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  #151  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:47 AM
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If African-Americans had never hit the street and risked the dogs and firehoses and even deadly retaliation later as individuals, where would we be today? At some point, women have to stand up for their rights.
  #152  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:54 AM
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Hollywood male stars seizing the opportunity to show their outrage on social media should take care it doesn't bite them in their asses. Just hours after Ben Affleck said he was "saddened and angered" by Weinstein's sexual harassment of women Hilarie Burton, star of One Tree Hill, claimed Affleck groped her when she was a host of MTV’s TRL.

If the whole thing weren't so sad it would be hilarious.
  #153  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:10 AM
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You see, now THAT's what I'm talking about! Name names! If Ben Affleck is a turd, let it be known. Change can't come any other way.
  #154  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:11 AM
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Oh wow! You didn't tell me they had film!

Affleck is looking pretty screwed right now. IT's a shame. I liked the guy. But you can never really know with people.
  #155  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:13 AM
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If African-Americans had never hit the street and risked the dogs and firehoses and even deadly retaliation later as individuals, where would we be today? At some point, women have to stand up for their rights.
And they are...it doesn't happen all at once, and it's not a fast process. Look at what is going on, lawsuits and media exposes on people that were once considered untouchable - it is happening, all around us.

Hell, there are three class-action suits against the Canadian Armed Forces right now - that would have been unheard of only ten years ago. It's happening.
  #156  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:13 AM
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The Weinstein Board said they had no idea....no idea this sort of behavior was going on as they said it in this voice

https://youtu.be/SjbPi00k_ME
  #157  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:20 AM
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If African-Americans had never hit the street and risked the dogs and firehoses and even deadly retaliation later as individuals, where would we be today?
We'd probably have a President still haranguing black people for even the most benign forms of protest, oh wait...
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At some point, women have to stand up for their rights.
Your support for sexual harassment victims by telling them to ignore any incipient PTSD and go take on their incredibly powerful harassers at the potential risk of losing their livelihood and being blackballed by the entire film and television industry is an inspiration to us all.

But now I'm wondering how many Affleck-level offenders (who don't have the same level of clout as a Weinstein) are going to be outed in the coming weeks. Fun times in Hollywood.
  #158  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:27 AM
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I fully understand your argument, but let's be clear here: the victims do not face lynching, and even if their careers ended many of them would be just fine. There was no real risk for Paltrow or Jolie to out Weinstein years ago. And because they didn't, he created a lot more victims. And because of their continued silence on other abusers, more victims are created every day in that industry.

I do understand why they didn't and why they still won't. I can't claim that my courage is greater than theirs. But I can point out that things never change until people put themselves out on that limb. And that change is not possible if victims stay silent. Bystanders cannot bring about this change themselves. You know what happens to me if I see sexual harassment by a supervisor and I report it, but the victim won't corroborate? If it doesn't start with the victims themselves, then we might as well just give up and accept that this is how things are and how they always will be.

Sometimes things are hard. This is hard. It may not be fair that the victims are the ones that have to step up, but it's the only way. They either do it and empower themselves, or they don't and get victimized over and over.

Last edited by adaher; 10-11-2017 at 11:29 AM.
  #159  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:31 AM
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And I'd note that while Affleck isn't as powerful as Weinstein, he's grown to be a pretty big deal. Not just as an actor, but a top level director and producer now as well. He matters, and taking him on does carry risks. Although I suspect Affleck isnt the monster Weinstein is and won't retaliate against his accusers. He probably knows he did wrong and wishes it would just go away. But then again, I don't know him, so we'll find out.
  #160  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:37 AM
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I fully understand your argument, but let's be clear here: the victims do not face lynching, and even if their careers ended many of them would be just fine. There was no real risk for Paltrow or Jolie to out Weinstein years ago. And because they didn't, he created a lot more victims. And because of their continued silence on other abusers, more victims are created every day in that industry.

I do understand why they didn't and why they still won't. I can't claim that my courage is greater than theirs. But I can point out that things never change until people put themselves out on that limb. And that change is not possible if victims stay silent. Bystanders cannot bring about this change themselves. You know what happens to me if I see sexual harassment by a supervisor and I report it, but the victim won't corroborate? If it doesn't start with the victims themselves, then we might as well just give up and accept that this is how things are and how they always will be.

