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  #251  
Old 11-30-2019, 04:21 PM
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Again Kobal2 you miss the context of the room. Those intellectuals writing those longform bits are not succeeding in changing anyone's minds but they also are not trying to. They are aware that they are preaching to others who already think like they do and have escounced themselves safely in that room. They are playing for likes among their peer group.

Meanwhile you ignore the clear evidence I have presented that liberal views are in fact actually making steady gains in the marketplace of ideas.

To both you and MrDibble - I do not believe that this board allowing me to say something means that the board approves of what I say. I don't believe you really do either. They approve my being allowed to say it, yes.

I think I have shared this before. I grew up near Skokie and was 18 when the American Nazis wanted to march there. My take then (and it would be the same today) was that they should be given approval to march. No, that was not approval of their ideas.

IF they marched and no one watched them or to responded to them, preferring instead (as I was advocated for at the time) to go to a circus set up as an alternate activity, to mock them, would the community had been approving of their ideas?

When you refuse to feed a troll are you approving of what they say?


Back to the point of this thread - the issue is not either or for this board or any of its individual fora. Pretty much everyone agrees that there are some constraints that should be placed and different ones in different fora. And no one thinks that we should make this a safe place where there is no risk that anyone will ever be offended and no potentially sensitive subjects can be discussed. Really the question is just about where the sweet spot for the line is.
  #252  
Old 11-30-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
Thanks. Did that.

I'd like to invite all y'all to click on the button that shows who has posted and how many times. I am not 100% on everyone's demographics, but I am pretty sure I am the only woman who has made substantial contributions to this thread. Mr. Dibble is the only person of color. Is that because they are happy with the statusbquo, because they don't see the point of even trying, or because they are gone?
The reason I'm still around and haven't been driven away by the transphobia on display: I just don't open threads where a transphobic agenda is at work. It's easy to identify which ones those are from the typical insinuations used by transphobes. Even when they think they've worded those insinuations innocuously—I've heard it all already and I'm sick to death of it.

As I've posted before in transphobia threads that were emotionally harrowing for me: Threads where people debate whether I'm a woman or not, or what level of slur they feel justified in directing against us, are really painful for me to read. Don't give me any "debate" about people's right to exist who were born this way. To even set up such a "debate" is dehumanizing and vile. I won't debate anyone who believes I ought not to exist, I just scorn their evil bigotry. Logical contradictions run all through transphobia, and the fact is that those making such transphobic arguments have no coherent answers at all when you point out their logical flaws. They don't want to debate the answers to these questions. All they want is for us to stop existing. That's their entire program. We're not going to stop existing. That's why they will ultimately lose. All they can do is harass, harass, harass until our continued existence and fight for our equal rights will make them get tired eventually and give up harassing.

I've been immediately putting the worst offenders on ignore. That's the only thing I've ever used the ignore button for. That's how I've stuck it out this long. I'm grateful to all the SDMB cis people who have done good work in strongly refuting transphobia around here. It just gets too raw on the nerves for me to participate.
  #253  
Old 11-30-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
Thanks. Did that.

I'd like to invite all y'all to click on the button that shows who has posted and how many times. I am not 100% on everyone's demographics, but I am pretty sure I am the only woman who has made substantial contributions to this thread.
Hey I made a bunch of driveby jokes, that counts for something! (I mean technically I'm agender but the politics of woman/agender are... complicated at best in these contexts).

But yeah, this board is largely cishet white dudes jerking each other off.

Anyway, if you want an analysis of the use of debate I recommend

Why Debating Sucks (According To A Competitive Debater) by Sarah Z and Is "Civil Debate" Actually Useful? by T1J. Both of them have more nuanced opinions than you'd expect from the titles that yes, striking down bad arguments and actually bringing up ideas the opposition has instead of letting them stand is important, BUT calls for civility are ultimately a tactic that's unevenly applied and assumes everyone is coming to the table in good faith. Once example T1J gives is that if someone misgenders a trans person to their face, and the trans person threatens to beat them up, and you only condemn the trans person that's unevenly applied because they're both uncivil acts. He points out in general that civility unfairly favors bigots because if bigots are talking shit about your rights, your race, your gender/ID or sexuality or whatever, then it's legitimately difficult to have a "civil" conversation because that's a very personal and emotional topic for you. Trying to tear down peoples' rights, even through debate, is a form of violence in itself, no matter how calmly and civilly it's phrased. As the saying goes, "there is no such thing as peacefully advocating genocide."

