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  #51  
Old 10-07-2017, 06:26 PM
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On a side note, I notice that all the outraged Hollywood indignates who were so incensed about Donald Trump's pussy grabbing have been curiously quiet. What they don't realize is that their hypocrisy on issues like this only serves to bolster the conservative observation that the severity of, and harm done, by an offense depends mainly upon the political leanings of the person who commits it.
I don't see anyone here -- or anywhere else -- being "curiously quiet" about this. No one here is defending Weinstein's behavior. It's certainly true and understandable that this would have been even bigger news if instead of being a movie producer in private life Weinstein had been running for some public office of some significance, like, I dunno, mayor of Kalamazoo, or President of the United States or something. But he's not.

As for severity and harm done by such offenses, that has to include the moral tone that it sets. So the offender's public stature matters a lot, like the difference between being, say, a movie producer in private life and being something like, I dunno, President of the United States or something.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:15 PM
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Oh, you mean like Bill Clinton?
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:28 PM
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...

I'd be willing to bet good money that if the whole truth came out that it would make the Catholic Church scandal look like small potatoes.
I don't see it as the same. No one expected kids to be molested by priests and that if something like that did happen that the church itself would cover it up and play a shell game. A huge betrayal of trust on top of the crimes themselves.

To act surprised that young hopefuls in Hollywood were being sexually used/abused by the system is naive. Figure a good percentage of stage mothers knew what the risks were and put their kids at risk in pursuit of stardom and/or the huge payday.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:44 PM
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Oh, you mean like Bill Clinton?
Clinton wasn't a sexual predator, and that was never the issue. Trump was, and that was the central issue. Clinton didn't get elected despite such allegations, because there weren't any. Trump got elected despite video proof of them. If you're trying to make some point about how the two sides judge their politicians, I can't help you if you can't see this blatant difference.

My point in any case is that Harvey Weinstein is far less important to the national psyche than the current occupant of the most important leadership position in the nation. And his actions are being condemned, as they should be.

Last edited by wolfpup; 10-07-2017 at 07:45 PM.
  #55  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:20 AM
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...and he's been fired.

...and there's a kerfuffle about how comedy news shows, including SNL, have not included this on their joke agenda. Fodder for conservative media to point out the show's' biases.
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:27 AM
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I don't see it as the same. No one expected kids to be molested by priests and that if something like that did happen that the church itself would cover it up and play a shell game. A huge betrayal of trust on top of the crimes themselves.

To act surprised that young hopefuls in Hollywood were being sexually used/abused by the system is naive. Figure a good percentage of stage mothers knew what the risks were and put their kids at risk in pursuit of stardom and/or the huge payday.
It's probably worse in terms of who casual the society is towards child abuse. It's true that there's no trust there though, and there shouldn't be. Woody Allen and Roman Polanski are still respected figures in that town. If you let your kid work there you know what you are subjecting them to. You can count on your fingers the number of child actors who don't end up heavy drug users.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:22 AM
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...and he's been fired.

...and there's a kerfuffle about how comedy news shows, including SNL, have not included this on their joke agenda. Fodder for conservative media to point out the show's' biases.
Might have been a little late (and/or insufficiently corroborated as at writing time - even SNL lawyers have standards) for SNL this past Saturday. I'm wondering if John Oliver will mention it though.
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  #58  
Old 10-09-2017, 06:27 AM
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Might have been a little late (and/or insufficiently corroborated as at writing time - even SNL lawyers have standards) for SNL this past Saturday. I'm wondering if John Oliver will mention it though.
He did:

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Originally Posted by NYTimes
Indeed, Mr. Oliver told a series of jokes about Mr. Weinstein in Sunday’s episode of HBO’s “Last Week Tonight.” Referring to a TV journalist’s claim that Mr. Weinstein masturbated in front of her, Mr. Oliver said, “Step aside, ‘Chocolat,’ you are no longer the most horrifying picture that Harvey Weinstein has ever produced.”
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:13 PM
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Clinton wasn't a sexual predator, and that was never the issue.
Clinton has been accused of rape, exposing himself, and forcing himself on women. If you believe the accusations then he definitely is a sexual predator.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:33 PM
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Not to mention the 'power imbalance' re Monica Lewinsky that everyone around here would be on about were Clinton a Pubbie/conservative.

Once again the idea is created that the offense and its alleged harm isn't really the problem; rather, it's the political leanings of the offendee. Drug and rape 13-year-old girls (Polanski) or cheat on your wife and stick cigars up a star-struck intern (Clinton), and Hollywood is quiet or outright supportive. Claim that you can grab women over their clothes while they allow you get away with it, and the din from Hollywood is deafening.

