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Old 03-24-2020, 03:51 PM
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Are you willing to die from Covid 19 to help the economy?


Apparently this feller is:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/u...gtype=Homepage
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Old 03-24-2020, 03:54 PM
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No; I am not.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 03-24-2020 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 03:55 PM
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The goal isn’t dying for the economy - it’s getting the other guy to die for the economy.
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Old 03-24-2020, 03:56 PM
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Wow. Trump has gained a lot of weight in 3 years. He looks like Tweedledum. Or Tweedledee.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:01 PM
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That's gonna be a no for me, dawg.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:10 PM
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No. My dying is not going to help the economy. More important, I'm not willing for other people to die.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:14 PM
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Nooooooooooooo! Spent too many years tryin' to stay alive to change my course at this late date.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:16 PM
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I am embarrassed to be a Texan today .
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:19 PM
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Are you willing to die from Covid 19 to help the economy?


Nope.

And I'll continue to do my part to ensure others live, too.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:20 PM
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No, but I am willing to give up a ventilator for someone younger if it comes to that. I'm 63, if it matters. Just please keep me comfortable or help me end things as painlessly as possible.

I already have a DNR on file and I have informed my daughter about my feelings on this.

My decision will not help the economy but it might save a life.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:32 PM
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No, but I am willing to give up a ventilator for someone younger if it comes to that. I'm 63, if it matters. Just please keep me comfortable or help me end things as painlessly as possible.

....
Me, too. I'm 71 and don't have ANY family. I'm retired, not productive in any way, and don't contribute to society except by staying out of trouble. No one would miss me for more than 15 minutes. I'd like to find homes for my pets before I croak off, however.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:33 PM
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I am embarrassed to be a Texan today .
Dan Patrick has been a notorious moron for a long time now. The only dumber or more obnoxious politicians that we have are Louie Gohmert, who is a total idiot, and Briscoe Cain, who was literally a special ed student (he's an Aspergers person). All 3 let idealism and talking points get in the way of common sense or good governance.

The three of them would be the torch bearers for short-sighted, toxic conservatism, except that they'd probably burn each other with the torches.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:35 PM
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There is no economy if I'm dead.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:38 PM
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What economy is it if it can't account for humanity in the process? I'd rather let the economy die, as it failed to serve us in our moment of need.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:41 PM
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Me, too. I'm 71 and don't have ANY family. I'm retired, not productive in any way, and don't contribute to society except by staying out of trouble. No one would miss me for more than 15 minutes. I'd like to find homes for my pets before I croak off, however.
I'd miss you Thelma.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:53 PM
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Are you willing to die from Covid 19 to help the economy?


Is Trump willing to die from COVID-19 to help the economy?

If so, I might give it some consideration.
  #17  
Old 03-24-2020, 05:03 PM
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All indicators at this point are leaning toward incredibly low percentages of people getting real sick when factoring in estimates of not diagnosed cases. The fear of this virus is far beyond the actual threat. Italy has about 30,000,000 old people I think I read somewhere. The entire country looks like it has been exposed yet only about 7,000 have died so far and not likely to exceed 20,000. Very good odds! Certainly not bad enough to alter ones lifestyle over.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:06 PM
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Nope. And the guy shooting his mouth off obviously has access to good medical. Soon as he runs a temperature, all bets are off.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
All indicators at this point are leaning toward incredibly low percentages of people getting real sick when factoring in estimates of not diagnosed cases. The fear of this virus is far beyond the actual threat. Italy has about 30,000,000 old people I think I read somewhere. The entire country looks like it has been exposed yet only about 7,000 have died so far and not likely to exceed 20,000. Very good odds! Certainly not bad enough to alter ones lifestyle over.
It's because Italians have "altered their lifestyles" that those numbers are where they are and not an order of magnitude higher.

Last edited by Smapti; 03-24-2020 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:27 PM
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No, and it's an incredibly stupid idea anyway.

I don't WANT to do those things right now. It was 95% of the social life for me and my kids, and it sucks, but I'm not going to risk my health and my life to do those things.

Now there are services that have to be done. Those people should probably be getting hazard pay right now. Something like that, farmer, trucker, medical worker, things that HAVE to be done, yeah, someone has to do them, and how can I say I shouldn't do them?

The people out of work, no one predicted this. It is a natural disaster. They should get aid.

So long as I am working, I am willing to have my taxes (and others) raised to pay for these people. I have extra money that I am saving by not doing these things.

But I'd rather you took the money from me. And I just won't go. I'm not going to play pub trivia again until the crisis is passed. Take the money from me if need be, but I'm not doing those things because they AREN'T ESSENTIAL AND I DON'T NEED TO DO THEM. Dying in a war would make more sense.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:28 PM
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In general, yes.

