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  #101  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:57 PM
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Never mind... already cited.

Last edited by cmosdes; 03-25-2020 at 07:59 PM.
  #102  
Old 03-25-2020, 08:03 PM
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Hell no I'm not willing to die for the economy. I'm happy to let Glenn Beck and his ilk do their part.
  #103  
Old 03-25-2020, 08:20 PM
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There were 3 waves to the Spanish Flu, but by far the deadliest lasted 3 months. The other two were relatively mild in comparison.
Here is a chart of deaths per 1,000 over time. The "mild" third wave was only 12 or so per thousand. Today a similarly "mild" flu would result in over 3 million deaths. The lower rate was likely due to immunity from that part of the population which caught the flu on the second wave and survived.
  #104  
Old 03-25-2020, 08:30 PM
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I had this conversation with my 70 year old father with an auto immune disease and I'm ok with him dying to not mortgage my daughters future. I don't have to go out to the greater public any more than I am currently so its hard for me to say I'd risk myself. In general my wife and I would be ok going back to living our normal life knowing there was a 20% chance of dying in exchange not having a 10+ trillion dollar debt that will impact my daughters their whole lives.

I think the answer is I'd be ok with dying for the economy but that feels wrong.
A 20% chance of each of you dying means that there is over a 1 in 3 chance of at least one of you dying. You really would accept a 1 in 3 chance of your daughter being an orphan to maybe keep her from higher inflation in the future? Would you play Russian Roulette with those odds for a more immediate return? I doubt it.
  #105  
Old 03-25-2020, 08:41 PM
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I wonder how many people would have to take this devil's bargain for it to be worth anything. Say 1% took it. That's not going to be enough customers to keep any restaurants open. When I was working, if 1% of our staff came in they might as well not, since nothing would get done.
That's certainly true for factories. Put 1% of the people on the assembly line and see how far you get.
10% would be no better. 50%? Maybe. I think you'd need well over that.

And of course, would you want to be the first? You'd be risking your life for almost no benefit.
Remember, the airlines are cutting domestic flights not because of government dictates, but because no one is flying.
Would this mean that companies would be able to pressure their employees to sign the pledge to go back to work?
Basically, it would people at risk without helping the economy at all.
  #106  
Old 03-25-2020, 09:42 PM
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That absolutely closes out those questions! Thanks for doing that research.
Happy to be of service!
  #107  
Old 03-25-2020, 09:52 PM
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This whole thread, why anyone would argue, is just beyond stupid and morally illiterate.

If you are worried about people, JUST GIVE THEM MONEY. IT IS MONEY.

I have said this before. I am not going to play pub trivia right now. I have also said I would pay, pay tax, equal to the amount that I spend on things I can't do right now, and even take nothing in return for what I am paying. To help those who might be out of a job.

But I would rather pay that and get nothing than pay the same and sit in the bar for 2 hours and possibly get COVID-19. The personal interaction is a negative value right now. You can take my portion of the money, I am fine with that. But the whole risking my life thing, there is absolutely no reason for me to do that. It's completely disconnected from the money, and idiotic that anyone thinks that risking your life sitting in a bar for two hours adds any value whatsoever. It doesn't.

You want to risk your life, get involved in some sort of essential service that actually needs to be maintained. Otherwise, take care of the rest of the people with money, I will pay my share, and leave the completely needless risk of life out of it.
Can I have some money? I'm serious. I lost my job to this. I'm not even sick. They just cut staff. I have $0 income right now, and I have four mouths to feed. I'm broke. If you're really willing to cough up the pub money, would you paypal me your $20?
  #108  
Old 03-25-2020, 11:28 PM
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Here is a chart of deaths per 1,000 over time. The "mild" third wave was only 12 or so per thousand. Today a similarly "mild" flu would result in over 3 million deaths. The lower rate was likely due to immunity from that part of the population which caught the flu on the second wave and survived.
It would be good to see that chart geographically. If the lower numbers were due to immunity, then the areas that suffered through the 2nd wave were probably not nearly as badly hit on the 3rd wave and, in effect, only had to do deal with one wave. Each wave lasted 3 months, so from a specific location perspective, it lasted 3 months. But I don't know. I'm curious if that is how it worked out. If there id data like that which breaks it out for say, Western Europe, Australia and North America it would be really interesting.
  #109  
Old 03-25-2020, 11:51 PM
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Happy to be of service!
I wondered about something. If 40,000 people die because of unemployment, when unemployment goes up so will the number who die.