I also recommend PhilosophyTube's videos on Antifa and Transphobia to varying degrees, they both address "civil" debate in small pieces. The transphobia one explores how transphobes inhabit a viewpoint of complete metaphysical skepticism (i.e. they can keep asking "why" like a toddler forever) that can make it impossible to make a cogent argument against. The Antifa video talks about how fascists abuse the "marketplace of ideas" concept to spread propaganda and gain followers regardless of their actual technical correctness. It (or another video, but I think it's that one) points out that, well, everyone has their own facts. That doesn't mean "all facts are relative", but peoples' ideology dictates which facts they feel are correct or biased or best supported. A lot of values are axiomatic. I made a big post about medical justifications for transgender rights in the "Gender is a Social Construct" thread going on now, but it bears repeating that medical/scientific evidence simply cannot support some arguments. It's a matter of your personal philosophy about the world, and not something the body of medical or social science can solve aside from basic statistical questions (and even then in issues such as trans research the number of studies needed to give weight to some arguments simply doesn't exist, or a lot of research is done by already biased people). A lot of arguments about rights are axiomatic not factual.

(Though note, both of those videos are long and only a small portion are about this topic, so watching them isn't as important).

Finally, I find value in udiences and Echo Chambers, A Look at The Rubin Report by Jose, which gives a case study on how the "marketplace of ideas" concept can create a feedback loop that can drive somebody (in this case Rubin) to a specific ideology (in this case, the right) absent any facts due to community self-reinforcement more than actual debate.

There's also the Alt-Right playbook, as mentioned above, which gives a series of videos about different tactics the right (and sometimes people in general) use to abuse the marketplace of ideas concept to spread their message.

My point on all this isn't "watch a bunch of almost hour long videos (except T1J's which is shorter) and get back to me", though if you have to pick one I'd recommend Sarah Z's followed by Jose's, my point is there is a very reasoned, thought out, nuanced, body of work about why debate is not uniformly useful, and why it is not the right option in many contexts and for many viewpoints. Note that none of these are saying that we shouldn't address the arguments or concerns of the bigoted, merely that debate is not always, and in some cases may be an actively counterproductive way, to do so. If you enjoy debating bigots, I mean... that's fine I guess, but don't convince yourself you're some paragon of virtue fighting the good fight. If you want to abuse the boards dumb tagline "fighting ignorance" note that there are often better ways of fighting ignorance by bypassing the bigots altogether instead of trying to debate them. And don't be surprised when minorities don't want to play your game and have to "civilly" have life or death discussions with people politely phrasing their denial of others' humanity, intelligence, sanity, or rights.

Finally, I leave you with this video, only 30 seconds! :)

Last edited by Jragon; 11-30-2019 at 04:45 PM.
  #254  
Old 11-30-2019, 04:54 PM
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Again Kobal2 you miss the context of the room. Those intellectuals writing those longform bits are not succeeding in changing anyone's minds but they also are not trying to. They are aware that they are preaching to others who already think like they do and have escounced themselves safely in that room. They are playing for likes among their peer group.
I disagree. While good debate is enjoyable, taking down a real fucking idiot and Putting Him In His Place is enjoyable in and of itself. That's why libs keep feeding trolls on their own boards. Compare and contrast with conservative forums/communities who will absolutely boot you if you show the slightest sign of not being hardcore conservative.

Also, the notion that liberal intellectuals only preach to their choir runs contrary to the prevalent discourse (or lamentation) that we don't get enough cogent conservative voices up in here. On the one hand, I'd agree that bouncing off ideas against someone who deffo doesn't share them but isn't some tool can be productive in and of itself, let one explore; refine, sharpen one's own ideas.
On the other hand, at the end of the refining process I can't come until my opponent reluctantly concedes that I might have some semblance of a point .

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Meanwhile you ignore the clear evidence I have presented that liberal views are in fact actually making steady gains in the marketplace of ideas.
I don't really ignore it, in fact the growing popularity of marxist/anti-capitalist discourse among millenials and zoomers gives me some measure of hope ; but at the same time far-right views are also on the sharp rise all over the globe. And I'm not sure you've noticed, but um... they keep getting elected, too. And get to enact quite a lot of their shit ideas, thanks to the support (and signal boosting) of cynical neolibs... and "useful idiot" centrists who keep giving them platforms.

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To both you and MrDibble - I do not believe that this board allowing me to say something means that the board approves of what I say. I don't believe you really do either. They approve my being allowed to say it, yes.

I think I have shared this before. I grew up near Skokie and was 18 when the American Nazis wanted to march there. My take then (and it would be the same today) was that they should be given approval to march. No, that was not approval of their ideas.

IF they marched and no one watched them or to responded to them, preferring instead (as I was advocated for at the time) to go to a circus set up as an alternate activity, to mock them, would the community had been approving of their ideas?
In a way that makes me feel pretty dirty, and in this specific case, I think I might *gulp* agree with Ben Shapiro (or at least, mirror one of his arguments). The only point in letting Nazis speak is to be able to humiliate them. The only point in allowing them to march is to follow them with a sousaphone.