Recessions and depressions kill people. Those deaths are less direct and harder to count than deaths from the disease but they are no less real. The lockdown orders that harm the economy also increase social isolation. That social isolation kills people. The question is really about my willingness to risk my own death to save others. That is clearly a yes. I am thankful that there are people right now treating the sick and stocking shelves at the grocery stores with answers similar to mine.

That does not mean that I want to maximize the risks or walk into a wood chipper to merely save people from discomfort. We should be smart and mitigate risks as a society to try and minimize deaths overall. Minimizing deaths overall is not the same as minimizing deaths directly from the disease. We should not delude ourselves that it is.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:29 PM
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I'd miss you Thelma.
Aw, Honey. You're sweet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Kabong View Post
Is Trump willing to die from COVID-19 to help the economy?

If so, I might give it some consideration.
I give this idea a thumbs-up!
  #23  
Old 03-24-2020, 05:35 PM
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I'm not dying for a corrupt economy.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:49 PM
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Well, after this week I go back to work. Maybe I have it right now, who knows, I can't get tested. But it's two weeks on the sidelines and then back to work for me.

I've already decided not to fight it. Nurses and doctors are getting their assess kicked right now, and risking infection for the privilege. I'm not making a contribution or taking a risk like that, but it is definitely riskier than staying home like everyone else. The idea isn't that I croak from going to work- somebody has to do it and anyway I think I would survive this virus, if I didn't just do exactly that. I'm ok with me making the choice for myself to take the risk.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:49 PM
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There's definitely some risk of death I'd assume in order to maintain economic growth.

After all, that's the tradeoff I make every time I get in the car to drive to work.

The mistake the dumbass from Texas is making is not realizing that there's a tradeoff between risk and economic growth, it's that you can't make that tradeoff with an infectious disease like this. Any gains from growth will be linear (X more people working), but costs will be exponential (Y^2.5ish people dying). Even if we had the political will to keep on while bodies piled up on the streets, it wouldn't be worth it. In reality, continuing on right now would just make things much much worse before we finally had to dampen the economy to stop the infection.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:14 PM
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No.

I mean, there are some things I'd be willing to die for. Lofty principles like civil rights, for instance. I might be compelled to sacrifice my life if doing so would save the life of many others. (I say might because I can imagine myself being heroic, but I don't know if I'd actually be heroic.)

But save our the economy? The economy we have now? Hell to the naw.

Yes, people will commit suicide because they've lost their jobs and businesses. But this is a problem we can address through social policy. People fall into despair over unemployment because there's nothing scarier than the threat of homelessness, starvation, and zero health care coverage combined with debt. Perhaps if we had a more ample social safety net, people wouldn't off themselves during a recession. They would be sad, but not kill-me-now sad.

I would be willing to pare back on my current quality of life if that's what it took to ensure we all have guaranteed food, housing, and medical care. I might even be willing to die if for some strange reason that's what it took for us to have a better society. But I will never endorse a plan that involves me being used as a blood sacrifice for Mammon.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:30 PM
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The economy is a sunk cost. If 2 million people die--even if "only" a million of them are old--it will shitcan the economy. If we shelter in place, it will destroy the economy. Either way, we are fucked. We should make the choice that gives us maximum productive capacity after and is the most humane--and that's what we are doing with shelter in place.

But people are bad at understanding sunk cost.
  #28  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:35 PM
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Is Trump willing to die from COVID-19 to help the economy?
I'm not sure this would work. But I'm willing to give it a try.
  #29  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:41 PM
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All indicators at this point are leaning toward incredibly low percentages of people getting real sick when factoring in estimates of not diagnosed cases.
This is your not real sick.

And it's one of the more unpleasant ways to die:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/o...gtype=Homepage

Quote:
The isolation is, of course, even more profound for those who are infected with, or are being evaluated for, coronavirus. I took care of one such patient who was intubated when he started coughing up blood on the general medical floor. He was alone in his room, on FaceTime with his daughter, when it started. So that is the last image she has of her father — on a shaky computer screen, blood staining his hospital gown. I offer her updates over the phone, but the truth is that I am not sure when she will be able to see him again.

Or even if she will be able to see him. The devastating image of the lonely deaths of coronavirus patients in Italy hangs over us all. Talking with one of the nurse practitioners in our hospital’s new Covid-19 I.C.U. one recent night, I asked what worried her most. “Patients dying alone,” she replied quickly.
This is more from the docs point of view, but also worth reading:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...y-room-doctor/

Quote:
For the rest of your 12-hour shift, nearly every hour, you get paged: Stat notification: Very sick patient, short of breath, fever. Oxygen 88 percent. Stat notification: Low blood pressure, short of breath, low oxygen. Stat notification: Low oxygen, can’t breathe. Fever. All day ...

