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  #251  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:27 AM
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It always bothers me when folks try to justify abortions with saving the life of the mother or aborting because of rape. Fuck that. It's her body and she does not want it to be used at that time for growing a fetus. Period. That should be all the explanation anyone needs.

So yes, it is a necessary medical procedure that should be performed as soon as possible.
If abortion was always considered a necessary medical procedure then the human race would die out when no more births occur. :P

It should be uncontroversial that abortion is necessary when the motherís life is at risk. Anyone but the most hardcore anti-abortion zealot should accept that.

Whether or not itís necessary because a woman does not want to be pregnant is trickier. I understand the belief that if a woman doesnít want to be pregnant she should be allowed to terminate the pregnancy. I have two daughters and I remember what that was like for their mothers. Itís a massive life-changing experience to carry a child and give birth and a woman should not have to go through that involuntarily.

But from a medical perspective, giving birth to a child is a natural process, so an abortion from that angle does not seem like a medical ďnecessityĒ. Not in most cases. So to me it depends on how you are defining it.
  #252  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:53 AM
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But from a medical perspective, giving birth to a child is a natural process, so an abortion from that angle does not seem like a medical “necessity”. Not in most cases. So to me it depends on how you are defining it.
But we intervene to prevent many other natural processes from irrevocably altering a person's life, right?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 03-26-2020 at 10:54 AM.
  #253  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:57 AM
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Check out this ad about the number of Corona Virus cases over time and Trumps response to it. This one needs to be aired constantly!
What's truly scary about it is it clearly shows the exponential rise of cases. That Trump is even remotely thinking we're going back to work in 2 weeks is a fools dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkMwvmJLnc0
  #254  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:58 AM
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Does anyone know if Fox News is still telling their core demographic of people over 65 that they should sacrifice themselves so that the kids can go out to bars and get drunk again?

How is this going over with the older generation? Are they happy to die in order to keep the DOW above water?
  #255  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:59 AM
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And lest we forget, Best Buys, sporting goods stores, and Hobby Lobbys are apparently essential businesses. Maybe they have a point, but if so, it's not exactly a stretch to say legal abortions are as necessary as a medical procedure, if not more so, than those as essential public businesses.

The accusation that some officials are taking advantage of the situation is not entirely unfounded.
  #256  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:00 AM
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https://news.yahoo.com/georgia-healt...065819012.html


Only the elderly and those with underlying conditions are at risk. It is known! Trump wants the younger, healthy people to start working again, because you have to be over 60 or already suffering from an underlying condition to get a bad case of the virus. Maybe that WAS true, I don't think it is any more. Hospitals and families are reluctant to discuss deaths and hospitalizations, due to privacy laws and social stigma I imagine, but more and more I'm hearing of younger people being increasingly more ill and requiring medical intervention and even dying. Thinking that we can lock up senior citizens and have the rest of the country carry on may be more wrong than Trump knows.
Wait until it's not just one 30-something who goes to the ER deprived of oxygen but scores of them at the same time. They'll end up in waiting rooms with all of the other 40, 50, 60, and 70-somethings. I don't care how old you are: struggle to breathe long enough, and you die.
  #257  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:03 AM
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The problem is at the top


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ut-to-unleash/
  #258  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Frazzled View Post
Check out this ad about the number of Corona Virus cases over time and Trumps response to it. This one needs to be aired constantly!
What's truly scary about it is it clearly shows the exponential rise of cases. That Trump is even remotely thinking we're going back to work in 2 weeks is a fools dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkMwvmJLnc0

What bigger fool?!
  #259  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:40 AM
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But we intervene to prevent many other natural processes from irrevocably altering a person's life, right?
Do we? Do you have an example of an equivalent procedure done as a medical necessity? I donít know of an example, Iím legitimately curious what you have in mind.
  #260  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:15 PM
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I looked at the top 15 states with the most cases of Covid-19 and separated by 2016 Presidential vote.

Current fatality rates:

Red-land: 1.5%
Blue-land: 1.1%

Hard to predict where the primary hit will come. I expect worse care in red country. However, I would expect that the average child count per family is and has been lower in blue country, so the elderly are a larger slice of the pie there. Blue country is also more densely populated.
I did a deeper, county-by-county analysis.

Current fatality rate:

Red-land: 1.37%
Blue-land: 1.27%
  #261  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:27 PM
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Do we? Do you have an example of an equivalent procedure done as a medical necessity? I donít know of an example, Iím legitimately curious what you have in mind.
Cancer is a natural process. Diseases are natural processes. Even aging, which causes many maladies, is a natural process. We fight them all.

