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  #201  
Old 11-18-2019, 09:59 AM
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Remember the weird screeching in the ears thing that Wade was experiencing (what he was trying to prevent with the reflective lined hats and his mask)? That was part of the psychic trauma.
  #202  
Old 11-18-2019, 10:35 AM
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Someone mentioned last night that the survivors of the squid landing on NYC suffered "psychic" trauma. Are they referring to PTSD from being at the site of an event that killed three million or is this something more? (I assume this was covered in the books.)
I seem to recall that the squid landing was accompanied by a technological attack that actually killed people. Something about there being a sonic component is in my memory, but there was definitely something that killed people from a distance that wasn't done by explosives or bombs.
  #203  
Old 11-18-2019, 11:15 AM
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I assume the fact that Wade was in a house of mirrors during the attack is related to his Looking Glass mirrored mask. And by the way, isn't it sweaty to be wearing that mask all the time?
  #204  
Old 11-18-2019, 11:26 AM
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I seem to recall that the squid landing was accompanied by a technological attack that actually killed people. Something about there being a sonic component is in my memory, but there was definitely something that killed people from a distance that wasn't done by explosives or bombs.
Psychic shockwave?
  #205  
Old 11-18-2019, 12:05 PM
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Psychic shockwave?
Psychic blast was the phrase IIRC. Essentially shockwave.
  #206  
Old 11-18-2019, 12:52 PM
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Another great episode and one with the most direct connections to the source material. Also so much world building.

I can't believe how lucky we are that a show this weird and challenging actually got green lit. I like it.

What was the 80s song that played in the beginning at the Hoboken Carnival?
  #207  
Old 11-18-2019, 01:49 PM
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Another great episode and one with the most direct connections to the source material. Also so much world building.

I can't believe how lucky we are that a show this weird and challenging actually got green lit. I like it.
This is a great observation.

Quote:
What was the 80s song that played in the beginning at the Hoboken Carnival?

There was a song by Howard Jones ("Things Can Only Get Better") and then "Careless Whisper" by Wham!/George Michael, which was reprised several times in different versions.

Last edited by Acsenray; 11-18-2019 at 01:51 PM.
  #208  
Old 11-18-2019, 01:53 PM
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Howard Jones, "Things Can Only Get Better" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OO9LloDSJo

"Careless Whisper" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izGwDsrQ1eQ
  #209  
Old 11-18-2019, 02:57 PM
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Someone mentioned last night that the survivors of the squid landing on NYC suffered "psychic" trauma. Are they referring to PTSD from being at the site of an event that killed three million or is this something more? (I assume this was covered in the books.)
I think it's a bit of both. People near the event experienced some sort of real Call of Cthulhu-esq madness inducing "psychic trauma" in addition to the sort of traditional PTSD one might expect of bearing witness to a city-scale catastrophe.




"Squid pro quo" ...LOL
  #210  
Old 11-18-2019, 02:59 PM
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I enjoyed a lot about this episode, but I have to say I'm starting to get a bit of a "Lost"/"We solved a mystery by revealing more mysteries! Isn't that cool?" vibe. Both the Veidt and Looking Glass storylines were interesting, but both seemed to raise several much larger questions than the ones they solved, particularly the Veidt one for me. I'm not saying the series won't be worth it in the end (as "Lost" wasn't), but I am starting to get skeptical of an Alan Moore quality resolution.
  #211  
Old 11-18-2019, 05:50 PM
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I can't believe how lucky we are that a show this weird and challenging actually got green lit. I like it.
Actually, while watching yesterday's episode, it reminded me of The Leftovers, partly in terms of weirdness. Perhaps not surprising given that Damon Lindelof is responsible for both.
  #212  
Old 11-18-2019, 07:28 PM
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Friends of Nemo, lol!
....

Veidt creating a "Save me" message for.. Dr Manhattan (looked like the next word started with a D?) meaning maybe someone else put him on the moon?
I didnt get that.

