Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 03-21-2020, 06:26 PM
Steven_Maven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Chicago north suburbs
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss View Post
Much like "star dates," I think TOS just sort of made things up as they went along..
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatio Hellpop View Post
"Warp 10 turns you into lizards" sounded pretty lazy to me.
I always thought that the maximum speed of Warp 9 in TOS was just a limitation of technology at that time, and they fully expected to achieve Warp 10 and higher at some future date? Did I just make that up?

Subsequent posts mention that TNG was inconsistent on this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Warp 1: c
Warp 2: 8c
Warp 3: 27c
...
Warp 9: 729c
Thanks for finding a Primary Source. I remembered seeing that chart years ago but had forgotten the specifics.

The flaw is Warp 1. Even if you accept the concept of Warp Drive, an object traveling at exactly c would have infinite mass. Once you exceed c, your mass becomes an imaginary number (multiple of the square root of -1), so there is something to work with.

Last edited by Steven_Maven; 03-21-2020 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Clarification
  #52  
Old 03-21-2020, 06:50 PM
Just Asking Questions is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_Maven View Post
I always thought that the maximum speed of Warp 9 in TOS was just a limitation of technology at that time, and they fully expected to achieve Warp 10 and higher at some future date? Did I just make that up?
Sort of. They didn't exceed Warp 14 in at least one episodes. Nomad altered the engines so they could go faster, but I got the impression the hull was not improved to match. and they went however fast you have to go to do 2 million light years in a century.

But it was a limit of the ship, not the theory. The Enterprise would get structural damage, to the point of destruction, the longer they went above Warp 6. How long was room long was dependent on plot.

But on TNG the reconfigured warp scale made Warp 10 an absolute maximum. Theoretically impossible to exceed. Like dividing by zero.

Until the plot demanded it. We do not speak of lizard babies.
  #53  
Old 03-21-2020, 08:37 PM
DPRK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,721
If there is one thing this thread has made clear, it is that while a few people evidently came up with "theories" and official guidelines and impressive-looking graphs and technical manuals, face it, the writers of the following week's episode already felt free to completely ignore them, the same way they always ignore most of the implications of, as well as explicitly stated facts about, the bizarre future tech described.

Now, in last week's episode, the crew of the Sirena remarked that, wow, they just came 25 light years in 15 minutes [using a Borg hyperspace bypass], while the pursuing Romulan fleet (presumably using conventional warp drive) would take a couple of days to catch up- the writers wisely did not bother trying to shoehorn in any warp factor calculations.
  #54  
Old 03-21-2020, 08:55 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_Maven View Post
The flaw is Warp 1. Even if you accept the concept of Warp Drive, an object traveling at exactly c would have infinite mass. Once you exceed c, your mass becomes an imaginary number (multiple of the square root of -1), so there is something to work with.
So warp 1 is 1.1 x C.
Get over it.
  #55  
Old 03-21-2020, 10:26 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is online now
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 87,256
The whole point of a warp drive is that it bypasses relativistic dilation factors.
  #56  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:52 AM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
The whole point of a warp drive is that it bypasses relativistic dilation factors.
Not to mention inertia.
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."
  #57  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:56 AM
AncientHumanoid's Avatar
AncientHumanoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Quantum foam
Posts: 24,561
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Inertial_damper
__________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
  #58  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:00 AM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
Sort of. They didn't exceed Warp 14 in at least one episodes. Nomad altered the engines so they could go faster, but I got the impression the hull was not improved to match. and they went however fast you have to go to do 2 million light years in a century.

But it was a limit of the ship, not the theory. The Enterprise would get structural damage, to the point of destruction, the longer they went above Warp 6. How long was room long was dependent on plot.
The Kelvans rigged it so they could travel to Andromeda (2.537 ly) in around 300 years. That'd be approximately 8,457 times the speed of light.

What's the cube root of that?

REPLY: 20.374. So WF 20, plus a bit more.
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."

Last edited by terentii; 03-22-2020 at 07:04 AM.
  #59  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:06 AM
AncientHumanoid's Avatar
AncientHumanoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Quantum foam
Posts: 24,561
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Inertial_damper

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Inertial_dampener
__________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
  #60  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:11 AM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
By its nature, a warp field would have to negate the effects of inertia all on its own. The ship and all of its contents remain in their own frame of reference and thus are not subject to them.
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."
  #61  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:25 AM
AncientHumanoid's Avatar
AncientHumanoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Quantum foam
Posts: 24,561
The transtator

Universal translator

Dilithium

Impulse drive

Warp

Inertial dampening

Ripped shirt Kirk

Replicators

AI

All some fun tools for writers to use and fans to nitpick. ( I'm a very early member of Phil Farrand Nitpickers Guild. Wrote a couple of small newsletter articles in the early print version, whenever that was)
__________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.

Last edited by AncientHumanoid; 03-22-2020 at 07:30 AM.
  #62  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:34 AM
AncientHumanoid's Avatar
AncientHumanoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Quantum foam
Posts: 24,561
Nitpicking 80s or early 90s... the snail mail yellow paper version newsletter circulated before his 1st book. Wish I had kept them. We shared them at work
__________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
  #63  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:22 AM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
By its nature, a warp field would have to negate the effects of inertia all on its own. The ship and all of its contents remain in their own frame of reference and thus are not subject to them.
Good point.
  #64  
Old 03-22-2020, 10:37 AM
Just Asking Questions is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
The Kelvans rigged it so they could travel to Andromeda (2.537 ly) in around 300 years. That'd be approximately 8,457 times the speed of light.

What's the cube root of that?