Unemployment was hovering around 4% for quite a while, so I'll assume that 40,000 is related to that rate.

If we hit a recession, or worse, where the unemployment rate rises to 20%, that would indicate a 5x increase in the number of deaths due to uninsured, assuming that relationship is linear. It very well might not be.

But maybe the death rate isn't linear. Maybe it only increases by a factor of 0.7 or something. A 14% unemployment rate (3.5x) would mean an ~2.5x increase in the death rate. So instead of 40,000/year dying it would be 100,000. It doesn't include bankruptcies and other lives crushed because of lack of insurance.

So just looking at a sort of order of magnitude of all this, I don't think the death rate due to unemployment is as easily dismissed as it first appeared. It still doesn't justify letting so many suffer and die because of this disease, but the secondary effects aren't as negligible as I first thought by your well researched post.
  #110  
Old 03-25-2020, 11:54 PM
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To the original post:

What a dumb-ass question. It's the kind of thing I would expect from conservatives if Hillary was president. Dopers (rightfully) criticized conservatives for the Obamacare "death camps" and yet this thread proves that they can do the same stupid shit. Let's take out all nuance, re-frame it in the worst possible interpretation, and then pretend it's the common outcome.

If Hillary was president the question would look like this on the Dope: Would you be willing to risk a small chance of illness or even death to prevent the economy from going into the dumper, which would cause hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of people to lose their jobs and make their families destitute?

We can have a rational discussion on what we're willing to risk, economically or human, during this crisis. This thread is not it. The problem is that under all of these discussions is the assumption that if the economy is doing poorly then Trump loses in November. This makes it too easy for Dopers to dismiss the pain that would result from a bad economy.
  #111  
Old 03-25-2020, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Here is a chart of deaths per 1,000 over time. The "mild" third wave was only 12 or so per thousand. Today a similarly "mild" flu would result in over 3 million deaths. The lower rate was likely due to immunity from that part of the population which caught the flu on the second wave and survived.
And now I see your chart is for the UK, which answers that question.

Thanks!
  #112  
Old 03-26-2020, 12:30 AM
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If I was a Republican and didn't truly believe in my heart of hearts that all the races were equal I would really really love the idea of being able to condemn people to death for their perceived value to the economy. I feel like there was a guy back in the day who did something similar but I can't remember his name...
  #113  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:20 AM
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It would be good to see that chart geographically. If the lower numbers were due to immunity, then the areas that suffered through the 2nd wave were probably not nearly as badly hit on the 3rd wave and, in effect, only had to do deal with one wave. Each wave lasted 3 months, so from a specific location perspective, it lasted 3 months. But I don't know. I'm curious if that is how it worked out. If there id data like that which breaks it out for say, Western Europe, Australia and North America it would be really interesting.
The Wiki article which included the chart is pretty good. The focus did move around. However I'm not sure how relevant that is for today, since it was much harder to travel long distances, and there was the impact of the war which forced many potential victims to be close together in army camps.
  #114  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:24 AM
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And now I see your chart is for the UK, which answers that question.

Thanks!
I looked for deaths over time, since that is an interesting statistic, but the UK chart is the only thing I found. I'm sure the third peak has something to do with soldiers coming back from France.
  #115  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:31 AM
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To the original post:

What a dumb-ass question. It's the kind of thing I would expect from conservatives if Hillary was president. Dopers (rightfully) criticized conservatives for the Obamacare "death camps" and yet this thread proves that they can do the same stupid shit. Let's take out all nuance, re-frame it in the worst possible interpretation, and then pretend it's the common outcome.

