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  #51  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:15 PM
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Try Brazilian jiu jitsu, Machinaforce.

Google BJJ academies in your area, pick whichever has the best reputation, and sign up for a (usually totally free!) first week of classes.

Yes, yes, yes, this is wildly off-topic - but that's the point. I think you need something else than (your idea of) Buddhism to occupy your mind for a little while. BJJ will do that.
It wouldn't. If video games don't do it then nothing will. It's pretty damn hard to shake their claim that the world is an illusion.
  #52  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:41 PM
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It wouldn't. If video games don't do it then nothing will. It's pretty damn hard to shake their claim that the world is an illusion.
I dunno, man, it's jiu jitsu. Enough shots to the head and you won't worry about anything.
  #53  
Old 06-13-2019, 07:45 PM
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Trust me when I say I have done everything to forget.

But hearing them say the world is an illusion and to not treat it as real makes me feel like anything that I do is worthless and pointless.

Calling the body "foam on a wave, a shadow of a shadow" also doesn't help either.
  #54  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:01 PM
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I mean this gently, but you sound less like a person with a Buddhism problem and more like a person who struggles with obsessions.
  #55  
Old 06-14-2019, 05:23 AM
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I mean this gently, but you sound less like a person with a Buddhism problem and more like a person who struggles with obsessions.
This has been pointed out to him in at least a dozen other threads.
  #56  
Old 06-14-2019, 07:10 AM
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It wouldn't.
And you know this how?

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If video games don't do it then nothing will.
There are, uh, some pretty major differences between video games and jiu jitsu. Unlike the former, the latter involves strenuous physical activity, which - long story short - tends to make people feel good. You'll also be meeting people, which can also feel good. What's more, you'll be touching people (and people will be touching you), which also tends to make folks feel good.

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I dunno, man, it's jiu jitsu. Enough shots to the head and you won't worry about anything.


I know you're kidding but just to be clear - there's no striking in jiu jitsu, only grappling. "Weaponized hugging." So, no risk of brain damage! That's good, right, Machinaforce?

Last edited by Steken; 06-14-2019 at 07:11 AM.
  #57  
Old 06-14-2019, 01:24 PM
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And you know this how?



There are, uh, some pretty major differences between video games and jiu jitsu. Unlike the former, the latter involves strenuous physical activity, which - long story short - tends to make people feel good. You'll also be meeting people, which can also feel good. What's more, you'll be touching people (and people will be touching you), which also tends to make folks feel good.





I know you're kidding but just to be clear - there's no striking in jiu jitsu, only grappling. "Weaponized hugging." So, no risk of brain damage! That's good, right, Machinaforce?
I don't think you understand that nothing makes this go away because I don't have an answer that proves it wrong so it sticks in my mind. The world is an illusion, the body is an illusion, that what you feel from art is just your imagination and not really a connection with what is in the work. It's saying that my life is a lie, nothing makes me forget that.
  #58  
Old 06-14-2019, 04:14 PM
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So, if nothing will change any of this, what is it you’re hoping to gain from repeatedly telling us about how this tortures you?

You shoot down every suggestion, every attempt to help, and any well proven actions that might ease your misery. You’re not really interested in learning the [I]actual [I] concepts, only your specific and unrelated personal interpretation. You’re not interested in participating in a community or having a teacher, the two cornerstones of actual Buddhist instruction/transmission!

What is it you’re looking for from us?

(The one thing that shines through, it seems to me anyway, is that you ARE, ironically, living in a hell you’ve created with your mind. )
  #59  
Old 06-14-2019, 04:25 PM
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I don't think you understand that nothing makes this go away because I don't have an answer that proves it wrong so it sticks in my mind. The world is an illusion, the body is an illusion, that what you feel from art is just your imagination and not really a connection with what is in the work. It's saying that my life is a lie, nothing makes me forget that.
I personally can think of a couple of possible ways reality being an illusion could be a problem: 'if reality is an illusion it has no value,' and 'if reality is an illusion it could vanish at any time'. And neither of these criticisms stands up to scrutiny: value exists in the eye of the beholder, and you clearly value observed reality; and reality's persistence has precedent, and even if reality is real its endurance isn't ensured anyway, so there's no difference there anyway.