I don't think labeling pregnancy as a natural process makes it any less a thing that some people may find undesirable.
  #262  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:36 PM
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Do we? Do you have an example of an equivalent procedure done as a medical necessity? I donít know of an example, Iím legitimately curious what you have in mind.
Well, it is a natural process that has a fair chance of killing the person experiencing it, so that is one argument for allowing unrestricted terminations.
  #263  
Old 03-26-2020, 02:40 PM
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Cancer is a natural process. Diseases are natural processes. Even aging, which causes many maladies, is a natural process. We fight them all.

I don't think labeling pregnancy as a natural process makes it any less a thing that some people may find undesirable.


Those are your examples? I thought you were serious, never mind.
  #264  
Old 03-26-2020, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Frazzled View Post
Check out this ad about the number of Corona Virus cases over time and Trumps response to it. This one needs to be aired constantly!
What's truly scary about it is it clearly shows the exponential rise of cases. That Trump is even remotely thinking we're going back to work in 2 weeks is a fools dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkMwvmJLnc0
Trump camp threatens local TV stations over Democratic ad
Quote:
President Donald Trumpís reelection campaign is threatening legal action against local TV stations in Florida, Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin if they donít pull a Democratic anti-Trump commercial that uses clips of the president talking about the coronavirus outbreak. The campaign says the ad is false.

Priorities USA Action Fund, the Democratic super PAC that created the 30-second spot and supported Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, responded by soliciting financial contributions to keep the ad on the airwaves.

Trumpís campaign said the commercial contains the ďfalse assertionĒ that Trump called the coronavirus a ďhoax.Ē

The ad strings together audio of recent comments by Trump in which he attempts to minimize the seriousness of the coronavirus outbreak, including a snippet in which he says ďthis is their new hoax.Ē

Trumpís campaign said Wednesday that it had delivered ďcease and desistĒ letters to the stations demanding that they pull the ad or face legal action.
Quote:
Guy Cecil, chairman of Priorities USA, tweeted Wednesday that Trump wants to block the ad ďbecause he doesnít want Americans to know the truth.Ē He included a link for donations to pay to keep the ad on the air.
Cite.
  #265  
Old 03-26-2020, 02:58 PM
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Those are your examples? I thought you were serious, never mind.
That's okay; I thought you were reasonable but I guess we're both wrong about each other.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 03-26-2020 at 03:01 PM.
  #266  
Old 03-26-2020, 03:14 PM
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Except wait: I was serious. And you responded with an ad hominem attack. I assume that's your tacit admission that you've got nothin' and concede the argument.

Thanks for making that so easy.
  #267  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:30 PM
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But we intervene to prevent many other natural processes from irrevocably altering a person's life, right?
A fucking heart attack is a natural process.
  #268  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:04 PM
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Aye; it is.
  #269  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:10 PM
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Yep.

Time to make it go viral on social media. I've already started - anyone else want to join me?
  #270  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:42 PM
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Except wait: I was serious. And you responded with an ad hominem attack. I assume that's your tacit admission that you've got nothin' and concede the argument.

Thanks for making that so easy.
I asked for a procedure equivalent to abortion and you go off on stupid shit about fighting aging and other dumbass stuff. So if you were being serious and not flippant, youíre a moron. How is that for ad hominem?

Again, seriously, giving birth is something people do all the damn time, itís not a medical ailment that needs to be cured unless the situation carries unusual risks that warrant termination of the pregnancy. What procedure do people perform as an essential medical practice thatís equivalent to an abortion?

Iím not a pro-lifer trying for a gotcha here. And if there is an argument that can make abortion equivalent to other accepted essential medical procedures, great, thatís an argument that can shut down those trying to inhibit a womanís choice. I havenít seen a serious argument, just people being cute about it. I assume because youíve ďgot nothiníĒ, as you said. Which is a shame, I honestly hoped you had one.
  #271  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:48 PM
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Yep.

Time to make it go viral on social media. I've already started - anyone else want to join me?
I put the YouTube link on my Facebook page earlier today, urging readers to pass it on. I made an exception to my not participating in chain shares for this.

Screen grabs of the lawsuit document have been up for nearly 24 hours.
  #272  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:58 PM
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I asked for a procedure equivalent to abortion and you go off on stupid shit about fighting aging and other dumbass stuff. So if you were being serious and not flippant, youíre a moron. How is that for ad hominem?

Again, seriously, giving birth is something people do all the damn time, itís not a medical ailment that needs to be cured unless the situation carries unusual risks that warrant termination of the pregnancy. What procedure do people perform as an essential medical practice thatís equivalent to an abortion?

Iím not a pro-lifer trying for a gotcha here. And if there is an argument that can make abortion equivalent to other accepted essential medical procedures, great, thatís an argument that can shut down those trying to inhibit a womanís choice. I havenít seen a serious argument, just people being cute about it. I assume because youíve ďgot nothiníĒ, as you said. Which is a shame, I honestly hoped you had one.
Why isn't a pregnancy a medical ailment? If some disease had the exact same physiological effects of pregnancy, I'd fucking want the cure.
  #273  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:10 PM
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"I'd want the fucking cure."