One of the moons of Jupiter, note.
  #213  
Old 11-19-2019, 06:14 AM
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A gang of armed Rorschachs arrive at Wadeís house just before the credits roll. I wonder if that means curtains for him or something else. Iím
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  #214  
Old 11-19-2019, 10:32 AM
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I didnt get that.
The Friends of Nemo thing? People in Alcoholics Anonymous use "Friends with Bill' (Bill is the first name of a co-founder of AA) to ask whether someone is in the group without blurting out "are you in AA too"?

So the Extradimensional Attacks Anonymous use Friends of Nemo - as in Captain Nemo who is known for fighting giant squids in the Jules Verne novels.

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 11-19-2019 at 10:33 AM.
  #215  
Old 11-19-2019, 02:10 PM
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A gang of armed Rorschachs arrive at Wadeís house just before the credits roll. I wonder if that means curtains for him or something else. Iím
In normal TV, a "this character is about to die at the end of an episode" just means it's a cliffhanger, and that character is fine. I trust this show enough for it not to be just a cheesy cliffhanger, so I don't think he's just going to fight them off. Going through all the trouble of capturing Wade and showing him the video does not seem like the easiest way to get Angela out of the way for three days. I think they are grabbing him and taking him to Keene for another mission.
  #216  
Old 11-19-2019, 05:19 PM
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A gang of armed Rorschachs arrive at Wadeís house just before the credits roll. I wonder if that means curtains for him or something else.
I guess you could read different meanings into a group of Rorschachs.
  #217  
Old 11-19-2019, 06:21 PM
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I guess you could read different meanings into a group of Rorschachs.
Very droll.

That was quite a number of dead clones available to Veidt to construct his message. It seems strange to me that he would have sent hundreds of clones to their deaths across the barrier without a tether or anything. That wouldnít seem to be a rational component of his efforts. Unless he launched them through exactly for that reason.
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  #218  
Old 11-20-2019, 01:05 AM
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Unless he launched them through exactly for that reason.
...I suspect this to be the case.
  #219  
Old 11-20-2019, 01:37 AM
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I enjoyed a lot about this episode, but I have to say I'm starting to get a bit of a "Lost"/"We solved a mystery by revealing more mysteries! Isn't that cool?" vibe. Both the Veidt and Looking Glass storylines were interesting, but both seemed to raise several much larger questions than the ones they solved, particularly the Veidt one for me. I'm not saying the series won't be worth it in the end (as "Lost" wasn't), but I am starting to get skeptical of an Alan Moore quality resolution.
...this really isn't following the Lost formula, but more the formula that Lindelof moved to later on with the Leftovers. Lindelof brings together great writing rooms and some of the behind the scenes stuff on the leftovers (don't read if you haven't seen the series because they are all have major spoilers) on how they managed to come up with an ending that simultaneously answered every question that the series posed yet also didn't answer a single question the series posed, and did that in a way that was not only satisfying, but critically acclaimed, was inspiring.

Lindelof took the criticisms of Lost to heart. (No spoilers on the link) I wouldn't be thinking about an "Alan Moore" quality resolution. If we get a resolution half as good as the Leftovers finale (which, along with B5's Sleeping in Light, was probably one of my favourite series finales of all time) that would be good enough for me.
  #220  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:11 PM
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Friends of Nemo, lol!

Veidt creating a "Save me" message for.. Dr Manhattan (looked like the next word started with a D?) meaning maybe someone else put him on the moon?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Veidt seemed to be making the message so that it would be seen by the satellite. And what does God, or Dr. Manhattan, need with a satellite?

Also, it's kind of funny to imagine him spelling out all of the extra characters it would take to write "SAVE ME DOCTOR MANHATTAN".

My guess is "Dan". I think we're going to see Nite Owl again. Especially given the potential interplay with Agent Blake.
  #221  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:40 AM
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...this really isn't following the Lost formula, but more the formula that Lindelof moved to later on with the Leftovers. Lindelof brings together great writing rooms and some of the behind the scenes stuff on the leftovers .... If we get a resolution half as good as the Leftovers finale (which, along with B5's Sleeping in Light, was probably one of my favourite series finales of all time) that would be good enough for me.
You keep pushing that show, but I despised it. It was horrible.
  #222  
Old 11-21-2019, 09:54 PM
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You keep pushing that show, but I despised it. It was horrible.
I thought it was awful too. I get that different people like different things. What I don't understand is why anyone says The Leftovers wrapped things up nicely and answered the questions it had posed. It really just...didn't. Makes me fear a bit for Watchmen, although this is a very different kind of story.

