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  #351  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:26 PM
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That was a good finale. I also was thrown off a bit by the infeasibility of the frozen squids being so damaging. They could have thrown in a line about the clock (and the floating ship) being incredibly delicate and fragile, I guess? Or "those squid are already so aerodynamic in shape, when I freeze them and launch them from 25,000 feet higher in the atmosphere..."? It's a little nitpicky, and at the end of the day, doesn't distract from the overall themes and stories of the season.

I was anticipating a larger diabolical plan from Trieu (or, at least, different). I was thinking parallel to the comics. That in place of the giant squid that unleashes a psychic blast of fear, we have an elephant with a city's worth of culturally diverse memories that permanently blur the line of individuality once unleashed in every Tulsa inhabitant's mind. But I guess "I'm going to become a god" is a pretty big plan as well.

I don't envy the job of writing an omnipotent character like Dr. Manhattan. It's so problematic and full of loopholes, I wouldn't know where to even begin.

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I saw the theater sign as well, but don't remember seeing signs of Topher's telekinetic abilities.
There was a shot of him alone in his room playing with an Erector Set-like toy that was suspended in air, each piece moving independently.
  #352  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:31 PM
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I thought the idea there was that was a product of Dr Manhattan's science magic, as were other things in that world.
  #353  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:32 PM
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That would be true of literally anything he does. It explains nothing. If he had spent the last episode murdering Angela, her kids, and then tucking his cock between his legs and danced around like Buffalo Bill you wouldn't say "he had to do that because for him he always did it." You'd wonder what the possible motivation could be for him to do that.



It only really works if his actions turn out to be the same as what he would do if he has complete volition over them, knowing the future.



Reading a couple more reviews: in the second to last episode Dr. Manhattan tells Angela that it is important that she sees him walk on water. That seems to imply she actually did get his powers at the end. That, combined with Angela witnessing Trieu and Dr. Manhattan's ends, perhaps sets her up as being a major force for good. I can see that being a worthy explanation.
I agree.

Maybe Dr. Manhattan was able to see the outcomes of a million different scenarios and they either ended with Trieu destroying the world or Angela being killed. He chose the option that had the best outcome.

It does seem like as soon as Angela had "awoken" him, he could have escaped the whole madness by teleporting him and the family to Europa. But Trieu wouldn't have given up. Maybe she would have started blowing important shit up unless Dr. Manhattan returned. Or maybe the 7K would have eventually (inadvertently) blown up important shit as they used the teleportation device for nefarious purposes, so Dr. M saw the wisdom of allowing himself to be captured by them.


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  #354  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:34 PM
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We do. It was Veidt.
Was it? Couldn't Trieu have landed her rocket anywhere?

The way I figure, she sent a probe to Europa while Veidt was still in Antarctica. She told him it would arrive in five years, hence why he knew to escape the atmosphere and arrange bodies into a message at that time. Then, years after that, the rocket sent by Trieu to retrieve him arrived to pick him up. Then, years later, after he had been bronzed for preservation, it arrived on Earth, where Trieu and her team were waiting with their unbronzing ray.

But she bought that farm minutes before that thing in the sky landed. There was no reason to do that if the thing had been Veidt's rocket. She could have landed it anywhere. And her unbronzing team was not there to receive Veidt when she bought the farm.

I guess I thought it was just a meteor, one with the right mix of rare radioactive elements to construct her unobtanium ray she planned to use to destroy/become Dr. Manhattan. But I'm not entirely clear on that point.
  #355  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:39 PM
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Oh, my headcannon for the frozen squid is that they weren't falling out of the sky, they were shot out of the sky, and so Veidt's claim that it would be like a machine gun could be true. They sure did look a lot like hail though.
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Old 12-16-2019, 12:41 PM
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But we've seen the Veidt bronze statue on her estate for several episodes - it/he had been there the whole time. It wasn't until the moment of her final reveal did she want to unbronze him, probably for fear that he'd escape and try to stop her (which, in fact, he did).
  #357  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:42 PM
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She didn't unbronze Veidt until much later, she had him displayed as a statue in her garden.
  #358  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:46 PM
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Okay, that does change my mental sequence of events.
  #359  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:50 PM
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Was it? Couldn't Trieu have landed her rocket anywhere?

The way I figure, she sent a probe to Europa while Veidt was still in Antarctica. She told him it would arrive in five years, hence why he knew to escape the atmosphere and arrange bodies into a message at that time. Then, years after that, the rocket sent by Trieu to retrieve him arrived to pick him up. Then, years later, after he had been bronzed for preservation, it arrived on Earth, where Trieu and her team were waiting with their unbronzing ray.