If Hillary was president the question would look like this on the Dope: Would you be willing to risk a small chance of illness or even death to prevent the economy from going into the dumper, which would cause hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of people to lose their jobs and make their families destitute?

We can have a rational discussion on what we're willing to risk, economically or human, during this crisis. This thread is not it. The problem is that under all of these discussions is the assumption that if the economy is doing poorly then Trump loses in November. This makes it too easy for Dopers to dismiss the pain that would result from a bad economy.
If Hillary were president she would not be calling on things being back to normal so that the churches can be filled with possibly infectious people for Easter. If Hillary were president she'd be listening to the medical people, not touting unproven remedies. If Hillary were president she would be using her powers to get masks and other equipment manufactured, not holding back for the sake of the free market.
The way to ease the pain is stimulus, like enhanced unemployment, which finally got passed in the Senate. It is not to say that hey, millions have died, but at least the bars are open.
  #116  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:06 AM
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I want to be brave enough to do this, but I'm not sure I will be. I'm also scared that I'll call 911 and they will be too overwhelmed to respond, leaving me to die alone in agony.

I'd like to at least have a way to end things here at home if that happens. Jesus god, I need something for anxiety!
If you are in a state with legal medical marijuana, cannabis can really help with anxiety. That's what is keeping me going.

But I'm normally pessimistic. I've kept a supply of "medicine" on hand for the past 30 or so years, replacing it when it expires. If I can get to my medicine cabinet when the need arises, I can go peacefully.
  #117  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:51 AM
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Lets put some numbers to this discussion.

Regarding recessions and depressions killing people -
Research has put the number of excess cancer deaths in the US due to the GFC at around 18,000: 9,000 per year over two years cite. Obviously that's just one cause, but this chart of death rates by cause which covers the GFC period doesn't seem to show all that much of an anything for the relevant period

Other research shows the effect of the Great Depression on death rates to be ... basically zero. That seems to be a little small to be believed, honestly, but whatever effect it did have is obviously small enough to be hard to pick up on.

Meanwhile....

Other research claims that excess deaths due to being uninsured in America - a problem that the powers that be seem to be in no hurry to fix - is around 45,000 per year.

Estimates of deaths from a 'let her rip' covid outbreak that infects nearly everyone at once range from a ridiculously low half a million or so (only a third of the country ends up with the disease, the death rate is no more than the 0.6% reported in well-managed South Korea) up to a still-plausible seven-and-a-half million (half the country gets it, all of the 5% who need intensive care don't get any, and they all die)

You see why many of us won't take the 'but economic downturns cause death too!' argument seriously.
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That absolutely closes out those questions! Thanks for doing that research.
Agreed. Thanks for doing that research.
  #118  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:03 AM
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I'm a locomotive engineer for a major freight railroad in the N.E., an essential employee. I did go to work earlier this week, but saw that they were not taking this seriously at all. They just had a couple of extra soap dispensers in the crew offices, that's it. Other wise its just business as usual. We are still doing crew swaps without the engines being cleaned, and we are still going to the hotel at the end of the trip. A train coming from Chicago could of had 4 different crews on it before I board, and the risk at the hotels is obvious.

If they can't be bothered to come up with new protocols to minimize my chances of getting infected, then I see no need to expose myself, to that essential employee or not.

I'm not willing to die for the economy, I'm staying home for now.
  #119  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:23 AM
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I'm a locomotive engineer for a major freight railroad in the N.E., an essential employee. I did go to work earlier this week, but saw that they were not taking this seriously at all. They just had a couple of extra soap dispensers in the crew offices, that's it. Other wise its just business as usual. We are still doing crew swaps without the engines being cleaned, and we are still going to the hotel at the end of the trip. A train coming from Chicago could of had 4 different crews on it before I board, and the risk at the hotels is obvious.

If they can't be bothered to come up with new protocols to minimize my chances of getting infected, then I see no need to expose myself, to that essential employee or not.