Honestly, my real reaction to "life is an illusion" is less "no it isn't" and more "so what if it is?".
  #60  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:07 AM
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So, if nothing will change any of this, what is it you’re hoping to gain from repeatedly telling us about how this tortures you?

You shoot down every suggestion, every attempt to help, and any well proven actions that might ease your misery. You’re not really interested in learning the [I]actual [I] concepts, only your specific and unrelated personal interpretation. You’re not interested in participating in a community or having a teacher, the two cornerstones of actual Buddhist instruction/transmission!

What is it you’re looking for from us?

(The one thing that shines through, it seems to me anyway, is that you ARE, ironically, living in a hell you’ve created with your mind. )
Because so far the "proven" actions you speak of don't work because they all end up triggering this stuff again. Now art and music don't provide help since the feeling I get from them is fabricated, I am not connection to anything outside of me just making things up in my mind.

I told you that I cannot find a solution to the stuff because I can't prove it wrong, which is the way that would help me out. But I can't find a solution to it, especially when their responses seem so well thought out like:

Quote:
"However, this is still something important to consider. Buddhism is very much so a religion, rather than a simple philosophy. There are many great secular purposes that can be derived from buddhism- Psychology for example has recently found a ton of copacetic values within much of buddhist practise, or is arriving at what buddhism has been doing for centuries. Still, buddhism requires a good bit of practise and study, and it is more than a philosophy because it fulfills a spiritual role, soteriology and supernatural concepts aside buddhism is a praxis by which we arrive at abnegation of ego-differentiated self. It is a vehicle for mystic experiences as any long-term buddhist practioner will assure you. The great trouble here is what has been the biggest weakness of buddhism- It is a monastic faith at it's heart. This means that among the laity a sort of "low" religion has emerged- You do things that make a good buddhist just because that's what you do. You give food to monks and lamas, you say a few prayers, and that's that. But these trappings and material clingings all have a purpose as a means of engaging the mind in certain activities. Take the tibetan prayer wheel for instance: On the surface you turn it and that gives you good merit, which means a better birth. But deeper than that, the wheel is a praxis by which you engage in the mental experience of having prayed without the activity of prayer, it is useful for not only illustrating the divide between participation and agency, but as well encourages that ego-death state by means of a tacit participation in compassion practise.

The faith is built entirely around the idea that all that we percieve, and experience is mediated, often greatly, by language and learned or assumed concepts that have become a deep part of out intellectual processes: Cognition and Emotion. The mystic attainment in buddhism is that which allows one to enter a psychological state of consciousness capable of affording participation in an unmediated world. The mediated world, it is argued, leads to cognitive and emotive processes that are not ultimately desireable reactions to the stimuli of the world. The question of these religious trappings in relation to attaining this psychological ego-death is that many of means we might use to reach this unmediated state are forms and methods that are themselves mediators of the world. The low religious, or lay, application of this high religious pursuit becomes the application of those means which are ding-fur-sich: sometimes linguistic means like koan, sometimes cognitive ablations like mantra recitation, sometimes tactile methods of conditioning such as mala. It is generally acknowledge that the most efficient vehicle for attaining this kind of ego-death in any permanence is still that of meditation- the conditioning of the mind to guide it towards conditioning ego-death as a default measure to ensure a finality in the assumption of that mental-psychological state. However those means which function as ding-fur-sich do so and are done with the understanding that their practise and encouragement conditions the end-goal of nonmediated participation. Often buddhism avoids this kind of deep analytical discourse because it is not usually itself one of those means which encourages those conditions, being a linguistic and conceptual construction of dialectic that is reliant upon the assumption of those learned concepts that lead to mediated, rather than unmediated, participation. The dialectic becomes that which reifies mediative-mind."
  #61  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:33 AM
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Hmmm... disproving a philosophy that's been around for 2500 years and has had billions of followers shouldn't be that hard!

Last edited by lingyi; 06-15-2019 at 12:35 AM.
  #62  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:41 AM
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Yeah, that’s pretty non responsive. We can see you’re obsessed.