But she bought that farm minutes before that thing in the sky landed. There was no reason to do that if the thing had been Veidt's rocket. She could have landed it anywhere. And her unbronzing team was not there to receive Veidt when she bought the farm.

I guess I thought it was just a meteor, one with the right mix of rare radioactive elements to construct her unobtanium ray she planned to use to destroy/become Dr. Manhattan. But I'm not entirely clear on that point.
...no, it was Veidt. Lindelof mentions this explicitly in many post-show interviews, he didn't intend for it to be ambiguous, it just ended up that way for some

And my favourite post-show comment from Lindelof was this about Lube Man:

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Originally Posted by Vulture
One final question, on a sillier note, because people are obsessed with Lube Man.

I love it. He’s captured the hearts of America in a way that we never suspected he would.

Who is he? There’s a theory that he’s Agent Petey.

Well, I will say that we felt those who have taken the time to read the Peteypedia deserved reward beyond the people who were just watching the TV show. The final installment of Peteypedia, which will drop right after the finale airs, does give strong indications as to the identity of Lube Man.

When I read the original Watchmen, the thing that I was completely and totally obsessed with was Hooded Justice. I would talk to other people with familiarity about Watchmen, and I’d go, “I like that they never told us who Hooded Justice was,” and they’d look at me like, “Who?” And I’d be like, “You know, Hooded Justice? He’s one of the original Minutemen,” and their eyes would glaze over. I was like, “Oh, okay, nobody else cares about this thing.” But that obsession became the foundation for this season of Watchmen. And so, maybe somebody will do the same with Lube Man. There’s a clear indication as to who he may be, but we didn’t answer it definitively. For those future storytellers who may take up the mantle and do another season of Watchmen, I say Lube Man is fair game.
https://www.vulture.com/2019/12/watc...-lindelof.html

Lube Man was Lindelof's homage to the mystery of Hooded Justice. I just love that.
  #360  
Old 12-16-2019, 03:43 PM
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As far as predestination - I think he addressed that with his chicken AND the egg at the same time bit when his telling Will about Judd caused the future that caused the past. Dr. M. is acting with volition but because of what he knows which causes the future the knowledge of which had caused the action that caused it ... Causation is bidirectional in that framing.

As for the squids ... they are not simple objects passively falling.
  #361  
Old 12-16-2019, 04:04 PM
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As for Lube Man, followers of Peteypedia got this final update tonight:

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Effective immediately, Dale Petey is no longer an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and his employment by the Anti-Vigilante Task Force has been terminated.

(Former) Agent Petey’s computer folder will be deleted from the share server in 48 hours, after which time his meandering, self-indulgent memos (he certainly puts the “I” in FBI) and ridiculous documents will only exist as hard copy.

Let the legacy of “Peteypedia” be an example of how NOT to conduct professional electronic discourse. Moving forward, I expect to see only the most succinct analysis and most pertinent information in your folders, not exhaustive summations of television programs as if they were in any way relevant to anything, nor schematics of pornographic space-age sex toys. Understood?

Similarly, a maintenance crew will be boxing up the contents of Petey’s office later this afternoon. Anyone interested in taking anything from the stacks of media, ephemera, and straight-up junk cluttering his workspace — multiple copies of Rorschach’s Journal, hundreds of “comic” books (why our society is still so obsessed with pirates is beyond me) and a jug of what appears to be some kind of canola oil, help yourselves.

Let the record reflect that I have personally removed a new album by The Nine Inch Nails entitled The Manhattan Project, as my son listens to that garbage, it is rotting his brain, and it brought me great personal delight to smash this “music” into pieces.

Finally, I know there has been considerable chatter about what happened to Petey and his recent work with Agent Blake. Let me address those matters briefly and in order of importance. I can confirm that Agent Blake has resurfaced following her disappearance in Tulsa. She is currently being debriefed at a secure and classified location due to the sensitive nature of the discoveries she made over the course of her investigations, none of which I am privy to.

For those of you whispering that said discoveries involve hoaxes and conspiracies linked to our Commander in Chief, I will remind you all of your oaths. What matters most is that Agent Blake is alive and well and she wishes to thank those who cared for her pet owl while she was away.

As for (former) Agent Petey, the circumstances of his dismissal are as simple as they are baffling. After defiantly refusing my direct order to suspend his activities in Tulsa and return to Washington, I had no choice but to instruct the field office there to relieve him of his badge. My understanding from Tulsa PD is that he has now gone missing.