I'm not willing to die for the economy, I'm staying home for now.
Thank you. I mean that sincerely -- thank you for putting the health and safety of yourself and your fellow americans ahead of a couple extra days of work.
  #120  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:27 AM
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Is Trump willing to die from COVID-19 to help the economy?

If so, I might give it some consideration.
Why not? He is in the target age range. Overweight, too.
  #121  
Old 03-26-2020, 12:06 PM
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28 years ago DesertWife was diagnosed with ALS; nine months later she was dead. It affected her diaphragm early and she could not breathe properly, making her lungs fill with fluid.

Her first crisis she went to ER and was intubated, her lungs cleared and duly moved to ICU. Gradually they reduced the settings on the ventilator to see if she could be taken off of it and two days later they removed the intubation.

She began to fail within the hour and it was apparent she would have to spend the rest of her life on a vent. After a discussion with her two daughters and me she elected not to do that, and was moved from ICU to the hospice wing of the hospital.

We held her hands and over a period of seven hours watched her slowly die. She went peacefully. Her breaths were shallower and shallower until we could hear the rales without a stethoscope. Then she took a last rattling breath, exhaled, and the next breath never came.

She died surrounded by her loved ones, not alone because they might get it too, not gasping her life out like a fish out of water on the goddam floor because they've run out of beds.

I would not wish a death like that on anyone. Not Glen Beck, not the Republican elders, not even Trump. Anyone who's okay with condemning hundreds of thousands, if not millions is looking at the idea in the abstract, not imagining what it would be like at all.
  #122  
Old 03-26-2020, 12:47 PM
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I, for one, would love this question (worded much better, though) and recorded on the 2020 Census form so we can make a nice, easily accessed list of people to treat/not treat if they do get ill.
  #123  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:10 PM
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Why does anybody think that if we have uncontrolled disease all over the country the economy will do just fine?

The people who die won't all be decrepit and about to go anyway; some of them will be in the prime of their lives, and some will be people who are older and/or with other health conditions but who were still productive workers -- in some cases with the best knowledge of how to do their jobs.

And the people who don't die won't all be happily doing their jobs (even except from time off for funerals) with nothing worse than the sniffles. Some will only have the sniffles, or no symptoms at all, yes. But a lot of even those who will recover without medical care will have something like a very bad flu. They'll be unable to work at all effectively for days or weeks, and unable to work at peak productivity for longer than that. (Even aside from the fact that many people can't work effectively while Grandma, or Dad, or their marriage partner, is dying on the floor or in the back bedroom due to a lack of hospital beds.)

If we let everybody get it more or less at once, then this is going to happen all at once. There are going to be a whole lot of jobs not getting done, or getting done badly -- and doing them badly will cause additional injury, both physical and economic.

This is like those questions I sometimes see trying to pit the economy against environmental protections. If we don't protect the environment, sooner or later the environmental damage will damage the economy. If we want a healthy economy, we have to have a healthy environment. And if we want a healthy economy, we also have to have a healthy workforce. A small percentage sick at any one time is bound to happen, and is built into how things work; a small increase in the number of people sick at any one time isn't that hard to deal with. A large percentage of people all sick at once? That's an economic disaster on its own.

We don't have a choice between saving the economy and saving the people. We have a choice between saving the people while damaging the economy, or killing a lot more people than necessary while damaging the economy. In the short term, the economy's screwed either way.

The more people who come through this a) in reasonable shape and b) feeling reasonably well about how they were treated in the process, the better chance we have of pulling the economy back up again in not too long a time.
  #124  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:56 PM
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Why does anybody think that if we have uncontrolled disease all over the country the economy will do just fine?
What interests are served by a pandemic-obliterated US economy? Who gains by convincing Americans it's no big thing, a partisan hoax, over-reaction, or whatever?
  #125  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:49 PM
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What interests are served by a pandemic-obliterated US economy? Who gains by convincing Americans it's no big thing, a partisan hoax, over-reaction, or whatever?
The guy who wants all these problems to go away by November. And who has zero understanding of the science, and probably no respect for the people who do.
  #126  
Old 03-27-2020, 10:14 AM
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Dear people who are willing to die to prop up the economy:

This is what you're willing to die for:

California teenager dies of COVID-19 because he lacked insurance

You want this kind of cruelty if you want the economy to go back to normal.
  #127  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:02 AM
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Dear people who are willing to die to prop up the economy:

This is what you're willing to die for:

California teenager dies of COVID-19 because he lacked insurance

You want this kind of cruelty if you want the economy to go back to normal.
I'm not sure anyone is willing to die for the economy, but I'm guessing many are willing to take the risk.

As a matter of fact, this article is almost a case for trying to keep the economy going. We don't know if this kid was laid off from a job that was providing health insurance which was then lost because the business had to close. How will you feel if that is the case? Will you decide it is better to try to keep everyone employed and on health insurance, or do the 3 million people who lost their health insurance not matter? Not to mention the dependents of those who lost their jobs.
  #128  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:25 AM
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I'm not sure anyone is willing to die for the economy, but I'm guessing many are willing to take the risk.

As a matter of fact, this article is almost a case for trying to keep the economy going. We don't know if this kid was laid off from a job that was providing health insurance which was then lost because the business had to close. How will you feel if that is the case? Will you decide it is better to try to keep everyone employed and on health insurance, or do the 3 million people who lost their health insurance not matter? Not to mention the dependents of those who lost their jobs.
I'd love it if the president said, "OK, folks. I've heard you. I'll open up Medicare for everyone right now so that no one has to worry about insurance ever again."

If he does this one little thing, I might go along with a plan to lift shelter-in-place orders.

But if by "back to normal", you really mean "back to normal"? No. I'm not a fan of going back to "normal" when that means people, unemployed or no, Coronavirus or no, dying just because they lack health insurace.
  #129  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:36 AM
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I'd love it if the president said, "OK, folks. I've heard you. I'll open up Medicare for everyone right now so that no one has to worry about insurance ever again."

If he does this one little thing, I might go along with a plan to lift shelter-in-place orders.

But if by "back to normal", you really mean "back to normal"? No. I'm not a fan of going back to "normal" when that means people, unemployed or no, Coronavirus or no, dying just because they lack health insurace.
I'm really hoping this does mean a complete overhaul of our health care system within a year, so I'm right there with you. That would mean at least 1 good thing came of all this.

Even if we could get medicare for all right now, I still wouldn't support going back to work. Not yet. All the insurance in the world isn't going to help an overrun healthcare system.
  #130  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:34 PM
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What interests are served by a pandemic-obliterated US economy? Who gains by convincing Americans it's no big thing, a partisan hoax, over-reaction, or whatever?
Putin, maybe?

That's not my point. My point is, that everybody who's insisting we should reopen everything in order to help the economy, are ignoring the fact that opening everything will ALSO damage the economy, because if a whole lot of people get sick all at once THAT WILL ALSO RUIN THE ECONOMY.
  #131  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:21 PM
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Will you decide it is better to try to keep everyone employed and on health insurance, or do the 3 million people who lost their health insurance not matter? Not to mention the dependents of those who lost their jobs.
How about we do what every other civilized nation has done (and even some not-so-civilized) and institute universal health coverage instead of this jacked up piece of shit we currently have? Wouldn't have guaranteed the kid would have survived but at least he would have had SOME chance instead of being shoved out the door to die.
  #132  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:37 PM
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Yes, from across the pond it seems ridiculous that insurance coverage is a topic of discussion...instead of numbers of beds and ventilators.

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  #133  
Old 03-27-2020, 07:40 PM
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Anyone in a tontine in these trying times?
  #134  
Old Yesterday, 02:54 AM
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Not from the US but:

No, but between dying of pneumonia and dying of starvation because you spend months without work, without any welfare either, but the bills keep coming just the same, i figure that many would probably prefer risking the former.
  #135  
Old Yesterday, 12:14 PM
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How about we make sure the bills don't keep coming just the same, and/or provide money to pay them with?