But because humiliating Nazis doesn't actually work to prevent more Nazis from showing up, then from an utilitarian standpoint, just don't let them talk at all.

And, yes, letting them march and speak unopposed is de facto condoning their speech. In doing that, you're allowing your town to become a platform for the spread of their speech, both at the expense of vulnerable members of your community who might get swayed and for the benefit of out-of-community people who might have come to see the show/hear the speech. What have your noble principles gained you, your community and your own ideas ?

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When you refuse to feed a troll are you approving of what they say?
Me ? No. When the mods let them troll, and keep letting them troll however ? Different story, innit ? Hell, I've tried recently to both refuse to engage someone speaking in bad faith yet make said refusal explicit and got modslapped for my sins. The bad faith arguer didn't. And keeps doing it.

Last edited by Kobal2; 11-30-2019 at 04:57 PM.
  #255  
Old 11-30-2019, 06:42 PM
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There's a large difference between making accusations of sexual misconduct in a Senate confirmation hearing, and making accusations of lying on a message board, in terms of real life consequences.
  #256  
Old 11-30-2019, 07:02 PM
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But that's the thing ! It can be taken to be. Or seem to be. As the French saying goes, "he who says nothing, consents".
Actually, I believe that is taken from an old Klingon proverb.
  #257  
Old 11-30-2019, 07:15 PM
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Actually, I believe that is taken from an old Klingon proverb.
Yeah but we made it jazz, man.

(still, point taken )
  #258  
Old 11-30-2019, 08:42 PM
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Thanks. Did that.

I'd like to invite all y'all to click on the button that shows who has posted and how many times. I am not 100% on everyone's demographics, but I am pretty sure I am the only woman who has made substantial contributions to this thread. Mr. Dibble is the only person of color. Is that because they are happy with the statusbquo, because they don't see the point of even trying, or because they are gone?
What do you mean by "substantial contributions"? Are you referring to quantity or quality? And how are you determining whether posters are women or people of color? I've posted here. I've also deleted posts I thought about making because I knew all too well how they'd be either ignored or attacked, and I'm tired of both. The real tipping point came awhile back when someone said my views as a sexual assault survivor weren't to be considered because my experience must have biased me.
  #259  
Old 11-30-2019, 09:24 PM
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I meant substantial contributions TO THIS THREAD, as measured by number of posts. In this thread, I am pretty sure I am the only woman in the top ten. This isn't an insult to women . . My point is that most women don't even bother with these discussions because they've been driven off, because they know they aren't heard. That the damage to the board is real.

As for how I know, most of that top ten has been posting 10-15 years. At this point, we all oughta know each other's shoe sizes and zodiac signs.
  #260  
Old 11-30-2019, 10:46 PM
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Moderator Note

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But yeah, this board is largely cishet white dudes jerking each other off.
Let's try to avoid sexual locker-room style comments against either sex. If you feel a need to make comments like this, do it in the Pit.

Also, treat others with respect in this forum. You can make your point without insulting the majority of SDMB users.
  #261  
Old 11-30-2019, 11:36 PM
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I probably should have at least sourced that quip, I was referencing Charles Mills' statement in 1994's "Non-Cartesian Sums: Philosophy and the African-American Experience", from the journal "Teaching Philosophy" (one of the largest Philosophy Journals). It summed up his frustration at the white philosophers preaching so-called "universal human rights" without understanding or truly elevating and appreciating black perspectives, and especially at white philosophers throughout history who would preach these things and then turn around and say blatantly racist things:

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Thus there will be a feeling, not to put too fine a point on it, that when you get right down to it, the peculiar features of the African-American experience—racial slavery, with its link between biological phenotype and social subordination, and chronologically located in the modern epoch, ironically coincident with the emergence of liberalism’s proclamation of universal human equality—will be no part of the experience represented in the abstractions of the European or Euro-American philosopher.

And those who have grown up in such a universe, asked to pretend that they are living in the other, will be cynically knowing, exchanging glances which signify “There the white folks go again.” They know that what is in the books is largely mythical as a general statement of principles, that it was never intended to be applicable to them in the first place, but that,as part of the routine, within the structure of power relations, one has to pretend that it does.

