced themselves that slaves just weren't real people like the slave masters were. Why should Obi Wan be different?
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  #56  
Old 06-07-2018, 04:44 AM
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I'd say no.
Qui-Gon wasn't immediately convince Jar-Jar was sentient.
Sentience and intelligence are not the same thing. Qui-Gon only referenced the latter.
  #57  
Old 06-07-2018, 04:48 AM
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Sentience and intelligence are not the same thing. Qui-Gon only referenced the latter.
"The ability to speak does not make one intelligent."
  #58  
Old 06-07-2018, 05:53 AM
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One of the bounty hunters we see in ESB is a droid, so yeah, killing "for profit" is canon.

So we were rooting for kissin’-your-sister rebels who owned slaves, and against the government that hired those don’t-serve-their-kind-here types to fight?
  #59  
Old 06-07-2018, 06:19 AM
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So we were rooting for kissin’-your-sister rebels who owned slaves, and against the government that hired those don’t-serve-their-kind-here types to fight?
What do you mean "we," paleface?
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  #60  
Old 06-07-2018, 06:37 AM
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I’m just saying, if they’d cast Luke and Han with the folks who played Bo and Luke, and maybe thrown in a white-bearded mentor played by Denver Pyle...
  #61  
Old 06-07-2018, 07:36 AM
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So we were rooting for kissin’-your-sister rebels who owned slaves, and against the government that hired those don’t-serve-their-kind-here types to fight?
The Empire also has slaves, so it's a wash IMO. Bounty hunters don't count to differentiate, they'd work for the Rebels just as easily.

Now, if either side paid their non-freelancing droids a living wage, that'd make it easier to tell who the good guys were...
  #62  
Old 06-07-2018, 09:21 AM
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So we were rooting for kissin’-your-sister rebels who owned slaves, and against the government that hired those don’t-serve-their-kind-here types to fight?
The Rebel Alliance was fightin' for Systems' Rights, and against the Empire's unjust tariff policies!

And droids are happy servin' their masters, everyone knows that! Why, poor C3PO would be heartbroken if some outside agitator from some big-city planet like Coruscant tried to take him away from his beloved Master Luke!
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  #63  
Old 06-07-2018, 09:38 AM
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Previous generations grappled with these issues while watching the animals pressed into service as household appliances on the Flintstones. Perhaps the droids resign themselves to thinking, "it's a living."
  #64  
Old 06-07-2018, 09:44 AM
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I’m just saying, if they’d cast Luke and Han with the folks who played Bo and Luke, and maybe thrown in a white-bearded mentor played by Denver Pyle...
And Catherine Bach in a gold bikini as "Cousin" Leia?
  #65  
Old 06-07-2018, 10:01 AM
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And Catherine Bach in a gold bikini as "Cousin" Leia?

I could have tried to photoshop something like this, but I just assumed that it already existed on the internet and wasn't disappointed.
  #66  
Old 06-07-2018, 11:14 AM
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I'd say no.
Qui-Gon wasn't immediately convince Jar-Jar was sentient. Yeah, it was Jar-Jar but it might apply to all his people.
He never said that.

Jar-Jar is unquestionably SENTIENT. All animals are sentient.
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  #67  
Old 06-07-2018, 08:39 PM
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Agreed. And, in the same vein: “They’re dying, Artoo! Curse my metal body, I wasn’t fast enough! It’s all my fault!” That makes perfect sense if he actually believes it, and wants to lament to the other guy — but if neither of them cares, it’s just weird.
May I throw in here that I thought that was the funniest line in that entire movie?
  #68  
Old 06-07-2018, 10:46 PM
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Wait, did you mean sentient as in intelligent?
No, I don't think they are.

Last edited by Trisha Gaurav; 06-07-2018 at 10:47 PM.
  #69  
Old 06-07-2018, 11:07 PM
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Wait, did you mean sentient as in intelligent?
No, I don't think they are.
Roger Roger.
  #70  
Old 06-08-2018, 05:14 AM
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Wait, did you mean sentient as in intelligent?
Once more, with feeling: Sentience IS NOT Intelligence! The OP is clearly using it in the correct sense, too.
  #71  
Old 06-08-2018, 07:42 AM
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Were they aware of their environments and able to react to stimuli in that environment? Unquestionably. But that's also not a big deal. The OP is clearly referring to something else, but people are notoriously sloppy about defining just what that "something else" is.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:20 AM
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The OP was pretty clear that to them, sentience was synonymous with self awareness.