In many areas, utility cutoffs are currently forbidden, evictions are on hold, and serious efforts are underway to get food to people in need of it. Some financial aid, in the USA, is in process of being provided. Instead of also bringing the economy down by having everybody get sick at once, plus giving people the pleasant choice of deciding whether to risk dying of pneumonia with no medical assistance available or to die of starvation, we need to do more of that sort of thing.

Yet again, what do you think will happen to the economy if almost everyone does get sick at once? How many restaurants, or bars, or card shops, or clothing stores, or airlines, will stay open and able to pay wages if their customers start dying of having gone out to use them? (And how many of the ones who tried will close down when they get hit with the survivors' lawsuits?)
  #136  
Old Yesterday, 02:54 PM
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Anyone in a tontine in these trying times?
Not personally but I read their popularity is growing. Murder is superfluous. Yes, organize a national tontine with original capital subscribed from our personal bailout checks. As more subscribers croak, survivors receive increasing annuities. Can we start a tontine via a #GoFundMe campaign?
  #137  
Old Yesterday, 03:24 PM
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It's not the economy. Are you willing to give up your rights and freedom for your health, because that is the choice being offered.
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  #138  
Old Yesterday, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
The guy who wants all these problems to go away by November. And who has zero understanding of the science, and probably no respect for the people who do.
I don't think Trump wants *all* these problems to go away by November. He does want his designated signature achievements (the stock market and low unemployment) restored or on a recovery track by November. There's a decent chance the stock market tells a story of early recovery by then, but I can't imagine how unemployment bounces back that soon.

The rest of it... the chaos, the social disruption, the suffering... he welcomes it, because it provides the necessary air cover to justify voter suppression, facilitate election manipulation, shift the blame to other parties, and help conceal massive self-dealing between Trump and the US government.
  #139  
Old Yesterday, 03:26 PM
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If it comes down to me or the economy, the the economy is toast.
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  #140  
Old Yesterday, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SuntanLotion View Post
It's not the economy. Are you willing to give up your rights and freedom for your health, because that is the choice being offered.
Maybe you've heard that the US Constitution is not a suicide note. Just as [generic "you"] your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, so does your right to be contagious have limits. You don't get to endanger others. You may be prosecuted as a public nuisance or hazard, or for violating laws, regulations, and legal orders. Society get to protect itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
If it comes down to me or the economy, the the economy is toast.
When MrsRico and I drive around the Americas, we can choose to live on the "tourist economy" with all the usual chains, or on the "local economy" which usually costs much less. The US national economy is sure going through changes, as are all its component trade areas, the state and local economies. None are worth my death.

Croaked, I can no longer produce, distribute, trade, or consume goods and services. I'll be cremated and so won't even feed worms, won't be a component of the biosphere economy. Thus I'm worth more alive than dead unless I'm rendered down for valuable chemicals. But with zillions of other stiffs around, supply will outstrip demand so I'm still worth nothing dead. Might as well stay alive bit longer. But you are all doomed; send me your money and other valuables.
  #141  
Old Yesterday, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
How about we do what every other civilized nation has done (and even some not-so-civilized) and institute universal health coverage instead of this jacked up piece of shit we currently have? Wouldn't have guaranteed the kid would have survived but at least he would have had SOME chance instead of being shoved out the door to die.
That would be awesome, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, there is a reality in which we are dealing with all this. With that in mind, we need to figure out how to save the most lives.

It makes no sense for everyone to keep saying it would be great if we could get universal health care RIGHT NOW. We can't.
  #142  
Old Today, 06:01 AM
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People saying "we can't do this" since Nixon first propose expanding Medicare back in the early 70's is WHY we have such a jacked up piece of shit medical "system". The only reason we can't do this is because so many people have believe the bullshit they've been told that it can't be done. Literally a hundred other countries HAVE done it. At this point it's evil stupid cruelty. That's the reality.
  #143  
Old Today, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by cmosdes View Post
Unfortunately, there is a reality in which we are dealing with all this. With that in mind, we need to figure out how to save the most lives.
I wanted to address your actual question separately.