REPLY: 20.374. So WF 20, plus a bit more.
Thanks. I didn't feel like looking up the actual time of the trip. I should have.
  #65  
Old 03-22-2020, 11:03 AM
Steven_Maven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Chicago north suburbs
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
The Kelvans rigged it so they could travel to Andromeda (2.537 ly) in around 300 years. That'd be approximately 8,457 times the speed of light.

What's the cube root of that?

REPLY: 20.374. So WF 20, plus a bit more.
Isnít the distance to Andromeda 2.5 MILLION light years?
  #66  
Old 03-22-2020, 11:38 AM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_Maven View Post
Isnít the distance to Andromeda 2.5 MILLION light years?
Quite right. An oversight on my part: 2.537 million ly.
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."
  #67  
Old 03-22-2020, 12:29 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 221B Baker St.
Posts: 88,906
Aw, what's a few hundred thousand light years between friends?
  #68  
Old 03-22-2020, 02:06 PM
Icerigger's Avatar
Icerigger is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 3,436
BTW Nomad's energy bolts traveled at warp 15. The old Spaceflight Chronology Book from STTMP lists the refurbished Enterprise's maximum speed as warp 12. TNG's "no greater than warp 10" is just silly. The maximum speed of various ships warp 9.8
9.875, 9.975, 9.976, 9.977 etc. silly, they should have stuck with the old formula.
  #69  
Old 03-22-2020, 03:45 PM
RioRico is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: beyond cell service
Posts: 2,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
Aw, what's a few hundred thousand light years between friends?
Far enough to be out of WiFi range. And Bluetooth? No way. Cue the ansible.
  #70  
Old 03-22-2020, 04:46 PM
DesertDog is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Mesa, Ariz.
Posts: 6,247
Here is a four minute YouTube animation that answers the original question.
  #71  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:20 PM
dzeiger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Frisco, Tx
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icerigger View Post
BTW Nomad's energy bolts traveled at warp 15. The old Spaceflight Chronology Book from STTMP lists the refurbished Enterprise's maximum speed as warp 12. TNG's "no greater than warp 10" is just silly. The maximum speed of various ships warp 9.8
9.875, 9.975, 9.976, 9.977 etc. silly, they should have stuck with the old formula.
But is the TNG Warp factor the same as TOS? We got introduced to Transwarp drive, so maybe TNG is really "Transwarp Factor 10" (or whatever other generations of tech came between them)
  #72  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:50 PM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
I haven't watched Enterprise in something like 15 years, but wasn't the absolute theoretical limit there warp 2 or warp 5? Seems the powers that be just can't settle on a fixed figure.
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."
  #73  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:05 PM
Kamino Neko's Avatar
Kamino Neko is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alternate 230
Posts: 15,600
No, Warp 5 was just what they could do at the time - it was a way of making the tech less advanced than in TOS.

Warp factors were explicitly rescaled between TOS and TNG to give an actual physical limit.
  #74  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:23 PM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamino Neko View Post
No, Warp 5 was just what they could do at the time - it was a way of making the tech less advanced than in TOS.
Nope. There was a warp 2 barrier they were afraid to break:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...k:_Enterprise)
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."

Last edited by terentii; 03-22-2020 at 07:26 PM.
  #75  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:40 PM
Kamino Neko's Avatar
Kamino Neko is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alternate 230
Posts: 15,600
That's explicitly pointing to a technological, not theoretical limit.
  #76  
Old 03-22-2020, 08:00 PM
Just Asking Questions is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
Nope. There was a warp 2 barrier they were afraid to break:
And how many episodes before they broke it?
  #77  
Old 03-22-2020, 10:43 PM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
And how many episodes before they broke it?
Most everything in that episode was a flashback, so it must have been before the series even went on the air.
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."
  #78  
Old 03-23-2020, 01:16 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 221B Baker St.
Posts: 88,906
Yes, the Enterprise, NX-01, and her sister ships were the first Earth ships designed to be able to routinely go as fast as Warp 5, IIRC.
  #79  
Old 03-23-2020, 05:51 PM
Icerigger's Avatar
Icerigger is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 3,436
A chart of warp speeds in the TNG era.

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/echin/warpchart.html
  #80  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:24 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
Yes, the Enterprise, NX-01, and her sister ships were the first Earth ships designed to be able to routinely go as fast as Warp 5, IIRC.
How far could you go at warp 5?
  #81  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:39 PM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
Yes, the Enterprise, NX-01, and her sister ships were the first Earth ships designed to be able to routinely go as fast as Warp 5, IIRC.
Yes, but test flights were required to prove they could go beyond warp 2.
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."
  #82  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:21 PM
dogbutler's Avatar
dogbutler is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Raleigh N.C.
Posts: 13,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senegoid View Post
Some of their episodes could have been a LOT more interesting if they had used an Infinite Improbability Drive instead.
Can't. Captain Picard keeps drinking the Brownian Motion producer.
__________________
I used to be clueless, but I turned that around 360 degrees. -Ratbert
dogbutler-Not an ax murderer!
I hang out with the Cool kids
  #83  
Old 03-23-2020, 11:11 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 221B Baker St.
Posts: 88,906
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
How far could you go at warp 5?
As far as the plot demanded: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki...)#Achievements
  #84  
Old 03-23-2020, 11:21 PM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
How far could you go at warp 5?
You could make the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs.
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."
  #85  
Old 03-23-2020, 11:35 PM
cochrane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Nekkid Pueblo
Posts: 23,058
Never mind. Joke that fell flat.

Last edited by cochrane; 03-23-2020 at 11:37 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017