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  #101  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Then every guy who hit on a unwilling potential partner is sexual harassment.
...so we do need to explain to you what sexual harassment is, and why this isn't the simple case of a guy asking a girl out on a date. Thanks for clearing that up. We will start with the basics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment

"Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. In most modern legal contexts, sexual harassment is illegal. As defined by the United States' Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), "It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person's sex." Harassment can include "sexual harassment" or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. "

"But these weren't employees!" I'm expecting you to say next. If that is what you are going to say next, I'll address that then.

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He wasnt putting roofies in drinks.
Strawman. We are talking sexual harassment. This isn't in dispute. You acknowledge you "see unwanted advances." Unwanted advances, in the context of the power differential that we are seeing here, is clearly and undisputedly sexual harassment.

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Or firing women who wouldnt put out.
What were the potential consequences for women who didn't "put out?" What were the actual real-world consequences for the many women (including many that we don't know about) who didn't "put out"?
  #102  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:08 PM
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Then every guy who hit on a unwilling potential partner is sexual harassment.

He wasnt putting roofies in drinks. Or firing women who wouldnt put out.
He was called a subordinate( actor in one of his productions )to a meeting in his hotel room where he requested in escalating order a back rub, then a massage, then to have said actor watch him shower and pick out his clothes. Each new refusal created a new, stronger request. That doesn't strike you as sexual harassment?

I'm pretty sure anybody in my own management structure who pulled that little stunt would be on a express train to unemploymentville. With a side stop at lawsuit village.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 10-10-2017 at 05:13 PM.
  #103  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:11 PM
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You can ask someone out and it's not sexual harassment, but he went quite a bit further than that.
  #104  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:16 PM
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He was called a subordinate( actor in one of his productions )to a meeting in his hotel room where he requested in escalating order a back rub, then a massage, then to have said actor watch him shower and pick out his clothes. Each new refusal created a new, stronger request. That doesn't strike you as sexual harassment?
Was there a point when the actor didn't have a choice?
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  #105  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:25 PM
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Was there a point when the actor didn't have a choice?
Coercion is not a necessary component of sexual harassment. Sexual harassment includes unwelcome advances, as well as unwelcome offers of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. The fact that you have the ability to refuse the unwelcome advances or offers is not relevant to whether it is harassment.

We are not talking here about sexual assault, which is a different crime.
  #106  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:27 PM
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Coercion is not a necessary component of sexual harassment. Sexual harassment includes unwelcome advances, as well as unwelcome offers of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. The fact that you have the ability to refuse the unwelcome advances or offers is not relevant to whether it is harassment.

We are not talking here about sexual assault, which is a different crime.
I haven't anyone claim they said to HW "I'm uncomfortable with this" - have they?
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  #107  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:33 PM
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I haven't anyone claim they said to HW "I'm uncomfortable with this" - have they?
...saying "I'm uncomfortable with this" is not a prerequisite for sexual harassment.

This is really fucking basic stuff. You should join with DrDeth and start by reading the wiki primer on sexual harassment.
  #108  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:37 PM
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...saying "I'm uncomfortable with this" is not a prerequisite for sexual harassment.

This is really fucking basic stuff. You should join with DrDeth and start by reading the wiki primer on sexual harassment.
You can shove your condescending attitude; mind reading is not part of any offence I am aware of.
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  #109  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:40 PM
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I haven't anyone claim they said to HW "I'm uncomfortable with this" - have they?
Ashley Judd: I said no, a lot of ways, a lot of times, and he always came back at me with some new ask

Rosanna Arquette: [After he tried to put her hand on his penis]"I will never do that."

Lucia Evans: "I said, over and over, I dont want to do this, stop, dont"

Gwyneth Paltrow says that when he put her hands on her and requested a massage, she refused.

In each of these cases, Weinstein subsequently threatened them and told them that they wouldn't get parts or would be unable to work for him.
  #110  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:44 PM
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...so we do need to explain to you what sexual harassment is, and why this isn't the simple case of a guy asking a girl out on a date. Thanks for clearing that up. We will start with the basics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment

"Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors.
"But these weren't employees!" I'm expecting you to say next. If that is what you are going to say next, I'll address that then.

What were the potential consequences for women who didn't "put out?" What were the actual real-world consequences for the many women (including many that we don't know about) who didn't "put out"?
"coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favor" Can you show coercion? Can you show "inappropriate promise of rewards". Apparently you are the one that needs a education here.