Again, what is it you’re hoping to get from sharing your obsession with the board? You want no part of anything that’s been sincerely suggested, won’t hear of a teacher or community, the well proven avenue to the knowledge/clarity you claim to seek, and have an ‘individual’ interpretation of the concepts and won’t hear any other.

Your ‘unique’ interpretation, and commitment to it, self evidently leave zero room for anyone to unravel the mystery you’ve manufactured for yourself.

So, what is it you are looking for, exactly?
  #63  
Old 06-15-2019, 01:07 AM
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He's getting exactly has the wants. People paying attention to his inane posts. Oops...just feed that obsession!
  #64  
Old 06-16-2019, 12:03 AM
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Yeah, that’s pretty non responsive. We can see you’re obsessed.

Again, what is it you’re hoping to get from sharing your obsession with the board? You want no part of anything that’s been sincerely suggested, won’t hear of a teacher or community, the well proven avenue to the knowledge/clarity you claim to seek, and have an ‘individual’ interpretation of the concepts and won’t hear any other.

Your ‘unique’ interpretation, and commitment to it, self evidently leave zero room for anyone to unravel the mystery you’ve manufactured for yourself.

So, what is it you are looking for, exactly?
I'm looking for an answer that finds fault in what they are saying. Anything that has been suggested has been tried and failed because I don't have an answer that finds fault with the claims put forth by them. You say proven but my experience has said FAILED.
  #65  
Old 06-16-2019, 01:23 AM
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I'm looking for an answer that finds fault in what they are saying. Anything that has been suggested has been tried and failed because I don't have an answer that finds fault with the claims put forth by them. You say proven but my experience has said FAILED.
Perhaps the tool you are missing if your goal is to find fault is a mirror?
  #66  
Old 06-16-2019, 05:44 AM
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The OP is caught in samsara with his response to any answer
  #67  
Old 06-16-2019, 05:46 AM
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Trust me when I say I have done everything to forget.

But hearing them say the world is an illusion and to not treat it as real makes me feel like anything that I do is worthless and pointless.
I see no reason to figure they’re right; but, for the sake of argument, let’s go with it for a moment. You say the world being an illusion instead of being real makes you feel like anything you do is worthless and pointless; spell out for me why the world being real would make all of that — uh, worthful and pointful?
  #68  
Old 06-16-2019, 02:15 PM
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I see no reason to figure they’re right; but, for the sake of argument, let’s go with it for a moment. You say the world being an illusion instead of being real makes you feel like anything you do is worthless and pointless; spell out for me why the world being real would make all of that — uh, worthful and pointful?
Because it would be tangible and have an impact. In an illusion nothing matters because it's not real.

The problem I have is that much of what Buddhism says I don't have a response to (like the quoted text that was a huge block that I posted). Because of that it lingers and worms its way into my mind, especially since as the post says that science is arriving and what Buddhism has done for years. It makes it harder to get over it all if science is backing it in a manner of speaking.

People on here talk about doing stuff that has "proven" to work, and I say it has NOT. I have tried many things to get over and forget this stuff but my daily life just triggers the memories all over again, and when I lay to sleep the unresolved questions just flood my mind, then I wake up feeling tired and thinking I have forgotten about it am quickly reminded once again. That's why I want a counter response to their claims because everything else I have tried is just not working.
  #69  
Old 06-16-2019, 03:11 PM
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Because it would be tangible and have an impact. In an illusion nothing matters because it's not real.
Why do you care? Here I am, saying that what you do has a tangible impact on me; I take it that wouldn’t matter to you if I’m not real, but would if I am?

Have I got that right?
  #70  
Old 06-16-2019, 11:26 PM
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Not sure about Buddhism, but one of my favorite quotes ( supposedly by Churchill)goes something like:”success is not final, failure is not fatal: it’s the courage to continue that counts.” Fuck perfection.-that last bit is mine, lol take care friend.
  #71  
Old 06-17-2019, 12:39 PM
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OP, your opinion that the whole of Buddhism can be summed up with "the world is an illusion" doesn't work because it has a much more layered meaning. What they actually mean is the world is a distraction. You trying to keep up with the Joneses and using other people's lifestyles as a measuring stick for how your life should be lived is ruining you. I know, the Western culture is all about appearances, and that's why so many westerners don't get Buddhism.