Politics. It's nothing but politics.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:37 PM
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WEll, let's be clear, there's a HUGE gulf between consensual and inappropriate behavior and unconsesnual.

That being said, who gets believed does have a lot to do with the political leanings of the accused. Anita Hill was obviously telling the truth and Juanita Broaddick is a damn liar. If there were only one or two accusers and one of them wasn't a famous liberal activist like Ashley Judd, there would be lots of talk of right wing conspiracies.

Last edited by adaher; 10-09-2017 at 01:38 PM.
  #62  
Old 10-09-2017, 01:42 PM
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Once again the idea is created that the offense and its alleged harm isn't really the problem; rather, it's the political leanings of the offendee. Drug and rape 13-year-old girls (Polanski) ... and Hollywood is quiet or outright supportive. Claim that you can grab women over their clothes while they allow you get away with it, and the din from Hollywood is deafening.

Politics. It's nothing but politics.
FTR, did Polanski ever run for office and/or make any campaign contributions to any political party?
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:42 PM
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It's probably worse in terms of who casual the society is towards child abuse. It's true that there's no trust there though, and there shouldn't be. Woody Allen and Roman Polanski are still respected figures in that town. If you let your kid work there you know what you are subjecting them to. You can count on your fingers the number of child actors who don't end up heavy drug users.
Hate to break it to you, but only a tiny percentage of child actors make it into the tabloids, get abused, or are drug addicts.
The process of getting agents and auditioning is designed to eliminate "stage mothers" - not that I ever saw more than one or two. Kids go in by themselves, and it is very obvious if they are there because they want to be or because they are being forced to audition. Kids forced into it don't seem to get many jobs, because all the kids I've seen on sets were damn happy to be there and were loving every minute of working.
Sure it happens, but it sure as hell isn't prevalent. The National Enquirer is not a good source about what really goes on in the industry.
  #64  
Old 10-09-2017, 01:44 PM
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Name me three child stars who haven't had drug problems as adults.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:45 PM
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Name me three child stars who haven't had drug problems as adults.
Natalie Portman, Scarlett Johanssen and Jodie Foster.

ETA: I did that is less than 30 seconds on purpose. The list is huge. But there is indeed a much higher incidence of drug problem among Hollywood children from what I can see, just not as bad as you're making it out to be.

Last edited by What Exit?; 10-09-2017 at 01:47 PM.
  #66  
Old 10-09-2017, 01:47 PM
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I've seen plenty of criticism from "Hollywood indignates". I haven't gone and checked the response of every last liberal in Hollywood (that would take weeks!), but I've seen many open criticisms of this type of behavior, especially from women in entertainment.
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I've seen almost exclusively criticism.

...but whatever helps his narrative...
I haven't been following this story too closely but I've seen multiple articles from reputable sources talk about how both Rose McGowan and Lena Dunham are the only celebrities actually talking about this.
  #67  
Old 10-09-2017, 01:49 PM
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...and he's been fired.

...and there's a kerfuffle about how comedy news shows, including SNL, have not included this on their joke agenda. Fodder for conservative media to point out the show's' biases.
It is a lot easier to write jokes when someone denies it over time, so the story builds, or when someone has set himself up as a moral paragon.

The real shameful thing is the lack of on the record comments from people in the business. That's where the jokes should be directed.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:49 PM
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Portman was a teen. Johanssen was a teen. Jodie Foster doesn't have a drug problem, but smokes 2 packs a day. People deal with shit in different ways.

This could be why:

http://yournewswire.com/jodie-foster-hollywood-rape/

A key quote from the article:

Quote:
As one of the few child stars to never fall off the rails, Jodie carved out a hugely successful acting career, w
And it's not like she didn't have reason to. If her experience isn't nearly universal I'd be surprised. Elijah Wood says it hasn't happened to him, but he recognizes how lucky he is.

Last edited by adaher; 10-09-2017 at 01:51 PM.
  #69  
Old 10-09-2017, 01:51 PM
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... Jodie Foster.
I don't know if Foster is a good example because she admitted having a bit of problem with drugs while in college. Of course, this shortly after Hinkley took a shot at Reagan to "impress" her so there might've been other factors at work than being a former child actress years before.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:53 PM
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Portman was a teen. Johanssen was a teen. Jodie Foster doesn't have a drug problem, but smokes 2 packs a day. People deal with shit in different ways.