And no they werent employees.

Yes, what were the consequences? No one has implied they didnt get a job due to this. Gwynyth Paltrow, Ashley Judd, Angelina Jolie, Rose McGowan, and Rosanna Arquette are all still working.
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  #111  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin View Post
Ashley Judd: “I said no, a lot of ways, a lot of times, and he always came back at me with some new ask”

Rosanna Arquette: [After he tried to put her hand on his penis]"I will never do that."

Lucia Evans: "“I said, over and over, ‘I don’t want to do this, stop, don’t"

Gwyneth Paltrow says that when he put her hands on her and requested a massage, she refused.

In each of these cases, Weinstein subsequently threatened them and told them that they wouldn't get parts or would be unable to work for him.
Allegations. All of which came out after the publicity. None of which were said under oath.

If all these allegations are true and such open and shut cases, why has he never been successfully sued? Why did so many settle for peanuts?
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Last edited by DrDeth; 10-10-2017 at 05:51 PM.
  #112  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:56 PM
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Apparently you are the one that needs a education here.
...an education on sexual harassment? No I don't need that. You need to read the entire article, not just the fair-use-snippet I quoted. Thats just a primer. You have so much to learn. When you've finished reading that, we can chat.

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And no they werent employees.
In the context of sexual harassment and Harvey Weinstein, why do you think that matters in this case?

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Yes, what were the consequences? No one has implied they didnt get a job due to this. Gwynyth Paltrow, Ashley Judd, Angelina Jolie, Rose McGowan, and Rosanna Arquette are all still working.
And how many are not? This was going on for fucking decades. Waiting staff talked about how he had a different woman with him practically every night. You've listed five women. How about the rest of them?
  #113  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:57 PM
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I'll grant that there's a small chance he's innocent. There's also a small chance that Bill Cosby and OJ are innocent. But the evidence says they are probably guilty.
  #114  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:06 PM
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I'll grant that there's a small chance he's innocent. There's also a small chance that Bill Cosby and OJ are innocent. But the evidence says they are probably guilty.
...and of course we aren't in a court of law. We are in cafe society, where people have said harsher things about Taylor Swift than they have or will about Harvey.
  #115  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:11 PM
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Allegations. All of which came out after the publicity. None of which were said under oath.

If all these allegations are true and such open and shut cases, why has he never been successfully sued? Why did so many settle for peanuts?
Why did he step down? Why did he issue the public statement he did? Why did the
board of TWC fire him?

Still, keep on white-knighting an abuser. It's a hobby I suppose.
  #116  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:11 PM
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Yes, what were the consequences? No one has implied they didnt get a job due to this. Gwynyth Paltrow, Ashley Judd, Angelina Jolie, Rose McGowan, and Rosanna Arquette are all still working.
Dawn Dunning says that Harvey Weinstein told her that he had contracts for her to appear in his next three films, but that she could only sign them if she had a three-way with him. She refused and he told her that she would never make it in the business. He did not sign her and she eventually became a costume designer.

Louisette Geiss says that he told her he would greenlight her script, but she had to watch him masturbate. She refused, and eventually left the entertainment industry.

Different women had different experiences. Some told him no, and went on to make films for other producers. Some told him no, were unable to get other work, and left the industry. Some went along with him, and had varying degrees of success in their careers. All of them were sexually harassed, which is wrong whether or not there was coercion, and whether or not they later had successful careers.
  #117  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:27 PM
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Well, we're far enough in to this now that I think we can say with confidence that nothing is going to change. Weinstein is getting thrown under the bus but all the other scumbags in Hollywood are still being protected. Everyone's coming forward with stories that aren't about Weinstein but won't name names. They just aren't serious. Even if the victims are afraid to tell, which is understandable, no one else who knows about these guys is going to step up?

Hollywood is permissive towards sexual predation. That's just the way it is and it's not changing anytime soon.
  #118  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:35 PM
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...an education on sexual harassment? No I don't need that. You need to read the entire article, not just the fair-use-snippet I quoted. Thats just a primer.



And how many are not? This was going on for fucking decades. Waiting staff talked about how he had a different woman with him practically every night. You've listed five women. How about the rest of them?
I think you do. Or an education on not being condescending at least.

Maybe they were willing and happy to go along? or is that wrong also?