If you're trying to prove Buddhism is wrong, fine. It doesn't work for those concerned about status or those who want their identities to outshine everybody else's. It requires a change of fundamental thinking on your part, and you obviously don't want to go that route. There are no cut and dry answers to your questions, which you can't tolerate because you feel you didn't need that level of context to live your life. You may as well tell everybody who practices medicine not to bother with all those years of study and expense because we have Web MD.

Bottom line is, if you want to overcome loneliness, you have to go among the people. A simple Buddha quote isn't going to make your despair magically disappear. You have to change yourself instead.
  #72  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:45 PM
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OP, your opinion that the whole of Buddhism can be summed up with "the world is an illusion" doesn't work because it has a much more layered meaning. What they actually mean is the world is a distraction. You trying to keep up with the Joneses and using other people's lifestyles as a measuring stick for how your life should be lived is ruining you. I know, the Western culture is all about appearances, and that's why so many westerners don't get Buddhism.

If you're trying to prove Buddhism is wrong, fine. It doesn't work for those concerned about status or those who want their identities to outshine everybody else's. It requires a change of fundamental thinking on your part, and you obviously don't want to go that route. There are no cut and dry answers to your questions, which you can't tolerate because you feel you didn't need that level of context to live your life. You may as well tell everybody who practices medicine not to bother with all those years of study and expense because we have Web MD.

Bottom line is, if you want to overcome loneliness, you have to go among the people. A simple Buddha quote isn't going to make your despair magically disappear. You have to change yourself instead.
Saying the world is a distraction isn't much better than the world is an illusion. It's essentially saying that things don't matter, which is still another problem I had and still do with Buddhism. You still get those who claim that anything that appears doesn't exist and says that Buddhism says so. Let's not also forget that Buddhism also says that things only exist in your mind, so there's nothing layered about what you speak of.

I don't care about status or outshining people. From middle through high school I never kept up with the Joneses, I just did things I liked because I enjoyed them, not to prove anything. But even so that is NOT what Buddhism says, rather it just calls personal pursuits that don't have to do with enlightenment as pointless and meaningless. So according to Buddhism I am not free to do my own thing if that thing isn't the Dharma. Buddhism IS what's ruining me, not what Buddhism claims is ruining me.

You can't really compare Buddhism to medicine because one is a science while the other is debatable as to whether it is or not.

This has nothing to do with overcoming loneliness, but more with how Buddhism looks at the human condition as a problem to solve rather than something to experience. I am not always lonely, but when I am I don't like to be told it's some disease. Because that's what Buddhism also refers to anger and other "negative" emotions, a disease.

Last edited by Machinaforce; 06-17-2019 at 02:45 PM.
  #73  
Old 06-17-2019, 04:21 PM
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The function of Buddhism is not to keep you, like, totally stoked about the general vibe and stuff. Sorry, dude.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:07 PM
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Because it would be tangible and have an impact. In an illusion nothing matters because it's not real.
Tangible and impactful to who? The reality I observe around me is certainly tangible and impactful to me; isn't it tangible and impactful to you? I mean yes, if you're unable to detect reality via your senses then I agree it shouldn't matter to you. Are you worried about there being some other entity out there, some god or whatever, that can't tange reality? If so, why does their perception matter to you?

Mattering just means that something has an impact on something else in a meaningful way. And the reality I'm experiencing has a big impact on me in a very meaningful way. Doesn't it have an impact on you?
  #75  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:12 PM
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The function of Buddhism is not to keep you, like, totally stoked about the general vibe and stuff. Sorry, dude.
That's kind of my problem with it. It makes it seem like everything else that doesn't follow it is "Wrong".
  #76  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:42 PM
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I know it's to keep Summer safe.
  #77  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:21 PM
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As a spiritual person, who's always encouraging my friends to be more spiritual, to get more in touch with their religious background and faith community and ultimately The Godhead... this is really hard for me to say.

But forget the religious stuff. Buddhism* is not fixing your problems. Which. You. Need. To. Face. Without excuses (like "But the Buddhist principle of Whatever I Just Read means I'm screwed... so I'm giving up.")