Sometimes things are hard. This is hard. It may not be fair that the victims are the ones that have to step up, but it's the only way. They either do it and empower themselves, or they don't and get victimized over and over.
I hope survivors come forward and tell their stories as well, but don't think that you can know what kind of courage it requires. You're falling into the trap of assuming you can reason out how these sorts of feelings can or should work. You can't -- no one who hasn't experienced it can (I can't either). By all means try to help make an environment in which people feel more comfortable telling the truth, but don't try to make it a moral imperative that victims of abuse must take certain actions. The problems of abuse are due to abusers, not due to any action or inaction by abused people. I hope people come forward, but the only moral imperative in this situation is for abusers to stop abusing people, and those who cover for the abusers to stop doing that as well.
  #161  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:49 AM
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I'm not making it a moral imperative. I'm making it a PRACTICAL imperative. They either do it, or things go back to the way they were after a decent interval. The cold, hard fact about this case is that the NY Times outed Weinstein, this is NOT a case of Hollywood policing itself. Now that he's down, he's getting kicked, but even that is more about self preservation for many people in the industry than anything else. Ben Affleck has been called out big time on his attempt to be on the "right" side of this issue while actually being a part of the problem.

Hollywood by it's nature is good at making things look important through drama and publicity, but anyone can see that all this drama is meant to protect the status quo.
  #162  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:19 PM
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Yeah, I think it's just the old-school guard who are perpetuating the casting couch these days, and even then most complaints will likely be from instances decades old. It is dying out
It would be great if this were true, but what are you basing this on? Apparently one of the reasons people are willing to publically accuse Weinstein now is because he doesn't have the same power to destroy careers as he once did. (My source for this is NPR's coverage of the issue.) Who's to say there isn't a younger version of Weinstein whose abuses won't come out for another decade or two?
  #163  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:21 PM
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And I didn't have to wait long for proof that nothing is changing:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/10/kat...er-1201885465/

Kate Winslet Breaks Her Silence on ‘Disgraceful and Appalling’ Harvey Weinstein Sex Abuse Allegations
Winslet next stars in Woody Allen's "Wonder Wheel," set for release December 1
  #164  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:33 PM
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And I didn't have to wait long for proof that nothing is changing:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/10/kat...er-1201885465/

Kate Winslet Breaks Her Silence on ‘Disgraceful and Appalling’ Harvey Weinstein Sex Abuse Allegations
Winslet next stars in Woody Allen's "Wonder Wheel," set for release December 1
Do you have any cites that Woody Allen has ever benefited from the casting couch?
  #165  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:33 PM
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I hope survivors come forward and tell their stories as well, but don't think that you can know what kind of courage it requires. You're falling into the trap of assuming you can reason out how these sorts of feelings can or should work. You can't -- no one who hasn't experienced it can (I can't either). By all means try to help make an environment in which people feel more comfortable telling the truth, but don't try to make it a moral imperative that victims of abuse must take certain actions. The problems of abuse are due to abusers, not due to any action or inaction by abused people. I hope people come forward, but the only moral imperative in this situation is for abusers to stop abusing people, and those who cover for the abusers to stop doing that as well.
I wish I could explain better - I can say that once, when I was backed into a corner and was going to have to tell my chain of command about one incident (and it wasn't a secret, in that one the offender was arrested, charged and convicted), I prayed that I would get into a car accident on the way into work.
I would rather have suffered physical injury than talk about what that incident was making me feel.

