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  #151  
Old 03-24-2020, 01:52 PM
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I looked at the top 15 states with the most cases of Covid-19 and separated by 2016 Presidential vote.

Current fatality rates:

Red-land: 1.5%
Blue-land: 1.1%

Hard to predict where the primary hit will come. I expect worse care in red country. However, I would expect that the average child count per family is and has been lower in blue country, so the elderly are a larger slice of the pie there. Blue country is also more densely populated.
  #152  
Old 03-24-2020, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by raventhief View Post
From today's transcript:


"The whole concept is death is terrible!"


Is this the first time someone actually explained death to him?
No it isn't, but he is good at repression. Tomorrow he will have forgotten again.
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  #153  
Old 03-24-2020, 01:57 PM
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Then you don't need the New York Times, do you?
Only when someone offers something they think is pertinent that is only available on the New York Times, which is why we're having this conversation.
  #154  
Old 03-24-2020, 02:09 PM
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104 posts over 15 years and you waste it on this shit?
Putin is playing a very long game.
  #155  
Old 03-24-2020, 02:18 PM
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Trump's motives seem selfish and myopic. He's a bad guy and a bad POTUS. That said, for once there is a there there.

Yup, this coronavirus pandemic is a mean motherfucker. Probably tens of thousands will die, maybe a million, maybe more. We're all understandably focused on that. Meanwhile, we have a whole nother crisis brewing with the collapse of the economy in the cards. 20% unemployment? -15% GNP? Maybe worse than that?

Folks, the economic crisis is its own separate horseman of the Apocalypse. The there that's there in this discussion is that, yes, we really should find a way to balance our responses to both. We want to minimize risk to life but the quest to drive it all the way to 0% will have its own consequences.

What do we do when every bartender, waitress, Uber driver, retail employee and more is unemployed and out of money? It isn't just that they will become bad consumers that don't buy anything, driving everyone else out of business. They won't pay their rent and will face eviction. Or else we taxpayers will have to bail them out, which isn't out of the question mind you, but the kind of "socialism" where the state supports a huge non-working population really is going to fall apart eventually.

How much debt can we sustain? $25T? $30T $40T At some point we quit having public services. Infrastructure gets worse. Social Security gets cancelled. Obamacare and Medicare end, and then the pubbies win- a government that exists mostly to extract money from the masses to pay interest on loans made by the wealthy, a society without employment OR public services where those in need are on there own and can just crawl away and die if their needs threaten to cost another dollar to the New Aristocracy.

The bottom line is that we don't have good options. I don't want to be reckless, but I also don't think we should automatically start throwing cabbage and rotten eggs at everybody who calls attention to the economic crisis. We are beset by TWO monsters. Focusing on only one will get us killed by the other. I don't promote recklessness, but I say we should at least engage the discussion on how to face both.
Okay, but trump is measuring the economy in terms of the stock market. Getting it to go back up doesn’t necessarily mean we’re not having massive job loss and evictions etc.
  #156  
Old 03-24-2020, 02:25 PM
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Trump is, of course, a moron. The stock market was overinflated with his expansion-time stimulus to impress his doltish followers. Now that has unwound, everyone is going to suffer financially if not get sick and/or die, and Trump will get voted out.

Still, we should not just ignore the threat to the economy. Soup kitchens and Hoovervilles might not work out very well in a country with $30T in debt during a deadly pandemic. All I'm saying is that we face two very real threats, not just one.
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  #157  
Old 03-24-2020, 02:32 PM
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A bunch of idiots here in Las Vegas have their own plan for economic relief: Class action lawsuit filed in Las Vegas blames China for COVID-19 outbreak

:facepalm:
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In a 23-page summary, the lawsuit accuses China of causing the coronavirus pandemic by sponsoring reckless experiments at a bio lab in Wuhan, China. The lawsuit was filed by Las Vegas attorneys led by Robert T. Eglet of Las Vegas. Lawyers are seeking a jury trial.
Quote:
The lawsuit assigns blame for the spread of the virus to the US by allowing travel from Nov. 17, 2019 to Feb. 2, 2020, and seeks compensation for the catastrophic damage it has done to US tourism and small businesses.

The lawsuit names the People’s Republic of China, the country’s National Health Commission, Ministry of Emergency Management, Ministry of Civil Affairs, and also the province of Hubei and the city of Wuhan.
Fucking idiots. They'll prolly rake in donations for the cause, tho; people are stupid as fuck.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 03-24-2020 at 02:33 PM.
  #158  
Old 03-24-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Try2B Comprehensive View Post
What do we do when every bartender, waitress, Uber driver, retail employee and more is unemployed and out of money? It isn't just that they will become bad consumers that don't buy anything, driving everyone else out of business. They won't pay their rent and will face eviction. Or else we taxpayers will have to bail them out, which isn't out of the question mind you, but the kind of "socialism" where the state supports a huge non-working population really is going to fall apart eventually.
First, you refer to all those people as if they are "other" when in fact they are your fellow Dopers and your fellow citizens.