*at least the shallow, Philosophical Buffet Table style of "Choose-Your-Own Religious Adventure" is clearly not working for you.
  #78  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:06 AM
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As a spiritual person, who's always encouraging my friends to be more spiritual, to get more in touch with their religious background and faith community and ultimately The Godhead... this is really hard for me to say.

But forget the religious stuff. Buddhism* is not fixing your problems. Which. You. Need. To. Face. Without excuses (like "But the Buddhist principle of Whatever I Just Read means I'm screwed... so I'm giving up.")


*at least the shallow, Philosophical Buffet Table style of "Choose-Your-Own Religious Adventure" is clearly not working for you.
Kind of hard to “just forget” when you are reminded of the “wrongness” and what you do daily.
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:50 AM
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Kind of hard to “just forget” when you are reminded of the “wrongness” and what you do daily.
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:51 PM
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The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves
It's MY fault I can't forget, hardly seems likely.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:05 PM
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It's MY fault I can't forget, hardly seems likely.
Er, who else's fault would it be? (Note that I'm including your brain in the set of things that are "you". Stupid brains.)

Also, I'm still not following why the supposed artificiality of the world matters. Whether the coffee table is fake or not, I can still stub my toe on it, and it still really hurts.
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Old 06-19-2019, 01:55 PM
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Saying the world is a distraction isn't much better than the world is an illusion. It's essentially saying that things don't matter, which is still another problem I had and still do with Buddhism. You still get those who claim that anything that appears doesn't exist and says that Buddhism says so. Let's not also forget that Buddhism also says that things only exist in your mind, so there's nothing layered about what you speak of.

I don't care about status or outshining people. From middle through high school I never kept up with the Joneses, I just did things I liked because I enjoyed them, not to prove anything. But even so that is NOT what Buddhism says, rather it just calls personal pursuits that don't have to do with enlightenment as pointless and meaningless. So according to Buddhism I am not free to do my own thing if that thing isn't the Dharma. Buddhism IS what's ruining me, not what Buddhism claims is ruining me.

You can't really compare Buddhism to medicine because one is a science while the other is debatable as to whether it is or not.

This has nothing to do with overcoming loneliness, but more with how Buddhism looks at the human condition as a problem to solve rather than something to experience. I am not always lonely, but when I am I don't like to be told it's some disease. Because that's what Buddhism also refers to anger and other "negative" emotions, a disease.
Where are you getting that Buddhism says loneliness is a disease? You've come to some bizarre conclusions because you're not experiencing Buddhist teaching. You're just cherry picking all the stuff that has negative meaning to you and amplifying it.

You keep talking about Buddhism ruined you, but you never say how. Did you actually go to a service, or did you just glance at their website? Have you actually discussed anything with Buddhist monks and/or nuns, or did you avoid contact with them? What was this horrible experience that psychically crippled you? I'm thinking you make a lot of shit up.

Where did I compare Buddhism to medicine? I said "You may as well tell everybody who practices medicine not to bother with all those years of study and expense because we have Web MD." That was meant to express the futility you're going through when you cherry-pick a few sentences here and there without exploring context. I keep telling you this isn't cut-and-dry situation and that you have to explore from the ground up, but you don't want to listen.

Now you're moving the goalposts and saying it's not about loneliness. You keep moaning about how Buddhism ruined you and there's no hope. You obviously don't want to change and would rather rot in solipsistic misery. Whatever suggestions we give, you turn into gloom and despair. How's that improving your life?

I've said my piece, and now I bid you a cheese fondue as I remove this thread from my portal.
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Old 06-19-2019, 03:21 PM
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Where are you getting that Buddhism says loneliness is a disease? You've come to some bizarre conclusions because you're not experiencing Buddhist teaching. You're just cherry picking all the stuff that has negative meaning to you and amplifying it.

You keep talking about Buddhism ruined you, but you never say how. Did you actually go to a service, or did you just glance at their website? Have you actually discussed anything with Buddhist monks and/or nuns, or did you avoid contact with them? What was this horrible experience that psychically crippled you? I'm thinking you make a lot of shit up.