Thus there will be a feeling, not to put too fine a point on it, that when you get right down to it, a lot of philosophy is just white guys jerking off…A lot of moral philosophy will then seem to be based on pretense, the claim that these were the principles that people strove to uphold, when in fact the real principles were the racially exclusivist ones.
I understand the mod note, but this is in itself part of what I'm talking about. Marginalized people can't express frustration at the state of affairs because if we say something angry that goes the slightest bit off color because we feel we're not being heard, then we get policed, whereas if the usual suspects "civilly" say heinous things about us we get told to use it as a "teaching moment" (so long as we don't get frustrated with them and say a mean thing while doing so!). I at the very least reject the notion it's a "locker room comment". It's deliberately provocative, sure, but locker room comments are generally more about... well... actual sex not mental masturbation which I've seen both referred to and not modded here before. Hell, Kobal did it a few posts before me (sorry, don't want to throw you under the bus):

Quote:
On the other hand, at the end of the refining process I can't come until my opponent reluctantly concedes that I might have some semblance of a point .

Last edited by Jragon; 11-30-2019 at 11:37 PM.
  #262  
Old 11-30-2019, 11:56 PM
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I meant substantial contributions TO THIS THREAD, as measured by number of posts. In this thread, I am pretty sure I am the only woman in the top ten. This isn't an insult to women . . My point is that most women don't even bother with these discussions because they've been driven off, because they know they aren't heard. That the damage to the board is real.

As for how I know, most of that top ten has been posting 10-15 years. At this point, we all oughta know each other's shoe sizes and zodiac signs.
I, too, meant contributions to this thread. I knew you didn't mean to insult women. I've read too many of your posts to think that. And my reasons for not posting more are exactly as you state. I get it that you know the posters who've been here for 10-15 years very, very well. Not all of us go back that far.
  #263  
Old 12-01-2019, 10:07 AM
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(sorry, don't want to throw you under the bus):
Throw away, preach it. That bus ain't got shit on me.







(actually it kinda does, but when do I ever get to Denzel up ?!)
  #264  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:07 PM
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It's the "number of replies" column. The numbers are got links.
20 years here and I never knew that. Thanks!
  #265  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:16 PM
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Allowing something very much is approving it (but I agree, is not endorsing it)
If a crime occurs but the victim doesnt want report it to the authorities but does tell their friends and posts about the event (vaguely) , does that mean FB, the friends, society, and the victim all "approved it"?


if you didnt report the post, then the staff didnt allow it. How are the staff to know it happens if not reported?
  #266  
Old 12-01-2019, 07:26 PM
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You folk are hilarious.

I don't know what my registration date is, but I've been reading the SD for 20 years. I've bought memberships for myself and others a number of times.
I've never posted much, but beyond posting, my browsing of the SD has dropped precipitously in recent years.

This is 100% due to, and emblematic of, being given a problem statement of "We're losing members overall, and we're losing the handful of 'good' conservatives we had, and are becoming an echo chamber / ideological monoculture," you guys are collectively arriving at "The only solution is more thought policing and much stricter limitations of what can be discussed here! And mods need to be a LOT more active, and looser with the banhammer!"

Yeah, that'll diversify this place *right* up.

In real life I describe my (US) politics as "I think we should invite Canada to invade and establish a real government here." I bet we agree overall on nearly every substantive political position.

Yet I feel like you folk are so far to the left of me and so steeped in the culture of victimhood and needing "safe spaces" and decrying anyone that disagrees with you on any point as moral monsters that there's no point even reading most SD posts any more.

But good luck with the "increasing thought policing and bans" thing, I think that'll turn out great! Maybe I'll hear about the Straight Dope finally closing down from one of the other, still interesting places on the internet I read.
  #267  
Old 12-01-2019, 07:53 PM
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Once the moderators enforce the rules for liberals, you will see better behavior in the conservatives.

I have yet to see a single person banned for mocking Trump's penis or body or appearance. You can bet if anyone wrote anything remotely similar about Clinton or Obama they would be out in a heartbeat.

Faux news was funny the first thousand times but I have yet to see a moderator admonish anyone for using the term when I am certain anyone using the term Washington Compost would get a waring.
  #268  
Old 12-01-2019, 07:56 PM
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This is 100% due to, and emblematic of, being given a problem statement of "We're losing members overall, and we're losing the handful of 'good' conservatives we had, and are becoming an echo chamber / ideological monoculture," you guys are collectively arriving at "The only solution is more thought policing and much stricter limitations of what can be discussed here! And mods need to be a LOT more active, and looser with the banhammer!"

Yeah, that'll diversify this place *right* up.
Why do you value conservative voices more than (social) minority ones?

Quote:
In real life I describe my (US) politics as "I think we should invite Canada to invade and establish a real government here." I bet we agree overall on nearly every substantive political position.
Ah yes, the country that was still force sterilizing indigenous women uh
checks clipboard
carry the two
add 7
divide by 6
3 months ago

Like I ain't gonna say Canada isn't better than the US as least they have uh... healthcare and not Donald Trump in charge but I don't think you're as left as you think you are if your politics are "literally just Canada."