Also, quite a few of us retail employees are not only still employed but working mandatory overtime.

In addition, all those formally employed people were, up until recently, taxpayers just like yourself and the rest of us. They did not become some mysterious Other that never paid taxes when they lost their jobs. What good is pay taxes if the government and society to which we pay them discards us like trash when we need help the most?

I point these things out to highlight how language betrays inner bias, and how words can shape how we view each other.

Someone who was an employed tax-paying citizen on Monday does not suddenly become a life-long leech when losing a job on Tuesday. Why shouldn't we bail out these ordinary citizens when our society is willing to bail out faceless corporations?
  #159  
Old 03-24-2020, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
A bunch of idiots here in Las Vegas have their own plan for economic relief: Class action lawsuit filed in Las Vegas blames China for COVID-19 outbreak
Quote:
In a 23-page summary, the lawsuit accuses China of causing the coronavirus pandemic by sponsoring reckless experiments at a bio lab in Wuhan, China. The lawsuit was filed by Las Vegas attorneys led by Robert T. Eglet of Las Vegas. Lawyers are seeking a jury trial.
IOW: ambulance-chaser finds a new target after a major source of clientele dries up.
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They'll prolly rake in donations for the cause, tho; people are stupid as fuck.
Mr. Eglet can't be all that hurting for cash.
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:46 PM
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The spirit of fear dominates our age.

Get a grip, people.
  #161  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:04 PM
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First, you refer to all those people as if they are "other" when in fact they are your fellow Dopers and your fellow citizens.

Also, quite a few of us retail employees are not only still employed but working mandatory overtime.

In addition, all those formally employed people were, up until recently, taxpayers just like yourself and the rest of us. They did not become some mysterious Other that never paid taxes when they lost their jobs. What good is pay taxes if the government and society to which we pay them discards us like trash when we need help the most?

I point these things out to highlight how language betrays inner bias, and how words can shape how we view each other.

Someone who was an employed tax-paying citizen on Monday does not suddenly become a life-long leech when losing a job on Tuesday. Why shouldn't we bail out these ordinary citizens when our society is willing to bail out faceless corporations?
Well I am not trying to 'other' anybody, I am a union laborer myself. I can't claim to have perfect knowledge or submit definitive lists of who will or won't be unemployed. Let's see, a bunch of lawyers, stock brokers, cosmetic surgeons and professional athletes may soon fail to make payments on their yachts, and suddenly their $50 million condos are only worth $25 million. Sound better? Not to me, to me the waitresses and Uber drivers are the far more sympathetic characters in this drama. They work hard, they're much appreciated, but they don't get as big a slice of the pie and they are hurt the most economically. If I may generalize a little.

While I have all of this free time during quarantine, maybe I should meditate on my biases. But also, without to committing to anything, can we at least ask what the cost of keeping unemployment below x% would cost? Can we just ask what it will cost to lock down the country for x months? Because as I understand it, flattening the curve does not mean getting rid of it and a large portion of the population will eventually get sick regardless.
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  #162  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:27 PM
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While I have all of this free time during quarantine, maybe I should meditate on my biases. But also, without to committing to anything, can we at least ask what the cost of keeping unemployment below x% would cost?
We aren't going to keep unemployment under Great Depression levels no matter what we do for the simple fact that our economy is connected to everyone else's and they've all hit the brakes, too. And some areas are going to take even longer to recover than we will.

We've got basically two extremes to consider, and to strike a balance between:

1) we can swing far in one direction and tell all those unemployed "sucks to be you, should have saved 5 years of living expenses" and let the chips fall where they may. In my opinion, this could easily lead to blood in the streets and heads on pikes because homeless starving people have little to lose and a lot of anger.

2) we can swing in the other direction and attempt to support everyone to the prior standard of living, which I very much doubt is possible even short term, much less sustainable.

OK, now that we have the two strawmen out of the way, let's discuss how to get through this.

It benefits no one to have massive numbers of homeless, hungry people. So in order to prevent that we're going to have to figure out some way to keep roofs over peoples head and food on their tables. That said, some people may discover that no, their job is NOT coming back and they'll have to downside their residence and they may become re-acquainted (or meet for the first time) tuna noodle casserole and other thrifty meals. Which is something that tens of millions endured during the Great Recession. Such people - which will number in the millions - will have to find new jobs that likely will not pay as well as their prior jobs. Which sucks but I find acceptable provided that such jobs will allow them to house, feed, and otherwise care for themselves and their families albeit at a much more modest level than before.

But during all these lockdowns and stay-at-home orders those people are, realistically, unlikely to get a new job. Yes, a very few places are hiring - grocery stores, for example - but those are low-level jobs of a temporary nature. They're a great stop-gap for those that can get them, but there aren't going to be enough of them for all the idle workers. We should absolutely encourage people to take those jobs if they are able to do so (keeping in mind there are a lot of people who, due to various risk factors, really shouldn't be face to face with large numbers of other people).