I have read a few article suggesting Lindelof only plans to do one season and if it continues it will likely be under someone else (of course he might change his mind).
  #223  
Old 11-24-2019, 08:58 PM
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This latest episode is so good that I'm angry it's almost over!
  #224  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:47 AM
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You keep pushing that show, but I despised it. It was horrible.
...thank you for sharing your opinion.
  #225  
Old 11-25-2019, 06:54 AM
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Episode 6: wow
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  #226  
Old 11-25-2019, 08:55 AM
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I'm confused. I thought grandpa was the baby abandoned in the farmer's field by his parents fleeing the Tulsa Massacre. But it seems that he's an older boy that found the baby. So where did he come from and what happened to the baby?
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Old 11-25-2019, 09:30 AM
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I'm confused. I thought grandpa was the baby abandoned in the farmer's field by his parents fleeing the Tulsa Massacre. But it seems that he's an older boy that found the baby. So where did he come from and what happened to the baby?
What do you mean, where did he come from? He had been secreted away by his parents (along with the baby) to be taken to safety. Neither the baby or the kid were "abandoned", if by abandoned you mean intentionally left in the farmer's field. They were orphaned.

The baby grew up to be the journalist lady he married and had a kid with. I'm assuming that kid was Angela's father.
  #228  
Old 11-25-2019, 09:38 AM
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The whole concept of Nostalgia pills is crazy to me, so I was fully prepared to not like the trip down memory lane. But it turned out to be an awesome way of doing a flashback. Much better than if Will had simply told what had happened.

I busted out laughing when Blake was talking to Angela stuck in the freeze-frame and she said, "Your eyes are wide open and it's kind of creeping me out right now." I actually felt something for both Blake and Angela at that moment.

I'm probably going to rewatch the episode today.
  #229  
Old 11-25-2019, 10:13 AM
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So if some folks were upset that they weren't explaining things... well that was a whole episode devoted to explaining things.

Really awesome way of doing it as well. The guesses that Reeves was Hooded Justice was try. The mesmerizer ray seems way too overpowered though... and how come no one else figured that tech out?
  #230  
Old 11-25-2019, 10:14 AM
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That episode kind of derails this theory:

https://watchmen.fandom.com/wiki/The...ain_Metropolis
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  #231  
Old 11-25-2019, 12:15 PM
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That was a pretty amazing episode. The B&W, the music, the story. It was really dense, thought provoking and entertaining. Also answers a long time question readers of Watchmen have wondered about since the 80s.
  #232  
Old 11-25-2019, 05:21 PM
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I'm confused. I thought grandpa was the baby abandoned in the farmer's field by his parents fleeing the Tulsa Massacre. But it seems that he's an older boy that found the baby. So where did he come from and what happened to the baby?
The grandpa—Will—was the little boy watching the movie about Marshal Bass Reeves in the opening scene of the first episode. His parents persuaded friends to take him in their car with the note “watch over this boy.” He hid in a basket in the back of the truck. Outside of town, after all the adults had been killed, he found a baby girl who grew up to be his wife, the journalist.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 11-25-2019 at 05:23 PM.
  #233  
Old 11-25-2019, 06:05 PM
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As someone who was worried a bit by the previous episode, this episode was superb. Wow.
  #234  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:13 PM
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Howard Jones, "Things Can Only Get Better" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OO9LloDSJo

"Careless Whisper" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izGwDsrQ1eQ
Forgot to say thanks!
  #235  
Old 11-25-2019, 09:17 PM
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I hate just me tooing but yeah, wow. Not much told that most of us weren't already presuming, but what a powerful and effective telling of it!
  #236  
Old 11-25-2019, 09:58 PM
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I feel ashamed to say this, because everyone in this thread seems to be so hip and in-the-know, but it was only until this latest that I realized that we've been watching scenes from a show within the TV show (The American Hero). And this show is a highly inaccurate portrayal of reality.