But then I'm ancom so

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I have yet to see a single person banned for mocking Trump's penis or body or appearance. You can bet if anyone wrote anything remotely similar about Clinton or Obama they would be out in a heartbeat.
Yes, the moderators should enforce body shaming even against people who "deserve it" like Trump because it's not body positivity if it's applied unevenly, it's just marking acceptable targets for body-based bigotry. The ableism too. Also the eugenics talk about letting southerners rot for being intellectually inferior.

Last edited by Jragon; 12-01-2019 at 07:58 PM.
  #269  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:27 PM
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Once the moderators enforce the rules for liberals, you will see better behavior in the conservatives.

I have yet to see a single person banned for mocking Trump's penis or body or appearance. You can bet if anyone wrote anything remotely similar about Clinton or Obama they would be out in a heartbeat.
Really ? Have any conservative posters been banned for mocking a Democratic public official ? Any official ?

(and hell, Obama made fun of his own ears on numerous occasions...)
  #270  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:35 PM
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...

I have yet to see a single person banned for mocking Trump's penis or body or appearance. You can bet if anyone wrote anything remotely similar about Clinton or Obama they would be out in a heartbeat.....
Some vicious things were said about Hillary- "harpy", should be in prison, etc.

However, Public figures are just that- Public figures. They put themselves out there, potshots are expected.
  #271  
Old 12-01-2019, 10:22 PM
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https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-07

I don't necessarily disagree. And finding a way to balance the above cartoon with an interest in discussion is what I'm current working on.

Please take any direct ideas - no discussion, just ideas - to the thread in GD that I've stickied. That's where I'll be going through looking for ideas that can facilitate where I'm trying to get us to.
So maybe make a separate forum where you stick all the extremist nutbars and let them rant at each other, and the rest of us can just discuss everything like mature adults?

(Sort of like the Giraffe Box, only it's not quite an area for punishment, per se?)
  #272  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:01 PM
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Once the moderators enforce the rules for liberals, you will see better behavior in the conservatives.

I have yet to see a single person banned for mocking Trump's penis or body or appearance. You can bet if anyone wrote anything remotely similar about Clinton or Obama they would be out in a heartbeat.

Faux news was funny the first thousand times but I have yet to see a moderator admonish anyone for using the term when I am certain anyone using the term Washington Compost would get a waring.
Do you know what is more lame than "They do it to!!"?
SPOILER:
"In my imagination they would do it too!!"
  #273  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:03 PM
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That would not be the worst idea we could implement.
  #274  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:07 PM
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That would not be the worst idea we could implement.
Except for all the threads in ATMB decrying almost every move made.
  #275  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:33 PM
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That would not be the worst idea we could implement.
Ah, so of all the things to take from this thread, the one thing mods have advocated actually modding is

1. Something that could effectively be moderated by a bot that searches for naughty phrases like "ugly" or "small dick"

2. Was motivated by accusations that conservatives are, in fact, the ones really being targeted

I even agreed with modding body shaming comments regardless of target, because I truly believe it's not allyship if you simply designate acceptable targets (e.g. "trans friendly" people who make fun of conservative trans women for being trans). But if that's the only thing the moderation takes from this discussion I actually give up.

Last edited by Jragon; 12-01-2019 at 11:33 PM.
  #276  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:00 AM
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Except for all the threads in ATMB decrying almost every move made.
Box anyone who decries a boxing.

No, seriously, only an problem child would fight to keep another problem child's voice from being taken away from being able to bother the masses. By boxing them the two of them could live happily in their little problem child bubble where they would always agree with each other.
  #277  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:04 AM
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Ah, so of all the things to take from this thread, the one thing mods have advocated actually modding is

1. Something that could effectively be moderated by a bot that searches for naughty phrases like "ugly" or "small dick"

2. Was motivated by accusations that conservatives are, in fact, the ones really being targeted

I even agreed with modding body shaming comments regardless of target, because I truly believe it's not allyship if you simply designate acceptable targets (e.g. "trans friendly" people who make fun of conservative trans women for being trans). But if that's the only thing the moderation takes from this discussion I actually give up.
I thought you were replying to the quote chain immediately above you, not the boxing one quoting you, sorry.

Last edited by Jragon; 12-02-2019 at 12:04 AM.
  #278  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:08 AM
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If a crime occurs but the victim doesnt want report it to the authorities but does tell their friends and posts about the event (vaguely) , does that mean FB, the friends, society, and the victim all "approved it"?
The victim is the only one who gets to decide, that's not the same as approval (especially not in a victim-blaming culture). Here, you get modded whether the victim wants you to be or not - as many ATMB threads can attest to.
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if you didnt report the post, then the staff didnt allow it. How are the staff to know it happens if not reported?
You're assuming it wasn't reported, but anyway, I'm pretty sure they're aware of it now. And people get modded for things mods see that weren't reported. Reporting isn't necessary for moderation to exist.