We have sent people home from their jobs for the public good. We are preventing them from resuming their jobs or looking for highly lucrative jobs for the common good. Seems only fair to me that there should be SOME form of support form the "common good", i.e. "the government" to support those people until such time as they can actually either go back to work or seek other employment, and that will also required on-going support for some years because not everyone will get a new job the day after the quarantines lift.

With the assumption that those who have higher income have more resources, the wealthier you are the less help you should get. I don't know if the numbers being floated - $1,000 or $1200 or $2000 or whatever for checks to Americans or American families - are adequate or not, or how many such payments would be necessary. I'm not even sure how much total that would be - keeping in mind that payments might go to "only" 40 or 50 million people or households. But we're not going to re-start this economy without time and an infusion of wealth. Which is going to have to come from the wealthy because that's where the money is. You've got rich old men declaring we may have to sacrifice actual lives for this economy - well, then they can damn well give up some mere money in return.

The point I'm making is that the economy isn't going to crash, it HAS crashed. Hard. Everywhere in the world. We are in the early days of the Great Depression II and there's nothing to be done to stop or prevent it because it has already happened. We can do nothing for those whose lives have been up-ended and see a return of Hoovervilles and starvation, or we can get started early on a New Deal II that, with the benefit of experience, can embrace some of the good features of the last one while avoiding some of the mistakes that were made back then.
  #163  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:37 PM
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Because as I understand it, flattening the curve does not mean getting rid of it and a large portion of the population will eventually get sick regardless.
Yes, I split my reply to deal with the two types of questions you were asking.

It is true that flattening the curve may not reduce the total number of sick people when this is all over. What it may reduce is the death toll from this.

If we let cases of covid spike "naturally" (meaning what would happen if we changed no behavior whatsoever) our healthcare systems WOULD collapse. Even WITH efforts to slow transmission e saw China come close to that despite the monumental effort of building hospitals in less than two weeks time. We have seen it happen in Italy. We are now seeing it happen in Spain. New Jersey is probably just days from the same. This is not debatable. And when hospitals run out of ventilators, when doctors and nurses run out of protective equipment, and hospitals run out of something as basic as beds death rates soar. And we lose the very medical personnel we need to get through this crisis.

The more we flatten the curve the greater the chances of avoiding it. Even if we can't avoid it, the more we flatten the curve the less carnage we have to deal with.

If you think the lockdowns and current medical shortages are terrible and disruptive, do you think having half the population of a city ill simultaneously while the hospitals are literally overflowing and the bodies are literally stacking up would be any LESS disruptive or costly?
  #164  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:46 PM
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The more we flatten the curve the greater the chances of avoiding it. Even if we can't avoid it, the more we flatten the curve the less carnage we have to deal with.

If you think the lockdowns and current medical shortages are terrible and disruptive, do you think having half the population of a city ill simultaneously while the hospitals are literally overflowing and the bodies are literally stacking up would be any LESS disruptive or costly?
No I don't. I believe things are about to get extremely bad in some places, and just the example of it will temper this talk of "Let's get back to work, like, yesterday!" But we've got two problems. The virus is deadly bad and I'm not suggesting anything reckless. I'm on quarantine myself right now. But if we go into a Depression, that will get bad as well, potentially creating a feedback loop into the pandemic.

I'd like to solve both problems if possible.
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  #165  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:59 PM
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The New York Times is relentless in it's pursuit of profit and thus many of us cannot read that.

ETA: But I'm gonna guess that, no, there's no real merit in it.
1. That the NYT survives as an independent source of actual real factual news is kind of a miracle and I am not going to diss their methods of staying afloat when thousands of papers have drowned. (Also I have a subscription)

2. They have suspended the paywall for all Corona news. That may apply to this op-ed, dunno.
  #166  
Old 03-24-2020, 04:04 PM
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No I don't. I believe things are about to get extremely bad in some places, and just the example of it will temper this talk of "Let's get back to work, like, yesterday!" But we've got two problems. The virus is deadly bad and I'm not suggesting anything reckless. I'm on quarantine myself right now. But if we go into a Depression, that will get bad as well, potentially creating a feedback loop into the pandemic.

I'd like to solve both problems if possible.
I think the typical argument is that the economic damage from maintaining a lockdown and the economic damage from the extra deaths and other consequences of ending a lockdown too early are equivalent enough that there’s no reason not to go all in on the former.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:31 PM
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The problem, T2BC, isn't that Trump is technically wrong. It's that it's an entirely useless obvious statement, showing he has no idea what to actually do.

Of course there is the possibility of a the cure being worse than the disease. Everyone who is working out what to do knows this. That's why there are all the models working out the best outcome.