You know we were working on a film for use in Sexual harassment training.

Some scenes were reshot, with identical dialogue. One had a fat, balding guy ask the receptionist out for lunch. The other version was a hunky young guy in a deliverymans shorts. 80% of woman said the scene with fat guy was sexual harassment. only 20% thought the cute guy was harassment. Exact same words.
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  #119  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:36 PM
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Dawn Dunning says that Harvey Weinstein told her that he had contracts for her to appear in his next three films, but that she could only sign them if she had a three-way with him. She refused and he told her that she would never make it in the business. He did not sign her and she eventually became a costume designer.

Louisette Geiss says that he told her he would greenlight her script, but she had to watch him masturbate. She refused, and eventually left the entertainment industry.
Where are their lawsuits?
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  #120  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:37 PM
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Why did he step down? Why did he issue the public statement he did? Why did the
board of TWC fire him?

Still, keep on white-knighting an abuser. It's a hobby I suppose.
Maybe he is. But allegations doesnt make him so.
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  #121  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:47 PM
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I think you do. Or an education on not being condescending at least.
...nah.

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Maybe they were willing and happy to go along? or is that wrong also?
Who do you think were willing and happy to go along with it? Don't throw hypotheticals at me. Who are you talking about?

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You know we were working on a film for use in Sexual harassment training.

Some scenes were reshot, with identical dialogue. One had a fat, balding guy ask the receptionist out for lunch. The other version was a hunky young guy in a deliverymans shorts. 80% of woman said the scene with fat guy was sexual harassment. only 20% thought the cute guy was harassment. Exact same words.

Interesting anecdote that bears no fucking relation to this story whatsoever. Are you being serious? Do you actually think that you've made a point here? You want us to believe this (quite frankly) unbelievable anecdote and to not believe all the women who have spoken out in the last couple of days?

Read the wiki article. Then we can move on. Because you still are demonstrating you don't have a clue what sexual harassment actually means.

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Where are their lawsuits?
A lawsuit is not a prerequisite for sexual harassment. We aren't in a court of law. We are having a discussion in cafe society.

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Maybe he is. But allegations doesnt make him so.
We have the fucker on tape.
Thats fucking sexual harassment. End of story. If you don't think that's sexual harassment: then you have a definition problem, not us.
  #122  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:49 PM
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Why did the
board of TWC fire him?
That actually makes it worse. They didn't fire him because of sexual harassment, they fired him due to unfavorable publicity due to allegations of sexual harassment. They were obviously fine with him doing whatever he did. But not the publicity.
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  #123  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:55 PM
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Gotta give Dr Deth points on that one. Absolutely true. As James Corden said on late night, he violated the strict 27 strikes and your out policy they have.
  #124  
Old 10-10-2017, 07:05 PM
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Where are their lawsuits?
Most of them did not file lawsuits, but instead settled with him for relatively small sums of money. He had a massive amount of money and experienced legal team; they were young women starting out in their careers. They made the rational and prudent decision that settling made more sense than filing a lawsuit.

This still does not change the fact that he sexually harassed them.

I concede, absolutely, that there currently does not exist a legal determination of his guilt. That still does not change the fact the he sexually harassed these women.
  #125  
Old 10-10-2017, 07:13 PM
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Wouldn't some of his actions fall under "lewd conduct" laws?
  #126  
Old 10-10-2017, 07:32 PM
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Ben Affleck issued this statement:

https://twitter.com/BenAffleck

in the comments, Rose McGowan calls him a liar.

Kudos to Rose McGowan. She's the only person in Hollywood who is seriously not screwing around.
  #127  
Old 10-10-2017, 07:37 PM
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Here's the Rose McGowan tweet:

https://twitter.com/rosemcgowan/stat...67520828194816
  #128  
Old 10-10-2017, 08:05 PM
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A friend remains loyal.
Very often, loyalty is not the most important virtue. And when that happens, it's better that a friendship end.

How far would you push this? What would your friend have to do to lose your loyalty?
  #129  
Old 10-10-2017, 09:23 PM
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It is ridiculously terrifying to take on a powerful person with allegations of sexual harassment or assault. Terrifying.
  #130  
Old 10-10-2017, 09:57 PM
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No, what's terrifying is charging a machine gun nest. And just as wars can't be won if soldiers aren't willing to do terrifying things, social justice wars also can't be won without overcoming that understandable fear.