But that's irrelevant.

I know I certainly didn't report it because I already knew it wouldn't get modded.

Because the mods have made it painfully clear by direct statements that if you're polite, you can say what you like about African intellectual inferiority in GD. It would be no different in the Pit.

So when I say it's sanctioned, that's because the moderation staff have outright told me it is.

Reporting it would be like reporting Shodan's sig - something that by his own admission sometimes mean "fuck you", they have explicitly said they allow. Reporting it would be a waste of effort. Same-same with polite phrasings of "Blacks are congenitally dumber"

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-02-2019 at 12:11 AM.
  #279  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:32 AM
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...

I know I certainly didn't report it because I already knew it wouldn't get modded.

Because the mods have made it painfully clear by direct statements that if you're polite, you can say what you like about African intellectual inferiority in GD. It would be no different in the Pit.
...

"I didn't bother to report it to the police, as i knew they wouldn't do anything."

In GD? Since when? That's been a long time. In the Pit, yes, but I am agreeing, lets get rid of the Pit.

Well, if it is blatant, and reported, they should do something.
  #280  
Old 12-02-2019, 03:33 AM
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"I didn't bother to report it to the police, as i knew they wouldn't do anything."
Yes, you are accurately describing

a) why many rapes aren't reported
b) why many POC would not go to the cops for certain crimes, either

I fail to see why this seems surprising enough that you haz a sad about it.
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In GD? Since when?
As long as I've been here. There are plenty of ATMB threads about it.
  #281  
Old 12-02-2019, 10:54 AM
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Reporting it would be like reporting Shodan's sig - something that by his own admission sometimes mean "fuck you", they have explicitly said they allow. Reporting it would be a waste of effort. Same-same with polite phrasings of "Blacks are congenitally dumber"
Things like "the races should be kept separate and preserved for their... uniqueness" too, apparently. That’s a perfectly fine idea to advance on this board.

ETA: The example I have in mind is in IMHO, not GD, to be fair. Not sure if that makes allowing it to stand there as opposed to GD makes it better or worse.

Last edited by ASL v2.0; 12-02-2019 at 10:56 AM.
  #282  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:30 AM
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20 years here and I never knew that. Thanks!
Now that you know, you'll be able to experience the frustration of not easily accessing it when following links to old threads.
  #283  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:14 PM
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Once the moderators enforce the rules for liberals, you will see better behavior in the conservatives.

I have yet to see a single person banned for mocking Trump's penis or body or appearance. You can bet if anyone wrote anything remotely similar about Clinton or Obama they would be out in a heartbeat.

Faux news was funny the first thousand times but I have yet to see a moderator admonish anyone for using the term when I am certain anyone using the term Washington Compost would get a waring.
Forgot about 2016, did we? How about

Are reports of Hillary Clinton throwing tantrums credible?

The arrogance of the left-wing

This Isn't Hillary Clinton's Fault. Where's Obama?

I Pit Hillary Clinton

"We told you so!" (Anti-Clinton Rant)


Clinton is a war criminal and Obama also, and a murderer to boot.
  #284  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:19 PM
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......
As long as I've been here. There are plenty of ATMB threads about it.
Please give a link to the most recent GD threads. Thank you.
  #285  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:51 PM
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So maybe make a separate forum where you stick all the extremist nutbars and let them rant at each other, and the rest of us can just discuss everything like mature adults?

(Sort of like the Giraffe Box, only it's not quite an area for punishment, per se?)
We have the pit for that. The two debate forums have clear rules that aren’t that hard to follow.
  #286  
Old 12-02-2019, 01:03 PM
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Really ? Have any conservative posters been banned for mocking a Democratic public official ? Any official ?

(and hell, Obama made fun of his own ears on numerous occasions...)
Yes (Kind of)

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Originally Posted by Hampshire View Post
Disagree. I think anytime a female makes her voice heard people immediately label her a Harpy. Pelosi.. harpy, Fiorina.. harpy, Warren.. harpy. Clinton to me is far from "shrill". It's just a female voice. Get over it.
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If you are directing that at me, then that is quite offensive. It reminds me of 2008 when people wanted to label me as a racist because Obama is black and I must not think Obama will be a good President for racial reasons. You know even though I am a Republican I don't necessarily pass judgements on race in 2008 nor do I pass judgement based on gender in 2016.

It has nothing to do with "a female mak[ing] her voice heard" so go ahead and shove the accusation of sexism up your ass where it belongs. It is an attack on one specific woman whose voice gets shrill when she is building up the energy in her speech so she sounds like a harpy and it makes THAT SPECIFIC WOMAN displeasing to listen to.