The question is whether Trump is letting them run the show, finally not thinking he knows better than everyone else.
  #168  
Old 03-24-2020, 04:34 PM
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What do we do when every bartender, waitress, Uber driver, retail employee and more is unemployed and out of money? It isn't just that they will become bad consumers that don't buy anything, driving everyone else out of business. They won't pay their rent and will face eviction. Or else we taxpayers will have to bail them out, which isn't out of the question mind you, but the kind of "socialism" where the state supports a huge non-working population really is going to fall apart eventually.

How much debt can we sustain? $25T? $30T $40T...
Look, these are really good points. Obviously we cannot do what one poster in another thread we should and do literally ANYTHING to stop the virus, up to and including every single person hiding in a separate room until people starve to death. No sane person is seriously suggesting that we should literally stop all economic activity for a preposterously long amount of time past all the food running out, power and water shutting off, and other disasters and plagues killing everyone.

The point though is that it's really, really apparent that Trump and many of his Trumpist minions want things to return to "Normal" long before it's safe to do so, and if they have their way thousands will die for no good reason and the economy will probably suffer just as much anyway. They are doing this so their stock portfolios go back up and so Trump might have a better chance at re-election. Those are the only reasons.

I am a relative optimist when it comes to how long I think everyone should shut down for and I think a general return to normalcy by April 1 is fucking insane. Going back to normalcy three weeks too early will be much, much worse than three weeks too late; the USA will just end up back at square one in terms of pandemic, plus with vastly less economic confidence than would have otherwise been the case.

You're right; there are no good options, only degree of least damage. We are headed into a bad recessions and many people will die. Donald Trump and his flying monkeys want a VERY bad option for normal Americans so they can profit.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:49 PM
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You're right; there are no good options, only degree of least damage. We are headed into a bad recessions and many people will die. Donald Trump and his flying monkeys want a VERY bad option for normal Americans so they can profit.
The nutty thing is that they can't really profit. If tens of millions of humans die, taking down entire national medical systems in the process, where's the profit going to come from? Where are the consumers to buy the products? Where are the laborers to produce them? Where are the logistical workers to produce the final and intermediate products?

The coming depression will harm many people, no doubt, but if we avoid the maximum spike of infections, we'll have enough people to start fresh.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:56 PM
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The nutty thing is that they can't really profit. If tens of millions of humans die, taking down entire national medical systems in the process, where's the profit going to come from? Where are the consumers to buy the products? Where are the laborers to produce them? Where are the logistical workers to produce the final and intermediate products?
You're thinking long term, like you actually care about the country. These are Republicans; they want the Dow to go up so they can cash out and then they're fine in walled communities or fleeing the country.
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  #171  
Old 03-24-2020, 05:23 PM
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The point though is that it's really, really apparent that Trump and many of his Trumpist minions want things to return to "Normal" long before it's safe to do so, and if they have their way thousands will die for no good reason and the economy will probably suffer just as much anyway. They are doing this so their stock portfolios go back up and so Trump might have a better chance at re-election. Those are the only reasons.
It is a desperate idea. That it's all politically catastrophic for Trump & co is the silver lining. I think the topic of this thread falls under politics too. First it was "it will go away like a miracle." Then it was "we have things almost airtight." Now we're basically back to "it will go away" (after two weeks). I think they are breaking it to the conservative audience slowly.
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I am a relative optimist when it comes to how long I think everyone should shut down for and I think a general return to normalcy by April 1 is fucking insane. Going back to normalcy three weeks too early will be much, much worse than three weeks too late; the USA will just end up back at square one in terms of pandemic, plus with vastly less economic confidence than would have otherwise been the case.
Yeah well wait until March 31 when every news outlet is flooded with images of corpses, coffins and coughing and everyone will agree it is insane. Sadly, Trump's stupid antics have already made things worse and it is going to take the awareness of disaster before some people will clue in to reality. I honestly think some people will never clue in to reality, but it is possible to string 'em along for votes, and there's one demographic of the Trump camp.
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You're right; there are no good options, only degree of least damage. We are headed into a bad recessions and many people will die. Donald Trump and his flying monkeys want a VERY bad option for normal Americans so they can profit.
I love being right Except these days. I hope I am wrong that the intensification of the pandemic will make the idea behind Trump's little optics show baldly out of the question.

Quote:
The problem, T2BC, isn't that Trump is technically wrong. It's that it's an entirely useless obvious statement, showing he has no idea what to actually do.

Of course there is the possibility of a the cure being worse than the disease. Everyone who is working out what to do knows this. That's why there are all the models working out the best outcome.

The question is whether Trump is letting them run the show, finally not thinking he knows better than everyone else.
It's also shockingly ignorant coming from the POTUS. But we're used to Trump, we know he's pretty much always full of shit. He's always selling some fantabulous vision, and this time he's trying to sprinkle his gold dust on, "Everyone is going to lock themselves in their homes for two weeks, then we'll all come out and go back to work. Winning!" That's the best-case scenario from the POV of selfish bullshit. It's just trying to spin something that can't hardly be spun. Remember how people loved Reagan for his sunny optimism? It just makes Trump look like an asshole
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  #172  
Old 03-24-2020, 05:56 PM
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I hate Trump as much as anyone, and confess my ignorance as to epidemiology, statistics, and the economy. But is there any merit to the ideas set forth in this NYT oped?