Like, the scene where the real Hooded Justice busts out of the storefront window once Arson Storekeeper whips out his gun sits in stark contrasts with the analogous fictional scene with the fictional Hooded Justice, who is shown busting into the store through that same window to beat up gunmen.

Also, I gotta think there's something significant about the Cyclops symbol and its similarity with the squid eye.

I predict that in the next couple of episodes, we're going to see Lady Trieu's backstory. And it's going to be just as graphic and fucked-up as Will's.
  #237  
Old 11-26-2019, 12:27 AM
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...

Also, I gotta think there's something significant about the Cyclops symbol and its similarity with the squid eye.
...
That's the "OK" symbol, I think, the new "racist" one.

Altho well done, this epi went nowhere.
  #238  
Old 11-26-2019, 11:34 AM
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Ah the irony :
https://qz.com/quartzy/1732050/why-a...hbos-watchmen/
HBOís Watchmen, as excellent as it is, raises questions about the ethics of playing around with someone elseís creation without their permission. Itís putting the debate about creator rights back into the spotlight at a time when a huge portion of the most successful TV shows and films are thriving off the backs of their originators.

Did Alan Moore get permission to use Mina Murray, Fu Manchu,Allan Quatermain,Dr. Jekyll,Captain Nemo, Alice, Wendy or Dorothy?
  #239  
Old 11-26-2019, 09:39 PM
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Also like the raid on the compound ... really Wade? Why go in until the back up you think youíve called for arrived?
I told you this show has the worst police procedure of any modern tv show. Notice how the Senator correctly assumed that Wade would violate all protocols and do exactly what he did?

I did not expect June to be the baby. If Will is 105 in 2019 he was 7 in 1921. That makes him 24 in 1938, actually kinda old to be a rookie in those days. But the baby couldn't be more than one year old. So if June was the baby she is at most 18 in 1938. But she has an adult job and lives in a large apartment on her own.

That makes as much sense as ordering a bottle of memories from somebody who doesn't know you and finding out they're filled with memories sliced from a man nobody knew was alive. Did I miss some exposition there?

These were two great episodes, nonetheless. I'm flabbergasted that the show can be so smart and so dumb at the same time.
  #240  
Old 11-26-2019, 11:12 PM
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... That makes as much sense as ordering a bottle of memories from somebody who doesn't know you and finding out they're filled with memories sliced from a man nobody knew was alive. Did I miss some exposition there?

These were two great episodes, nonetheless. I'm flabbergasted that the show can be so smart and so dumb at the same time.
As to the first, yes I think you missed some there. Will had those pills with him and intentionally left behind. These were curated memories that he wanted Angela to experience. For reasons.

But you are exactly right. In a weaker show with poorer production or poorer acting or uninteresting characters the flaws in this show would reach Doctor Who moon level. Will was shining the same Mezmer light at Angela - was his plan to control her? But he planned to have her experience his memories ... although the way in reach she did was not something he could have exactly planned ... but he apparently knew she would ...

And again, the actual plot reveals of this ep are nothing that most were not already pretty confident of.

But we look past all of that because the telling is done powerfully, the production values effective, the acting amazing, the characters interesting ones we feel for and with. No it doesn't stand up to deep plot analysis, and we don't care, because it still presents other things that make us think and feel.
  #241  
Old 11-27-2019, 08:05 AM
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I did not expect June to be the baby. If Will is 105 in 2019 he was 7 in 1921. That makes him 24 in 1938, actually kinda old to be a rookie in those days. But the baby couldn't be more than one year old. So if June was the baby she is at most 18 in 1938. But she has an adult job and lives in a large apartment on her own.

That makes as much sense as ordering a bottle of memories from somebody who doesn't know you and finding out they're filled with memories sliced from a man nobody knew was alive. Did I miss some exposition there?
.
You missed that this show is based on a comic book and thus requires one suspend a lot of disbelief. Or perhaps one just needs a little imagination.