Where did I compare Buddhism to medicine? I said "You may as well tell everybody who practices medicine not to bother with all those years of study and expense because we have Web MD." That was meant to express the futility you're going through when you cherry-pick a few sentences here and there without exploring context. I keep telling you this isn't cut-and-dry situation and that you have to explore from the ground up, but you don't want to listen.

Now you're moving the goalposts and saying it's not about loneliness. You keep moaning about how Buddhism ruined you and there's no hope. You obviously don't want to change and would rather rot in solipsistic misery. Whatever suggestions we give, you turn into gloom and despair. How's that improving your life?

I've said my piece, and now I bid you a cheese fondue as I remove this thread from my portal.
I have been showing you how it has ruined my life but you don't seem to want to admit that in essence Buddhism makes anything that goes outside of seeking enlightenment seem pointless and meaningless. I say this having attended such services in the past and speaking to monks. They all say that ultimately the worldly life must be discarded. That worldly pursuits don't bring true peace. It just made me feel worse, and they weren't much help when I asked them about attachment.

You say I cherry pick but I'm not, I'm just showing the "hard parts" of Buddhism that most people gloss over or don't know. It's not just meditation or peace of mind. It's essentially about leaving your whole "World" behind for true realization, and that involves losing things that matter to you.
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:26 PM
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They all say that ultimately the worldly life must be discarded. That worldly pursuits don't bring true peace.
Okay, but: is it true?

You say they say worldly pursuits don’t bring peace; did you ask around? Are there people who are doing, like, ‘worldly pursuits’ stuff, and who sure do seem to have a ‘pretty much at peace’ thing going on — and can you maybe ask them, so, hey, looks like you’ve maybe got a worldly life that you haven’t discarded, but it looks like you have, uh, peace of mind? Kind of a wry and philosophical outlook going on, even as you still seem to be accomplishing stuff in this world of appearances? So, uh, what’s going *on*, there? It’s like you’re acting with *purpose*, but you’re kind of calm and kind of happy and kind of — wise? Am I pronouncing that right?
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:37 PM
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My dear fellow posters:

All of the arguments in this thread have been given befre in previous threads, and none of them, no matter how cogent, have satisfied the OP nor relieved his/her apparent anxiety. Not one. Noting this, many Dopers have urged the OP to get psychiatric help. That has also had no effect.

Perhaps engaging with the OP enables or exacerbates whatever is really going on here. Something to consider, perhaps.

Best wishes to all.
  #86  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:25 PM
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Okay, but: is it true?

You say they say worldly pursuits don’t bring peace; did you ask around? Are there people who are doing, like, ‘worldly pursuits’ stuff, and who sure do seem to have a ‘pretty much at peace’ thing going on — and can you maybe ask them, so, hey, looks like you’ve maybe got a worldly life that you haven’t discarded, but it looks like you have, uh, peace of mind? Kind of a wry and philosophical outlook going on, even as you still seem to be accomplishing stuff in this world of appearances? So, uh, what’s going *on*, there? It’s like you’re acting with *purpose*, but you’re kind of calm and kind of happy and kind of — wise? Am I pronouncing that right?
I'm guessing it's true that plenty of people are just fine without whatever Buddhism posits. I just don't know how some read and research it and just ignore or don't bother with it.

LIke how do they get past stuff like "If we have no desires then we do nothing" to which the response from the monk is "why do we have to do anything"?
  #87  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:31 PM
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I'm guessing it's true that plenty of people are just fine without whatever Buddhism posits. I just don't know how some read and research it and just ignore or don't bother with it.

LIke how do they get past stuff like "If we have no desires then we do nothing" to which the response from the monk is "why do we have to do anything"?
Why jump ahead to that? You say you guess that plenty of people are just fine even without the stuff being posited; do you guess that plenty of people manage that by having no desires, or by having manageable desires?
  #88  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:38 PM
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I'm guessing it's true that plenty of people are just fine without whatever Buddhism posits. I just don't know how some read and research it and just ignore or don't bother with it.
Well, I've read a lot of stuff that you've put out here and my responses/dismissals have generally fallen into one of:

1) That person is clearly an idiot and doesn't know what he's talking about.

