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  #51  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:30 PM
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That still doesn't make any sense given the illness and deaths we're seeing in other nations.
  #52  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:32 PM
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EDIT: never mind.

Last edited by Fiendish Astronaut; 03-04-2020 at 12:35 PM.
  #53  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:36 PM
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No, my conjecture is NOT "it's only serious when in combination with a vaping related illness". My conjecture is: it is not a monster virus, it is a run of the mill virus, and the reason a run of the mill virus caused the Chinese to freak out so dramatically, is that their population had a newly prevalent form of lung damage from vaping bad additives, just as black market vapers in the USA were noted to have by the CDC back in September 2019.
I cannot find any evidence that China had the lung damage cases that the U.S. had. They made the suspect counterfeits, but apparently just for export.

You're basing your entire argument on your imagination. There is no known connection between vaping lung damage and coronavirus. You have not found a single cite that says that. Why do you persist in this fantasy?
  #54  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:11 PM
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I cannot find any evidence that China had the lung damage cases that the U.S. had. They made the suspect counterfeits, but apparently just for export.

You're basing your entire argument on your imagination. There is no known connection between vaping lung damage and coronavirus. You have not found a single cite that says that. Why do you persist in this fantasy?
You want a cite? I posted this link before:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1181292.shtml
Some lung experts in Wuhan are now thinking very similarly. Others have noted it is kind of reversed, and interpreting them as saying "Hey, USA you found the vape lung, but the coronavirus may have been there too". But I am willing to bet the Wuhan experts also have made the same conjecture for the genesis of the "freak out" as I have though. This is because the USA did not freak out when they noticed vape lung, and by any reasonable measure there was no reason to freak out, even if the coronavirus was there back then as the final straw sending the people with vape lung to the hospital. Because if the coronavirus was circulating then, it wasn't causing alarming pneumonia after adjusting for vape lung. And if that is true, it is just a run of the mill virus, not a monster virus. To think of it another way: if the world realizes the coronavirus is a run of the mill virus and not a monster virus, and I bet they will, the question will become: why did the Chinese freak out? I think the answer will be "vape lung".
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Old 03-04-2020, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
You want a cite? I posted this link before:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1181292.shtml
Some lung experts in Wuhan are now thinking very similarly.
If you actually read the article there is no evidence for the link, just conjecture. And the people looking haven't presented any evidence to support this.
  #56  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
My conjecture is: it is not a monster virus, it is a run of the mill virus, and the reason a run of the mill virus caused the Chinese to freak out so dramatically, is that their population had a newly prevalent form of lung damage from vaping bad additives, just as black market vapers in the USA were noted to have by the CDC back in September 2019.
Except the evidence doesn't support that. At all. Time to move on.
  #57  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:20 PM
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If you actually read the article there is no evidence for the link, just conjecture.
And not just conjecture but deflection. To me, this article from a state-sponsored communication, reads like an attempt to shift the focus away from China (and to the US).
  #58  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:33 PM
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You want a cite? I posted this link before:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1181292.shtml....
Do you have any better cites than literal Chinese government propaganda? I think we should have higher standards in GQ that actual propaganda from a country looking to CYA.
  #59  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
You want a cite? I posted this link before:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1181292.shtml
Some lung experts in Wuhan are now thinking very similarly. Others have noted it is kind of reversed, and interpreting them as saying "Hey, USA you found the vape lung, but the coronavirus may have been there too". But I am willing to bet the Wuhan experts also have made the same conjecture for the genesis of the "freak out" as I have though. This is because the USA did not freak out when they noticed vape lung, and by any reasonable measure there was no reason to freak out, even if the coronavirus was there back then as the final straw sending the people with vape lung to the hospital. Because if the coronavirus was circulating then, it wasn't causing alarming pneumonia after adjusting for vape lung. And if that is true, it is just a run of the mill virus, not a monster virus. To think of it another way: if the world realizes the coronavirus is a run of the mill virus and not a monster virus, and I bet they will, the question will become: why did the Chinese freak out? I think the answer will be "vape lung".
Sigh. More than 60 countries on every continent except Antarctica have confirmed coronavirus cases. None except the U.S. had vaping lung damage cases. Yet all around the world health officials and governments are freaking out, closing schools, shutting factories, postponing crowd events. Why? How can everybody in the world except you be deluded on a matter of literal life and death?
  #60  
Old 03-04-2020, 03:27 PM
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Sigh. More than 60 countries on every continent except Antarctica have confirmed coronavirus cases. None except the U.S. had vaping lung damage cases. Yet all around the world health officials and governments are freaking out, closing schools, shutting factories, postponing crowd events. Why? How can everybody in the world except you be deluded on a matter of literal life and death?
I think they are freaking out because the Chinese freaked out. I conjecture that when more data rolls in, the world will conclude it is a run of the mill virus, and wonder why the Chinese freaked out.