Yes, we can dive down a rabbit hole of what "is" is, but the OP was not "sloppy"
  #73  
Old 06-08-2018, 08:24 AM
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Were they aware of their environments and able to react to stimuli in that environment?
That's also not sentience.
  #74  
Old 06-08-2018, 09:26 AM
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OK, now define self-awareness.
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Old 06-08-2018, 09:49 AM
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First, you define "define".

Last edited by MrDibble; 06-08-2018 at 09:50 AM.
  #76  
Old 06-08-2018, 10:08 AM
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I feel this was settled, in passing, back on Page One: however you define sentience, or anything else, it’s the thing that I freely grant that you have while I’m having this chat with you. And, as far as I can tell, you’d do likewise for me; and, as far as I can tell, Threepio would do just fine compared to either of us in a Turing test.

Whatever we’re doing to convince one another, it looks like he’s got it too.
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:24 AM
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OK, if you put a discolored smudge on Threepio's forehead, and showed him a mirror, would he attempt to wipe the smudge off? That's the best test anyone's ever been able to come up with for anything that might be called "self-awareness", and I don't think anyone doubts that Threepio would pass that test.
  #78  
Old 06-08-2018, 11:35 AM
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OK, if you put a discolored smudge on Threepio's forehead, and showed him a mirror, would he attempt to wipe the smudge off? That's the best test anyone's ever been able to come up with for anything that might be called "self-awareness", and I don't think anyone doubts that Threepio would pass that test.
I thought R2D2 handled maintenance.
  #79  
Old 06-08-2018, 11:40 AM
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There's a great short scene in the Rebels episode "Twin Suns" in which Ezra decides he needs to cross the open desert. Chopper doesn't want to. Ezra tells him he can follow the hills (filled with Sand people) and probably find a town.

Chopper looks at hills, back at Ezra, back at hills, back at Ezra, gives a great frustrated sigh, slumping over very human like before following Ezra.

Last edited by Chimera; 06-08-2018 at 11:40 AM.
  #80  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:00 PM
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OK, if you put a discolored smudge on Threepio's forehead, and showed him a mirror, would he attempt to wipe the smudge off? That's the best test anyone's ever been able to come up with for anything that might be called "self-awareness", and I don't think anyone doubts that Threepio would pass that test.
The mirror test is a bit flawed or inconclusive, though - I mean, gorillas maybe don't pass, but pigeons and some ants do...
  #81  
Old 06-08-2018, 01:11 PM
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OK, if you put a discolored smudge on Threepio's forehead, and showed him a mirror, would he attempt to wipe the smudge off? That's the best test anyone's ever been able to come up with for anything that might be called "self-awareness", and I don't think anyone doubts that Threepio would pass that test.
I doubt my son would wipe a smudge off his forehead.

I've told someone to wipe a smudge off their forehead. Turns out she was catholic. Oops.
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Old 06-08-2018, 01:20 PM
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I doubt my son would wipe a smudge off his forehead.

I've told someone to wipe a smudge off their forehead. Turns out she was catholic. Oops.
Was it Face Palm Sunday?
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Old 06-08-2018, 01:21 PM
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I doubt my son would wipe a smudge off his forehead.

I've told someone to wipe a smudge off their forehead. Turns out she was catholic. Oops.

Yeah, I was thinking, "Hey, maybe they like the look of the smudge!"