Here's how we "save the most lives"

1) STAY HOME. Really. STAY THE FRACK HOME. Unless you ACTUALLY have an essential job, stay the frack home. Shop as little as you possibly can - live on canned peaches and pineapple instead of fresh for a month.

2) WASH YOUR HANDS.

3) STAY HEALTHY AND UNINJURED TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY

4) TALK TO GOD IN YOUR HOME, NOT IN A CROWD OF PEOPLE IN A CONFINED SPACE. God can hear you just as well in your living room as anywhere else.

5) STOP THAT MAN-BABY IN WASHINGTON DC FROM MAKING LIFE OR DEATH DECISIONS BASED ON WHO HAS MOST RECENTLY KISSED HIS ASS. Who gets what should depend on actual medical need, and for god's sake don't add insult to injury by sending broken equipment to a hotspot

The above is how we're going to save lives. And we're going to have to do it for months, not weeks.
  #144  
Old Today, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuntanLotion View Post
It's not the economy. Are you willing to give up your rights and freedom for your health, because that is the choice being offered.
Typhoid Mary sure wasn't.
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  #145  
Old Today, 10:19 AM
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You are missing my point. There are people who want to use this as an entry to a global totalitarian government. You want to just roll over and let it happen? Fear works.
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  #146  
Old Today, 10:24 AM
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{...} people who want to use this as an entry to a global totalitarian government. {...}
That's it? Please tell us more about these 'people'! Name names. Give us some evidence.

CMC fnord!
  #147  
Old Today, 11:40 AM
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I got approved for a 3rd week off starting tomorrow, so if I am going to die from going to work, that doesn't start until Apr 6. If I even had it at all, that will surely be enough time to get over it.

I am going to have to go back out and take my chances, but at least I won't worry about being a source and infecting everybody.
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  #148  
Old Today, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
People saying "we can't do this" since Nixon first propose expanding Medicare back in the early 70's is WHY we have such a jacked up piece of shit medical "system". The only reason we can't do this is because so many people have believe the bullshit they've been told that it can't be done. Literally a hundred other countries HAVE done it. At this point it's evil stupid cruelty. That's the reality.
Wait.. you are saying other countries instituted universal health care in a couple of months?
  #149  
Old Today, 12:35 PM
cmosdes is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
I wanted to address your actual question separately.

Here's how we "save the most lives"

1) STAY HOME. Really. STAY THE FRACK HOME. Unless you ACTUALLY have an essential job, stay the frack home. Shop as little as you possibly can - live on canned peaches and pineapple instead of fresh for a month.

2) WASH YOUR HANDS.

3) STAY HEALTHY AND UNINJURED TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY

4) TALK TO GOD IN YOUR HOME, NOT IN A CROWD OF PEOPLE IN A CONFINED SPACE. God can hear you just as well in your living room as anywhere else.

5) STOP THAT MAN-BABY IN WASHINGTON DC FROM MAKING LIFE OR DEATH DECISIONS BASED ON WHO HAS MOST RECENTLY KISSED HIS ASS. Who gets what should depend on actual medical need, and for god's sake don't add insult to injury by sending broken equipment to a hotspot

The above is how we're going to save lives. And we're going to have to do it for months, not weeks.
You said in another post you are still working. What job do you have that is so vital, so critical to the continued existence of this country that you continue to go to that job?

Your talking points here address how to save the most lives in the next two months. This has been hashed out repeatedly on this site.

I'm glad you mentioned point 3. I was about to use my hammer to give myself a couple of broken hands. I'm glad I read your post first!

Point 5. I understand. A different world with a real leader would be awesome, wouldn't it? I can't tell you the number of times I thought how great it would be to have frictionless planes, no air resistance, perpetual motion, free energy, morgan fairchild as my wife (not really, but going for a touch of humor here.) Now that we've resolved the reality of what we do have, let's figure out the best way to help the most people.
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