He proposes that the 2 week general quarantine act as a rebooting of society, to be followed by more targeted measures aimed at the most vulnerable.

I admit that I may find this argument attractive because it jibes with my predisposition. And, as a general matter, I tend to favor targeted approaches over all-inclusive. I have not yet researched to see if the writer is a crank, or to otherwise support/refute his argument.
...there are no merits to his ideas. None at all.

Maybe, just maybe, if we were discussing this in January, and America had ramped up testing then, followed that up with rigorous tracing, shutting down of the borders, then maybe some of the ideas may have had some merit. Although I doubt it.

But it is much too late now to be doing anything else but a country-wide lockdown lead by the Federal government.

But you aren't even going to get that. America doesn't have a co-ordinated approach to Covid-19. Not from the top. Not even at the State level. Imagine three states, one on complete lockdown, one implementing the methods suggested by Dr Katz, and one doing absolutely nothing at all. How effective do you think that will likely to be?

But lets ignore the utter chaos of a decentralised response to Covid-19 for a minute. How long do you think it will take to get buy-in for Dr Katz's suggestions and how long do you think it will take to implement them? I can't imagine anyone with any expertise with epidemiology, with pandemics, with what has worked and what hasn't worked in slowing the spread of Covid-19 would support this idea. Dr Katz's suggestion does nothing to stop community transmission. Absolutely nothing. And in America right now community transmission is probably rampant. And by "going back to work" community transmission is guaranteed to increase.

So now you will have a public debate between (self-confessed) ignorant people like you who find this "argument attractive merely because of your disposition" and with medical experts who know what the fuck they are talking about. And we wouldn't be having this debate at the federal level. It would be happening at the state level, as it is at the moment. There are crazy people out there advocating and fighting for this including at the highest levels of government.

How long do you think it would take to come to an agreement? Lets say that Dr Katz and co win the debate, and we begin to implement his final solution. How long will it take to sort out "who is vulnerable" and "who isn't?" A week? Two weeks?

The reality is that you aren't going to know the effectiveness of any solution until 2-3 weeks after it is implemented. So if we spend the next three weeks arguing about this, then we spend two weeks implementing it, it won't be until about a month after that that you will see if Katz's plan is working. Two months. How many deaths are you willing to tolerate based on a plan from a guy who has zero expertise in this field?

This is where you are now. The shit has already hit the fan. You've run out of time. The iceberg has already hit the Titanic, the boat is sinking and people are manning the lifeboats.

TLDR: America is fucked. New Zealand goes into full lockdown today. The borders are closed. We've currently had zero deaths from Covid-19. (Although we have no illusions that it will stay that way.) If you need to get tested you get tested. If you get it: then you don't have to pay to get treated. Comprehensive tracing. I'm self employed and I've lost all of my bookings for the next couple of months. I've lost thousands of dollars of work. Two invoices from last month didn't pay their bill. And I'm good with that. Because the lives of my friends and my family and the people of the land is more important than money. Almost everybody is on board down here. The message from our Prime Minister is one that is resonating throughout the country: "Be Kind." It will be a very stressful 3-6 months ahead, maybe even longer. But we will get through this together.

I don't know how America will get through this. I really don't. You are taking none of the steps to get this under control. A large proportion of the population appear to be part of a "death cult." The Federal government don't give a fuck. And people like you are entertaining the most ridiculous of ideas. Millions of Americans are about to die. And you appear to be okay with that. I just don't get it.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:58 PM
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No I don't. I believe things are about to get extremely bad in some places, and just the example of it will temper this talk of "Let's get back to work, like, yesterday!" But we've got two problems. The virus is deadly bad and I'm not suggesting anything reckless. I'm on quarantine myself right now. But if we go into a Depression, that will get bad as well, potentially creating a feedback loop into the pandemic.

I'd like to solve both problems if possible.
Sure, I think we all would.

I think it is important to recognize that this is not the same problem in all parts of the US. NYC is our most densely populated city, it is no surprise that it is having so much trouble because a densely populated city is paradise to a virus like covid. On the other hand, Wyoming as a whole is much less densely populated. It still needs to take strong precautions in its population centers but the rural/wilderness areas do not need the same level of action because the sparse population and distances already create a natural social distancing.