Last edited by Jim Peebles; 03-04-2020 at 03:30 PM.
  #61  
Old 03-04-2020, 04:16 PM
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I think they are freaking out because the Chinese freaked out.
Well, that, and all the people dying
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Old 03-04-2020, 04:21 PM
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I think they are freaking out because the Chinese freaked out. I conjecture that when more data rolls in, the world will conclude it is a run of the mill virus, and wonder why the Chinese freaked out.
You donít need a comorbid vaping disease to explain the lethality of SARS-CoV2, because itís well enough explained by the its high affinity for ACE-2 receptor sites, which are present in both the cilial cells and type-2 pneumocytes deep in the lungs. In attacking those cells, the virus makes it harder for the lungs to clear fluid as well as making the smaller alveoli harder to inflate.
  #63  
Old 03-04-2020, 05:41 PM
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You donít need a comorbid vaping disease to explain the lethality of SARS-CoV2, because itís well enough explained by the its high affinity for ACE-2 receptor sites, which are present in both the cilial cells and type-2 pneumocytes deep in the lungs. . . .
I wonder, only semi-facetiously, whether the reason it's killing older folks is related to the fact that older people are more likely to be using ACE-inhibitors.
  #64  
Old 03-04-2020, 06:42 PM
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I wonder, only semi-facetiously, whether the reason it's killing older folks is related to the fact that older people are more likely to be using ACE-inhibitors.
LOL, wouldn't ACE-I use thus block the sites and reduce infections? And how would ARBs affect things?
  #65  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:16 PM
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LOL, wouldn't ACE-I use thus block the sites and reduce infections?
Maybe it protects! On the other hand, maybe it upregulates them. I have no idea and actually took a superficial look through Pubmed when I first heard that ACE2 is the receptor for the virus. There wasn't much out there that I could find. I'm not even sure that the ACE we know and love is controlled/regulated in the same way as the virus receptor. But ICES makes Ontario a great place to get relevant population data and possibly answer questions like this.
  #66  
Old 03-05-2020, 12:42 AM
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I think they are freaking out because the Chinese freaked out. I conjecture that when more data rolls in, the world will conclude it is a run of the mill virus, and wonder why the Chinese freaked out.
Since you seem to have an issue with connecting evidence and argument, how about approaching this in a different way?

What level of mortality or other measure(s) would you set as convincing evidence that indicated it was not 'run of the mill' or an over-hyped reaction?

I think that is a reasonable question to ask you since you're the one making the claim. It would distinguish between someone who is genuinely offering a critical / sceptical perspective from a denialist, against which no level of deaths among non-vaping humans would be sufficiently convincing.
  #67  
Old 03-05-2020, 07:08 AM
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I wonder, only semi-facetiously, whether the reason it's killing older folks is related to the fact that older people are more likely to be using ACE-inhibitors.
The extant ACE-inhibitors donít inhibit ACE-2 receptors, and if they did IĎd think it would be protective. Having said that, use of ACE inhibitors have been associated with a decreased pneumonia risk.
  #68  
Old 03-05-2020, 05:12 PM
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I think they are freaking out because the Chinese freaked out. I conjecture that when more data rolls in, the world will conclude it is a run of the mill virus, and wonder why the Chinese freaked out.
I think you want this linked to vaping as some sort of magic shield, so you can say "hey, I don't vape - I'm safe!".

Sorry, that is not congruent with reality.
  #69  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:13 AM
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I think they are freaking out because the Chinese freaked out. I conjecture that when more data rolls in, the world will conclude it is a run of the mill virus, and wonder why the Chinese freaked out.
Maybe the "freaking out" has something to do with the thousands of real, actual deaths that are occurring. More than 7,500 people have died of this in Italy, and Spain just passed 4,000 deaths. In Italy, those 7,500 deaths from COVID-19 have happened in less than a month, and Spain had lost 4,000 people in less than three weeks.

There are reasonable arguments to be made about what the proper response might be to this outbreak. Some people are arguing that the current lockdown policies are too broad, and that we would be better to adopt a more targeted set of policies. But no-one with any credibility whatsoever is denying that the virus itself, and the illness it causes, are serious and present a clear danger to the global community.

There might be some "freaking out" going on, but it's in response to an actual threat that is actually killing actual people. For you to keep suggesting otherwise, based on what you admit is nothing but conjecture, is, quite frankly, idiotic and irresponsible.
  #70  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:07 AM
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The extant ACE-inhibitors donít inhibit ACE-2 receptors, and if they did IĎd think it would be protective. Having said that, use of ACE inhibitors have been associated with a decreased pneumonia risk.
I just read that scientists noticed in animals on some med (heart?) that inhibited ACE receptors, there was an increase in ACE2. They were thinking it may apply to humans and something worth looking into regarding why underlying heart probs seem to be a weakness when it comes to covid-19.
  #71  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
No, my conjecture is NOT "it's only serious when in combination with a vaping related illness". My conjecture is: it is not a monster virus, it is a run of the mill virus, and the reason a run of the mill virus caused the Chinese to freak out so dramatically, is that their population had a newly prevalent form of lung damage from vaping bad additives, just as black market vapers in the USA were noted to have by the CDC back in September 2019.
How does this conjecture fit with what is happening in the rest of the world, right now?
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