So don't generalize a statement I make about one specific woman into an accusation of generalized sexism again.
I was warned for "Being a jerk" (Not) Suprisingly the "Get over it" was not warned.

Given the modding at the time my warning was perhaps deserved but not one of the post that accused me of being sexist because I didn't like Clinton was warned. Why not?
  #287  
Old 12-02-2019, 01:24 PM
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Dude, you said "shove [it] up your ass." You think that's the same level as "get over it"?
  #288  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:34 PM
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Dude, you said "shove [it] up your ass." You think that's the same level as "get over it"?
What's lost is in that thread the repeated accusations that were thrown at me of being sexist* because she sounds like a harpy. I had had enough and none of the mods did anything about the posts I reported. So the rule is you can accuse a person of being sexist but being offended by that accusation and responding accordingly is warnable.

I nNever said it was at the same level. But isn't it being a jerk to tell someone to get over it when they say they don't like the sound of someone's voice? Isn't it being a jerk when someone says "I don't like this candidate who is black/female" when they respond "You're a racist/sexist"?



* And guess what, none of those people made any mention of my posts about how women suffer from the "likability penalty" in a later thread.

Last edited by Saint Cad; 12-02-2019 at 02:35 PM.
  #289  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:53 PM
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Please give a link to the most recent GD threads. Thank you.
Please balance a ball on your nose and clap your flippers. Thank you in advance.
  #290  
Old 12-02-2019, 03:02 PM
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What's lost is in that thread the repeated accusations that were thrown at me of being sexist* because she sounds like a harpy. I had had enough and none of the mods did anything about the posts I reported. So the rule is you can accuse a person of being sexist but being offended by that accusation and responding accordingly is warnable.

I nNever said it was at the same level. But isn't it being a jerk to tell someone to get over it when they say they don't like the sound of someone's voice? Isn't it being a jerk when someone says "I don't like this candidate who is black/female" when they respond "You're a racist/sexist"?



* And guess what, none of those people made any mention of my posts about how women suffer from the "likability penalty" in a later thread.
"Harpy" IS sexist. You don't get a punch card where you get to say a certain number of sexist things about a certain number of women before you get called a sexist. Use the "n-word", you're racist. Use a word that's hundreds of years old, you're sexist.

You're on the internet. If you're older than, you're pretending or you're just hostile to looking up ANYTHING.

Like "harpy." https://www.ferris.edu/moso/objectif...mals/index.htm
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They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
  #291  
Old 12-02-2019, 03:20 PM
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Yes (Kind of)
I was warned for "Being a jerk" (Not) Suprisingly the "Get over it" was not warned.
So, not for criticizing Clinton. Also, you're still here, thereby demonstrably not "out within a heartbeat" as LAZombie claimed.

Anything else ? Or can we conclusively file this under Shit_That_Doesn't_Happen.txt ?
  #292  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:04 PM
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Now that you know, you'll be able to experience the frustration of not easily accessing it when following links to old threads.
You can take this URL:
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=885910
and replace that last number (after the "t=") with the thread ID. If you don't know the thread ID, you can usually find it by looking at the "Previous Thread" and "Next Thread" buttons at the bottom of the page. If you are replying to a thread, the thread ID is at the end of the hyperlink near the top right, the one that reads the thread's name, right under "Log Out".

Frustrating perhaps, but no more frustrating than typing out the BBCode for any other link.

~Max
  #293  
Old 12-02-2019, 07:35 PM
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The only role the professor plays is to tell the class "I will kick out anyone who raises their voice". After a bit the conversation shifts--but the next day, the student makes the same claim. Again, people get upset. Several go to the professor after class. They ask him to shut it down. He says "It's not my place to decide if he's right or not. As long as he doesn't raise his voice, he can say whatever he wants in my classroom. I hope you guys can change his mind".
For what it's worth, I'm on the professor's side in this hypothetical. Appealing to the negative consequences that you write into the hypothetical is not enough to convince me that the professor is in the wrong in the general case.

~Max
  #294  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:06 PM
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Please balance a ball on your nose and clap your flippers. Thank you in advance.
If you want to be snippy, take it to the Pit.
  #295  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:23 PM
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What's lost is in that thread the repeated accusations that were thrown at me of being sexist* because she sounds like a harpy.
Seriously? You're still clinging to this "I was talking about her voice" excuse?

As I explained to you at the time, "harpy" does not mean "person with an irritating voice." It is a gender-specific insult meaning "a shrewish woman" (Merriam-Webster), "A grasping, unpleasant woman" (Oxford), and "a scolding, nagging, bad-tempered woman" (Dictionary.com).