Maybe the baby was a wunderkin and graduated high school at the age of 16. Back in those days, it was fairly common for people to get a writing gig without a college degree if they were good enough. And for all we know, she had a roommate who is never shown. Or she was house-sitting for someone wealthy and important (a literary figure in the Harlem Renaissance, perhaps).

I can think of some wild and crazy things in this show (like Veidt being able to fish newborn babies out of a pond and having a machine that can make them reach adulthood in a matter of seconds). The ages of Will and his wife don't even make the top 20.

Last edited by monstro; 11-27-2019 at 08:05 AM.
  #242  
Old 11-27-2019, 10:53 AM
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As to the first, yes I think you missed some there. Will had those pills with him and intentionally left behind. These were curated memories that he wanted Angela to experience. For reasons.
So how did they wind up with Looking Glass' ex-wife?

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I can think of some wild and crazy things in this show (like Veidt being able to fish newborn babies out of a pond and having a machine that can make them reach adulthood in a matter of seconds). The ages of Will and his wife don't even make the top 20.
Science fiction does depend on suspension of disbelief. The consumer is required to accept devices like giant psychic squids as plotlines. That's why many people cannot "get" science fiction.

The flip side is the reward consumers receive from seeing how those crazy plotlines affect people just like them. When those people aren't real, then the pleasure drains away.

We've had many threads talking about this phenomenon. The small things movies and tv get wrong bother many people far more than the big things included just for the fun of it. And there's no need for these lapses. They're just sloppiness.

Like the "lack" of computers. Tech is different in this world. Fine. Then why did the animal cloning center have two computer monitors on its reception desk? And just how do they think the CD players work if not with a computer chip? Sloppy.

Last edited by Exapno Mapcase; 11-27-2019 at 10:54 AM.
  #243  
Old 11-27-2019, 11:11 AM
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So how did they wind up with Looking Glass' ex-wife?
Will Reeves left them with Angela. Angela gave them to Looking Glass to get his ex-wife to analyze them, so he did.

These things all happened on screen in the foreground with dialogue by the characters.

What baffles me is that you apparently missed all that but were sitting there calculating the charactersí ages in your mind over the course of episodes and scenes scattered throughout the series when their exact ages at different eras isnít relevant to the plot. Same with the computer screen thing.

It seems to me that some people have forgotten how to understand a performance. Iíve used this phrase repeatedlyóa fictional performance is not a fake documentary. When you go to a stage play you donít wonder why every room has only three diagonal walls unless the play itself brings that to your attention. If the show doesnít bring the thing about the charactersí ages or the computer screen to your attention then youíre not supposed to notice it, because itís irrelevant.

A performance is an artifice, a magic trick, whether itís on stage or on screen. Itís fake, and itís meant to be so. Itís just a vehicle for telling a story. Itís people playing pretend and make believe.


Science fiction does depend on suspension of disbelief. The consumer is required to accept devices like giant psychic squids as plotlines. That's why many people cannot "get" science fiction.

The flip side is the reward consumers receive from seeing how those crazy plotlines affect people just like them. When those people aren't real, then the pleasure drains away.

We've had many threads talking about this phenomenon. The small things movies and tv get wrong bother many people far more than the big things included just for the fun of it. And there's no need for these lapses. They're just sloppiness.

Like the "lack" of computers. Tech is different in this world. Fine. Then why did the animal cloning center have two computer monitors on its reception desk? And just how do they think the CD players work if not with a computer chip? Sloppy.[/QUOTE]
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  #244  
Old 11-27-2019, 12:02 PM
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Sorry that I'm not having the immersive experience that you are. I forgot about the pills. That's why I asked if I were missing something.

The small things that take you out of immersion in a fictional world are a real problem, though. Some people are bothered more than other people, and different small things will bother different people. The writers can't be expected to deal with every one of them, even if they knew in advance which would wind up bothersome. Taking care of the major errors - the ones that are elements in the plot - is their responsibility, nevertheless.

That people have forgotten how to understand a performance is sheer nonsense. The average viewer is orders of magnitude more understanding of artifice than ever before.