I am not "weak" (at least most people don't think so), but coming forward about this stuff is incredibly hard, and I will never think less of someone that decides not to. I always try to support and empower those that come to me, but I certainly can't make them face this pain.
  #166  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:46 PM
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I agree with that completely. The facts are what they are, but I certainly sympathize. I've been no braver.
  #167  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:09 PM
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Kate Winslet Breaks Her Silence on ‘Disgraceful and Appalling’ Harvey Weinstein Sex Abuse Allegations
Winslet next stars in Woody Allen's "Wonder Wheel," set for release December 1
Setting aside any compare/contrast of the allegations -- The movie releases in 41 days. What exactly did you expect Winslet to do? Go set fire to all the finished copies?
  #168  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:15 PM
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No, if she had a problem with sexual predators she wouldn't be doing Woody Allen movies. That goes double for Polanski.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:15 PM
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Looks like wife Georgina Chapman is leaving him, allegedly to protect her own brand (a smart thing to do IMO).
  #170  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:17 PM
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No, if she had a problem with sexual predators she wouldn't be doing Woody Allen movies. That goes double for Polanski.
Again, any cite that Woody Allen is actually a sexual predator that doesn't come from Mia Farrow.
  #171  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:24 PM
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Setting aside any compare/contrast of the allegations -- The movie releases in 41 days. What exactly did you expect Winslet to do? Go set fire to all the finished copies?
How about not make a movie with a pedophile?

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Originally Posted by madsircool
Again, any cite that Woody Allen is actually a sexual predator that doesn't come from Mia Farrow.
From the horse's mouth:

Quote:
when I was seven years old, Woody Allen took me by the hand and led me into a dim, closet-like attic on the second floor of our house. He told me to lay on my stomach and play with my brother’s electric train set. Then he sexually assaulted me. He talked to me while he did it, whispering that I was a good girl, that this was our secret, promising that we’d go to Paris and I’d be a star in his movies. I remember staring at that toy train, focusing on it as it traveled in its circle around the attic. To this day, I find it difficult to look at toy trains.

For as long as I could remember, my father had been doing things to me that I didn’t like. I didn’t like how often he would take me away from my mom, siblings and friends to be alone with him. I didn’t like it when he would stick his thumb in my mouth. I didn’t like it when I had to get in bed with him under the sheets when he was in his underwear. I didn’t like it when he would place his head in my naked lap and breathe in and breathe out. I would hide under beds or lock myself in the bathroom to avoid these encounters, but he always found me.
https://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-dylan-farrow/
  #172  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:25 PM
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Dylan Farrow as well. Now granted, it is possible that Allen is innocent, and I do not think that Allen should be driven out of Hollywood. But I do think that industry people who are serious about fighting sex abuse should consider him damaged goods. That's the only way to deter people like Weinstein. And given the testimony I've seen, I believe it is probable that Allen did it.

Now Polanski, he's just a damned rapist and should never make a movie again, much less get a standing ovation at the Oscars.
  #173  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:32 PM
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How about not make a movie with a pedophile?



From the horse's mouth:



https://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-dylan-farrow/
As I said, a non Farrow source. Pedophiles don't limit themselves to a single family. Bitter lying women use this to discredit out of favor lovers.
  #174  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:41 PM
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I think you're making WAY too broad a statement there, as some will actually limit themselves to one person in a family even though they have multiple kids to choose from. But it's true that most do not, so this is a piece of doubt in the Allen case. But I've heard Dylan's story many times, sounds like a classic escalation which may have come to a head when Allen and Farrow separated and got into a custody battle. And sure, the custody battle made Farrow's accusations suspicious, but Dylan has stuck to her story, which makes me come down on the side of Dylan. And I think that's where most people should fall, especially in an industry where this kind of thing is considered not terribly unusual.
  #175  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:00 PM
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For anyone who's still a wee bit confused as to what constitutes sexual harassment, Samantha Bee has provided a helpful FAQ:

https://medium.com/@fullfrontalsamb/...t-365b48084d5a
  #176  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:00 PM
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Woody Allen's response.