Apparently in Hollywood, 99.9% of them don't have as much courage as the least courageous Army private.

Last edited by adaher; 10-10-2017 at 09:58 PM.
  #131  
Old 10-10-2017, 10:05 PM
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I assume that the army trains privates how to deal with their fears to charge a machine gun nest. Or is that an inborn trait of people who become army privates? The army also prides itself in being one huge support system for all its members.

Who trains aspiring actresses to risk their reputations, lives, and careers to take on a billionaire in court? Who acts as an inbuilt support system for that person? Who funds that lawsuit? Who helps that person rebuild her life after the almost inevitable loss and blacklisting from the industry?

You're saying that the victim of an abuse that exists almost solely because that victim is powerless is singularly responsible for overturning the entire power structure.

You're saying that the victim of abuse is responsible for risking everything for society, but society has no responsibility to that victim.

Last edited by Acsenray; 10-10-2017 at 10:07 PM.
  #132  
Old 10-10-2017, 10:13 PM
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I'm wiling to give victims a pass, but as was pointed out about Weinstein, his behavior was common knowledge and nobody said a thing in public. But that just invites further rationalization. If victims won't risk anything to stand up for themselves, why should others take risks standing up for them?

At some point, people need to start naming names, or nothing changes. If it's just too scary, then nothing's going to change so they might as well just return to business as usual right now, which seems to be the direction they are going in, although they'll first make some dramatic statements as Paltrow did:" This ends now". No it doesn't. Am I seriously supposed to believe that Paltrow knows only ONE sick man in Hollywood? Don't make dramatic statements about fighting if you're not going to fight. At this point taking on Weinstein is risk free.
  #133  
Old 10-10-2017, 10:35 PM
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If victims won't risk anything to stand up for themselves, why should others take risks standing up for them?
The victims have already been harmed, and the overwhelming likelihood is that they will suffer more harm if they speak up. And remember, they were chosen as victims because of their lack of power. How does it make sense to make the weakest in society responsible for changing the entire society? And you have the gall to call them cowards?

Go risk your own reputation and career and future and ability to support yourself and your family for them and then come back and talk about courage.

Sure, blame people who knew and had the power to stand up to Weinstein, but chose not to. Like his brother, for example. That's a different case.
  #134  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:16 AM
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No, what's terrifying is charging a machine gun nest. And just as wars can't be won if soldiers aren't willing to do terrifying things, social justice wars also can't be won without overcoming that understandable fear.

Apparently in Hollywood, 99.9% of them don't have as much courage as the least courageous Army private.
The thing about charging machine guns is that soldiers fight for the officer in front of them and the soldiers to their right and left. Courage is something soldiers give one another.

These women were fighting alone.
  #135  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:13 AM
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People often have this impression of people in Hollywood all living the high life, but most people who had heard things only heard gossip and had very little influence or sway and a hell of a lot to lose. It's too easy to dismiss the fear that people have of someone like Weinstein.
  #136  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:46 AM
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As mentioned upthread, in 2015 Italian model Ambra Gutierrez reported a sexual assault to the NYPD. Harvey Weinstein groped her breasts during a meeting he arranged with her agency after meeting her at a fashion show in NYC.

He called her while she was sitting with investigators from the Special Victims Division, annoyed that she had left the show. The investigators had her agree to go to the next night's show and meet with him while wearing a wire.

[clickbait]What investigators heard next will shock you.[/clickbait]

Just a short excerpt to illustrate the difference between asking someone out and sexual harassment, for those unable to grasp the difference. This is how a horndog in a position of power 'asks out' a woman whose career he can make or break like a twig.

Quote:
I'm telling you right now, get in here.

What do we have to do here?

Nothing. I'm going to take a shower, you sit there and have a drink.

I don't drink.

Then have a glass of water.

Can't I stay in the bar?

No, you must come in here now.

No.

Please?

No, I don't want to.

I'm not doing anything with you, I promise.

I know, I don't want to. I'm sorry, I cannot.

Now you're embarassing me.

No. Yesterday was kind of aggressive for me.

I know.

I need to know a person to be touched.

I won't do a thing, please.

I don't want to be touched.

I swear I won't, just sit with me. Don't embarass me in the hotel. I'm in here all the time.

I know, but I don't want to.

Sit with me, I promise -- Please sit there. Please. One minute. I ask you.

No, I can't.