Last edited by PhillyGuy; 03-24-2020 at 07:41 PM.
  #30  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:42 PM
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No, thank you for asking.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:44 PM
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If God-Emperor Trump needs me to sacrifice myself for his glory, I'll do it without question.

  #32  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:48 PM
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My wife, yes. The economy? Fuck that!

EAT THE RICH! EAT THE RICH! EAT THE RICH!
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  #33  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:51 PM
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The point I think many of you are missing is that if someone goes back to work happy enough to take their chances with COVID-19 that’s all very well for them, however it also means they will probably infect a whole chain of other people. One of those people can easily have underlying health conditions and die.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:54 PM
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Maybe, but I'd really like to see Republican leadership lead the action.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:15 PM
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All indicators at this point are leaning toward incredibly low percentages of people getting real sick when factoring in estimates of not diagnosed cases. The fear of this virus is far beyond the actual threat. Italy has about 30,000,000 old people I think I read somewhere. The entire country looks like it has been exposed yet only about 7,000 have died so far and not likely to exceed 20,000. Very good odds! Certainly not bad enough to alter ones lifestyle over.
In places that don't have an overwhelmed health-system, like South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong,Japan ... even France so far, deaths have been about 1 - 5 % of cases.

In Italy it's running at 10% of cases. That means maybe 3,500 or so of those 7,000 could have lived if they got better medical care. (I'm being very conservative there ... the avoidable deaths is probably higher, and also doesn't count people who died of other stuff while their doctors were desperately trying to save corona patients)

That's a World Trade Center levels of unnecessary death in about a month, in a country that's a fifth of the size of the US.

How long are you willing to have five World Trade Centers a month for?
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:40 PM
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The point I think many of you are missing is that if someone goes back to work happy enough to take their chances with COVID-19 that’s all very well for them, however it also means they will probably infect a whole chain of other people. One of those people can easily have underlying health conditions and die.
I am not missing it. I approach the ballot box as a trolley problem. We all make dozen of decisions a day in normal times that increase the risk of death for both ourselves and others.

2Bits asked specifically about risk to myself. I will also acknowledge that I am also willing to risk others for sound policy. Those risks are high enough in a nation of 329 million that is synonymous with saying that I am willing to make choices that determine who lives and who dies. There simply is not an option in dealing with the disease that doesn't kill anyone. I prefer to minimize overall losses. That is not necessarily the same as minimizing direct losses to the disease even if right now there is not a significant difference.
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Old 03-24-2020, 09:28 PM
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In places that don't have an overwhelmed health-system, like South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong,Japan ... even France so far, deaths have been about 1 - 5 % of cases.

In Italy it's running at 10% of cases. That means maybe 3,500 or so of those 7,000 could have lived if they got better medical care. (I'm being very conservative there ... the avoidable deaths is probably higher, and also doesn't count people who died of other stuff while their doctors were desperately trying to save corona patients)

That's a World Trade Center levels of unnecessary death in about a month, in a country that's a fifth of the size of the US.

How long are you willing to have five World Trade Centers a month for?
How do we know that Italy doesn't have infections of a million or more and most people simply don't need a Dr. I hope over the next few weeks we find out more about un diagnosed cases. I have a feeling the un diagnosed far outnumber those seeking medical attention and getting tested
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:04 PM
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I'm essential. I am effectively required to go back to work.

Here's the math for all the pedants at home: I had flu symptoms. I can't get tested. Given the timing, assume I was infected and quarantine for two weeks. Then back to work. Can't get tested, but we assumed I had it already, so now we assume I am immune.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:19 PM
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but I've heard that before you can take a Coronavirus test you need to take a test (multiple tests actually,) for all the other things that it could possibly be before they test for Covid-19. Anyone know?
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:28 PM
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A moral dilemma (the ratios may need adjusting):

You have to make one of two choices. If you choose A, someone over sixty is chosen at random and killed (likely suffering on the way, but probably hospitalized). If you choose B, twenty people will face economic hardship for the next two years; five of them will lose their jobs outright.