We can, and should vary our responses based on 1) data and 2) the local situation. Much as in China, where Wuhan and Hubei had the most stringent measures applied but other areas of China did not need that same level of lockdown, areas less affected could be restored to more normal levels of activity. We may not be able to do that for several weeks, though.
  #174  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:03 PM
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You're thinking long term, like you actually care about the country. These are Republicans; they want the Dow to go up so they can cash out and then they're fine in walled communities or fleeing the country.
Well... fleeing the country isn't of much use during a global pandemic unless your destination is, say, Antarctica. In which case they'll probably bring the disease with them and congratulations, now all the continents are infected.
  #175  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:06 PM
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no it isn't, but he is good at repression.

iswydt.
  #176  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:08 PM
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Fuck me but you’re a vile and repugnant piece of shit. Tedious to boot, which may even be the bigger sin. This is by no means the first time you’ve called for the death, suffering or summary execution of large swathes of people with whom you disagree. I’d call you a fascist, but by now that bunch has at least learned to limit their expressing their sociopathic tendencies for when they’re in their own Facebook groups. You are EXACTLY like the people you get worked up about, except actually worse than a good portion of them. You are wasting every breath of air you draw. You have no redeeming qualities: I’m pretty sure that in some bizarro world where you were in charge not even the trains would run on time. You, in fact, embody every bit as much as what is wrong with America as anyone you rant about.
No, fuck you.

I live in a fact-based world, and it's the absence of one that kills people. I don't feel bad for wanting people to suffer the consequences of their blind devotion to a fucking racist cult. Why should the rest of us suffer for their bullshit.
  #177  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:09 PM
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I don't know how America will get through this. I really don't. You are taking none of the steps to get this under control. A large proportion of the population appear to be part of a "death cult." The Federal government don't give a fuck. And people like you are entertaining the most ridiculous of ideas. Millions of Americans are about to die. And you appear to be okay with that. I just don't get it.
By and large the people in favor of the useless tactics and returning to normal right now are convinced that they themselves won't get the virus and/or won't get badly sick from it.
  #178  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:09 PM
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Nobody gives a fuck what you think or say.
Apparently you do.
  #179  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:33 PM
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Well... fleeing the country isn't of much use during a global pandemic unless your destination is, say, Antarctica. In which case they'll probably bring the disease with them and congratulations, now all the continents are infected.
I swear to Og, these people have never read "Masque of the Red Death" by Poe, have they? Or "One Night of the Year" by Tanith Lee, either.
  #180  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:38 PM
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I swear to Og, these people have never read "Masque of the Red Death" by Poe, have they? Or "One Night of the Year" by Tanith Lee, either.
FTFY:

Quote:
I swear to Og, these people have never read
  #181  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:34 PM
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...
TLDR: America is fucked. New Zealand goes into full lockdown today. The borders are closed. We've currently had zero deaths from Covid-19. (Although we have no illusions that it will stay that way.) If you need to get tested you get tested. If you get it: then you don't have to pay to get treated. Comprehensive tracing. I'm self employed and I've lost all of my bookings for the next couple of months. I've lost thousands of dollars of work. Two invoices from last month didn't pay their bill. And I'm good with that. Because the lives of my friends and my family and the people of the land is more important than money. Almost everybody is on board down here. The message from our Prime Minister is one that is resonating throughout the country: "Be Kind." It will be a very stressful 3-6 months ahead, maybe even longer. But we will get through this together.

I don't know how America will get through this. I really don't. You are taking none of the steps to get this under control. A large proportion of the population appear to be part of a "death cult." The Federal government don't give a fuck. And people like you are entertaining the most ridiculous of ideas. Millions of Americans are about to die. And you appear to be okay with that. I just don't get it.
Leadership.

We don't got it.
  #182  
Old 03-24-2020, 08:16 PM
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I don't know how America will get through this. I really don't. You are taking none of the steps to get this under control.
This is clearly just misinformed posting; are you not aware of the large amounts of toilet paper that people have been purchasing?

America is prepared (for poop)!

  #183  
Old 03-24-2020, 08:49 PM
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Yeah well wait until March 31 when every news outlet is flooded with images of corpses, coffins and coughing and everyone will agree it is insane.
Trumpists have been ignoring the plain facts for over three years and I cannot imagine why they'd stop now. In fact, they have all the more reason to.
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  #184  
Old 03-24-2020, 09:39 PM
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I think Trump's proposal is going to age like a glass of warm milk in the Sahara sun. I am willing to wait and see, but I seriously doubt things will have improved enough by April 1 for there to be a consensus for "going back to normal." It is just Trump bullshit IMHO, not to be taken seriously. Kind of like his statements on every other issue.
  #185  
Old 03-24-2020, 09:50 PM
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Yeah well wait until March 31 when every news outlet is flooded with images of corpses, coffins and coughing and everyone will agree it is insane.
Every outlet except Fox News, of course. All those other outlets will just be fake news out to take down the president.
  #186  
Old 03-24-2020, 09:53 PM
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Yeah well wait until March 31 when every news outlet is flooded with images of corpses, coffins and coughing and everyone will agree it is insane.
Just saw footage in Italy of a hockey rink being used as a morgue. If President Piltdown sees this and handwaves it away in whatever delusional, pig-ignorant manner that suits him at that moment, there is no way in fucking hell that shithead is prepared for the economic pain that's in store for him. The pandemic is becoming an incremental, daily shit-kicking on that asshole, and that shit-kicking will be fascinating (oh and scary as shit) to see how it manifests itself on the increasingly rally-less, golf-less scum-fuck.
I can't even start to imagine how unglued he'd get under Day One of a national Shelter in Place enactment. Can't see him going one more week from now without tweeting that Mara-lago just has to re-open.