A few excerpts:

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I naïvely thought the accusation would be dismissed out of hand because of course, I hadn’t molested Dylan and any rational person would see the ploy for what it was. Common sense would prevail. After all, I was a 56-year-old man who had never before (or after) been accused of child molestation. I had been going out with Mia for 12 years and never in that time did she ever suggest to me anything resembling misconduct. Now, suddenly, when I had driven up to her house in Connecticut one afternoon to visit the kids for a few hours, when I would be on my raging adversary’s home turf, with half a dozen people present, when I was in the blissful early stages of a happy new relationship with the woman I’d go on to marry — that I would pick this moment in time to embark on a career as a child molester...
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Even the venue where the fabricated molestation was supposed to have taken place was poorly chosen but interesting. Mia chose the attic of her country house, a place she should have realized I’d never go to because it is a tiny, cramped, enclosed spot where one can hardly stand up and I’m a major claustrophobe. The one or two times she asked me to come in there to look at something, I did, but quickly had to run out. Undoubtedly the attic idea came to her from the Dory Previn song, “With My Daddy in the Attic.” It was on the same record as the song Dory Previn had written about Mia’s betraying their friendship by insidiously stealing her husband, André, “Beware of Young Girls.”
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Notwithstanding, Mia insisted that I had abused Dylan and took her immediately to a doctor to be examined. Dylan told the doctor she had not been molested. Mia then took Dylan out for ice cream, and when she came back with her the child had changed her story.
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Last week a woman named Stacey Nelkin, whom I had dated many years ago, came forward to the press to tell them that when Mia and I first had our custody battle 21 years ago, Mia had wanted her to testify that she had been underage when I was dating her, despite the fact this was untrue. Stacey refused. I include this anecdote so we all know what kind of character we are dealing with here.
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I very willingly took a lie-detector test and of course passed because I had nothing to hide. I asked Mia to take one and she wouldn’t.
Quite a piece of work Mia Farrow is.
  #177  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:02 PM
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You're probably going to crucify me for this but isn't there a dichotomy between US culture and *other* - Winslett can't conceive of it happening because no one would think to try anything on with her, and the Italian went straight to the police and wore a wire. The American women took money from him.

I read one young British actress felt violated because he wore a bath robe in his hotel room. I wonder if he was more cautious outside his own culture.
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Last edited by up_the_junction; 10-11-2017 at 02:03 PM.
  #178  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:04 PM
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The sound and fury from the right is thunderous. A remarkable departure from the silence when the accused were Trump, Ailes et al. It's heart-warming to see such wholehearted condemnation. I wonder what's changed in the past few months.
  #179  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:07 PM
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Are you crazy?


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Originally Posted by treis View Post
Clinton has been accused of rape, exposing himself, and forcing himself on women. If you believe the accusations then he definitely is a sexual predator.
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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
Clinton wasn't a sexual predator, and that was never the issue. Trump was, and that was the central issue. Clinton didn't get elected despite such allegations, because there weren't any. Trump got elected despite video proof of them. If you're trying to make some point about how the two sides judge their politicians, I can't help you if you can't see this blatant difference.

My point in any case is that Harvey Weinstein is far less important to the national psyche than the current occupant of the most important leadership position in the nation. And his actions are being condemned, as they should be.
Trump is boorish and his “locker room talk” is repulsive, but Bill Clinton has been accused of sexual assault several times and his accusers have never backed off of their claims. If the accusations of Mr Weinstein are true, he should go to jail for sexual assault.
  #180  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:09 PM
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For anyone who's still a wee bit confused as to what constitutes sexual harassment, Samantha Bee has provided a helpful FAQ:

https://medium.com/@fullfrontalsamb/...t-365b48084d5a
She makes it sound easy. Yes, it's very easy to not be a piece of shit. It's a lot harder to not make a faux pas that can cause an incident. Many companies define sexual harassment barely at all, saying it's "in the eye of the beholder". Which is true, but actual disciplinary offenses should have bright lines.

One interesting thing she did say was, "Don't touch your coworkers". This is probably good advice and I myself don't ever touch people who aren't family or close friends. But some people, many actually, are casual touchers. The kinds of people who like to put a hand on the shoulder, many women who like to put her hand on your hand while she tells you something, and of course the omnipresent back slappers. Not touching anyone is probably a good rule for professionalism, but there is a clear seperation of sexes issue here, since guys are always touching each other and girls are always touching each other. Which gives guys a personal advantage with other guys and leaves women at a disadvantage, much as in the case of private meetings that many male managers won't do with female co-workers now.