When movies began, directors spent inordinate amounts of time getting characters through doors because they felt that viewers wouldn't understand how the characters got to a new room. You'll still see this in the 1930s. Flashbacks were slowly introduced as a device and accompanied by swirling pictures and flipping calendars and music cues to ram home the difference, to the point where this became a standing joke. Hundreds of narrative techniques had to be introduced and accustomed to over the decades so that today an episode like the last Watchmen, in which time and space and bodies are scrambled, can be easily followed by the average viewer. That was a showpiece of narrative technique, as advanced as anything I've seen on television. It will certainly be studied in film classes.

All that good work is undermined for some viewers who find their minds distracted by seeming trivialities. Once you get jerked out of the immersion it takes time to re-immerse. Until then you watch from a critical, in several senses, distance. If that never happens to you, consider yourself fortunate. When it happens to me, I'm going to complain in addition to offering praise. Why you don't understand that baffles me.
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Old 11-27-2019, 12:02 PM
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We've had many threads talking about this phenomenon. The small things movies and tv get wrong bother many people far more than the big things included just for the fun of it. And there's no need for these lapses. They're just sloppiness.
And yet you will continue watching the show, right? The sloppiness is obviously not affecting whether you tune into this show or others like it. So maybe that's why writers don't care about creating a perfect product. People will eat it up regardless of how "bothered" they claim to be over picayune details.

It is strange to me that intelligent people such as yourself can fan-wank away the implausibility of a guy fighting off mobs all by himself without ever being knocked unconscious and thus having his identity (let alone his race) exposed. But they somehow can't search their brains for a hypothesis that explains how an 18-year-old woman managed to secure a good job and a large apartment. That bothers them more than a pond full of cloned babies on Mars? Sorry, but this kind of biased incredulousness is ridiculous, and it shouldn't be given a pass with a lame "That's just how science fiction fans are".
  #246  
Old 11-27-2019, 01:17 PM
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It is strange to me that intelligent people such as yourself can fan-wank away the implausibility of a guy fighting off mobs all by himself without ever being knocked unconscious and thus having his identity (let alone his race) exposed. But they somehow can't search their brains for a hypothesis that explains how an 18-year-old woman managed to secure a good job and a large apartment.
This is spot on. And itís not just that they canít come up with a hypothesis. Itís that they need a hypothesis at all. We donít really need an answer to the question of why the guy is so good at fighting. No hypothesis is needed. Itís just the way things are in the story. So it should be the same with the 18 year old with an apartment and a job. Actually, the story never even asks you to calculate that she is 18. Sheís just a Young adult of no specific age. Thatís all the story needs.
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  #247  
Old 11-27-2019, 01:34 PM
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Apparently this episode had more real life social commentary than at first appears.
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Old 11-27-2019, 01:49 PM
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Real life is also mirroring the show:

Robert Redford: President Trump's dictator-like administration is attacking the values America holds dear
  #249  
Old 11-27-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Once you get jerked out of the immersion it takes time to re-immerse. Until then you watch from a critical, in several senses, distance. If that never happens to you, consider yourself fortunate. When it happens to me, I'm going to complain in addition to offering praise. Why you don't understand that baffles me.
This isn't something that "happened" to you. The story didn't tell you that she was 18 with a job and an apartment in New York. At some point you decided on your own, with no prompting from the story, to calculate her age. That's not something that the story did to you. That's something that you did to the story.

And then you assumed that your calculation must be true in the storyóan assumption that the story itself doesn't say anything about. And then you assumed you had some kind of authoritative knowledge about the plausibility of an 18-year-old woman's living circumstances in New York City in the 1930s in an alternative fictional reality, none of which has any support in the story itself.

None of these things are things that the story gave you. You put in the time and effort to make all that up in your own head and then decide that the story was responsible for all that stuff that you conjured up.
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:29 PM
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I’ll put forth a different take. If one IS immersed it takes a lot of illogic to take you out of it. It takes a lot less when one isn’t. Exapno clearly wasn’t as immersed as many of us were. But many of us complain about less in less compelling shows.
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