2) Even if it were true, what's so bad about that?

3) That dude can do/believe this if he wants to, but there's no reason I should do/believe the same.

4) What was the problem with this, again?

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LIke how do they get past stuff like "If we have no desires then we do nothing" to which the response from the monk is "why do we have to do anything"?
I must be missing some context, because it sounds like the first person is trying to argue in the defense of having desires based on doing things, itself, being good. And that's a really stupid argument for why it's okay to have desires which should be dismantled in much the way the monk is claimed to have done.

The real defense of having desires is, of course, because it feels good to feel good. Axiomatic value based on biological wiring, baby!
  #89  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:29 PM
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I have been showing you how it has ruined my life but you don't seem to want to admit that in essence Buddhism makes anything that goes outside of seeking enlightenment seem pointless and meaningless.
So then why are you trying to become a Buddhist? So you can feel even more "pointless and meaningless"?

Seriously, this is like "Oh, no, I keep reading Nietzsche and sitting through hours of Sam Beckett plays, and for some reason nihilism just isn't cheering me up." Well, quit trying to be a nihilist. Duh.

Look, get professional help, do the work they suggest, but until then...
Stay away from the internet.
  #90  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:59 PM
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LIke how do they get past stuff like "If we have no desires then we do nothing"

By saying "No shit, Dick Tracy?" That is a statment of the bloody fucking obvious.



There are thousands of equally goofy philosophies in the world, and none of them are worth wasting your time on unless you enjoy it. The weird thing is why you are obsessing over this particular one.
  #91  
Old 06-19-2019, 11:11 PM
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My dear fellow posters:

All of the arguments in this thread have been given befre in previous threads, and none of them, no matter how cogent, have satisfied the OP nor relieved his/her apparent anxiety. Not one. Noting this, many Dopers have urged the OP to get psychiatric help. That has also had no effect.

Perhaps engaging with the OP enables or exacerbates whatever is really going on here. Something to consider, perhaps.

Best wishes to all.
+++++++! to THIS!

At one point I thought the OP may be trolling, but it's even sadder than that, I think leaning towards he's serious. *SIGH*
  #92  
Old 06-19-2019, 11:17 PM
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My dear fellow posters:

All of the arguments in this thread have been given befre in previous threads, and none of them, no matter how cogent, have satisfied the OP nor relieved his/her apparent anxiety. Not one. Noting this, many Dopers have urged the OP to get psychiatric help. That has also had no effect.

Perhaps engaging with the OP enables or exacerbates whatever is really going on here. Something to consider, perhaps.

Best wishes to all.
+++++++! to THIS!

At one point I thought the OP may be trolling, but it's even sadder than that, I think leaning towards he's serious. *SIGH*
  #93  
Old 06-20-2019, 04:48 AM
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+++++++! to THIS!

At one point I thought the OP may be trolling, but it's even sadder than that, I think leaning towards he's serious. *SIGH*
A point worth repeating?
  #94  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:12 AM
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+++++++! to THIS!

At one point I thought the OP may be trolling, but it's even sadder than that, I think leaning towards he's serious. *SIGH*
Except it isn’t true. The problem is with the claims themselves and their truth value.

It doesn’t help that the people who say such things appear better off than most, which to me makes it seem like they are right. That to get rid of your suffering and depression you need to let go of desire. That dreams and wishes don’t last when you achieve them and you suffer when they fail or aren’t realized. Which means that it is essentially making my drives and wants sound pointless and that one must follow them to be happy.

I can guess that some people are happy without this stuff, but for how long? The idea here is that these people who say this stuff seem to have a different “better” level of happy than what we do, because they let go.

Personally I think life is for living and experiencing and doing. Spending all that time n contemplation and meditation just to end up spending the rest of your data in such tranquility seems like a waste of time to me. There is little difference between that and suicide to me. Without desires and drives it’s not that different from death.
  #95  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
My dear fellow posters:

All of the arguments in this thread have been given befre in previous threads, and none of them, no matter how cogent, have satisfied the OP nor relieved his/her apparent anxiety. Not one. Noting this, many Dopers have urged the OP to get psychiatric help. That has also had no effect.