Given the simultaneous deaths of a U.S. senator and a prominent trillionaire, it would appear Petey has taken it upon himself to continue the investigation despite our closing it. It’s clear now from his memos that Petey (Hero Enthusiast-Obsessive / Solipsist on the Werthem Spectrum) is at risk for vigilante behavior, and most likely, always was.

Perhaps sooner or later, this task force will be investigating him.
God help us all,

ANTI-VIGILANTE TASK FORCE (GROUP)
DEPUTY DIRECTOR FARRAGUT
OCTOBER 1, 2019
DALE PETEY
MEMORANDUM
Privileged and Confidential
:
:
:
:
Max Farragut
Deputy Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation
  #362  
Old 12-16-2019, 07:17 PM
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Importantly, if you open the PDF for this Peteypedia entry, there's a hidden link under the words "canola oil".

https://www.hbo.com/content/dam/hbod...dale-petey.pdf

I'd say Lube Man's secret identity is pretty unambiguous.
  #363  
Old 12-16-2019, 08:12 PM
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Oh, my headcannon for the frozen squid is that they weren't falling out of the sky, they were shot out of the sky, and so Veidt's claim that it would be like a machine gun could be true. They sure did look a lot like hail though.
There's a lot wrong with the shrimp. Cooling them to 22 degrees for a moment wouldn't freeze them, and making the temperature exact is bullshit techspeak. We also see constant streams of them going through Veidt's teleporter, but in usual dumb fake suspense they fall down one at a time at first, only gradually becoming a constant rain, totally unlike the way they fell in a sudden downpour in the earlier episode. Veidt says anybody within five blocks would be obliterated, but very little actual damage was shown. The biggest problem is that he didn't know where in Tulsa Trieu was yet managed to pinpoint her exactly, even to allowing for wind and Coriolis force effects. Ugh.
  #364  
Old 12-17-2019, 04:17 AM
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There was a shot of him alone in his room playing with an Erector Set-like toy that was suspended in air, each piece moving independently.
When Angela talks to him about Uncle Miami Vice dying. This was what I was referring to, but on 3rd viewing (!) the structure was hovering over a blue mat and he was sat next to a Manhattan-blue box that said 'Manhatten' on it so..... not Topher's abilities at all.
My critical faculties clearly not as acutely tuned as many on here.

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Old 12-17-2019, 04:56 AM
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Good catch on the Manhattan tech. I didn’t see it either. (I had assumed such earlier in the thread, but wasn’t sure.)
  #366  
Old 12-17-2019, 04:12 PM
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I was expecting Trieu to pull off a "I did it 35 minutes ago" on Veidt. She fell into the classic trap of explaining her master-stroke while there was still a chance to stop her.
Because she must not be as smart as she thinks she is Also, I didn't mention it in my post about last week's episode but I liked when they did a reference to this line.

Something else about the previous episode: I would not be shocked if they have her character the surname Abar just to have that pun in the title of the episode.

Loved this series and enjoyed the finale. Some thoughts:

I am fine with assuming the frozen squid are deadly projectiles. It seems realistic enough to me as comic book physics if not real life.

I don't know if we have a second season but I could live without ever knowing whether she sinks or floats.

The projectile Trieu acquired was definitely Veidt. She had no idea when he would launch so there would be no way for her to fully control exactly where it would land. Much easier for a trillionaire to just buy where it lands.
  #367  
Old 12-17-2019, 04:54 PM
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The projectile Trieu acquired was definitely Veidt. She had no idea when he would launch so there would be no way for her to fully control exactly where it would land. Much easier for a trillionaire to just buy where it lands.
The problem with this is that she already had the baby ready to go, that had to have taken a long time to prepare. I agree that it was Veidt but that entire situation made very little sense.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:20 PM
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I don't think Trieu had control over where it lands. The return trip was a ballistic trajectory, so after the fuel ran out it was going to land where it was going to land. Maybe they only calculated where the landing would be late in the process.
  #369  
Old 12-17-2019, 05:24 PM
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I don't think Trieu had control over where it lands. The return trip was a ballistic trajectory, so after the fuel ran out it was going to land where it was going to land. Maybe they only calculated where the landing would be late in the process.
And then whipped up a baby for a couple who had already tried and failed to do so in no time and brought it to term and had it ready to be delivered on the very date of the crash? That makes no sense, she had to know the spot years in advance.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:50 PM
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And then whipped up a baby for a couple who had already tried and failed to do so in no time and brought it to term and had it ready to be delivered on the very date of the crash? That makes no sense, she had to know the spot years in advance.
Who says no time? Maybe it was months out. Or maybe it was years in advance and she didn't make her pitch until it was born which happened to be close to the crash.
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Old 12-18-2019, 04:48 AM
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Lady Trieu probably knew the general area where the capsule would be landing and undoubtedly had contingency plans for each of the farms in the area. Once she knew exactly where Veidt would land, she only needed to implement one of those plans.
  #372  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:33 PM
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Finally saw the finale, and I thought it was terrific. Fantastic way to tie everything together. A perfect ending... I hope they hold off on another season unless they have some really great ideas. Hard to write for characters with godlike powers.
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Old 01-06-2020, 09:55 AM
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I liked the subtle hints of Dr Manhattan being in Cal all the time. The floating castle. Angela surviving without explanation, when she was in effect dead. When they said that Dr M. was already there, I knew who it was already.