So we should probably stop touching each other and definitely stop fraternizing after work. and we still haven't solved the issue of how to handle things when a person unintentionally says something racially or sexually charged out of ignorance, slip of the tongue, or lame attempt at a joke. Oh yeah, jokes at work. Bad also.
  #181  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:14 PM
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Trump is boorish and his “locker room talk” is repulsive, but Bill Clinton has been accused of sexual assault several times and his accusers have never backed off of their claims. If the accusations of Mr Weinstein are true, he should go to jail for sexual assault.
Trump has been accused of sexual assault several times and his accusers have never backed off their claims.
  #182  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:15 PM
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The sound and fury from the right is thunderous. A remarkable departure from the silence when the accused were Trump, Ailes et al. It's heart-warming to see such wholehearted condemnation. I wonder what's changed in the past few months.
Speaking from my own Republican or post-Republican perspective, I had already excluded Trump as a possibility and there are so many outrageous things about him that focusing on his treatment of women is just picking one thing out of a huge basket of awfulness.

Now if Trump was an otherwise solid candidate with these allegations and that "grab 'em by the pussy" tape, it would have been a HUGE deal. But Trump is just so awful that it's all the media can do to just keep up with the daily awful things he does.

But I'll tell ya what, sexual misconduct in politics is almost certainly at least as bad as that in Hollywood and if this serves to out a LOT of politicians, I'm all for it. This isn't just about Hollywood. If victims start coming forward against Hollywood producers and actors and such, then maybe they'll start coming out against politicians, business leaders, military rape culture, music industry rape culture, and maybe THAT will starta conversation about what we should be doing about Uncle Joe who you can't leave the kids alone with.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:16 PM
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I think you're making WAY too broad a statement there, as some will actually limit themselves to one person in a family even though they have multiple kids to choose from.
You're absolutely correct about this.

Speaking in general, I think the accuser is more credible than the alleged perpetrator in most such cases. Child molestation is not nearly as rare as many people seem to think, and when it occurs there is an obvious incentive for the molester to lie and deny it. On the other hand, there is very little incentive for someone (even when involved in a bitter divorce) to lie and make accusations, especially if they're being advised by anyone with experience in how this sort of thing normally plays out. Allegations of sexual abuse against children tend not to be believed and are frequently used to attack the credibility of the person making the allegation. When the alleged perpetrator is a famous celebrity, this also can lead to the accuser being demonized, harrassed, subjected to death threats, etc. from the public at large.

I know someone who ran a non-profit that provided counseling and legal services for victims of child molestation and their non-offending family members. This was someone who had been doing this for many years, had helped design widely used protocols for interviewing possible child victims, had been asked to consult on cases all over the country, etc. They would routinely advise women involved in custody disputes not to mention the fact that the husband was molesting the kids, because they would be portrayed as a liar and it actually reduced the woman's chances of getting custody.
  #184  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:18 PM
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Trump is boorish and his “locker room talk” is repulsive, but Bill Clinton has been accused of sexual assault several times and his accusers have never backed off of their claims. If the accusations of Mr Weinstein are true, he should go to jail for sexual assault.
The evidence against Clinton is weaker than that against Weinstein and Cosby, but stronger than that against Woody Allen. While I don't buy the "all women should be believed" dichotomy, I do think most women are telling the truth and I've never met a poonhound who manages to stick to strict rules of consent 100% of the time.

Clinton is no monster, but he's certainly a pig and in 2017 he should be regarded as part of the problem, not a hero to be celebrated. and that goes for his enabler in chief too.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:19 PM
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You're absolutely correct about this.

YES! YES! YES! Finally! Adaher for the win!
  #186  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:20 PM
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Dylan Farrow as well. Now granted, it is possible that Allen is innocent, and I do not think that Allen should be driven out of Hollywood. But I do think that industry people who are serious about fighting sex abuse should consider him damaged goods. That's the only way to deter people like Weinstein. And given the testimony I've seen, I believe it is probable that Allen did it.
My opinion is that it's unlikely that Allen molested Dylan Farrow. Dylan Farrow was seven when this allegedly happened and living primarily with her mother, Mia Farrow. Allen and Farrow were in the middle of a very bitter break-up.