Eeeeeew - Renegade Rallies?

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I think Trump's proposal is going to age like a glass of warm milk in the Sahara sun.
Indeed. I'd even remove the apostrophe, 's' and 'proposal'.

Last edited by Guest-starring: Id!; 03-24-2020 at 09:56 PM.
  #187  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:01 PM
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Just saw footage in Italy of a hockey rink being used as a morgue. {...}
I have it on good authority, posters on this board, that all of them were just old people that were going to die in a year or two anyway.

CMC fnord!
  #188  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:11 PM
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And also probably all useless Internazionale fans.
  #189  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:41 PM
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I have it on good authority, posters on this board, that all of them were just old people that were going to die in a year or two anyway.

CMC fnord!
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And also probably all useless Internazionale fans.
They sacrificed themselves.
  #190  
Old 03-24-2020, 11:07 PM
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I don't know how America will get through this. I really don't. You are taking none of the steps to get this under control. A large proportion of the population appear to be part of a "death cult."
Check this shit out:

Quote:
The poster boy of such stupidity is currently Dan Patrick, Texas’ Republican lieutenant governor, who told Tucker Carlson on Monday night that he and America’s other grandparents would be willing to risk their own lives if it meant America getting “back to work” before the pandemic was contained adequately. “Those of us who are 70-plus, we’ll take care of ourselves. But don’t sacrifice the country,” Patrick intoned, heroically. Balking at “stay-at-home” and shelter-in-place directives, Patrick insisted that he was willing to personally die so the U.S. economy could thrive for his grandchildren: “No one reached out to me and said, ‘As a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that America loves for its children and grandchildren?’ And if that is the exchange, I’m all in.” He concluded with possibly the stupidest line of the evening: “As the president said, the mortality rate is so low. Do we have to shut down the country?”
The god is free-market capitalism, and Trump merely its latest avatar.
  #191  
Old 03-24-2020, 11:31 PM
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Check this shit out:



The god is free-market capitalism, and Trump merely its latest avatar.
A really mischievous and well thought out plan: let all of us idiots and most of our voters keel over, so that the apparent idiocy will soon be outvoted! Genius!
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  #192  
Old 03-25-2020, 01:18 AM
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Just heard today that my hometown in southwest Virginia has it's first case. A university student who went to spring break in Florida. Obviously there will be more cases. Until now, there has been no shutdowns, just the mayor asking people to have groups no larger than 10. When there are more people infected, which is bound to happen, I am sure this will change. I sure as hell hope so because my parents, in their 70s, live there. More people will get infected than otherwise would have if they had shutdown earlier, and some may die, but if they do shut down hopefully it can be contained. But that won't happen by time Easter, it will not be under control. I just can't imagine they are going to suddenly end the shut down I hope is coming becase Trump says it is OK.

This is one example of one small town but it will happen all over the country. I hope. This is what gives me hope when I read posts such as Banquet Bears' and many others.
  #193  
Old 03-25-2020, 02:01 AM
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Apparently CFSG thinks that if the economy doesn't "open up" soon, the number of people who kill themselves (presumably because they're losing money) will be greater than the number who will die from covid if it is opened up and the CDC social isolation guidelines rescinded.

I hope I didn't hear that correctly, but I have a sinking feeling that I did. The only rationale I can think of is his gut feeling that life without a pile of money isn't worth living.
  #194  
Old 03-25-2020, 05:26 AM
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The god is free-market capitalism, and Trump merely its latest avatar.
...so, check this shit out.

NZ goes into lockdown in a few hours. Earlier today I ventured out to pick up my medicine from the pharmacy. Medicine isn't free, its $5 per item (to a maximum, then its free) and I had to pick up 8 items to see me through the next few months.

It was a bit chaotic when I got to the pharmacy: but that's to be expected considering that they only had a couple of days to completely invent a new way of doing things. We weren't allowed in the pharmacy, but instead the owner of the pharmacy, in gloves, facemasks and clipboard was at the head of the queue while the rest of us arranged ourselves in a not-very-straight-line and self-managed our social distancing.

I had called ahead so they had my medicine ready for me. I asked "how do I pay?" And the person who had just handed me the medicine said "Do it online. But only if you can."

I have to admit that I went back to my car and had a little cry. The government response here, the way the people of Aotearoa have responded, has been overwhelming. Its been professional, well organised, and kind. This is Dr Siouxsie Wiles, who has been one of the scientists at the forefront of the communicating the realities of Covid-19 to many of us here, offering to "call your parents" to tell them to stay home. This is our Prime Minister, doing a Facebook Live, from her home, for no other reason than to answer a few questions and to make us all feel a bit better. If you have a moment take the chance to have a listen. The openness and clarity of the information. Listening to questions and knowing the answers, no waffle, just clear, open, friendly messaging from the person who has spent the last three weeks getting the New Zealand ready for what will be the most challenging few months in our nations short history.