Go to the bathroom.

Please, I don't want to do something I don't want to do.

Go to the bath -- hey, come here.

I don't want to.

Come here. Listen to me. I'm not gonna do anything.

I want to go downstairs.

You'll never see me again after this. OK? That's it.

Last edited by Crazyhorse; 10-11-2017 at 03:50 AM.
  #137  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:17 AM
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Very often, loyalty is not the most important virtue. And when that happens, it's better that a friendship end.

How far would you push this? What would your friend have to do to lose your loyalty?

I would push to the point where my friend became actively disloyal to his king. Or was cruel to animals or children ( or tortured anyone ): then they are scum.


I wouldn't inform on them if they were dealing drugs, or smuggling guns, or had, long ago, committed a murder; for the sake of the friendship --- whereas I might for a non-friend. I might drop them from my circle of acquaintances if the offence was heinous ( like that file-system inventor now in prison for murdering his wife ) but could still visit them in prison with a parcel of soup and a Chick Tract. The Obamas and Clintons are in the same boat --- they swore a sacred oath of friendship with the engaging Mr. Weinstein and they ain't gonna give now.


Plus they can, in addition, form a more Olympian view to the rest of us poor mortals not in the political class; a lot of their friends are sleazes.



When Oscar Wilde went to Reading, they kept his plays running in the West End, but withdrew his name from the posters outside. This has always been considered bad form.





NB: I rather assumed, only vaguely having heard of him, that he was about 80 and as fat as a tub
  #138  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:38 AM
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Unbelievable that some in this thread are actually defending this dirtbag. They actually seem incapable of distinguishing between asking a woman out on a date and leering at her while waggling your dick and demanding that she suck it or she'll never work in this town again. (That's probably Dr Deth's idea of a romantic evening.)

What's repellent too is the parade of male stars and producers all scrambling over the last few days to put on record their shock at Weinstein's behavior and how they had no idea at all that he did such things. As if. They all knew fucking well what their friend Harvey was up to and totally ignored it. Is Leonardo di Caprio really trying to tell us that he knows less about the goings on in Hollywood than John Q Public, because most of us have known for decades what a creep Weinstein was. It was an open secret, a running fucking joke, "Oh that Harvey, what a cunthound he is, can't keep his hands off the ladies. Great guy!" and now suddenly they're shocked. Tell it to the Marines.
  #139  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:43 AM
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No, what's terrifying is charging a machine gun nest. And just as wars can't be won if soldiers aren't willing to do terrifying things, social justice wars also can't be won without overcoming that understandable fear.

Apparently in Hollywood, 99.9% of them don't have as much courage as the least courageous Army private.
You mean the Army that has had hundreds of women and men over multiple decades come out and say they were assaulted by serial abusers and felt completely stymied at every turn because they felt the entire system was set up to protect their abusers? That Army?
  #140  
Old 10-11-2017, 05:24 AM
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The Obamas and Clintons have harshly criticized Weinstein:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...rvey-weinstein

Good for them. Should have happened a bit earlier, but that's far better than most Republicans did for Trump after his accusers came forward.
  #141  
Old 10-11-2017, 06:12 AM
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To sum up:

"The Left are scrambling to protect Harvey Weinstein!"

<The Left condemn Harvey Weinstein>

"The comedy shows aren't making jokes about him!"

<The comedy shows make jokes about him>

"Obama and the Clintons aren't condemning him because he's a big Democratic contributor!"

<Obama and the Clintons issue condemnations>

"Goddammit! Why won't you liberals be as unprincipled and hypocritical as we keep saying you are?"

As for why no one is naming names on the other offenders: the answer is that the people involved are incredibly powerful and well-connected, and you need someone who is both well-placed to make the accusation credibly and willing to take the hit both to their career and their reputation (given that pretty much all women making sexual harassment accusations are immediately accused of being sluts). Gretchen Carlson broke the dam at FoxNews, Ashley Judd broke the dam with Weinstein, and I'm guessing that if the accusers of Weinstein are believed a few more Hollywood dams will break.

Conversely I'm guessing that the other powerful, influential people in Hollywood likely to be in the firing line are currently engaged in various CYA exercises including rewriting history, making veiled threats against potential accusers and having long expensive conversations with their lawyers. They won't all go down easy.
  #142  
Old 10-11-2017, 06:58 AM
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I would push to the point where my friend became actively disloyal to his king. Or was cruel to animals or children ( or tortured anyone ): then they are scum.