I'm willing to bet (certainly if you made the survey anonymous) there'd be significant differences in the choice averages depending on American party affiliation (and foreign variants thereof).
  #41  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:41 PM
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With regards to other screening tests before getting a Covid 19 test, it depends on your local area. Testing currently has 2 tiers. There is official Health Department/CDC testing. That requires that you have symptoms and known exposure or known high risk. It is also recommended that you have testing for influenza and a full viral panel and that they are negative before testing for Covid 19. Then there are the independent labs. Technically, a doctor could test anyone they want to at an independent lab and if they test positive, they then get retested officially. HOWEVER, due to the shortage of tests and supplies, many hospitals are adhering to strict CDC guidelines for all tests. For example, a patient I had with suspicious symptoms (fever and dry cough, recent international travel) saw me and was advised to stay home and self-quarantine. instead, he went to the ER. They determined that he was not sick enough to be admitted and called me to tell me he would not be tested and that I could do it if I wanted. I told them that since he technically met criteria and I can't do it in the office (labs only taking frozen specimens-which nobody mentions) could they please test him there. They agreed, but protocol said to test for flu and other viruses first. He came up positive for another virus so was sent home without a test. It's probable that he does have the other virus since the symptoms in adults can be identical. Then again, don't forget the swab shortage. The local Kaiser is following CDC guidelines but they have stopped doing the screening flu and virus tests because they use the same swabs and they need to conserve them. So the short answer is, you are supposed to screen for other viruses first but you are not required to and due to shortages we may not be able to.
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  #42  
Old 03-25-2020, 05:10 AM
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What? No! Too much of the gain in the economy is reserved for the ultra-wealthy. There is way too much money flowing around for the wrong reasons in our economy, and it depends on the luck of birth more than anything else.

I guess maybe I'd be willing to die if it would impact many of the people around the bottom of the pile. But I don't think that's the option.
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Old 03-25-2020, 05:49 AM
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Here's a volunteer-->

Glenn Beck offers to die to save America from a COVID-19 shutdown
Quote:
"I want to have a frank conversation with you," commentator Glenn Beck, 56, said on his show Tuesday, the latest conservative to paint the coronavirus lockdowns in terms of life versus liberty. "I would rather have my children stay home and all of us who are over 50 go in and keep this economy going and working, even if we all get sick. I would rather die than kill the country, because it's not the economy that's dying, it's the country."

"When he says 'I' he means of course 'you,'" David Frum [of The Atlantic] tweeted in response to Beck's death offer, issued from safe inside his Dallas-area home studio. But even if he was serious about dying to save America from sheltering in place to keep doctors and hospitals from collapsing under the weight of a spike in COVID-19 cases, Beck, like Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick (R) on Monday night, is presenting "a false binary, and a distraction," Christopher Hooks writes at Texas Monthly. "The only way to get the economy going again is to contain the virus. The only way to contain the virus is to pause the economy, and in order to do that as briefly as possible, the economic timeout has to be thorough."
....
Okay by me. Go with to God, Glenn.

Last edited by ThelmaLou; 03-25-2020 at 05:49 AM.
  #44  
Old 03-25-2020, 05:58 AM
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"I would rather have my children stay home and all of us who are over 50 go in and keep this economy going and working ..."
Umm, hate to interupt you Glenn, but could you explain to us all exactly how you keep this economy going and working? What essential product or service do you provide humanity? Thanks in advance!

CMC fnord!
  #45  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:11 AM
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Much of this debate turns on the phrase "help the economy". Many participants in this debate still think that the economy is the stock market. No, I'm not willing to die for that.

If we're talking about universal healthcare, UBI, free education all the way to post-grad level, that's an economy I might find worthy of dying for.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 03-25-2020 at 06:11 AM.
  #46  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:36 AM
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I wonder if Glenn Beck will go to the hospital if he gets ill and starts to have shortness of breath?

If he doesn't, then I'll be the first to take my hat off to the dude. But if he does, I think it would be fair game to ridicule him for making that choice. You can't boast about how you'd be willing to die for the sake of the country and then chicken out when shit gets too real for you.
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Old 03-25-2020, 06:41 AM
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This is my body and it is what it says it is and it says "No"

Where would I go anyway even my children don't like me?
  #48  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:04 AM
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How do we know that Italy doesn't have infections of a million or more and most people simply don't need a Dr.
Because we can Science?

Or at least, some of us can.

I mean, I also believe Italy's case numbers are an undercount, but even if it was as much as a 100x undercount (a very heroic figure in its own right) that still puts Italy in line for tens of thousands more deaths, and the US is still up for five times as many deaths as Italy unless it changes course
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Old 03-25-2020, 07:08 AM
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Much of this debate turns on the phrase "help the economy". Many participants in this debate still think that the economy is the stock market. No, I'm not willing to die for that.

If we're talking about universal healthcare, UBI, free education all the way to post-grad level, that's an economy I might find worthy of dying for.
Since the people making the argument are Republicans, then we need to consider the Republican economy. The Republican economy is the stock market, not universal healthcare, UBI, free education, or any of those things.
  #50  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:11 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
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The way I interpret the argument is “the economy (meaning the stock market) is more important than your lives.” Is there really any other way to interpret this argument?
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