You were justifiably called on the carpet for repeatedly using a sexist insult, and you tried to wriggle out of it by inventing your own definition of "harpy." And apparently you're still butthurt over it. Jesus.
  #296  
Old 12-02-2019, 09:27 PM
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For what it's worth, I'm on the professor's side in this hypothetical. Appealing to the negative consequences that you write into the hypothetical is not enough to convince me that the professor is in the wrong in the general case.
Well, that is unsurprising but it is the status quo here already. I know you love debating and try to keep emotion out but would you really be disappointed if we no longer debated whether blacks are intellectually inferior around here anymore?
  #297  
Old 12-02-2019, 10:10 PM
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Seriously? You're still clinging to this "I was talking about her voice" excuse?

As I explained to you at the time, "harpy" does not mean "person with an irritating voice." It is a gender-specific insult meaning "a shrewish woman" (Merriam-Webster), "A grasping, unpleasant woman" (Oxford), and "a scolding, nagging, bad-tempered woman" (Dictionary.com).

You were justifiably called on the carpet for repeatedly using a sexist insult, and you tried to wriggle out of it by inventing your own definition of "harpy." And apparently you're still butthurt over it. Jesus.
One criticism of Hillary you’d have heard from the right (especially during her presidential runs) is that she’s “shrill”. That is sometimes referred to as being sexist, see below.
https://time.com/4268325/history-calling-women-shrill/
My guess is that Saint Cad was remembering that controversy and defending it (since “shrill” absolutely references a person’s voice) despite the fact that the word he used (harpy) is a completely different and unrelated term.

Just my WAG here.
  #298  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:18 PM
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Well, that is unsurprising but it is the status quo here already. I know you love debating and try to keep emotion out but would you really be disappointed if we no longer debated whether blacks are intellectually inferior around here anymore?
Part of being conservative is having a tendency to keep the status quo. (the "conserve" part?)

Let me tell you a little story. Once upon a time, at the turn of the century, I thought that girls were inferior creatures. They couldn't be cool, they couldn't be smart, they couldn't be fun like us boys. I didn't tell anybody, or think to do so, this was self-evident to me. I was mean to girls. Apparently I would cut up their hair or spit on them, etc. One summer I became friends with this really cool guy (named "Brett" I think) at one of the lovely beaches here. We did like, sandcastles and shell collecting, made shark-tooth necklaces, Florida stuff. About three hours into our friendship we went into the water. He took off his shirt, and to my astonishment was wearing a bikini. "Why are you wearing a bikini like a girl?" "I am a girl. Is that a problem, Max?"

Nervous laugh. Worldview shattered. I was so ashamed, and still am, to this day.

I cannot stress how important that lesson was and is to me as a person. It is so incredibly easy for me to understand how a person might grow up and never realize how wrong they are about other people.

I guess it's not a perfect example, but life doesn't always give me perfect examples to build on. I've noticed that people project themselves upon others when using the internet. You can see it happen in this very thread. The internet presents a great opportunity to reach all of those ignorant people who may never listen to your words in real life, but do so here. I want this to be a place of learning, like that beach was for me nearly two decades ago.

I want someone - me, you, whoever - to come here, bring their bigotry, their ignorance, have their world shattered, be ashamed, and then become a better person for it. That's my vision of fighting ignorance.

~Max
  #299  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:07 AM
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With all due respect, that sounds like an early childhood memory. We get adult bigots here. They aren't going to have your soft focus gentle awakening. You aren't going to pile some words together that will remotely equal the impact this story had on you as a child. Never.
  #300  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:49 AM
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With all due respect, that sounds like an early childhood memory. We get adult bigots here. They aren't going to have your soft focus gentle awakening. You aren't going to pile some words together that will remotely equal the impact this story had on you as a child. Never.
It was a childhood memory. Epiphany moments are not limited to one's childhood. I don't know how it works as one grows older, but during my eight or nine months on these boards I have shifted to a different foundation for my personal moral system. I also flipped from entertaining the possibility of physicalism/epiphenomenalism to physicalism/substance-dualism. As a direct result of participating in debates, here. There were moments where I just realized that I was wrong, and sometimes that someone else was right.

You have to realize that some of these people, on the alt-right or whatever you want to call it, they are young dudes like me. It would have been this easy for me to be one of them. That was the point of my story. I've met some of them online and in person. They aren't all stupid and they aren't all rotten to the core. It's not too late to talk sense into them.

Have you read Plato? Maybe bigots won't let us speak back in the cave, but if someone should happen to stumble halfway into the light, covering his eyes with his hands, shouldn't we be there to say, "lift your hands and open your eyes"? Lest he fall back inside and convince his compatriots that there is nothing to see out here.

~Max
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