I wouldn't inform on them if they were dealing drugs, or smuggling guns, or had, long ago, committed a murder; for the sake of the friendship --- whereas I might for a non-friend. I might drop them from my circle of acquaintances if the offence was heinous ( like that file-system inventor now in prison for murdering his wife )
This is an ethic I cannot endorse. It's very fucked up.
  #143  
Old 10-11-2017, 06:59 AM
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I would push to the point where my friend became actively disloyal to his king. Or was cruel to animals or children ( or tortured anyone ): then they are scum.


I wouldn't inform on them if they were dealing drugs, or smuggling guns, or had, long ago, committed a murder; for the sake of the friendship --- whereas I might for a non-friend. I might drop them from my circle of acquaintances if the offence was heinous ( like that file-system inventor now in prison for murdering his wife )
This is an ethic I cannot endorse. It's very fucked up. If this is what you mean by loyalty then I'd have to say that loyalty shouldn't be valued.
  #144  
Old 10-11-2017, 07:12 AM
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I still really hope that more women (and men, too -- Terry Crews told a pretty disgusting story about getting groped by a male executive) come forward and call these assholes out en masse. Let's pull the bandaid off the entire frickin' industry, and any other industries with similar systemic/cultural problems.
  #145  
Old 10-11-2017, 07:46 AM
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Details on Terry Crews' story:

https://www.avclub.com/terry-crews-r...ted-1819336072
  #146  
Old 10-11-2017, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by adaher View Post
No, what's terrifying is charging a machine gun nest. And just as wars can't be won if soldiers aren't willing to do terrifying things, social justice wars also can't be won without overcoming that understandable fear.

Apparently in Hollywood, 99.9% of them don't have as much courage as the least courageous Army private.
There have been times I would rather face down a machine gun than talk about some incidents. I stand by the statement that it is terrifying, especially when the offender has power and authority.

I feel I am uniquely qualified to make this particular statement and comparison.
  #147  
Old 10-11-2017, 08:50 AM
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Not much to add except I just heard that recording of Sweinestein and the latina actress he was trying to harangue into his hotel room.

What a loathsome shit stain. May he get every horrible punishment he's got coming to him: humiliation, divorce, law suits, crippling financial penalties, prison time, sexual predator record... all of it.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.

Last edited by QuickSilver; 10-11-2017 at 08:52 AM.
  #148  
Old 10-11-2017, 09:55 AM
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The victims have already been harmed, and the overwhelming likelihood is that they will suffer more harm if they speak up. And remember, they were chosen as victims because of their lack of power. How does it make sense to make the weakest in society responsible for changing the entire society? And you have the gall to call them cowards?

Go risk your own reputation and career and future and ability to support yourself and your family for them and then come back and talk about courage.

Sure, blame people who knew and had the power to stand up to Weinstein, but chose not to. Like his brother, for example. That's a different case.
That's my point, whether or not you were the direct victim, you risk your career, AND you're less credible because you only "heard" it happened in most cases.

All the cases I've read, there were no witnesses, just Weinstein and his victim. So it's understandable that the victims would be scared, but men who weren't there are supposed to speak up? That's insane.

The only way this works is if victims speak up, and people rally around them. If they won't name the perps, then there's nothing anyone can do.

Last edited by adaher; 10-11-2017 at 09:57 AM.
  #149  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I still really hope that more women (and men, too -- Terry Crews told a pretty disgusting story about getting groped by a male executive) come forward and call these assholes out en masse. Let's pull the bandaid off the entire frickin' industry, and any other industries with similar systemic/cultural problems.
Yeah, but in Crews' case and in alll the other non-Weinstein cases, the people are still doing what they do and it pretty much zero risk of getting busted.

In the first four days or so, I was willing to agree that these stories were courageous. Now I'm losing patience. Nothing changes until the scumbags are outed. What we're seeing now is the culture of sexual abuse by the powerful entrenched more than ever. If even the Weinstein story won't get people to talk, then the remaining abusers have to know they are safer than ever.
  #150  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:10 AM
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I understand the frustration, but people need to step up and "name names" when they feel safe and strong enough to do so - the hope is always as people see others step forward, they will also feel brave enough to do so.

Sadly, victim-blaming is still alive and well, and the personal cost can seem too high for some.
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