If you ever do get rid of Trump, and when you get beyond the absurdity of the current election cycle, this is the sort of leadership you need to be looking for. With the rest of the world turning into a dystopian nightmare I can't tell you how relieved I am to be living where I am right now.
  #195  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:07 AM
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You're thinking long term, like you actually care about the country. These are Republicans; they want the Dow to go up so they can cash out and then they're fine in walled communities or fleeing the country.
I get that, but... don't they understand that wage slavery and debt peonage only work as long as the peons are alive?

Eh, may as well forget it. Our leaders are D-students who bought their way into elite universities, bluffed their way through by copying other people's term papers, and expect to keep failing up in that same manner.
  #196  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:35 AM
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That said, for once there is a there there.
No, there isn't - if you believe that then you've missed the lesson, and you don't see the warning.

The lesson is this: pay attention to the facts, to the science, to the scientists. Don't treat experts like they're overpaid bureaucratic idiots who have no value. Don't disband the team that was put into place as a response to a previous deadly outbreak for the express purpose of stopping an outbreak just like this one. That's the lesson.

But there's also a warning: if you foolishly go on and pretend that it's business as usual, the crisis will eventually explode into something even worse than what we're already dealing with. And worse than that, people will lose all faith in the government's ability to manage a crisis. People will stay home anyway. People will come to work, only to get sick and up going to the ICU by the thousands, only this time it won't be just in New York City but also in cities and towns across the Heartland.

That's why I say, as tasteless as it sounds to say it, I think some people need a taste of their own fucking medicine. You want to deny science? You want to laugh because you think you're somewhere in Kansas and it's just a blue state, big city, Chinese, Asian disease...well, don't expect any tears of sympathy from me when I see convoys of trucks carrying out coffins in their cities.

And the economy will still be shit and we'll still borrowing trillions and trillions of dollars against the social security and medicare for people who are now in their 50s and late 40s. Something else for us Gen-Xers and late Boomers to chew on, too.
  #197  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:51 AM
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Thanks for that anecdote from En-Zed, BanquetBear.
  #198  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:06 AM
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Check this shit out:



The god is free-market capitalism, and Trump merely its latest avatar.
Their God isn't even "free market" capitalism; it's free market slavery and peonage for the labor class, but for them it's gangster capitalism.

Republicans don't really value capitalism in the Adam Smith "Wealth of Nations" sense. It's snake oil capitalism. It's Texas Hold 'em capitalism. Their attitude is simple: life is a game. You play to win. And to win, somebody else probably has to lose. So be it.

Think about how Donald Trump got rich. He got rich in part by abusing the tax code. But mostly he got rich by lying and scamming others: banks, contractors, or investors who got attracted to his name on a hotel or casino.

Think about Martin Shkreli of "Pharma Bro" fame. How did he get rich? By cornering the market on drugs that people desperately need in order to live.

How did Republican (and apparently a few no less traitorous scum "democrats") apparently get a little richer? By dumping stock while lying to the public about the growing dangers of a deadly outbreak.

Republicans have an entirely different definition of "capitalism."

Most of us believe that water and breathable air are vital resources that we all need to survive, and you know, help markets function. The republican view is that these are products to be capitalized, and that God absolves them of whatever evil they decide to engage in to maximize their profit.

If you were in the desert and they were the only vendor of water for the next 100 miles, they'd jack up the price and take everything in your wallet. And if the guy standing next to you offered more, you'd be left to drop to the ground and bake your brain in the desert sun.
  #199  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:43 AM
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I have to admit that I went back to my car and had a little cry. The government response here, the way the people of Aotearoa have responded, has been overwhelming. Its been professional, well organised, and kind. This is Dr Siouxsie Wiles, who has been one of the scientists at the forefront of the communicating the realities of Covid-19 to many of us here, offering to "call your parents" to tell them to stay home. This is our Prime Minister, doing a Facebook Live, from her home, for no other reason than to answer a few questions and to make us all feel a bit better. If you have a moment take the chance to have a listen. The openness and clarity of the information. Listening to questions and knowing the answers, no waffle, just clear, open, friendly messaging from the person who has spent the last three weeks getting the New Zealand ready for what will be the most challenging few months in our nations short history.
It's cool that one of your nation's best science communicators is a pink-haired Lego-lover who's renamed herself after a Goth icon

And yeah, leadership matters so much. I was so impressed by Angela Merkel's address to Germany. And locally, I'm so glad we have Cyril Ramaphosa as President now, and not the corrupt buffoon who preceded him. Shit might actually end up getting done - we go on 21-day nationwide lockdown tomorrow.
  #200  
Old 03-25-2020, 08:54 AM
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Any economy that requires millions of people to die or live shorter, more miserable lives is an economy that doesn't deserve saving.
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