I do wonder what new information can be gleaned from watching the whole series again, with the knowledge that Sister Night wasn't the innocent and uninformed one she appeared to be.

The message on Europa stopping at a the D was a great trick too.

I thought Veidt was sent to Europa as an exile, but then it appears he's stuck there by mistake, because Dr M. has changed to be human. Seems to be a bit of a plot hole, this cleverest man in the world getting stuck there, despite knowing that Dr M., his means of escape, was gone now, by Veidts own hand. But still there's so much in there unanswered (buying the farm to in effect get Veidt's statue back, seems a weak spot).
  #374  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:32 PM
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USA Today reports that because Damon Lindelof, who created the series, doesn't want to do a second season that HBO isn't going to do another season (presumably not even with someone else running things).
  #375  
Old 01-24-2020, 10:37 AM
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Just a FWIW and bit of an aside ... I've recently been streaming Netflix's German language production "Dark" (watch it subbed not dubbed) ... and either there are some big coincidences or these writers cribbed from each other.

It not just that a major theme is the version of time in which the future causes the past just as inevitably as the past causes the future, but the same "chicken egg" metaphor explicitly used and the same "tick tock" ominous muttering by various characters.

Still even if Lindelof cribbed some ideas the execution and novel application of them was great!
  #376  
Old 02-02-2020, 03:44 AM
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Well, I'll be the one to say that I think they really bungled the finale. There's been a current of the futility of human striving going through Watchmen, with Dr Manhattan embodying that. A 'normal' superhero universe has a range of individuals of different powers, but in the Watchmen, all the power is concentrated within a single, god-like being---there's not a gradation of ability, there's a bunch of zeros, and a single one. This parallels a Lovecraftian theme---humanity doesn't, ultimately, have any power over the universe, which is an uncaring absolute. Dr Manhattan represents that absolute---'the world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite'.

Except now, humanity can build a gizmo capable of overcoming Dr Manhattan after all. That means Veidt, in the original watchmen, simply wasn't smart enough; if he'd built a quantum centrifuge, he could've taken out Manhattan. So Manhattan isn't an absolute, compared to whom all humans are essentially nothing; a really, really smart termite can take him down. He's on the same scale after all, just a thing with more power; there's no fundamental gulf between him and humanity.

I think that basically undercuts the whole point of Watchmen, and I'm a bit saddened that the series' developers didn't realize this.

Last edited by Half Man Half Wit; 02-02-2020 at 03:46 AM.
  #377  
Old 03-17-2020, 02:34 PM
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I just binge watched the series because we're getting HBO on a free preview (clever marketing team). Love the original comix and followed the monthly Usenet conversations dissecting each detail as they came out. Like the movie, not great but better than many people thought.

I loved the series, with a few exceptions. Still some open questions, but that's to be expected with anything based on the Watchmen. A good story arc, lots of interconnected strands and poignant callbacks, mirror imaging, and deep symbolism. Overall I'd give it an A-, mainly because I didn't like the use of the Madame Trieu character or the Ozymandias plot of Europa. But lots of great new characters and a few updates on old ones.

I hope there's a season 2, but it could go anywhere from here.

Jean Smart played a similar role in the first two seasons of Legion, and while she's great in both roles I wish the characters were a bit more different.
  #378  
Old 03-18-2020, 08:41 PM
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Hard to write for characters with godlike powers.
That was my main qualm with the show: whenever anything mysterious or weird happened, I just tended to shrug and say "I guess Doctor Manhattan used cloning or time travel or something silly like that". I liked the Hooded Justice stuff, though.
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