This could be why:

http://yournewswire.com/jodie-foster-hollywood-rape/
They were both pre-teens I believe. It appears Natalie was 12 for Leon (the Professional). Scarlett was 10 for North. If we're counting cigarettes, I think you're trying too hard. I named 3 without effort. Give it a break. There are far more.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:55 PM
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How's the group from Harry Potter doing so far? Most started at 11 and most are doing fine aren't they?
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:58 PM
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Name me three child stars who haven't had drug problems as adults.
You said actors. Michelle Trachtenburg, Danny Tamberelli, Mike Maronna to name three I knew personally - and my daughter.
It is the height of ignorance to think all actors are rich stars in mansions with coke habits. Not quite accurate.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:03 PM
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They were both pre-teens I believe. It appears Natalie was 12 for Leon (the Professional). Scarlett was 10 for North. If we're counting cigarettes, I think you're trying too hard. I named 3 without effort. Give it a break. There are far more.
I wouldn't normally count smoking unless it's an abnormal addiction. Someone who smokes heavily usually does it for a reason. Drew Barrymore and Jodie Foster are notorious for always smoking, although Jodie has tried to quit many times and may currently be on the wagon.

Portman and Johannson are non-smokers I believe, or at least don't smoke enough that everyone notices. But I also had in mind true child actors. A person may be ready for Hollywood by the time they become a pre-teen, but young children don't seem to do too well. And those who have testified have said it was not much of a secret and they still fear naming names to this day. That's a culture problem. If it was just a few bad apples they could out people and everyone would be on their side. But if Jodie Foster was talking about say, Jerry Bruckheimer, she might not have too much support from her colleagues.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:06 PM
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I haven't been following this story too closely but I've seen multiple articles from reputable sources talk about how both Rose McGowan and Lena Dunham are the only celebrities actually talking about this.
A lot of people seem to be shocked, just shocked, that something like this could be going on. That rings a bit hollow. Reading the NYTimes article, dozens if not hundreds of people would have known about these accusations. It speaks to a culture of tolerance for this sort of behavior.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:08 PM
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Tolerance, but also fear. the NY Times the next day ran an article about how Weinstein is being talked about constantly: just not on the record. Weinstein could be back and no one wants to get on his bad side. Plus he's made a lot of careers and it can be hard to speak out against your benefactor.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:13 PM
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The one I worried most about, because I appreciated him so much as a child actor, was Fred Savage. He turned out just fine, says he has absolutely no regrets about being a child star, and that "In no way does the experience preordain people for a lifetime of addiction, sloppy bids for attention, or soft crime."

Mayim Bialik seems to have done just fine as well.
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Old 10-09-2017, 04:44 PM
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To add to the list: Freddie Highmore seems to be doing fine, despite having begun his film career at age seven.

The 'most child actors grow up to have problems' meme seems remarkably thinly supported.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:37 PM
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I suppose it could be seen as a function of asserting power - "I can put you in an awkward, compromising position, and what are you gonna do about it?"
Like in the back of a VW?
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:43 PM
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There are reports that Matt Damon and Russell Crowe killed a story back in 2004.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:57 AM
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I don't follow this too closely, can anyone say if HW has done anything illegal?
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:05 AM
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I've seen plenty of criticism from "Hollywood indignates". I haven't gone and checked the response of every last liberal in Hollywood (that would take weeks!), but I've seen many open criticisms of this type of behavior, especially from women in entertainment.
This guy was good at padding the pockets of the democratic establishment. Both Clinton and the Obamas are keeping quiet about this.
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:12 AM
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tfb, I'd 'keep quiet' about it because it's none of my business either.

So, about the illegality and criminal charges?
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:15 AM
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An opinion piece in the NYtimes by Lena Dunham, asking men in Hollywood to speak louder about the regrets they may have for enabling behavior like Weinstein's: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/o...l-right-region

Also in today's issue is an statement by the NYtimes editor, replying to the former reporter who stated that HW was able to quash a story she had in 2004 - the one that Damon and Crowe supposedly called about. The Editor wasn't there at the time, but judged the story on its merits and said she didn't have enough story. Ouch.

Also, a different article states that Harvey thinks his brother is the one who gave the lawsuit info to the NY Times. Et Tu, Bob?