FTFY
  #274  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:18 PM
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"I'd want the fucking cure."

FTFY
I wanted to say, "take your fucking upvote", but there are no upvotes here... so instead, I'll just type this sentence.
  #275  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:58 PM
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"I'd want the fucking cure."

FTFY
Heh.
  #276  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:11 PM
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nm

Last edited by squeegee; 03-26-2020 at 11:12 PM.
  #277  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:03 PM
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You personally don't believe that abortion is basic health care? You require proof?
The question was "Is abortion essential health care?" Thanks for changing the subject though.

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Originally Posted by Guest-starring: Id! View Post
(wish I got back sooner so this wouldn't look like a pile on, but he was addressing me, anyway) It's not too uncommon for life-theatening complications to occur during pregnancy, that yeah, might require an abortion.
Yes, it might.

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You'd rather that women die from problem pregnancies because abortions have been deemed non-essential? How about rape victims who got pregnant and can't have abortions because it's non-essential?
No, I'd rather not that. Elective abortions are not essential

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Christ, just don't fucking respond.

manson's not a troll, but he's just not qualified to talk about this issue and let's just accept his position as an uninformed one and move on.
That's a great attitude. Can I use that on all your "The sky is falling" posts that you make?

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Ah, so the git simply prefers women not exist in the first place except as a place to park his dick.
This seems harsh, and based on nothing other than I disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
There are circumstances where continued pregnancy can kill the mother. In such cases, yes, abortions are essential health care. The fact that such circumstances are uncommon do not make them any less real.
Yes such circumstance are real. Doesn't make elective abortions "essential" health care. Unless you are using a different definition of "essential"

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Men are in no position to talk about abortion - full stop.

If a man wants to be part of a ground-breaking lab experiment that tries to get him pregnant and carry a child to term via a natural birth, then maybe at that time he can talk about abortion.

Until then, I really don't give a shit what someone with a penis has to say on the subject.
This attitude seems quite sexist to me.
  #278  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:24 PM
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This attitude seems quite sexist to me.
Does it also seem sexist to you that you don't have an uterus?
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  #279  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:28 PM
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Yes, when it comes to issues involving women there's no point in engaging.
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Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
Ah, so the git simply prefers women not exist in the first place except as a place to park his dick.
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
This seems harsh...
Your lack of disagreement has been noted.

Last edited by Miller; 03-28-2020 at 04:38 PM.
  #280  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:36 PM
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My apologies to Chingon. Multi-quote messed up and it's too late for me to fix.
  #281  
Old 03-27-2020, 10:05 PM
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Does it also seem sexist to you that you don't have an uterus?
No, it doesn't.
  #282  
Old 03-28-2020, 01:27 AM
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I asked for a procedure equivalent to abortion and you go off on stupid shit about fighting aging and other dumbass stuff. So if you were being serious and not flippant, youíre a moron. How is that for ad hominem?

Again, seriously, giving birth is something people do all the damn time, itís not a medical ailment that needs to be cured unless the situation carries unusual risks that warrant termination of the pregnancy. What procedure do people perform as an essential medical practice thatís equivalent to an abortion?

Iím not a pro-lifer trying for a gotcha here. And if there is an argument that can make abortion equivalent to other accepted essential medical procedures, great, thatís an argument that can shut down those trying to inhibit a womanís choice. I havenít seen a serious argument, just people being cute about it. I assume because youíve ďgot nothiníĒ, as you said. Which is a shame, I honestly hoped you had one.
Will you accept broken bones as an example? Most fractures are not life threatening. If you don't have medical treatment for a fracture you might lose the functionality of an arm, walk with a limp, or have pain for the rest of your life, but you'll live. For most of human existence we just let the body repair itself as well as it could, and lived with the consequences. Now we'll preform surgery and and install pins and such just to avoid mild discomfort. Would you argue that we should deem fractures that aren't life threatening not medically essential?

Carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth have physiological effects on the body. Many of the effects are minor, but some can be major, which can also be said for fractures. If there were a procedure for just avoiding breaking the bone in the first place, I think it would be deemed medically essential.

Also, discussions like these often ignore that mental health is often as, if not more, important than the physical medical interventions. If abortion isn't deemed medically essential, you are conceding that forcing women to give birth has a low enough bar for lasting effects as to be unfortunate, but not very important. Forcing a woman to bring a child into this world that she doesn't want will have mental health effects that last the rest of her life. That seems to me to be an essential medical concern.
  #283  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:41 AM
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(wish I got back sooner so this wouldn't look like a pile on, but he was addressing me, anyway) It's not too uncommon for life-theatening complications to occur during pregnancy, that yeah, might require an abortion.
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Yes, it might.
The bolded is supposed to say "will".
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