Dylan and Mia Farrow made the accusation against Allen and Dylan was examined and interviewed by sexual abuse professionals who concluded she hadn't been abused. Law enforcement officials also investigated and found no evidence to corroborate the allegations. Moses Farrow, Dylan's older brother (he was fourteen at the time of the incident) was present at the time the molestation allegedly occurred and has said it never happened.

I'll note the contrast between the aftermath of this allegations and the sexual allegations made against Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, or Bill O'Reilly. In all of those cases once one person stepped forward with an allegation, several other accusers corroborated similar incidents. This never happened with Allen. There have never been any other accusations of him showing any sexual interest in children. The only people who are saying Allen molested Dylan are Mia Farrow, Dylan Farrow (who now goes by the name Malone), and Satchel Ronan Farrow who was five when this allegedly happened.

So which seems more likely? That a man, who has no history of sexual contact with children, would decide to go to his ex's house while they were in the middle of a heated legal battle and molest their seven year old daughter? Or that a woman engaged in a heated legal battle with her ex would convince her two young children to make false allegations against her ex?
  #187  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:22 PM
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Hollywood has a problem


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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
That actually makes it worse. They didn't fire him because of sexual harassment, they fired him due to unfavorable publicity due to allegations of sexual harassment. They were obviously fine with him doing whatever he did. But not the publicity.
And that’s the problem. Hollywood claims to be so progressive but fine with men in power being sexual predators.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:25 PM
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Speaking in general, I think the accuser is more credible than the alleged perpetrator in most such cases.
In general I agree, but we live in a world of crazy people who do crazy things and in most proven false accusations I've read about the accuser is not someone who behaves rationally. So while I'd agree that most are telling the truth, there's always some doubt. It seems to me that the most challenging thing to do is to believe the accuser but not crucify the accused when his or her guilt is in doubt.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:25 PM
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The evidence against Clinton is weaker than that against Weinstein and Cosby, but stronger than that against Woody Allen. While I don't buy the "all women should be believed" dichotomy, I do think most women are telling the truth and I've never met a poonhound who manages to stick to strict rules of consent 100% of the time.

Clinton is no monster, but he's certainly a pig and in 2017 he should be regarded as part of the problem, not a hero to be celebrated. and that goes for his enabler in chief too.
Pretty monstrous to go after a 19 yo intern in the Oval Office
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:26 PM
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And that’s the problem. Hollywood claims to be so progressive but fine with men in power being sexual predators.
I think Hollywood is probably the most hypocritical on this count given their advocacy, but I think this is an almost universal condition, not just in business, but in the family.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:27 PM
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Pretty monstrous to go after a 19 yo intern in the Oval Office
Consensual behavior has nothing to do with sexual assault. There are accusations of assault against Clinton (and Trump), but that's not one of them. If Clinton had, say, bragged on tape about sexually assaulting women, that would be additional evidence on top of these accusations.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:28 PM
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And if Juanita Broderick is to be believed, Clinton flat out forcibly raped her, kissing her so roughly while doing so that it left her with a cut and swollen lip, for which he callously suggested ice as he left the room.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:28 PM
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Pretty monstrous to go after a 19 yo intern in the Oval Office
24 actually. Certainly inappropriate, but no question it was consensual and he didn't pressure her at all. She was an extremely willing partner. Lewinsky is just an example of him being a pig. THe Broaddick and Jones cases are much more problematic. His turning a blind eye to Jeffrey Epstein was also an example of what's wrong with the world.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:30 PM
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And if Juanita Broderick is to be believed, Clinton flat out forcibly raped her, kissing her so roughly while doing so that it left her with a cut and swollen lip, for which he callously suggested ice as he left the room.
And what makes that story credible is that it's a very specific Bill fetish(lip biting) that was not known to be a standard thing with him.

I'm not saying we should put Bill in jail for this or impeach him(he shouldn't have been impeached in the first place), but she does deserve to be believed. While allowing for some doubt. Rejecting her testimony out of hand because it's inconvenient is part of the problem.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:30 PM
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Now if Trump was an otherwise solid candidate with these allegations and that "grab 'em by the pussy" tape, it would have been a HUGE deal. But Trump is just so awful that it's all the media can do to just keep up with the daily awful things he does.
How do you think Donald Trump met his future wife? At a quiet dinner orgnised by friends who thought they were well suited, at work across a busy office, maybe in a coffee shop when he just took a chance and smiled, maybe they were at the same movie, alone, and met in the queue for popcorn?