Perhaps engaging with the OP enables or exacerbates whatever is really going on here. Something to consider, perhaps.

Best wishes to all.
Excerpt the replies here aren’t any of that. They don’t address the claims that I shared or offer any counter points to them. Psychiatric help won’t apply here.
  #96  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:16 AM
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Personally I think life is for living and experiencing and doing. Spending all that time n contemplation and meditation just to end up spending the rest of your data in such tranquility seems like a waste of time to me.
Seems like you have it figured out.

Personally, I don't spend any time in contemplation or mediation.
  #97  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:49 PM
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I can guess that some people are happy without this stuff, but for how long?
Let’s find out!

You say you “think life is for living and experiencing and doing.” So — try that, if you figure it’ll work, and see if you can be “happy without this stuff”. Just, y’know, see if it’s so, and if it’s sustainable, and for how long; and if the numbers don’t work, then, sure, maybe try your hand at that desirelessness thing, I guess.

But if it works? If you’re living and experiencing and doing and also getting a big fine share of happiness along the way while you’re in the ‘desiring’ business? If the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and, cousin, business is a-boomin’?

That’s my whole point: first you run the experiment, and then you pencil the words "Yes, very true" into the margin of some book on Kant, or whatever.
  #98  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:58 PM
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Let’s find out!

You say you “think life is for living and experiencing and doing.” So — try that, if you figure it’ll work, and see if you can be “happy without this stuff”. Just, y’know, see if it’s so, and if it’s sustainable, and for how long; and if the numbers don’t work, then, sure, maybe try your hand at that desirelessness thing, I guess.

But if it works? If you’re living and experiencing and doing and also getting a big fine share of happiness along the way while you’re in the ‘desiring’ business? If the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and, cousin, business is a-boomin’?

That’s my whole point: first you run the experiment, and then you pencil the words "Yes, very true" into the margin of some book on Kant, or whatever.
The problem is that I am afraid of them being right, that every time A desire of mine goes unfulfilled and I get sad it just proves their point and that I should rid myself of desires.
  #99  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:36 AM
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The problem is that I am afraid of them being right, that every time A desire of mine goes unfulfilled and I get sad it just proves their point and that I should rid myself of desires.
Have you tried splitting the difference?

Let’s say you can go through life with lots of big desires that often go unfulfilled, a process which — as you say — sure does leave you sad. Okay. Let’s also say one can sidestep that problem by — as you say — ridding yourself of desires.

Is there an in-between option? Can you, like, moderate your desires? Get them down to a manageable level, to where you’re (a) still driven to accomplish stuff while living and doing and experiencing and all those things you were just saying, but (b) not by repeatedly working yourself up into some kind of fever pitch of giddy anticipation before routinely sinking back down into negativity?

If you’re like unto someone who drinks too much, and you think teetotalers may be on to something — well, hey, maybe that works for them, and maybe swearing it off could work for you; I don’t know. But if you’re like a guy who drinks too much, and who can emulate those who drink in moderation, maybe that could work?
  #100  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:04 AM
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I am only qualified here by virtue of actually 'doing' Buddhism rather than thinking about it. I spent several years living in a Buddhist practice center. I did this mainly because I was miserable and was filled with self-loathing. There were plenty of people like me there. Neither Buddhist philosophy nor practice helped me find personal happiness. Growing up did. It took awhile.

Your problem has nothing whatsoever to do with Buddhism. You just are using it to fuck with your own mind and make yourself miserable. If you were unaware of its existence you would find and use something else for the same purpose.

Buddhist philosophy is about seeing the world the way it actually is. You are failing Buddhism 101, because you are NOT seeing the world the way it really is, you are using your incorrect, shallow, cherry-picked ideas about it to create your own personal nihilistic fantasy of what Buddhism is. If you really wanted to understand, you would actually PRACTICE Buddhism, which is the only way to understand it. The only only only only way. Did I say it was the only way? It is. Whatever you think you know about Buddhism is completely wrong. Bet on it. Nor can it be explained in words.

Nothing is clearer than your intention to keep on doing exactly what you are doing now, which is self-destructive and hard to watch even from this distance.
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