With a sufficiently loose definition of "smudge", cosmetic companies make billions of dollars a year off people just like that!
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Old 06-08-2018, 01:31 PM
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Was it Face Palm Sunday?
Ash Wednesday.
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Old 06-08-2018, 01:51 PM
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OK, if you put a discolored smudge on Threepio's forehead, and showed him a mirror, would he attempt to wipe the smudge off? That's the best test anyone's ever been able to come up with for anything that might be called "self-awareness", and I don't think anyone doubts that Threepio would pass that test.
In fact, in "The Force Awakens," he passes this test. He comments that someone may not be able to recognize him because of the color of his arm. So he is not only aware of a purely cosmetic change in his own appearance, but can perceive that others may be aware of it and that it affects how they perceive him.

If he's not a self-aware being, the folks who have written all these movies are sure doing a great job trying to fool us.
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Old 06-08-2018, 02:55 PM
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OK, if you put a discolored smudge on Threepio's forehead, and showed him a mirror, would he attempt to wipe the smudge off? That's the best test anyone's ever been able to come up with for anything that might be called "self-awareness", and I don't think anyone doubts that Threepio would pass that test.
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In fact, in "The Force Awakens," he passes this test. He comments that someone may not be able to recognize him because of the color of his arm. So he is not only aware of a purely cosmetic change in his own appearance, but can perceive that others may be aware of it and that it affects how they perceive him.

If he's not a self-aware being, the folks who have written all these movies are sure doing a great job trying to fool us.
He ranted at Chewie in ESB when Chewie put his head on backwards, so I'd say that shows self-awareness.
  #87  
Old 06-08-2018, 03:37 PM
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People, this is a society that BEFORE things fell apart had no real issue with creating a group of LIVING beings - not droids - whose sole purpose was to fight and die.

The clones are clearly indoctrinated slaves to the New Republic. There's even evidence in The Clone Wars that they can be programmed and that orders can be placed in them dormantly to be executed upon receiving the proper code words.

Once you break through that sort of barrier, machine enslavement isn't even a big step away...it's actually a step backward to go to machine enslavement.
  #88  
Old 06-08-2018, 06:08 PM
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There's a great short scene in the Rebels episode "Twin Suns" in which Ezra decides he needs to cross the open desert. Chopper doesn't want to. Ezra tells him he can follow the hills (filled with Sand people) and probably find a town.

Chopper looks at hills, back at Ezra, back at hills, back at Ezra, gives a great frustrated sigh, slumping over very human like before following Ezra.

BB-8 does something significantly similar in TFA’s “droid, please” scene.
  #89  
Old 06-08-2018, 06:38 PM
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Tseebo

When the Empire came for Mira and Ephraim [Ezra's parents], Tseebo tried to help them but he was afraid to do so and as a result, they were captured and taken away while their son Ezra was left on the streets. Ashamed for not being able to save them, he went to work for the Imperial Information Office and was implanted with a Borg AJ^6 device, sacrificing his personality for productivity.

(Note: Same as Lobot from Empire Strikes Back)
  #90  
Old 06-08-2018, 08:50 PM
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OK, now define self-awareness.
At what point would you say it would be akin to murder to destroy a computer? (Or put another way when should congress pass a law saying destroying a computer is murder?)

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 06-08-2018 at 08:51 PM.
  #91  
Old 06-08-2018, 09:58 PM
Trisha Gaurav Trisha Gaurav is offline
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OK, if you put a discolored smudge on Threepio's forehead, and showed him a mirror, would he attempt to wipe the smudge off? That's the best test anyone's ever been able to come up with for anything that might be called "self-awareness", and I don't think anyone doubts that Threepio would pass that test.
I don't know, my dog recognizes herself in the mirror.
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Old 06-09-2018, 09:09 AM
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And thus, by the mirror test, your dog is self-aware.

Note, by the way, that I never said it was a particularly good test, just that it's the best we have.
  #93  
Old 06-11-2018, 10:54 AM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is online now
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As a child I had a lot of those book and record sets, many of which were Star Wars ones. One was set in a planet that was run by Droids that had over thrown their owners to be free. That says self aware to me.
Asimov had a court in one of his short stories declare, "Freedom should not be withheld from any being capable of asking for it."

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...They should do a C3PO prequel directed by Woody Allen.
Sleeper (1973) would be a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV2N4KSh3x4

Last edited by Elendil's Heir; 06-11-2018 at 10:55 AM.
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