Last edited by WordMan; 10-10-2017 at 05:16 AM.
  #84  
Old 10-10-2017, 07:42 AM
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This guy was good at padding the pockets of the democratic establishment. Both Clinton and the Obamas are keeping quiet about this.
It's been a few days -- if they don't give clear criticism of Weinstein over the next week or two, then they deserve as much condemnation as the many, many Republicans who didn't wholeheartedly criticize and stop supporting Trump, O'Reilly, and Roger Ailes after their accusers came forward.
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:11 AM
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:13 AM
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Might have been a little late (and/or insufficiently corroborated as at writing time - even SNL lawyers have standards) for SNL this past Saturday. I'm wondering if John Oliver will mention it though.
SNL’s Lorne Michaels admitted he killed talking about it after a dress rehearsal because “it is a New York thing.” More left wing covering one of their own slime.
http://nypost.com/2017/10/09/no-one-...ve-me-a-break/
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Old 10-10-2017, 12:58 PM
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It's been a few days -- if they don't give clear criticism of Weinstein over the next week or two, then they deserve as much condemnation as the many, many Republicans who didn't wholeheartedly criticize and stop supporting Trump, O'Reilly, and Roger Ailes after their accusers came forward.
Why should they criticize anyone over allegations?
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:04 PM
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SNL’s Lorne Michaels admitted he killed talking about it after a dress rehearsal because “it is a New York thing.” More left wing covering one of their own slime.
http://nypost.com/2017/10/09/no-one-...ve-me-a-break/
It appears it got killed when it made it to the dress rehearsal and didn't get laughs. If they wanted to suppress it, it wouldn't have made it out of the writers' room, would it?
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:05 PM
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Both the NYTimes and The New Yorker have further articles, including statements from Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, Rosanna Arquette and more against Weinstein.

George Clooney has made a statement against HW but also defending his (Clooney's) ignorance. The New Yorker article is by Rowan Farrow, who clearly is invested in the topic given his estrangement from Woody Allen.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:06 PM
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It's been a few days -- if they don't give clear criticism of Weinstein over the next week or two, then they deserve as much condemnation as the many, many Republicans who didn't wholeheartedly criticize and stop supporting Trump, O'Reilly, and Roger Ailes after their accusers came forward.
I'd be a lot more upset if Obama met with Harvey to plot policy, or if the left ran him for office and supported him after the accusations were known.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:31 PM
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An opinion piece in the NYtimes by Lena Dunham, asking men in Hollywood to speak louder about the regrets they may have for enabling behavior like Weinstein's: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/o...l-right-region

A
Are women blameless in this? I"m not talking about the victims, but about the women who knew about these men who weren't victims and yet also said nothing.

I also notice that no one is being outed except for Weinstein, so all this talk of "courage" is starting to make me a little ill. Courage would be risking the wrath of someone powerful who isn't down on the ground to kick right now. If only Weinstein goes down then no one, women or men, are evidently serious about this problem.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:33 PM
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Why should they criticize anyone over allegations?
He settled with eight women and some really credible people have said he sexually harassed them. No one should be advocating jail time for him without charges and a trial, which is probably not happening, but given the number of women and their credibilty, he did it.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:44 PM
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He settled with eight women and some really credible people have said he sexually harassed them. No one should be advocating jail time for him without charges and a trial, which is probably not happening, but given the number of women and their credibilty, he did it.
Most of those Eight women took really small payouts. So either they were nuisance suits or had little validity.

Who are these "credible" woman?
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:49 PM
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Gwynyth Paltrow, Ashley Judd, Angelina Jolie, Rose McGowan, and Rosanna Arquette.
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:06 PM
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I don't follow this too closely, can anyone say if HW has done anything illegal?
The NewYorker article, which may be paywalled -
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...-their-stories

Tells the story of Ambra Gutierrez. Weinstein lunged at her during a private meeting, grabbed her breasts and tried to reach up her skirt. She extricated herself from the situation by promising to meet him later and went directly to the police station and filed a report. When she met HW again she was wearing a wire.

However, it would have been a 3rd degree misdemeanor and Manhattan DA Cy Vance declined to prosecute. HW settled with her and bought her silence.
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:12 PM
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Gwynyth Paltrow, Ashley Judd, Angelina Jolie, Rose McGowan, and Rosanna Arquette.

I see unwanted advances.
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:36 PM
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However, it would have been a 3rd degree misdemeanor and Manhattan DA Cy Vance declined to prosecute. HW settled with her and bought her silence.
Didn't she sell something, something that apparently enabled his to continue with other women?
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:00 PM
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I see unwanted advances.
...you see unwanted advances? Then you are seeing sexual harassment in action. Do you really need us to spell out why this is sexual harassment, and not just a guy asking a girl out on a date?
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:34 PM
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...you see unwanted advances? Then you are seeing sexual harassment in action. Do you really need us to spell out why this is sexual harassment, and not just a guy asking a girl out on a date?
Then every guy who hit on a unwilling potential partner is sexual harassment.

He wasnt putting roofies in drinks. Or firing women who wouldnt put out.
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  #100  
Old 10-10-2017, 04:37 PM
Wilson is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Metro NYC
Posts: 1,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Then every guy who hit on a unwilling potential partner is sexual harassment.

He wasnt putting roofies in drinks. Or firing women who wouldnt put out.
Dude, you need to learn what sexual harassment is before commenting on it.
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