I don't think you quite grasp the kind of world Trump and HW operate in. This is a world where women competing with Melania for a moment's glimpse from Trump - to just be in the same room, with dozens of other women - would hand out blowjobs and more to doormen week after week.

This is a hyper-hyper competitive world where nothing matters other than a life beyond the mundane, where the way you look is everything, and where Trump knows he is a target for literally hundreds of aspirational women.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:33 PM
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No, if she had a problem with sexual predators she wouldn't be doing Woody Allen movies. That goes double for Polanski.
Your post said that Winslet's film was proof that the Weinstein allegations wouldn't change anything. Perhaps unintended by it read as though you expected Winslet to act differently in the wake of the Weinstein story. Which would be, of course, impossible when her film was already finished before the story broke.

It sounds as though you actually meant that "No one stopped working with Allen so no one will care about this" which makes more chronological sense but is far too early to tell.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:43 PM
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What I'm getting at is that I see no self-reflection on changing behavior. The condemnations of Weinstein are expected and seem to be delayed primarily according to how fast their publicists could compose a good statement. They have to condemn him so they are, but their past behavior and no acknowledgement of their own past sins so to speak does not inspire confidence that there will be any changes.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:52 PM
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And if Juanita Broderick is to be believed, Clinton flat out forcibly raped her, kissing her so roughly while doing so that it left her with a cut and swollen lip, for which he callously suggested ice as he left the room.
There is a woman who claims Trump raped her when she was thirteen years old. People like you only believe the claims that suit your ideology.

I also agree with pretty much everything Adaher has written in this thread. The problem is abuse of power, and it happens everywhere.
  #199  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Starving Artist View Post
Woody Allen's response.

A few excerpts:

Quite a piece of work Mia Farrow is.
I'm not particularly familiar with the details of Woody Allen's case, but I'm not sure what you find so pursuasive above. In particular, lie detectors are bullshit pseudo-science, whose greatest value seems to be in tricking people into confessing things.

Regarding the claim that the kid at first denied it to the doctor, assuming that's true it still doesn't tell me much. Pedophiles often spend years "grooming" their victims, playing all sorts of mind games to get them not to tell anyone. To give one horrific example, I know of a case where someone had a small child convinced that the perpetrator could see them at all times, and could even wear the skin of other family members as a disguise, so the kid wouldn't dare tell anyone what was happening. I know of another case with an older kid who was told that the perpetrator would murder their family if they told. In many cases kids are told no one would believe them, or that they would be the one who was blamed (both of which are, sadly, sometimes true). [My wife studied child molestation in graduate school (social work), which is why I have a lot of child abuse anecdotes.]
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:15 PM
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As I said, a non Farrow source. Pedophiles don't limit themselves to a single family. Bitter lying women use this to discredit out of favor lovers.
Cite?

This has been very much on my mind lately. I have recently reconnected with some childhood friends and several of them have been talking about being sexually abused as young children -- not by immediate family members but relatives and neighbors. I'm kind of amazed at how prevalent it was. And I'm 60, this happened a long time ago. And these women still carry the scars.

This abuse was very psychologically damaging and caused them to behave in ways that made them more susceptible to abuse as teenagers and young adults. They abused drugs. They behaved seductively with older men. And plenty of men that would never consider themselves pedophiles were all in with screwing a willing 12 or 13 year old girl. And this behavior made them less than credible. One of this women carried so much anger for so long that she contacted the abuser 35 years later and tried to extort money from him - it didn't work but she ended up telling his family. And I'm sure he just told them she was a bitter lying slut. And she didn't even really want or need money, she was just so angry that she had been so damaged and that this guy got away with it.

Yes, it was a crazy thing to do and I don't condone it. Maybe she was bitter as she felt she would have had a different and better life had the abuse not occurred when she was six. But she wasn't lying.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 10-11-2017 at 03:16 PM.
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